3.5 lowest MT access

[stenver]

How can kobold access MT as early as possible.

Sorcerer/cleric

goal is to get sorc1/cleric3/MT. Not sorc2/cleric3/MT

Loredrake sub level gives +2 sorcerer level, but its not enough, to get sorc1/MT

GOAL:
Loredrake Kobold
Sorc1/Cleric3/MT

Help

[Arakune]

How can kobold access MT as early as possible.

Sorcerer/cleric

goal is to get sorc1/cleric3/MT. Not sorc2/cleric3/MT

Loredrake sub level gives +2 sorcerer level, but its not enough, to get sorc1/MT

GOAL:
Loredrake Kobold
Sorc1/Cleric3/MT

Help

How much cheese do you want sir?

[nedz]

Is Precocious Apprentice an acceptible solution ? Or there are more cheesy alternatives.

[2xMachina]

Cleric 3.

Draconic Reservoir -> Greater Dragonic Ritual = +1 Sorc lvl

A total of +3 sorc lvl.

So, Cleric 3/Sorc1/MT+

Or, more cheese (but better). White Dragonspawn. +1LA +1Sorc lvl. Buyoff LA for a +4 Sorc total

Cleric 3/MT+. Now, look for something to do for lvl 14 to 20.

[Heliomance]

White Dragonspawn at +1 LA means you're a thrall to the dragon that made you. You want free will, you're gonna have to suck up +3 LA.

[stenver]

Cheese is fine

Buyoff is not allowed unfortunately

Machima x2, you are forgetting that Greater Dragonic Ritual can be done at level 6. Thats too late, unfortunately.

[2xMachina]

Dragonwrought. I'm a Dragon too. With White Heritage.

I'm my own Thrall.

[stenver]

But still, you are LA+1

That(basically) makes sorc2/cleric3/MT

Or LA+1/Sorc1/Cleric3/MT

The thing is, we are starting at level 5. And we would like to be MT at that time

[Thrice Dead Cat]

This uses wizard and archivist, admittedly, but with a few extra workings, sorcerer/cleric should also be kosher.

Wizard 1/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 10/whatever 8, using Sanctum spell to meet the spell requirements, and Inspire Greatness with Psychic Reformation to shuffle around your skill points with your floating HD to meet the skill requirements.

[stenver]

Omg, so sick. Thanks for the suggestion.

But there is no way to get sorc1/cleric3/MT with kobold then?

[2xMachina]

Hmm, Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten?

2 lvl 1 slot to cast lvl 2 slot.

Heighten causes your lvl 1 spell to turn into a lvl 2 spell.

Retrain Heighten later when you learn lvl 2 spells.

White Dragonspawn is still great. +2Dex/Con, Natural armor, attacks, fly speed ON TOP of 1 Sorc lvl? Sign me up.

EDIT: Huh, there's no class limit on Versatile Spellcaster.

LA+1/Sorc1/Cleric1/MT2 would work even. Very cheesy though.
ECL5

Effective Sorc lvl: 6
Effective Cleric lvl: 3

At lvl 6,

Effective Sorc lvl: 8
Effective Cleric lvl: 4

Focus on Sorc after you run out of MT lvls. Try Sandshaper. Lose 1 Sorc lvl, get more spells known. Feat: Arcane Preparation and get into Mage of the Arcane Order. Your spells progress as Wizard, with Cleric casting

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Omg, so sick. Thanks for the suggestion.

But there is no way to get sorc1/cleric3/MT with kobold then?

Alternative Source Spell (some dragon) and/or Southern Magician (I want to say Shining South) allow you to count one type of spell as the other. So, arcane spells can be divine and vice versa. However, I do not have either source on hand, and I don't recall the pre-reqs.

[QuantumSteve]

Wouldn't good ol' Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell work? Heck nothing in Versatile Spellcaster says you can only use it on spontaneous spells, only that you have to have the ability to cast them. So you can enter with Sor1/Clr2.

[stenver]

It actually says you have to KNOW it. But thank you all! nice trick, very cheesy, i love it, gonna be a fun game.

It will be
Cloistere Cleric2/Sorc1/MT

Great help, thanks guys.

[2xMachina]

Use the normal+domain slot to fuel it?

Cleric 1 should be enough.

And White Dragonspawn is much better than Sorc1. It's Sorc 1, with more benefits. (Just less HD and save)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Get the Spellhoarding disorder/template from Dragon 313, it gives Int +2, Wis -4, +5 on Spellcraft checks, Scribe Scroll and Eschew Materials for free, and it automatically replaces any Sorcerer spellcasting ability for Wizard spellcasting of equal level. You get to write your spells on your scales instead of on pages of a book, and you can lose a scribed spell as payment for many new abilities, such as in place of a costly component or xp cost, or to cast it as though from a scroll. Your pool of spells is limited only by how much time you wish to spend scribing them, since you can put the same spells on multiple scales to be used to fuel those abilities.

That way your Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer 1 casts as a 3rd level Wizard, thus he gets 2nd level spells with no additional help. Even better, use the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) variant (d8 HP and other benefits) along with the Stalwart Sorcerer variant from Complete Mage (+2 HP/level and other benefits), both of which severely hinder your sorcerer spells known and spells/day, but then your sorcerer spellcasting is traded out for Wizard spellcasting of equal level and there's no drawback. As for the Wisdom penalty, consider using Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) in place of Cleric. That way all of your spellcasting will be Int-based, and you may even be able to get your DM to let you put your divine spells on your scales as well, instead of in a book. You could go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 1/ Archivist 3/ MT, or you could even use more cheese to only need two Archivist levels starting out.

[Divide by Zero]

And White Dragonspawn is much better than Sorc1. It's Sorc 1, with more benefits. (Just less HD and save)

And no skill points, so you still have to burn another level somewhere to meet the requirements.

[Vizzerdrix]

Ardent-1/ Cloistered Cleric-1/ Sorc-1 /MT-10/ Anything else-7

You'll have to do at lease 3 base class levels to meet the skill requirements.

Versatile Spell caster+ Heighten will get you in, and Ardent+ Practice Manifester will let you manifest as a full Ardent until level 4 (to help smooth out your beginning)

[Doc Roc]

It looks like you're trying to build a theurge!
Would you like help with that?

Suggestions:
Precocious Apprentice
Jacob's Ladder


Sanctum Spell[Feat, Complete Arcane] + Dragonsblood Pool[Magical Location, Complete Mage] = 3rd level slot

What's that? No Flaws?
That's fine, get one of those feats from taint!

End:
Sorcerer 1/Cleric || Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge xxxx
But really I recommend not splitting your casting attrib.
I'd rather do cerebremancer or psychic theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b), honestly.

[stenver]

We talked about it and white dragonspawn simply wasnt for my friend taste. He said it wouldnt fit into the story

And besides, you need at least 6 skillpoints for entry, cant handle that before level 3 without extreme cheese.

Also, he specifically wanted to play a sorcerer, not a wizard. More of a flavor thing.

Thank you again all.

You all have been most helpful, especially Machina.

[sofawall]

Well, the absolute lowest entry is Favoured Soul 1, but we don't like to talk about that.

Can't be done at character creation anyway, you have to start as a level one and work some wealth loops.

[stenver]

haha, i guess this is something completely off the chart. I believe it is just too much for me anyway

[mucat]

If these builds are all theoretical optimization exercises done for the hell of it because it's fun, the great. If we're talking about how to get early entry to MT in an actual campaign, you ask the DM, "Hey, I want to play a mystic theurge, but they're underpowered that I'm afraid I won't have much to controibute to the group. Can we rewrite the requirements for earlier entry?"

At which point he/she either says "You're right; let's rewrite 'em" or "No, I think Arcane 3/ Divine 3 is the right prerequisite for that class."

I can't imagine a DM saying "You can do it, but only if you come up with some convoluted mess of a build which, if you squint just right and interpret the wording in the right light, makes it possible by RAW." How does that make for a better campaign?

[Akal Saris]

Well, the absolute lowest entry is Favoured Soul 1, but we don't like to talk about that.

Can't be done at character creation anyway, you have to start as a level one and work some wealth loops.

I can see how you could use locations or items to cheese spell-casting, but how do the wealth loops get around the 6 skill ranks in 2 skills requirements?

[sreservoir]

possibly inspire greatness + psyref?

[2xMachina]

If these builds are all theoretical optimization exercises done for the hell of it because it's fun, the great. If we're talking about how to get early entry to MT in an actual campaign, you ask the DM, "Hey, I want to play a mystic theurge, but they're underpowered that I'm afraid I won't have much to controibute to the group. Can we rewrite the requirements for earlier entry?"

At which point he/she either says "You're right; let's rewrite 'em" or "No, I think Arcane 3/ Divine 3 is the right prerequisite for that class."

I can't imagine a DM saying "You can do it, but only if you come up with some convoluted mess of a build which, if you squint just right and interpret the wording in the right light, makes it possible by RAW." How does that make for a better campaign?

Heh, for me it's part of the game. Can you do unintended things by mixing things? If yes, WHEE!

Homebrew is ok, but doesn't have the satisfaction of actually using WoTC 3.5 rules.

[Optimystik]

Homebrew is ok, but doesn't have the satisfaction of actually using WoTC 3.5 rules.

This. Of course the DM can handwave anything hes okay with, but many of us consider that a copout and would rather keep our minds engaged.

Besides, blowing feats on Precocious Apprentice, Improved Krau etc. are a tradeoff for the power of theurging early. It's a built-in balancing tool.

[Arakune]

This. Of course the DM can handwave anything hes okay with, but many of us consider that a copout and would rather keep our minds engaged.

Besides, blowing feats on Precocious Apprentice, Improved Krau etc. are a tradeoff for the power of theurging early. It's a built-in balancing tool.

In the beginning at least. You trade meta-magic and DMM for another type of spell levels. What do you want more? Uber orb/enervation of doom or 9th level spells in Both arcane AND divine at the same time?

[Optimystik]

In the beginning at least. You trade meta-magic and DMM for another type of spell levels. What do you want more? Uber orb/enervation of doom or 9th level spells in Both arcane AND divine at the same time?

I want whatever my character concept is going with.
MT has a lot of mileage, sure, but it has no more actions than a straight wizard or cleric. If you're in a campaign with a high number of encounters/day then having that much mystic juice might be important, but if not then you can do just as well if not better with another PrC, especially one that (a) has actual class features and (b) isn't MAD.

So MT does not automatically equal more power than straight wizard or straight cleric or straight archivist.

Personally when I theurge, I prefer to combine different systems entirely - Noctumancer, Soul Caster, Psychic Theurge, Eldritch Disciple etc.

[Seatbelt]

I'm trying to make a wizard/ur priest/MT NPC at ECL 15. This character worships Atropus from the Elder Evils handbook and she's supposed to be the evil person running the gambit to get the PCs to start the end of the world for the Big Bad. They will be fighting and killing her but she needs to be devious.

The trouble is that I can't get around the fort save and still have wizard casting and 9th level divine spells. Can anyone help?

[2xMachina]

Hmm, to get 9th divine by lvl15, you need to get into Ur-priest at 7...

Maybe a dip, but you'll lose CL.

[Seatbelt]

Yeah thats what it looks like. Can you give a suggestion on a class? A random fighter level doesn't hurt too much but I'm sure there are better options.

[dextercorvia]

The standard for that is Wiz5/Mindbender1/Ur1/MT9.

Edit: or SavageBard1/Wiz5/Ur9

[2xMachina]

Hmm, mindbender is tasty. No Cl lost. A bunch of skills needed though.

Also opens up Mindsight.

[dextercorvia]

Fortunately Mindbender gets bluff on in it's class skill list, so you only have to buy 4 ranks of that cross-class. The rest is fairly standard stuff.

Edits. I see, I had forgotten Mindbender required so many cross-class skills. Yeah that is tight. I think that is going to require a 20 in Int.

Edit2

28 skill points (in class) required for Ur Priest beyond Mindbender

16 cross-class ranks for an additional 32. That is 60 skill points total.

Wizard and mindbender are both 2+Int, so that is 63 for a 20 Int character. Just barely squeezes in.

[Zovc]

Beguiler 1 with Versatile Spellcaster can cast 2nd level spells, right? That might be a good place to start.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah beguiler gets in easy enough.

I just remembered the reason for the other way though

SavageBard5/Urpriest1/MT4/SublimeChord1/MT+5/Dweomerkeeper4

Edit: Or

SavageBard1/Sorcerer4/Finish

If you want more spellcasting at early/mid levels, but it will be hard to get enough perform crossclass without an Int bonus.

[Zovc]

Yeah beguiler gets in easy enough.

I guess you could do the same thing with a Warmage or a Dread Necromancer (I think), if you wanted to use Charisma... although I don't know why you would want to do that.

[dextercorvia]

Warmage is out. They get 2+int skill points and a list that is worse than the fighter's.

[Zovc]

Warmage is out. They get 2+int skill points and a list that is worse than the fighter's.

Oh, if skills matter (sorry, I skimmed through the entire thread), let me turn my suggestion back to Beguiler: you have reason to invest in intelligence, a feat gets you 2nd-level spells at level 1, and you have a lot of skills/level and a big skill list.

[Lord of Syntax]

You can get in with cross class skills as a Sorcerer 3. That's right no divine caster levels AT ALL! This means that each MT level counts as 2 sorcerer levels.
How? In the same book as Loredrake there are two other good ones: Lightkeeper which gives you cleric spells and spells from the Glory, Law, Sun, and War domains, and Fortune's Fang, which can cast cleric spells and spells from the Feast, Luck, and Trickery domains. If you have a spell known that is not a Sorc/Wiz spell from this, it is divine, thus qualifying you for MT.

[PhoenixRivers]

Cloistered Cleric 1.

Rituals to make yourself +1 Sorceror level.

Perform checks to make money.

Hire a level 9 bard to give you +2 HD through Inspire Greatness.

Hire a level 7 psion to manifest psychic reformation on you. Shift points to relevant skills for Mystic Theurge.

Level 2: Mystic Theurge.

[Zovc]

You can get in with cross class skills as a Sorcerer 3. That's right no divine caster levels AT ALL! This means that each MT level counts as 2 sorcerer levels.
How? In the same book as Loredrake there are two other good ones: Lightkeeper which gives you cleric spells and spells from the Glory, Law, Sun, and War domains, and Fortune's Fang, which can cast cleric spells and spells from the Feast, Luck, and Trickery domains. If you have a spell known that is not a Sorc/Wiz spell from this, it is divine, thus qualifying you for MT.

That sounds fishy. Can you give me some page numbers?

[Zovc]

Yeah, upon investigation, you cast those spells as arcane spells.

[PhoenixRivers]

My method, at level 11, will have you casting as a level 11 cleric and a level 11 sorceror.

You'll need Sanctum Spell, of course, but that's not so bad. From there, go into another dual progression PrC. At this point, True necromancer would get you double 9's by level 20. (Sorceror 18, Cleric 18)

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Same simultaneous solutions, sir (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7061.0)