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Millikin_Erreene
2006-06-14, 11:32 PM
This made the news.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060614/ennew_afp/afpentertainmentusbookscomicsspiderman;_ylt=Av8IRZ gQMG8bGsQ0xMpC51.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYw M5NjQ-

Saithis Bladewing
2006-06-14, 11:39 PM
OMG U RUINED IT FOR ME!!1!!11!111

Foeofthelance
2006-06-15, 12:02 AM
I sort of saw this coming, though I will admit to mild surprise about reading about it in today's New York Post.

The Vorpal Tribble
2006-06-15, 12:07 AM
Ok, so why exactly was there a need to reveal himself? Now he won't even need the costume.

TruenuffTrey
2006-06-15, 12:16 AM
I have to admit: Your friendly neighborhood "artistformerlyknownasSpiderman" doesn't quite have the same ring to it. :P

Foeofthelance
2006-06-15, 12:18 AM
Depends. How much does the board know about Civil War, and how much am I allowed to give away?

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-15, 12:36 AM
He's in favor of a law saying that superheros have to give up anonymity, so he did.

So much for the whole "If your villains know your identity, they can come after your loved ones" huh spiderman?

Friggin' dork. Can't wait till Mary Jane/May/Random other family member, gets attacked AGAIN because of this.

A_Dark_Danish
2006-06-15, 12:59 AM
My life just stopped in shock. :o

Krytha
2006-06-15, 01:04 AM
Spiderman is an attention whore.

Holy_Knight
2006-06-15, 01:40 AM
So much for the whole "If your villains know your identity, they can come after your loved ones" huh spiderman?

Friggin' dork. *Can't wait till Mary Jane/May/Random other family member, gets attacked AGAIN because of this.
I'm with you, Merlin. That's like the cardinal law of superheroism.

Also, I have to disagree that this is arguably "the most shocking event in comic book history", even if it is notable.

Gnorosch
2006-06-15, 02:18 AM
Now, what I do not understand - Captain America was kind of "created" by the US Army, so the government should already know his true identity... ???

For Spiderman, there is probably no difference - the villains constantly figured out his true identity. They just save some time before being brought to justice.

KayJay
2006-06-15, 02:43 AM
At some point, I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to convince everyone it's all an elaborate scam, like Iron Man has been able to. I don't think this'll have much impact once it blows over though- not many masked heroes will out their identity to side with Iron Man, it'll be those heroes that don't really care if their identity is revealed that do this. So once it all blows over, things'll stay pretty much the same in this respect-it won't all be like Spiderman's outing.

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-15, 02:49 AM
At some point, I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to convince everyone it's all an elaborate scam, like Iron Man has been able to. I don't think this'll have much impact once it blows over though- not many masked heroes will out their identity to side with Iron Man, it'll be those heroes that don't really care if their identity is revealed that do this. So once it all blows over, things'll stay pretty much the same in this respect-it won't all be like Spiderman's outing.


Actually I'm fairly certain it'll just get retconned away since this is Marvel and change never means anything significant.

Oh look, Bucky is back ::)

sun_tzu
2006-06-15, 06:59 AM
Actually I'm fairly certain it'll just get retconned away since this is Marvel and change never means anything significant.

Oh look, Bucky is back ::)

After so many years, Bucky returning probably counts as changing something significant.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-06-15, 11:43 AM
From everything I know of Spiderman, this is pretty much just a timesaver. His secret identity has been revealed so many times it's getting a little ridiculous...

And then there's the Movie and Ultimate universes, where it's basically common knowledge by now.

Ar-Sakal
2006-06-15, 11:55 AM
I wonder if Jameson is going to fire Parker now that he knows why the guy gets the best photo shoots of Spiderman. Forget the villians attacking his family, his boss is going to chew Parker alive...

Furin_Mirado
2006-06-15, 12:12 PM
When I read that I was thinking the same thing a lot of you seem to be. "Wow, now the villains will come after Peter's family and friends...oh wait, they do that anyway..." :D

Millikin_Erreene
2006-06-15, 12:40 PM
"Now, what I do not understand - Captain America was kind of "created" by the US Army, so the government should already know his true identity..."

Yes, the U. S. government knows that Steve Rogers is Capt. America, your average American does NOT know that. *

Spoiler: *This link summarizes the events that led up to the law, major supporters and opposition to the law, the in-comic derivatives (mainly the Mutant Registration Act and Canadian Super-Powers Registration Act), possible impact it will have in upcoming comics, and real-world parallels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_Acts_(comics)



" His secret identity has been revealed so many times it's getting a little ridiculous..."

It's never been publicly revealed. *And he is the first one to consciously choose to reveal his real identity as opposed to having his identity involuntarily plastered all over every newspaper and television news report or a required stipulation for government backing.


"Can't wait till Mary Jane/May/Random other family member, gets attacked AGAIN because of this."


His living relatives, Mary Jane and Aunt May, currently live with the Avengers, so that kind of makes the idea of someone visiting retribution on his family members extremely unlikely. *I wonder though if he'll have second thoughts about it when he gets thrown out of the Avengers or gets bored/has a disagreement with the leadership and leaves them again. *
I kind of understand the mindset by which most of the people who chose to support or oppose the law came to their stance, except Peter Parker. *He literally makes his living relying on the protection of anonymity for fear of retribution granted by the First Amendment, so I find his stance extremely hypocritical.

Ing
2006-06-15, 12:47 PM
we all know whats gonna happen now

someone's gonna sue Parker for some **** he did as spiderman

and i'll bet tacos to wallnuts Norman Osborn will be funding the legal team agianst him.

The Glyphstone
2006-06-15, 12:48 PM
That link above doens't lead anywhere...what are the REgistration Acts again?

storybookknight
2006-06-15, 12:48 PM
It is a shocker, though.

If by shocker, one means that the people working for Marvel these days have a tenuous grasp, at best, on the roots of the Spider-Man character...

Millikin_Erreene
2006-06-15, 12:59 PM
"That link above doens't lead anywhere...what are the REgistration Acts again? "

Do a Yahoo Search for Civil War Marvel Comics and you will find the wiki link.

Ing
2006-06-15, 01:00 PM
It is a shocker, though.

If by shocker, one means that the people working for Marvel these days have a tenuous grasp, at best, on the roots of the Spider-Man character...

wait...shocker was in this story line too??? now its just contrived

Were-Sandwich
2006-06-15, 01:42 PM
I think he did the right thing. If I had ultimate cosmic power and wanted to fight crime (for some unknown deus-ex-machina reason), I would just do it as me, not some dude in a costume.
Anyway, if someone comes after my family, I've got ultimate cosmic power biatch

Nerd-o-rama
2006-06-15, 01:50 PM
Spidey's hardly got Ultimate Cosmic Power, though. How many of his loved ones have died at least once?

Ing
2006-06-15, 03:08 PM
all have seemingly died at least once...all have come back in some form or another.

because no one dies in comic books



EVER

*Bucky, Uncle Ben, Gene Gray, magneto, Mary Jane, Aunt May, Cyclopse, COllosus, Magneto, Prof. X, Norman Osborn, Hobgoblin, Kingpin, Elektra, and Venom all form a chorus line kicking their legs up high and happily singing "I am not yet dead" from SPAMALOT


Sammy Squid boy scratches at the top of his coffin "Uh guys can i come out now?"

X-men: "NO! we're making sure at least one person in this Fricking universe stays dead and sorry but its gotta be you!"

Sammy: "oooooooooooooooooh :("

Tiberian
2006-06-15, 03:27 PM
all have seemingly died at least once...all have come back in some form or another.

because no one dies in comic books



EVER


Three people: Gwen Stacey, Karen Page,and Captain Mar-vell.

GnollLord
2006-06-15, 05:32 PM
Don't forget Uncle Ben

Zzarchov
2006-06-15, 06:24 PM
Alls that means is they are dead..FOR NOW.


Im not surprised, It was only a matter of time before Marvel ripped off "the incredibles" :P

EricP
2006-06-15, 06:27 PM
I concur. Marvel's current "brain-trust" is ruining good characters left and right. First the new Avengers, what a joke! But what they have done to Spiderman is unforgivable. Let me list them (SPOILERS)

1. His powers are magical? WTF? A "magic" spider bit him and now he is evolving into even greater powers.

2. His role within the new Avengers. First off, joining a group like that, something Spiderman would never do.

3. That new lame suit with the spider limbs. What is this, Iron Spider? At least in the Civil War pic, he was wearing the REAL suit when he made the announcement.

4. #3 is caused by #2 and this whole "let's make Spiderman Iron Man's prodigy or successor"

5. And now they've outed him to sell a mini-series that should have been able to stand on its own. Just when I thought they couldn't screw with Peter any more than they have, they pull this kind of stuff. I am still hoping that they reboot the Marvel Universe, like the Ultimate series and get rid of this crap.

CelestialStick
2006-06-15, 06:45 PM
This made the news.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060614/ennew_afp/afpentertainmentusbookscomicsspiderman;_ylt=Av8IRZ gQMG8bGsQ0xMpC51.s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYw M5NjQ-
Wow! I think this is fascinating. I love the notion of superheroes split on the issue and government as always trying to regulate and control everything.



I'm with you, Merlin. That's like the cardinal law of superheroism.

Also, I have to disagree that this is arguably "the most shocking event in comic book history", even if it is notable.
What do you find the most shocking?

The secret identity does seem to be the cardinal rule of superheroes; it started with the first modern superhero, Superman, and has persisted as the cardinal rule throughout superherodom for the next 7 decades.



I wonder if Jameson is going to fire Parker now that he knows why the guy gets the best photo shoots of Spiderman. Forget the villians attacking his family, his boss is going to chew Parker alive...
Heh. I was wondering about that myself. The Jameson I know from the old animated series and the movies really hated Spiderman. Of course he kind of hates everyone, but especially Spiderman.


we all know whats gonna happen now

someone's gonna sue Parker for some **** he did as spiderman
Well that would be par for the course in the real world. It reminds me of the headline "Superman Says 'Screw You" World" in Superman: The Quest for Peace after he refuses the UN's request to rid the world of all nuclear weapons. "What have you done for me lately?" :D


"Now, what I do not understand - Captain America was kind of "created" by the US Army, so the government should already know his true identity..."

Yes, the U. S. government knows that Steve Rogers is Capt. America, your average American does NOT know that.

Spoiler: This link summarizes the events that led up to the law, major supporters and opposition to the law, the in-comic derivatives (mainly the Mutant Registration Act and Canadian Super-Powers Registration Act), possible impact it will have in upcoming comics, and real-world parallels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration_Acts_(comics)



" His secret identity has been revealed so many times it's getting a little ridiculous..."

It's never been publicly revealed. And he is the first one to consciously choose to reveal his real identity as opposed to having his identity involuntarily plastered all over every newspaper and television news report or a required stipulation for government backing.


"Can't wait till Mary Jane/May/Random other family member, gets attacked AGAIN because of this."


His living relatives, Mary Jane and Aunt May, currently live with the Avengers, so that kind of makes the idea of someone visiting retribution on his family members extremely unlikely. I wonder though if he'll have second thoughts about it when he gets thrown out of the Avengers or gets bored/has a disagreement with the leadership and leaves them again.
I kind of understand the mindset by which most of the people who chose to support or oppose the law came to their stance, except Peter Parker. He literally makes his living relying on the protection of anonymity for fear of retribution granted by the First Amendment, so I find his stance extremely hypocritical.


Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Registration Acts in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.

Incidentally, the First Amendment protects an individual's right to free speech and free press (along with other rights) and says nothing about anyone else's "right to know." There's no "right to know" protected by the constitution, and thus nothing ironic about Peter making his living at a newspaper while living in anonymity, at least nothing ironic with regard to rights. To the degree that the press turns everyone's private lives public, there is an irony that Peter makes his living there while replying on privacy to do his job as a superhero.

As for Captain America, it's certain that some part of the government knows his identity, but that doesn't mean that other parts or the public know.

Bruendor_Cavescout
2006-06-15, 10:03 PM
I kind of think Peter wasn't thinking this through very well, revealing himself on TV. The Spidey book before this week's Civil War has him talking with Aunt May and Mary Jane about this very moment, and they convince him to do it.

The problem I see there is that sure, two of the most important people in your life are alright with you revealing yourself to the world. What of everyone else you work with on a daily basis? Civil War began when a school blew up. Peter works at one. At best, he can count on being fired from this position. At worst, some other supervillain from his past (preferably a B-lister, just to drive the point home) comes and causes havoc in the school.

Hopefully, it will all be revealed that the Spidey we've seen the last few weeks has been a Life Model Decoy and Pete can go back to having his secret identity.

Devils_Advocate
2006-06-15, 10:15 PM
Correct Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super-Hero_Registration_Act)


Incidentally, the First Amendment protects an individual's right to free speech and free press (along with other rights) and says nothing about anyone else's "right to know." There's no "right to know" protected by the constitution, and thus nothing ironic about Peter making his living at a newspaper while living in anonymity, at least nothing ironic with regard to rights. To the degree that the press turns everyone's private lives public, there is an irony that Peter makes his living there while replying on privacy to do his job as a superhero.
But Millikin wan't talking about any "right to know". Just the opposite, in fact. Millikin was referring, unless I'm mistaken, to the fact that the First Amendment has been interpreted to say that journalists are allowed to report information from anonymous sources, without being forced to reveal those sources, under the theory that not allowing them to do so would have a "chilling effect" or something like that. It's held that this protection of anonymity is essential to a free press, and yet here Peter Parker - a reporter - is, coming out against anonymity. This is what is allegedly hypocritical (and implausible, or at least counterintuitive).

Alchemistmerlin
2006-06-15, 10:35 PM
After so many years, Bucky returning probably counts as changing something significant.

No, what it counts as is proving that nothing in comics is ever permanent, and death never means anything.

Oh and by the way

Uncle Ben is alive again too! And Jean gray is on her way for the 20th time I'm sure.

Ing
2006-06-15, 10:43 PM
Gwen Stacy came agack as a Clone
an alternative reality uncle Ben recently slipped over

i'm sure the others have returned or at least appeared to at some time.

edit: thank you Alchalmist Merlin for backing me up


comeon the chorus line idea is hillarious people!

Holy_Knight
2006-06-15, 11:02 PM
I think he did the right thing. If I had ultimate cosmic power and wanted to fight crime (for some unknown deus-ex-machina reason), I would just do it as me, not some dude in a costume.
Anyway, if someone comes after my family, I've got ultimate cosmic power biatch

Pride goeth before a fall, and in your case, the fall is the lifeless bodies of everyone you held dear.

Ing
2006-06-16, 12:40 AM
so incredibly stupid idea

once agian spiderman has evolved far too farther than what he started as whatever

razmafft1
2006-06-16, 02:06 AM
:o :o :o
...
Holy... holy crap...

He really...? Wow...

Anyway, now that my total and utter shock and awe is over, has anyone noticed that comics anymore are all starting to get grim and depressing again? It's like a recession into the Iron Age.

Malek
2006-06-16, 08:43 AM
*Bucky, Uncle Ben, Gene Gray, magneto, Mary Jane, Aunt May, Cyclopse, COllosus, Magneto, Prof. X, Norman Osborn, Hobgoblin, Kingpin, Elektra, and Venom
Doh. Those got killed? (ages since I've read any comic that isn't manga)

@Main topic - I'm not really that shocked... not after I've heard that Wolverine's "claws" suddenly became "natural part of his mutation" after all these years... Marvel starts getting worse and worse it seems... And boy did the drawings in spiderman got uuuuglyyyyyy....

WarriorTribble
2006-06-16, 12:33 PM
I wonder though, is there anyone who can test Parker to confirm to the public (DNA testing, voice analysys, etc) that he is Spiderman, and not just a copycat?

Foeofthelance
2006-06-16, 10:59 PM
Wolverine's claws are officially part of his mutation, and apparently another member of his family had them, as in Origins one of the supporting cast remarks "Oh no, he has the devil hands too!" or some such.

Could Magneto or Jean Grey ever really die? Probablly not. Though I doubt Jean will be back for at least a year. And as far as Magneto is concernec, I stand by the Excalibur explanantion. Xorneto was a fraud kicked up by the Sublime drug. I'm sorry, despite his elitism, I can't see Magneto putting up a death camp, especially not after his own experiences. (Please tell me I haven't just triggered Godwin.) I much prefer the theory of him having hid out on Genosha. It fits the character better then getting high off of drugs.

Parker revealing his identity is a big deal, though he isn't the first. Iron Man beats him to it in Civil War: Frontline #1. Final spread is of Tony in the suit admitting to being an alchoholic. But Parker revealing his identity is probably the worse for him, as he doesn't have any major backer. Yes they live at the Aveneger Tower. But as Scarlet Witch and countless villains have proven, the home base is always a great target. If anything, this just puts them directly in the line of fire.

Cap's identity is known by the government, especially S.H.I.E.L.D. It will be interesting watching him go rogue on this.

I'm curious as to what people expect from the Civil War series?

Brett Wong
2006-06-17, 03:22 AM
wolvereans claws and adamantium body are killing him if he had normal bone (he used to have super hard bone claws) he would regen UBER FAST like he fell of a truck into a fire and then got ran over and he would get up like a minute after and be like ... oww

Ing
2006-06-17, 09:35 AM
to clarify the claws themselves are natural....they're part of his bone system

the metal claws come from having said bone system metalized...seemingly just to make him Magnetos bi-otch

the xorneto thing always seems kinda lazy...why would xorn diguise himself as magento...disguised as himself? hell a magneto clone woulda been a more acceptable answer

but yah i agree on the drugs and the Godwin stuff, very un magnetoish..

CelestialStick
2006-06-17, 07:56 PM
I wonder though, is there anyone who can test Parker to confirm to the public (DNA testing, voice analysys, etc) that he is Spiderman, and not just a copycat?

I'm not sure if DNA testing could distinguish between the original and a clone. Remember that the clone is grown from a cell with the original DNA. It's possible though that the voice analysis could work, as the voice is probably partly environmental and only partly genetic, but that's just a speculation on my part. Dental records could probably tell the two apart, as it's unlikely that the two would have had the exact same dental work.

Ing
2006-06-20, 09:44 PM
no a copy cat is a poser...or someone who imitates something they saw or heard about...not a clone

CelestialStick
2006-06-20, 10:32 PM
no a copy cat is a poser...or someone who imitates something they saw or heard about...not a clone
The term "copy cat" is loose enough to include a clone.

Steward
2006-06-21, 12:25 AM
I'm not sure if DNA testing could distinguish between the original and a clone. Remember that the clone is grown from a cell with the original DNA. It's possible though that the voice analysis could work, as the voice is probably partly environmental and only partly genetic, but that's just a speculation on my part. Dental records could probably tell the two apart, as it's unlikely that the two would have had the exact same dental work.

I think that the poster wants to know if anyone can prove that Peter Parker really is Spiderman instead of someone who is merely pretending to be Spiderman.

Ing
2006-06-21, 12:56 PM
well save for the fact that he can do whatever a spider can

but then agian Mystero made up a faux-spider and used him to cash in on Spiderman's fame, making a fortune off of spiderman merchandizing.... he was exposed and embarased Jonna....

honestly...i suspect next comic will just be a bunch of supervillians led by Doc Oct at spiderman's house... yes even those that are supposed to be dead come back for this final bout of vengence.

Beleriphon
2006-06-21, 04:58 PM
By all accounts the next bit in the series is a bunch of villains, like Dr Doom, coming out of the wood work and actaully attacking all of the supers that have publicly announced themselves. Peter is up front with quite the rogue's gallery, although others are bound for a beat down as well.

I expect this to get interesting since only the heros would comply with the registration act, so that leave masked villains that nobody can indentify and heros that are identified, capable of stopping the villains, and likely to get sued in the process. Just terrific.

For fun I'd love to see something like this happen in the DC universe. Boy would the stuff hit the fan when Bats refuses to take off the costume. Of course Bats is a moderately more complicated character that Parker.

CelestialStick
2006-06-21, 08:08 PM
I think that the poster wants to know if anyone can prove that Peter Parker really is Spiderman instead of someone who is merely pretending to be Spiderman.


Well as I recall, the imposter Spiderman was actually a clone of the original.

Tawkis
2006-06-21, 10:30 PM
Wow, I never knew, Peter Parker is Spider Man?

But I disagree that this move is being hypocritical. I think that this move is very much in line with Parker's "boy scout" persona. I also think that Superhero's also become "real" law enforcement agents in this storyline.

Also IIRC Iron Man's identity has been known for quite some time.

At the end of the day, this storyline makes me want to start reading comic books again and people are talking about comics. Really good move by Marvel.

CelestialStick
2006-06-21, 10:32 PM
Wow, I never knew, Peter Parker is Spider Man?

But I disagree that this move is being hypocritical. I think that this move is very much in line with Parker's "boy scout" persona. I also think that Superhero's also become "real" law enforcement agents in this storyline.

Also IIRC Iron Man's identity has been known for quite some time.

At the end of the day, this storyline makes me want to start reading comic books again and people are talking about comics. Really good move by Marvel.
The potrayal of government as paranoid and controlling is very compelling too.

Ing
2006-06-21, 10:49 PM
nope Mystero's wasn't a clone...it was just "a guy"

the Jackle's spiderman which became Ben Parker was a clone...a universally dispised clone.

Falkus
2006-06-22, 09:59 AM
Pride goeth before a fall, and in your case, the fall is the lifeless bodies of everyone you held dear.

You know, real heroes, police officers, have to fight crime without the benefit of anonymity. Why should superheros be allowed to conceal their identity when people far more integral to the survival of society can't?

OldFart
2006-06-22, 10:26 AM
I wonder if Jameson is going to fire Parker now that he knows why the guy gets the best photo shoots of Spiderman. Forget the villians attacking his family, his boss is going to chew Parker alive...


Heh. I was wondering about that myself. *The Jameson I know from the old animated series and the movies really hated Spiderman. Of course he kind of hates everyone, but especially Spiderman.


IIRC, One of JJJ's original beefs with Spider-man is that he hid his identity behind a mask. So this revelation would more likely sit well with him.

I'm shocked, but I can see spider-man doing this. For him, it's all about the responsibility that comes with power. So this could be seen from his perspective as reponsible behavior.

Unlike the incredibly irresponsible behavior shown by those with the power to be Marvel writers... Uncle Ben, magical origins to his powers, good frickin' grief !!

Tokeloshe
2006-06-22, 04:24 PM
The move is basically bad story-telling. It stinks of Marvel running out of ideas and needing to reboot the universe.

CelestialStick
2006-06-22, 06:49 PM
The move is basically bad story-telling. It stinks of Marvel running out of ideas and needing to reboot the universe.

On the contrary, I can easily see the media calling for revelation of the identities of these vigilantes and the government trying to regulate them to death.

Tiberian
2006-07-09, 03:47 AM
IIRC, One of JJJ's original beefs with Spider-man is that he hid his identity behind a mask. So this revelation would more likely sit well with him.

I'm shocked, but I can see spider-man doing this. For him, it's all about the responsibility that comes with power. So this could be seen from his perspective as reponsible behavior.

Unlike the incredibly irresponsible behavior shown by those with the power to be Marvel writers... Uncle Ben, magical origins to his powers, good frickin' grief !! *



Jameson sues Parker for something of around 5 million dollars for fraud.

Why not magical origins? *Magic has always been prevalent in the Marvel U, and why can't the radioactive spiderbite been prompted by magical forces. *See the lie Mysterio told Daredevil, while a lie, it made sense. *There are forces putting certain people in certain situations in order to better humanity. *Because really, radiation kills or disfigures, it does not beneficially mutate. **So, it makes for a more realistic (huh?) origin still fitting with the original*


Next up, Uncle Ben isn't back from the dead: alt universe that will be put back.

Captain Marr-vell stayed dead. *'Nuff Said.

I wonder if Daredevil being outed caused this big of a huff on the forums. *Actually, CS, you should check out some of Bendis's run on Daredevil, that story I just mentioned. *His identity was uncovered and now he is in jail for obstruction of justice *read being Daredevil*.

Ing
2006-07-09, 10:14 AM
No not Daredevil cause he wasn't stupid enough to out himself. Humorously when that did happen Spiderman thanked DD for reminding him why he will never take off his mask

Ulicus
2006-07-09, 01:19 PM
You know, real heroes, police officers, have to fight crime without the benefit of anonymity. Why should superheros be allowed to conceal their identity when people far more integral to the survival of society can't?

That's the argument of those who are pro-registration - and it's what Parker gets blasted with when he brings up the "what if they want to protect their friends and family?" argument to a hearing (this is before he's revealed his identity, obviously).

There are good and bad points on both sides... though in a discussion about the Marvel universe, saying that police officers are "far more integral to the survival of society" than superheroes is a little ridiculous...

616 police officers cannot deal with the biggest 616 threats to society. Superheroes can... well, usually anyway.

Beleriphon
2006-07-09, 01:39 PM
You know, real heroes, police officers, have to fight crime without the benefit of anonymity. Why should superheros be allowed to conceal their identity when people far more integral to the survival of society can't?

Because they don't super powered nut jobs to fight. As pointed out already your average cop can't stop Venom, let alone somebody like Dr Doom. Some heros require annonymity because if they didn't have it super villains would be coming after them specifically if they escape prison.

The other way to think of it is from DCs perspective. Would Batman be any where near as terrifying to most criminals if they all knew that he was really Bruce Wayne under that cowl?

Finwe
2006-07-09, 03:59 PM
The other way to think of it is from DCs perspective. Would Batman be any where near as terrifying to most criminals if they all knew that he was really Bruce Wayne under that cowl?


I think that Wayne Enterprises would become much more terrifying to competing companies if they knew that Bruce was Batman, not the other way around.

Edit - it would also help to severely cut down any white-collar crime that may be going on under Bruce's nose.

Beleriphon
2006-07-09, 04:19 PM
Edit - it would also help to severely cut down any white-collar crime that may be going on under Bruce's nose.

Perhaps, but Wayne Enterprises has always been shown an ethical business. Bruce has always taken a limited roll in the business. Generally speaking people like Lucius Fox run Wayne Enterprises.

As for the whole Marvel thing you might be best to compare character like Tony Stark or Reed Richards who are known as their superhero identities. Most characters that are well known as both superhero and regular person are very wealthy. They can afford the extra security needed to keep themselves and their loved ones safe. Parker really can't, although he has powerful friends.

Tiberian
2006-07-09, 04:39 PM
So, Reed finally got out of debt? Because in the first issue of 4, they were in so much debt they were kicked out of their house.

Beleriphon
2006-07-09, 06:47 PM
So, Reed finally got out of debt? Because in the first issue of 4, they were in so much debt they were kicked out of their house.


Currently I have no idea, but he was stupidly wealthy.

CelestialStick
2006-07-10, 02:56 AM
Perhaps, but Wayne Enterprises has always been shown an ethical business. Bruce has always taken a limited roll in the business. Generally speaking people like Lucius Fox run Wayne Enterprises.

As for the whole Marvel thing you might be best to compare character like Tony Stark or Reed Richards who are known as their superhero identities. Most characters that are well known as both superhero and regular person are very wealthy. They can afford the extra security needed to keep themselves and their loved ones safe. Parker really can't, although he has powerful friends.


I like the poor, strugging Peter Parker as show in the old animated series or the recent movies. In the comics, however, I understand that he has gotten at least a solid job as a photographer so that he's not so struggling, and married Mary Jane who makes a boatload as a model, so I think he's not struggling financially any longer. I also understand that oftentimes the badguys figure out his true identity and put his loved ones at risk. Still it's one thing to have one or two badguys at a time putting them at risk while you're fighting these particular badguys, but quite another to have all the badguys in the world able to put the loves ones at risk at any time.

Beleriphon
2006-07-10, 03:07 AM
Still it's one thing to have one or two badguys at a time putting them at risk while you're fighting these particular badguys, but quite another to have all the badguys in the world able to put the loves ones at risk at any time.

That is exactly what I was trying to say, but you seemed to say it much better.

Parker can handle Venom, or even Carnage with somebody else at the same time. But if you take Venom, Carnage, Doc Ock, Electro, Shocker, the Lizard, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, and any other random bad guy at the same time because they all know who he is he's going to have a real problem.

Now if you're looking at this from the perspective of the government wanting to collect information about people with speical talents wanting to fight crime I can understand that, but if its just who has super powers then its no better then collecting information about Jews, or gays, or any other group of people to keep track of them. So is this an attempt to broaden the idea of the Mutant Registration Act, or is it to have a list or registered crime fighters?

Smashymcsmash
2006-07-10, 09:20 AM
Seriously Marvel Knights took away any protection Spidey's Identity gave him with that "Sinister Twelve" story. *They blew up Aunt May's house!! *Every Spidey Villian that matters knows who he is now. *Which is why they moved into Avengers Tower in the first place.

Beyond that if you actually read Amazing Spider-man you can see that Pete was very conflicted about it but thought it came down to a choice between revealing himself or giving up being Spider-man. *

Beyond that if you read "Beyond" it doesn't seem to matter... *yeah that'll stick. *

The best part about any conversation like this is that half the community is mad because they made such a huge seemingly unalterable change to the character and the other half is mad because they think it will be retconned.

Anyway read the books, esspecially "Amazing" then decide.

Edit: *Another note I wanted to make was that Captain America doesn't seem to care so much about his secret id but just believes that the registration act is wrong. *

The best part is when you think about how many times they tried to pass a mutant registration act in the MU but they never went after nonmutant superheroes. *I can just hear the lawmakers, "Well no they got their powers from a perfectly normal bombardment of cosmic rays. *No need to register them."

Ulicus
2006-07-10, 12:11 PM
Spidey's whole "reveal to the public" thing is weird though.

As far as I was aware, the Superhero Registration act was about superheroes giving their identities to the *government*, not the general public... ah... whatever.

Maybe I read the early stuff wrong.

fwiffo
2006-07-10, 12:57 PM
As far as I was aware, the Superhero Registration act was about superheroes giving their identities to the *government*, not the general public... ah... whatever.

Yeah, but once you give that to the government, some disgruntled little government cog leaks it, and the next thing you know the Daily Bugle headline reads "Secret Government Superhero Program Uncovered".

Ugly_Panda
2006-07-10, 08:19 PM
Is anyone else reminded of "The Watchmen" or is it just me?

"Are you crazy?? We have to keep our secret identities secret."
"From everybody?"
"Especially from everybody."
"Give several reasons why."
"For one, superheroes cause a lot of collateral damage, and we don't wanna get our butts sued."

Ing
2006-07-10, 09:01 PM
That's Futurama, not Watchmen


though i can see how one could make that mistake.

Foeofthelance
2006-07-11, 12:34 AM
I think one of the reason's a mutant registration act has never been much good is because in the end it was really rather pointless. Just about every government agency, including the Pest Control office in the Department of Agriculture, keeps their own independent list of mutant contacts. Any time an act came up in Congress Xavier would get it killed, and Xavier tended to gather all the powerful mutants at the mansion anyway, at least those not running around as supervillians.

Want proof? Wolverine #43, Tony Stark tells Wolverine that as a mutant he doesn't have to worry, because he and the rest of the 198 are already registered.

As for targeting families, it will always depend on the group in question. The X-men could screm from the rooftops and not care. They live with their own super powered army. Mr. Fantastic doesn't have to worry. Who are they going to attack? Sue Richards, the Invisible Woman? Johnny Storm, the Human Torch? Or better yet Ben Grimm, the Ever Lovin Blue Eyed Thing! Heck, even the kid is an Omega level mutant. Spiderman though? His wife is a supermodel, and his mother is pushing what, 70? 80? I'm half surprised Aunt May hasn't kicked the bucket from sheer old age. Those two would be helpless in the face an attack.

To those who think a Superhero family is safe, I suggest picking up the Wolverine:Enemy of the State TPB. If Wolverine can do that much damage as a Hydra puppet, think of what a determined villain could pull off, who was doing such willingly.

KayJay
2006-07-11, 04:46 AM
So, Reed finally got out of debt? Because in the first issue of 4, they were in so much debt they were kicked out of their house.
Reed later stated that the "being poor" thing was an experiment because he thought it'd being the family closer together, and that he could earn the money back in an instant. He let Ben keep all his money because he still felt guilty for turning him into the thing, though. Currently they seem to have all of their resources back, which may in part be due to Ben giving them money, part from Reed earning it back.

CelestialStick
2006-07-11, 06:00 AM
Actually, CS, you should check out some of Bendis's run on Daredevil, that story I just mentioned. His identity was uncovered and now he is in jail for obstruction of justice *read being Daredevil*.

That doesn't surprise me at all. In various versions of Batman, for instance, law enforcement agents (mostly Gotham City PD) want to arrest him at least part of the time. In the first Spiderman movie, NYPD is out to arrest Spiderman. There's even a story arc in Lois and Clark featuring an attractive female Metropolis assistant DA who has the hots for Clark but hates Superman. At one point Superman asks her what she's got against him and she says things like, "Do you read them their rights? Are you insured against damage you cause?" and so forth. In the end she gets blown up by the badguys, and as she lies dying in Clark's arms she sees that the explosion has blown his shirt apart and that he wears the S symbol underneath, but of course by then it's too late.

So there's a fair degree of precedent for the goverment-hostile to superhero anonymity, as well as to superheroes in general. In the Bruce Timm series, Justice League, in fact, a secret agency of the US government not only develops its own cloned superheroes, including an artifically matured version of Supergirl, but unleashes them on the Justice League in an all-out war. I think it's good stuff, as it accurately reflects the sort of hysteria we'd see today. Since the onset of postmodernist emotionalism, an awful lot of people have lost the ability (or grown up without the ability) to distinguish the goodguys from the badguys.

Oh I should also mention the X-Men films, in which an awful lot of people can't distinguish between the good (and neutral) mutants and the evil ones bent on destroying humanity. Since most of these mutants were created by Marvel after 1960, I'm not sure that there ever was a time when people in the Marvel world admired these heros the way that people admired Superman, Batman, Robin and Wonder Woman in the DC multiverse prior to 1960.




That is exactly what I was trying to say, but you seemed to say it much better.

Parker can handle Venom, or even Carnage with somebody else at the same time. But if you take Venom, Carnage, Doc Ock, Electro, Shocker, the Lizard, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, and any other random bad guy at the same time because they all know who he is he's going to have a real problem.

Now if you're looking at this from the perspective of the government wanting to collect information about people with speical talents wanting to fight crime I can understand that, but if its just who has super powers then its no better then collecting information about Jews, or gays, or any other group of people to keep track of them. So is this an attempt to broaden the idea of the Mutant Registration Act, or is it to have a list or registered crime fighters?

Thanks for the compliment! :) And I might add to your comments the fact that without anonymity, it's not just Green Goblin, Doc Oc and the other supervillains all at once, but every street thug that Spiderman has ever stymied who might be out looking for revenge through killing his loved ones.

I'm not sure that it really matters what the current intent of the registration is, even if we could say that there's only one intention. "Government" is a collection of people, and while some might want what might sound like innocuous registering of crime fighters, others might use that merely as a way of starting to develop a registry of metahumans/mutants/whatevers for discrimination. But even if everyone today wanted it for the 'innocuous' reason, that doesn't stop a later government from abusing the information, much as the Nazis used gun control passed by the Weimar Republic's Social Democratic Party to disarm Jews, or the way that the Clinton administration used FBI files collected under Bush against Bush appointees. Power given to government virtually always remains with government, whether or not the people in government currently have a desire to abuse that power or not.

It's also good to keep in mind the maxim of Lord Acton, one of the last great classical liberal writers, who in his History of Freedom wrote the now familiar insight, "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Just having the power tends to corrupt governments into abusing it.

Ugly_Panda
2006-07-11, 11:21 AM
That's Futurama, not Watchmen


though i can see how one could make that mistake.
No, those are two disjointed thoughts. One was relating to the plot of this miniseries and the other one is the real reason why superheros have secret identities.

Ing
2006-07-11, 03:26 PM
It's also good to keep in mind the maxim of Lord Acton, one of the last great classical liberal writers, who in his History of Freedom wrote the now familiar, "power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." *Just having the power tends to corrupt governments into abusing it.

and yet it is that same idea that makes the Goverment WANT to keep tabs on the metahumans. If political power currupts what about personal godlike power?

Jukashi
2006-07-11, 04:17 PM
Putting one's family and friends in danger really isn't a bother since, as we all know, they'll just come back eventually. It's like Valhalla.

Falkus
2006-07-14, 12:46 AM
Because they don't super powered nut jobs to fight. As pointed out already your average cop can't stop Venom, let alone somebody like Dr Doom. Some heros require annonymity because if they didn't have it super villains would be coming after them specifically if they escape prison.

If superheroes are absolutely necessary, then they should only be allowed to operate as part of a government agency with the proper checks and balances in place, not as vigilantes. Aside from the ethical and legal problems of allowing vigilantes to exist, superheros would probably be far more effective with a large government apparatus supporting them.

Ing
2006-07-14, 01:12 AM
but that wouldn't give them the freedom to oppose an unjust goverment. This problem was brought up in the colonial ages Marvel series where Cap. America became a terrorist after the Purple Man was elected president and turned it into a fascist state.

the law does not always equal justice. the state does not always equal morality.

besides they have those its called the avengers...and they kinda suck.

servetus
2006-07-14, 01:35 AM
Regardless of the logic of the series itself (which I'm still sorting through, since I follow only a handful of the relevant titles, but they do seem to be engaging most of the points raised on this board), I'm glad to see Marvel committing itself to public debate on major policy issues of the day, in this case civil liberties. The best recent example of comic books as a mirror on major issues was the Thor: Lord of Midguard run, in which Thor decided he had an ethical obligation to conquer the world in order to impose a more just and prosperous society on everyone. As I recall, it ran during the run-up to the Iraq war. They had the potential to do something just as good when Iron Man briefly became Secretary of Defense, but they stupidly threw that storyline away without doing anything with it.(fn 1)

So no, I don't see Civil War (or Spider-Man's unmasking) as a cheap marketing stunt, or a sign that Marvel is completely out of ideas, but a sign that they're trying to keep telling relevant stories, something that has been a longstanding tradition at Marvel, e.g. using mutants to deal with minority group rights and AIDS, going against the old Comic Code to deal with street drugs in Spider-Man, Iron Man's long struggle with alcoholism....

Oh, and for those of you calling for a reboot of the Marvel Universe--check out the Ultimate titles. That's a complete recreation of the Marvel Universe from a more modern perspective. Start with the first trade paperback for Ultimate Spider-Man or Ultimate X-Men.


fn 1: or maybe they realized that they couldn't possibly deal with the situation in Iraq in their comic book. Comic book writers are often staggeringly unqualified to discuss economic or macro-social issues, as witness by most runs of the Black Panther. They're better off sticking with allegory or issues confronting individuals.

malagigi
2006-07-14, 02:36 AM
Regardless of the logic of the series itself (which I'm still sorting through, since I follow only a handful of the relevant titles, but they do seem to be engaging most of the points raised on this board), I'm glad to see Marvel committing itself to public debate on major policy issues of the day, in this case civil liberties. . .

I know that was the intent of this line, but reading about it, I find it to be a better allegory for the debate on gun control and gun registration (which may be about civil liberties, but not typically associated with the term "civil liberties"). Does anybody else see that?

Falkus
2006-07-14, 09:06 AM
the law does not always equal justice. the state does not always equal morality.

So what? Because the state has the potential to be bad, no-one should ever work for the government?

fwiffo
2006-07-14, 09:34 AM
... superheros would probably be far more effective with a large government apparatus supporting them.

I know superheroes operate in world with great deal of fantastic things, but this is a little too fantastic. Maybe a good premise for alternate universe, but in this universe... no.

Ing
2006-07-14, 09:53 AM
So what? Because the state has the potential to be bad, no-one should ever work for the government?

no that's not what i said, you're using hyperbolle to make your argument.

A "hero" in these cases needs some free room to oppose any evil. If they are compleatly dedicaded to the goverment they can become like Allen Moore's Comedian where they are little more than a glorified SS soldier. take for example when Superman (normally a guy in the ok with the gov) discovers a man on death row is innocent. he has no real evidence but the man is going to be killed in 1 hour. his moral obligation is to violate the law and goverment and save that man and then later try to sort it out with the goverment. it would be the right thing to do but the goverment would no longer view Superman as an friendly force. Batman can't work in the goverment because his entire effectivness is around comming close to violating civil rights of suspects.

Falkus
2006-07-14, 02:04 PM
I know superheroes operate in world with great deal of fantastic things, but this is a little too fantastic. Maybe a good premise for alternate universe, but in this universe... no.

This sounds similar to suggesting that the FBI would do a better job of catching criminals if instead of being a widespread government agency, FBI agents were required to train themselves and hunt down criminals with no support.


A "hero" in these cases needs some free room to oppose any evil.

And what controls are in place on this hero, what checks and balances are there to prevent him from abusing his power? Who exactly is he responsible to?


If they are compleatly dedicaded to the goverment they can become like Allen Moore's Comedian where they are little more than a glorified SS soldier.

And without government support, they become little more than vigilantes who, regardless of how movies show it, are more likely to hurt innocent people than criminals.


take for example when Superman (normally a guy in the ok with the gov) discovers a man on death row is innocent. he has no real evidence but the man is going to be killed in 1 hour.

If he has no real evidence, how does he know this guy is innocent?


Batman can't work in the goverment because his entire effectivness is around comming close to violating civil rights of suspects.

And that's supposed to be a good thing? That sound more like a horrendously bad thing to me.

Ing
2006-07-14, 02:09 PM
This sounds similar to suggesting that the FBI would do a better job of catching criminals if instead of being a widespread government agency, FBI agents were required to train themselves and hunt down criminals with no support.


And what controls are in place on this hero, what checks and balances are there to prevent him from abusing his power? Who exactly is he responsible to?

Well the averge FBI can't lift a school bus. *its compleatly diffrent things. *

The same restrictions that they won't be currupt in the goverment IE none...save that on their own they're volunteering for the job and in theory more dedicated to the goal than someone on a paycheck
And without government support, they become little more than vigilantes who, regardless of how movies show it, are more likely to hurt innocent people than criminals.



If he has no real evidence, how does he know this guy is innocent?

he had no PRESENTABLE evidence. *he found it out with super hearing and the such (actually in the epesoid he found it out as CLark Kent but the real murderer 'killed' Kent with a car bomb to cover it up, destroying the evidence he had and SUperman could not present the evidence without revelling his secret idenity. *he was going to do it anyway until he found there was a way to bluff and have CLark still be alive. *)




And that's supposed to be a good thing? That sound more like a horrendously bad thing to me.

Batman self controls and censors. he dosn't actually torture or anything but he does scare the bajesus out of them, something rela cops are kinda lalowed to do but his putting them in positions where they could possibly die is technicly torture under the geneva convention.

Zzarchov
2006-07-14, 03:24 PM
Actually Ing, I think you have some rose coloured glasses on here.

What if an FBI agent discovered he had the super power of extra long toenails, could he abandon the law and seek his own vigilante justice? What if he has self control like batman? Where is the super power line?

He'll, Batman doesn't even have powers, he is a textbook vigilante. If having money and a troubled past and "really being a good guy" is all it takes to adandon the law..it really should stick for everyone.

Falkus
2006-07-14, 03:59 PM
Well the averge FBI can't lift a school bus. its compleatly diffrent things.

Lifting a school bus can replace an entire bureau of specialized investigators and analysts?


The same restrictions that they won't be currupt in the goverment IE none

Actually, what keeps the government from becoming corrupt is the fact that power is divided between the executive, legislative and judical.

Beleriphon
2006-07-14, 04:34 PM
Actually, what keeps the government from becoming corrupt is the fact that power is divided between the executive, legislative and judical.

No, its technically the people. The fact that they can vote somebody out tends to keep most politicians honest, or very good at hiding corruption. You can avoid checks and balances with a truely corrupt government. Thats also only true in the US, other countries don't follow the same model. While Marvel is cetainly Americacentric, that doesn't invalidate the point that in Canada the Privy Council could in theory over turn a Supreme Court ruling.

Ing
2006-07-15, 12:04 AM
No, its technically the people. The fact that they can vote somebody out tends to keep most politicians honest, or very good at hiding corruption. You can avoid checks and balances with a truely corrupt government. Thats also only true in the US, other countries don't follow the same model. While Marvel is cetainly Americacentric, that doesn't invalidate the point that in Canada the Privy Council could in theory over turn a Supreme Court ruling.

first off you term of "Most politicians as honest" is just so naivevly cute and precious...its so rare. like seeing a live Panda on the NY subway.

second even if ther eare checks and balances there is no way to know if it is just a dog and pony show (with only 2 partys perfectly reasonsable to assume especially if one party controls all aspects of goverment) or if that seperation will stay at a future date.

abandoning the law is not a necesarry trait for a hero but you run into dangerous ground if you make them a weapon for the military. and no lifting a bus can't replace the FBI activity but generally the FBI can FIND a serial killer that can cause people's kidny's to burst into flames at a mere thought...but can they bring him down?? hence why DC needs a Batman, or Greenlantern.

Kish
2006-07-15, 12:36 AM
abandoning the law is not a necesarry trait for a hero but you run into dangerous ground if you make them a weapon for the military.
However, you run into ground at least as dangerous if you put them outside the law.

Beleriphon
2006-07-15, 01:20 AM
first off you term of "Most politicians as honest" is just so naivevly cute and precious...its so rare. like seeing a live Panda on the NY subway.


Well, the fact that politicians need to make a show of being honest is what keeps the in office. Whether or not they are is a different matter. I actually assume that when a politician says something they're lying, just by default.

As for the panda, hey I say one once. It was in Toronto, and I think I was on something, but I tell you it was there.

The other big problem, for Batman in particular, is that justice and law aren't always the same thing. Thus why most countries have a legal system, as opposed to a justice system. While as whole the idea is make them one in the same that just isn't possible.

As for superheros vs the FBI, I expect that the FBI could find Dr Doom's secret lair, but its takes the Fantasic Four to stop him. Sometimes that means doing things that the FBI legally can't do, or if they did wouldn't be able to justify in a court of law.

At any rate all superheros are vigilantes. They would all be arrested as soon as possible in the real world, thus why its best not to think too hard about the whole issue.

TreesOfDeath
2006-07-15, 06:56 AM
The best recent example of comic books as a mirror on major issues was the Thor: Lord of Midguard run, in which Thor decided he had an ethical obligation to conquer the world in order to impose a more just and prosperous society on everyone. *As I recall, it ran during the run-up to the Iraq war.

Really? Cool, how did it turn out? Spoil it for me

Ing
2006-07-15, 01:18 PM
Well, the fact that politicians need to make a show of being honest is what keeps the in office. Whether or not they are is a different matter. I actually assume that when a politician says something they're lying, just by default.

As for the panda, hey I say one once. It was in Toronto, and I think I was on something, but I tell you it was there.

The other big problem, for Batman in particular, is that justice and law aren't always the same thing. Thus why most countries have a legal system, as opposed to a justice system. While as whole the idea is make them one in the same that just isn't possible.

As for superheros vs the FBI, I expect that the FBI could find Dr Doom's secret lair, but its takes the Fantasic Four to stop him. Sometimes that means doing things that the FBI legally can't do, or if they did wouldn't be able to justify in a court of law.

At any rate all superheros are vigilantes. They would all be arrested as soon as possible in the real world, thus why its best not to think too hard about the whole issue.

Exactly for why Superhero's arn't just regular police officers read DARK KNIGHT STRIKES BACK by Miller. It details the problem when the heros just do the goverment's bidding and capture only the criminals recognized by law. in it Luthor and Brainiac have managed to take over America, essentually makeing Superman and other hero's their puppets, or outlawing them and imprisoning and killing them. it details the hero's and the confliction on the irony that in order to do the right thing they must break the law. Batman even makes the famous quote "In order to fight crime we all must become criminals" its a real catch 22 for ya.

Now a comic where heros are pretty much the goverment exists in Watchmen...the result is kinda unideal

Zzarchov
2006-07-16, 01:57 AM
Im curious..

What is it batman can do that an FBI agent free from the constraints of the law cannot do?

Money? Government has more than Bruce Wayne.
Training? Government has access to that as well.

So if batman can stop all these villains, so could the FBI if you freed it from the bounds of the law. Thats obviously not a good situation.

For every superhero you read a comic about doing the right thing all the time..how many screw up and hurt or kill the falsely accused?

Obviously in the idealistic 'good guys win' comics this is 0, if this were somehow reality: a majority.

Steward
2006-07-16, 02:03 AM
What is it batman can do that an FBI agent free from the constraints of the law cannot do?

Batman is crazier than any FBI agent and has the unique ability to always be right, no matter how stupid or insane his ideas are.

Beleriphon
2006-07-16, 02:11 AM
Im curious..
Money? Government has more than Bruce Wayne.
Training? Government has access to that as well.

Right but Batman doesn't have to deal with a bureaucracy when he blows up the batmobile. He just up and gets a new one built, with more stuff to prevent blowing it up next time.

Ultimately the reason that superheroes work in comics is because they aren't, generally, constrained by the bureaucratic systems that are in place for most large organizations, like the FBI.

If you strip away the structure, organization, and legalities of a stopping criminals you don't get a free wheeling FBI agents Dana Scully and Fox Mulder. Instead you get Frank Castle, the Punisher.

Falkus
2006-07-16, 08:58 AM
One of the most amusing superhero short stories I ever read (Empowered, by Alan Dean Foster) was about a man with the ability to create and control plants and trees using this power to foil a group of criminals robbing a jewlery store. A few days later, a lawyer shows up at his secret hideout, and explains how he's being being sued by several bystanders injured during his actions, the owners of several buildings and vehicles he damaged, the owner of the store and all of the criminals he captured, claiming that he used excessive force. As well, the police have an arrest warrant on him out for interfering with police activities, and the FDA and a local nature organization want a chat with him concerning the exact natire of his abilities.

Thrawn318
2006-07-16, 12:09 PM
I think that this whole debate comes down to the nature of comics. If Marvel kept a series exaclty the same for all eternity it would be boring. At the same time, Marvel's ability to take anything back at any time makes people less interested in what's happening: omg, so-and-so just died.... wait.... no he didn't it was just a clone! I think the real solution is for the characters to be dynamic and evolving, like going public, while not retconning anything so that what happens is actually suspenseful and interesting. Frankly, I get tired of reading about how Peter Parker is always struggling as a photographer and am ready for something new.

servetus
2006-07-16, 12:20 PM
Really? Cool, how did it turn out? Spoil it for me

Thor started out by overthrowing corrupt dictatorships and feeding the masses, leading to a serious revival in Thor worship. It was the sort of run in which they'd devote entire issues to the perspective of individual households trying to adjust to the changes, so it doesn't lend itself to plot summary. Eventually Thor has ended up conquering the entire world, crushing several independence movements by his fellow Avengers in the process, and turning so authoritarian that he loses the ability to wield Mjolnir. Loki becomes the head of planetary security, and engages in all sorts of intrigue to stir up just enough trouble to justify his authoritarian powers.
But for most people, Thor has actually created a paradise, just one imposed from above which leaves very little room for human aspiration or free will. Thor is increasingly opposed by old and trusted allies as more nad more of them come to decide the price isn't worth it for the mortals. Eventually events force Thor to realize the error of his ways, and he undoes everything. I recommend reading the actual books; the plot, while pretty well designed, was just a background for an exploration of social and political issues.

Immediately after that the writers seem to have decided they couldn't possibly go anywhere from there, so they had Ragnarok occur and killed off all the Asgardians for a time. Thor's return actually appears to be an important element of this Civil War story.

CelestialStick
2006-07-20, 12:17 PM
and yet it is that same idea that makes the Goverment WANT to keep tabs on the metahumans. If political power currupts what about personal godlike power?
Well the humans in government (always keep in mind that it's a collection of humans, not some superior, magically morally entity) always want to stomp on any challenges to their power.

You're right, however, in thinking that many people foolishly view government as some superior, magically moral entity that they would want to keep an eye on superheroes so that their power doesn't corrupt them. Most superheroes though just don't have the sort of power that governments have, and so represent a much smaller threat. Really powerful superheroes like Superman, however, who can shift tectonic plates and small planets, could represent as great a threat as government, but then of course, you can't trust government anyway, as the greatest threat to liberty itself, so it's certainly no cure for the threat posed by superheroes.


but that wouldn't give them the freedom to oppose an unjust goverment. This problem was brought up in the colonial ages Marvel series where Cap. America became a terrorist after the Purple Man was elected president and turned it into a fascist state.

the law does not always equal justice. the state does not always equal morality.

Exactly. Indeed having superheros work for the state would create the greatest agglomeration of power possible, thus creating the greatest threat to liberty possible.

Ing
2006-07-20, 01:10 PM
Well the humans in government (always keep in mind that it's a collection of humans, not some superior, magically morally entity) always want to stomp on any challenges to their power.

You're right, however, in thinking that many people foolishly view government as some superior, magically moral entity that they would want to keep an eye on superheroes so that their power doesn't corrupt them. Most superheroes though just don't have the sort of power that governments have, and so represent a much smaller threat. Really powerful superheroes like Superman, however, who can shift tectonic plates and small planets, could represent as great a threat as government, but then of course, you can't trust government anyway, as the greatest threat to liberty itself, so it's certainly no cure for the threat posed by superheroes.


Exactly. Indeed having superheros work for the state would create the greatest agglomeration of power possible, thus creating the greatest threat to liberty possible.


CS agrees with me?
I agree with CS?

*Head asplodes as pigs with winged butt cheeks fly out of the frozen planes of hell*

CelestialStick
2006-07-20, 05:17 PM
CS agrees with me?
I agree with CS?

*Head asplodes as pigs with winged but cheeks fly out of the frozen planes of hell*
;D ;D ;D ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Beleriphon
2006-07-20, 10:44 PM
;D ;D ;D ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


I'm finding that I agree with CS as well Ing. In the ends, not necessarily the means largely, but thats a different tangent.

CelestialStick
2006-07-21, 03:08 AM
I'm finding that I agree with CS as well Ing. In the ends, not necessarily the means largely, but thats a different tangent.
All three of us agree?! The universe has just refractured into the DC multiverse! :D

Actually one of the things that's cool about most superheroes is that they don't work for the government. Where government is corrupt or incompetent (or both) you have superheroes doing what's right in spite of government. Of course there have been some superheroes, like Captain America and Captain Atom, who have worked for the government but oftentimes they've been pawns of the government willingly sacrificed (which is often how they ended up with their superpowers).

The fourth season of Justice League Unlimited dealt in a thoughtful way with the whole goverment versus superhero issue. Because it doesn't trust any rival to its own power, government tries to create clone superheros who will be loyal to the government. When it turns out that the government views the clones a disposable, it's the vigilante Justice League that steps in and saves the one who sees through the government's facade of wanting to "fix" the clones.

Beleriphon
2006-07-21, 03:25 AM
When it turns out that the government views the clones a disposable, it's the vigilante Justice League that steps in and saves the one who sees through the government's facade of wanting to "fix" the clones.

I liked Longshadow, he was a very cool and thoughtful character.

But yeah, this is why I can totally see Captain America as being against this whole hing. He's the ultimate patriot, not the ultimate government operative (at least not anymore).

CelestialStick
2006-07-21, 03:42 AM
I liked Longshadow, he was a very cool and thoughtful character.

But yeah, this is why I can totally see Captain America as being against this whole hing. He's the ultimate patriot, not the ultimate government operative (at least not anymore).
Was Longshadow the name of the clone who went over to the JL?

Beleriphon
2006-07-21, 04:11 AM
Was Longshadow the name of the clone who went over to the JL?

Yep, the whole clone group was funny, they were the made up members of the Superfriends. Longshadow was a take on the native american guy, the twins were there Wonder Twins, so overall quite a funny bit there.

CelestialStick
2006-07-21, 12:28 PM
Yep, the whole clone group was funny, they were the made up members of the Superfriends. Longshadow was a take on the native american guy, the twins were there Wonder Twins, so overall quite a funny bit there.
Wait? The clone superheroes from Cadmeus were the same as the second-string Superfriends superheroes? What a hoot!

Edit: I looked up Superfriends in Wikipedia and found the following:

A first season episode of the Cartoon Network television series Justice League Unlimited featured The Ultimen, a group of superheroes that are a pastiche of heroes unique to the Super Friends. The members were Long Shadow (based on Apache Chief), Wind Dragon (Samurai), Juice (Black Vulcan), Downpour (Zan of the Wonder Twins), and Shifter (Jayna of the Wonder Twins). The headquarters of the Ultimen, although on top of a skyscraper, resembled the Super Friends' Hall of Justice.

From the Wikipedia article on the Ultimen:

The Ultimen themselves are a pastiche of several ethnically diverse superheroes from the old Super Friends series (sometimes referred to as the "Affirmative Action" Heroes) as well as the Wonder Twins. While they retain the powers and cultural backgrounds of these characters, they are portrayed in a far less stereotypical fashion. Additionally, the two characters based on the Wonder Twins don't need to touch hands to transform, unlike the Superfriends originals.

* Wind Dragon – The leader of the Ultimen, who had the power to control the wind and later on create ice. (Based on Samurai)
* Long Shadow - Has the powers to expand his body mass, growing into a massive giant. Also demonstrates enhanced hearing. Has a crush on Wonder Woman, much to Batman’s chagrin. (Based on Apache Chief)
* Downpour - Shifter’s brother, can turn into any form of water, whether liquid, gaseous (steam), or solid (ice), including ice constructs. (Based on Zan of the Wonder Twins)
* Shifter – Downpour’s sister, can turn into any animal, even extinct ones, though she always has white skin, fur, scales, etc. (Based on Jayna of the Wonder Twins)
* Juice – Can control electricity that came from his body. Water is his weakness and causes his powers to short out. (Based on Black Vulcan)

Cool!

Getting back to Spiderman, I understand that there has been at least one and perhaps two different Peter Parker/Spiderman clones during the run of the Spiderman comics.

Spidey Edit: I looked up Spiderman in Wikepidia and found that there have been three clones of Peter!

The second Clone Saga

More years passed when Spider-Man's clone reappeared. He had survived the battle and for several years had lived an existence under the identity of Ben Reilly (a combination of Peter's Uncle Ben's first name and Aunt May's maiden name). A series of chaotic events followed, in which Peter and Ben were plagued by both a resurrected Jackal and by Kaine, who was revealed to be the unsuccessful first clone. In the process, another clone of Spider-Man became the villain Spidercide.

The three clones of Peter Parker:
1. Ben Reilly
2. Kaine
3. Spidercide

"The Three Clones of Peter Parker" sounds like a Shakespeare play! :D

Ing
2006-07-21, 05:14 PM
You forgot the Doppleganger SPiderman that was left over from the Secret Wars and fell into earth. He quickly fell in with Carnage's crowd as a son/pet.

so far he's "dead" as carnage threw him off a roof top but since the dead body was never seen he's possibly still alive.

Smashymcsmash
2006-07-21, 05:54 PM
The doppleganer is from Infinity War. *Secret War is where he got the sweet black suit... though I hear it didn't all work out for the best. ;)

anphorus
2006-07-21, 10:38 PM
The doppleganer is from Infinity War. Secret War is where he got the sweet black suit... though I hear it didn't all work out for the best. ;)

Actually Secret War is the crossover a year or two ago in Latveria. Secret Wars was the one with the Alien Costume.

It's not confusing at all!

And Marvel seems to be turning Iron Man into more and more of a villain, with all his manipulations and schemings.

Ing
2006-07-21, 10:44 PM
Actually Secret War is the crossover a year or two ago in Latveria. Secret Wars was the one with the Alien Costume.

It's not confusing at all!

And Marvel seems to be turning Iron Man into more and more of a villain, with all his manipulations and schemings.


and horrid fashion taste...

and I thought Daredevili was the one that was blind?

Foeofthelance
2006-07-21, 11:14 PM
Well, Tony Stark turning out to be evil doesn't really seem all that odd to me. He is, after all, sort of Marvel's Batman. He just has a bit more of a technological edge. Well, that, and he doesn't have Superman looking over his shoulder.

In the end though, he's the one destined for the biggest fall. Spoliers for Civil War 3 ahead folks. Ye be warned, there's spoilers in the water!











Just sayin' turn back now.











Ok, here it is. The X-men, save for a Bishop and few others, reject his plan out right. Meanwhile, Captain America and a returned Nick Fury (just waiting for the Daisy Johnson cameo...) have set up an underground Avengers. Which proceeds to get suckered into a trap by Stark, who blows up one of his own refineries/factories as bait. During the fight, Iron Man proceeds to beat the crap out of Cap, who only survives because Hercules steps in for him.

Stark though, seems to have gotten out of hand, through out all the book he's plotting and taking charge. This isn't for the public. In my opinion, he's on a power kick. And any one who doesn't fit in with his plans has to go. The only reason he's worked so hard to get Cap to come over to his side is because he know how bad the publicity will be from confronting Cap. He's trying to manipulate the Marvel heroes in the same way Max Kord manipulated the Justice League for so long. Just, this time there are a few more consequences, because people can see it happening.

Though the best bit was Black Panther telling off Reed Richards. I can't help but smile when ever some one takes Reeds down a notch. Pick up Civil War:Frontline to see it happen more often, especially from Ben Urich.

Ing
2006-07-21, 11:21 PM
Well, Tony Stark turning out to be evil doesn't really seem all that odd to me. He is, after all, sort of Marvel's Batman. He just has a bit more of a technological edge. Well, that, and he doesn't have Superman looking over his shoulder.

In the end though, he's the one destined for the biggest fall. Spoliers for Civil War 3 ahead folks. Ye be warned, there's spoilers in the water!











Just sayin' turn back now.











Ok, here it is. The X-men, save for a Bishop and few others, reject his plan out right. Meanwhile, Captain America and a returned Nick Fury (just waiting for the Daisy Johnson cameo...) have set up an underground Avengers. Which proceeds to get suckered into a trap by Stark, who blows up one of his own refineries/factories as bait. During the fight, Iron Man proceeds to beat the crap out of Cap, who only survives because Hercules steps in for him.

Stark though, seems to have gotten out of hand, through out all the book he's plotting and taking charge. This isn't for the public. In my opinion, he's on a power kick. And any one who doesn't fit in with his plans has to go. The only reason he's worked so hard to get Cap to come over to his side is because he know how bad the publicity will be from confronting Cap. He's trying to manipulate the Marvel heroes in the same way Max Kord manipulated the Justice League for so long. Just, this time there are a few more consequences, because people can see it happening.

Though the best bit was Black Panther telling off Reed Richards. I can't help but smile when ever some one takes Reeds down a notch. Pick up Civil War:Frontline to see it happen more often, especially from Ben Urich.

Tony Stark is like what would happen if McCarthy married a Gundam Mecha

Foeofthelance
2006-07-22, 12:58 AM
Cause that just doesn't leave me with a dandy mental image. Though the fic might be interesting...

CelestialStick
2006-07-22, 09:38 AM
You forgot the Doppleganger SPiderman that was left over from the Secret Wars and fell into earth. He quickly fell in with Carnage's crowd as a son/pet.

so far he's "dead" as carnage threw him off a roof top but since the dead body was never seen he's possibly still alive.


I didn't forget him so much as not know about him. Was he yet another clone of Peter?


Well, Tony Stark turning out to be evil doesn't really seem all that odd to me. He is, after all, sort of Marvel's Batman. He just has a bit more of a technological edge. Well, that, and he doesn't have Superman looking over his shoulder.

In the old days, Batman wasn't so dark and he didn't need Superman looking over his shoulder; they were best friends. DC has turned Batmann into such a rotten egg these days. Sometimes I like the contrast with Superman, but at other times I yearn for the days when they were friends.


Ok, here it is. The X-men, save for a Bishop and few others, reject his plan out right. Meanwhile, Captain America and a returned Nick Fury (just waiting for the Daisy Johnson cameo...) have set up an underground Avengers. Which proceeds to get suckered into a trap by Stark, who blows up one of his own refineries/factories as bait. During the fight, Iron Man proceeds to beat the crap out of Cap, who only survives because Hercules steps in for him.
Marvel comics has Hercules in it? Is he more or less the Hercules of Greek mythology?

Beleriphon
2006-07-22, 09:42 AM
I didn't forget him so much as not know about him. Was he yet another clone of Peter?

Not as such, he's the one with eight arms and more like a spider. I suppose that he could be a considered a clone, but its not so much a clone as one of many evil copies created during the Infinity War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Doppleganger

CelestialStick
2006-07-22, 09:56 AM
Not as such, he's the one with eight arms and more like a spider. I suppose that he could be a considered a clone, but its not so much a clone as one of many evil copies created during the Infinity War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Doppleganger
The Wikipedia entry says that the Magus created Spider-Doppleganger and that he was a duplicate of Spider Man, but not how Magus created Spider-Doppleganger. If Magus used Peter's DNA in a scientific process then I'd probably call Spider-Doppleganger a clone, but if Magus just used magic, I might not. (Note, however, that D&D has an arcane spell actually called clone, although that doesn't really change the fact that when we think of clones we generally think of some scientific, rather than magical, process, or at least I do. :) )

Smashymcsmash
2006-07-22, 09:58 AM
Actually Secret War is the crossover a year or two ago in Latveria. Secret Wars was the one with the Alien Costume.

It's not confusing at all!

And Marvel seems to be turning Iron Man into more and more of a villain, with all his manipulations and schemings.


Aaaahh I had almost forgotten Secret War!! Now my spelling error has doomed me to remember! NOOOOOOOO!

Foeofthelance
2006-07-22, 12:40 PM
AS far as I know, Hercules is indeed the legendary greek. Probably just running around america because thats where most of the bad guys seem to hang out.

Ing
2006-07-22, 12:43 PM
AS far as I know, Hercules is indeed the legendary greek. Probably just running around america because thats where most of the bad guys seem to hang out.


Hercules is a mutant

Smashymcsmash
2006-07-22, 07:47 PM
In Marvel Hercules is the son of Zeus. I guess he qualifies as a mutant as his dna combines a god and human. Now my head hurts.

Ing
2006-07-22, 10:54 PM
I feel so bad for JJJ...he's so crushed over this and so betrayed.

Parker was like a son to him
Spiderman insulted him at every chance and often commited petty acts of vandalism agianst him.

now that Parker is Spiderman he feels like Parker's been laughing behind his back the whole time while he went out of his way to look after the newbee photographer, giving him his break, accepting his photos even when they wern't the best, looking after him a bit, really makes you feel for JJJ while making Peter look like a real ass for riding him as he did in the Spiderman persona.

servetus
2006-07-23, 12:23 AM
Well the humans in government (always keep in mind that it's a collection of humans, not some superior, magically morally entity) always want to stomp on any challenges to their power.

You're right, however, in thinking that many people foolishly view government as some superior, magically moral entity that they would want to keep an eye on superheroes so that their power doesn't corrupt them. Most superheroes though just don't have the sort of power that governments have, and so represent a much smaller threat. Really powerful superheroes like Superman, however, who can shift tectonic plates and small planets, could represent as great a threat as government, but then of course, you can't trust government anyway, as the greatest threat to liberty itself, so it's certainly no cure for the threat posed by superheroes.


Exactly. Indeed having superheros work for the state would create the greatest agglomeration of power possible, thus creating the greatest threat to liberty possible.

We can't assume any single power is benevolent and wise, so there goes Plato's solution to government. What's needed is checks and balances. As long as superheroes are separate from the government, they create a separate check on the power of the state, but someone needs to check them. Bringing them into the government increases the power of the state, and re-emphasizes the need for checks and balances and a strong opposition.

However, it is easier to create suitable checks and balances for large entities than for small ones, for the simple reason that there are more stakeholders. It's pretty hard to co-opt the whole federal government; it's not nearly as hard to co-opt an individual superhero group, even without mind control.

Madison's Federalist #10 should be required reading for, well, everyone. And #51 is pretty good too. (The Federalist Papers, by Hamilton, Madison, and Jay; collect them all!)

Check out Harvard economics Prof Ed Glaeser's paper on psychology and markets, available on his website, for another application of the "just because you've found a problem doesn't mean government is the solution" line of argument.

Ing
2006-07-23, 11:24 PM
I just read up to 3 in civil war


it was surprisingly GOOD!

first off Tony Stark is definitly comming off as a bit EVIL (especially since his secrete police SHOOT a fellow metahuman, only to be surprised when they discover he's invulrible...note that means THEY WERE PLANING ON KILLING HIM)...but it makes it hard to see why Spiderman is on their side...i mean he knows what its like to be a hunted hero, why is he selling out like that (maybe something in that new bug ugly spider suit if making Tony warp his mind maybe?)

second. Reed Richards...is a ****. he intentionally puts his family into poverty, he turns agianst his friends WITHOUT GIVING TWO EYE BLINKS ABOUT IT, and he apparently REFUSES to visit his sick brother in law in the hospital. It looks like he's about to loose his wife and frankly i don't blame Sue, since its clear she disagrees with the whole civil war, but Reeds plows on not even caring about her feelings assuming she's on the same side as him.

3) they due address the issue of patriotic NIMBY. US goverment dosn't care when Genosa is irradicated, but when some superheros blow up a US town they go batshizinsane and start rounding people up. quite a double standard.

Kish
2006-07-24, 01:26 AM
I feel so bad for JJJ...he's so crushed over this and so betrayed.

Parker was like a son to him
Spiderman insulted him at every chance and often commited petty acts of vandalism agianst him.

now that Parker is Spiderman he feels like Parker's been laughing behind his back the whole time while he went out of his way to look after the newbee photographer, giving him his break, accepting his photos even when they wern't the best, looking after him a bit, really makes you feel for JJJ while making Peter look like a real ass for riding him as he did in the Spiderman persona.
Every so often, I read something, like the "Belkar isn't evil" arguments, that makes me think nothing I read online can surprise me anymore.

I am always wrong, and one day I will stop thinking that.

Jameson chose to paint Spiderman as a villain without regard for what Spiderman did, because he believed it would sell better. If Jameson's articles on Spiderman had been anything but complete fabrications he would now be very dead, but since Spiderman actually is a good guy, he limited himself to snarky comments in return. Jameson made Spiderman's life harder and riskier both emotionally by spinning everything he did as villainy and physically by convincing people he was trying to help to treat him as a monster--for money. And for making fun of Jameson verbally, starting after Jameson embarked on his "paint Spiderman as the worst thing that ever happened to this city" campaign, Spiderman looks like a real ass? Wow, he can no more catch a break from you than he can from Jameson.

KayJay
2006-07-24, 07:45 AM
I feel so bad for JJJ...he's so crushed over this and so betrayed.

Parker was like a son to him
Spiderman insulted him at every chance and often commited petty acts of vandalism agianst him.

now that Parker is Spiderman he feels like Parker's been laughing behind his back the whole time while he went out of his way to look after the newbee photographer, giving him his break, accepting his photos even when they wern't the best, looking after him a bit, really makes you feel for JJ while making Peter look like a real ass for riding him as he did in the Spiderman persona.
His photos WERE the best though.... He took photos of spiderman, and he WAS Spiderman, it was JJ being himself and pretending they weren't good. Why do you think that Peter commonly landed the front page with his photos if they weren't good? even if he did sell some duds, someone like JJ knows that he should still keep him on the pay roll for when he hits the big scoop like he always does. Jameson knows on some level that Spiderman isn't a bad guy... i mean, he's even saved him on occasion, so the vendetta seems to start and end with him.

The longer I read all this Civil War business, the more convinced I am that there will be an epic rollback. After all, isn't there a marvel universe in the future for comics like Spidergirl, where Spiderman's secret is not known? I don't see how they're going to continue a series like Spiderman with everyone knowing he is Peter Parker though... it's just too much of a change.

Ing
2006-07-24, 12:02 PM
His photos WERE the best though.... He took photos of spiderman, and he WAS Spiderman, it was JJ being himself and pretending they weren't good. Why do you think that Peter commonly landed the front page with his photos if they weren't good? even if he did sell some duds, someone like JJ knows that he should still keep him on the pay roll for when he hits the big scoop like he always does. Jameson knows on some level that Spiderman isn't a bad guy... i mean, he's even saved him on occasion, so the vendetta seems to start and end with him.

The longer I read all this Civil War business, the more convinced I am that there will be an epic rollback. After all, isn't there a marvel universe in the future for comics like Spidergirl, where Spiderman's secret is not known? I don't see how they're going to continue a series like Spiderman with everyone knowing he is Peter Parker though... it's just too much of a change.

Peter's early photos sucked, JJJ took them cause he liked the cut of the kid's giblets. Photos got better as Peter got the hank of the remote camera trick.

he sees Peter was running a con game on him, pretending to be a good employee even close to a son figure while all the time being a scam artist who bad mouthed him in secret and stole his money.

ironicly if Peter had told JJJ how he'd gottan all the photos, He probably woulda loved the idea, respecting that kinda advancement in journalism. JJJ did make it hard for Peter to do anything like that though with his smeering, but Peter's jeers did escalate the situation to a point where there was no way a resolution could ever be reached peacefully.

Foeofthelance
2006-07-25, 12:09 AM
Kayjay Posted
After all, isn't there a marvel universe in the future for comics like Spidergirl, where Spiderman's secret is not known? I don't see how they're going to continue a series like Spiderman with everyone knowing he is Peter Parker though... it's just too much of a change.

This is one of the things I like about Marvel over DC. Marvel will take an alternate history/timeline, and just run with it, continuity be damned. DC on the other hand tried to clean everything up once in a while, and discovers that not everything can be organized properly. End result: Marvel can just say "Oh that happened, but it happened here not here." With DC you get "Well, that did happen, but then this happened, so it really didn't occur until after this happened, which only makes sense because then this happened and renders the entire conversation pointless."

I really can't see Marvel retconing any of this, especially not after putting the Watcher in the first Civil War issue. Somethings, like Parker outing himself, might be shoved under a rug somewhere, and done away with somehow, but I doubt the relationship between Cap and Iron Man will ever be the same again, or even if the Avengers still exist after this. Not to mention shake ups in other teams such as the F4 or X-Men. As mentioned above, Reed is playing the (Censored due to the nature of the Program. Sorry, but We'll air M*A*S*H instead!) and now Bishop has run off to chase down the runaway 198, while Cyclops, Iceman, and Archangel go running off themselves.

Not mention the smaller titles affected by all this, such as Runaways (Read it, its good) or Young Avengers (not really as good).

KayJay
2006-07-25, 04:23 AM
I think that it's likely that there's a rollback mainly because Marvel have done it before several times. Age of Apocalypse, House of M, and even the Onslaught Saga had a lot of "dead" heroes returning, off the top of my head. There's also been less epic rollbacks, such as in Marvel: The End, where Thanos got hold of infinite power and obliterated the universe, then rebuilt it again but stopped the dead from coming back to life.
The status quo is commonly restored in Marvel from what I've seen, so I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen again.

Foeofthelance
2006-07-25, 11:39 AM
True, but reurning to the staus quo and roll backs are two entirely different things. With possibly the exception of the Thanos story line, none of those things erased events in the past. Each either occurs in the future, and somehow affects the past. Those that occur in the present don't try to tie the universe together neatly, but cause new events. When you read the end of House of M for example, Peter Parker, Dr. Strange, and the rest of the players all remember M world. Granted, Hawk Eye comes back, but that was Wanda trying to fix a mistake she made. And while Hawk Eye came back, the entire mutant population was just about obliterated. The X-Men are now under lock and key. Oh, and there's a civil war.

DC on the other hand, likes to throw out crisis after crisis in attempt to clean up the universe, which never really works, mainly because they have too many characters/books/writers.

Duncan_MacSmasher
2006-07-25, 02:25 PM
Back to Civil War: Why in the nine hells would Thor go pro-reg? It's totally and completely against his character.

Electric_Bard
2006-07-25, 04:34 PM
The link died! NOOOOO! I feel so out of the loop...

loial77
2006-07-25, 05:29 PM
Every so often, I read something, like the "Belkar isn't evil" arguments, that makes me think nothing I read online can surprise me anymore.

I am always wrong, and one day I will stop thinking that.



Of course Belkar isn't evil. He is actually lawful good. His aberrant behavior can be explained by the fact that he is actually a remnant from the original world, before that little crisis involving the snarl. He survived the destruction of his world in a small, Crayola-bounded pocket dimension, and now performs what you would call "evil" acts to inspire the rest of the party to a more pure form of heroism. I thought this was obvious.

Ing
2006-07-25, 07:56 PM
Back to Civil War: Why in the nine hells would Thor go pro-reg? It's totally and completely against his character.


He's an inside agent

Tiberian
2006-07-26, 01:15 AM
I'm not entirely sure what side Thor is on. I mean yeah, he appeared after SHIELD utilized Project (or whatever) Lightning, but couldn't Thor have caught the potentially lethal energy. Or am I missing something else. (I've only read the Spider-Man and Civil War #3)

KayJay
2006-07-26, 04:48 AM
True, but reurning to the staus quo and roll backs are two entirely different things. With possibly the exception of the Thanos story line, none of those things erased events in the past. Each either occurs in the future, and somehow affects the past. Those that occur in the present don't try to tie the universe together neatly, but cause new events. When you read the end of House of M for example, Peter Parker, Dr. Strange, and the rest of the players all remember M world. Granted, Hawk Eye comes back, but that was Wanda trying to fix a mistake she made. And while Hawk Eye came back, the entire mutant population was just about obliterated. The X-Men are now under lock and key. Oh, and there's a civil war.

DC on the other hand, likes to throw out crisis after crisis in attempt to clean up the universe, which never really works, mainly because they have too many characters/books/writers.

I don't really relate the current crisis to the first at all, as it seems to have been averted with only minimal changes occuring due to the fact that a year has gone by. Some heroes have died, new ones have come to light, but it was a giant retcon in the way the first one was, from what I've seen.

Also, about the Thor issue, there's no guarantee that Thor's "all there". I don't think he's said a word yet, so I wouldn't rule out mind control... If that's the case, then he'll probably defect to Cap's side once he snaps him out of it, which would actually make the fight between the two faction mildly equal... As it stands, Cap seems to be vastly outgunned.

Duncan_MacSmasher
2006-07-26, 09:38 AM
Tony will also be outgunned when Baron Zemo's army of super-villains shows up. But they better not resolve it as a, "lets set aside all of our differences that we've ever had and fight Zemo, and pretend none of this ever happened."

But, after Ragnarok, should Thor be a complete and total uber-god, now. Unless the Odinslumber that he took at the end turned him back to normal.

Duncan_MacSmasher
2006-07-26, 09:39 AM
The link died! *NOOOOO! *I feel so out of the loop...

Read Civil War #1, 2 and 3. You will most definately not be sorry.

Jarl
2006-07-27, 10:46 PM
In LoEG, all the heroes work for the government and that works out perfectly fine for them.
...
Okay, I couldn't say that with a straight face. In the third volume, they're supposed to be in active combat against the government itself, but the third volume was also supposed to... uh... be out by now. Oops.

-I've always thought about how Superheroes and governments would interact. The word "Poorly" comes immediately to mind.