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Niro
2010-05-21, 06:57 AM
I am toying around with the idea of creating a Whiplash-ish character (but with loads of AoOs and trips) and here is my problem:

Looking at the spiked chain.. it is a 2-hd weapon medium. My character is large and if he were to use a medium spiked chain.. Would he be allowed to use two at one time? Or should I use a small chain? (Or is it at all possible to dual wield spiked chains?)

elonin
2010-05-21, 07:00 AM
Not sure that the rules have anything to say about it. Strictly a dm question.

Niro
2010-05-21, 07:06 AM
What if I added "Monkey Grib"? That would in increase my spiked chain to the huge size.. but if I intead used a medium spiked chain.. My hands should be big enough to wield both weapons :\

Demons_eye
2010-05-21, 07:10 AM
Sadly it does not work that way. A two handed weapon is still two handed large or small.

What you need to another set of arms.

Boci
2010-05-21, 07:11 AM
The cavestalker PrC from Drows of the Underdark allows you to treat a spiked chain as 1 handed, so combined with oversized two weapon fighting and you can wield two spiked chains without any penalty.
Alternativly you can use the light weapon variant of the spiked chain in DMG. Same weapon, but damage is dropped to 1d4.


Sadly it does not work that way. A two handed weapon is still two handed large or small.

No, a medium two handed weapon counts as 1 handed for a large creature.

jokey665
2010-05-21, 07:11 AM
Sadly it does not work that way. A two handed weapon is still two handed large or small.

What you need to another set of arms.

Oh? Let's see what the SRD has to say:


The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

Niro
2010-05-21, 07:14 AM
Aww :(
Well I guess it sounded too goodt o be true. I gues I will have to stay with one spiked chain then.
Any ideas to the build? I was thinking to add "whirvelwind attack" to the mix so I can hit everything that my reach allows me to do
(I will probably get a keen spiked chain.. and some way of turning the damage type to slashing so I can add the vorpal enchantment too)

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-21, 07:16 AM
I've allowed a medium character to wield two small spiked chains in my game.

However, I've ruled that one of the benefits of the spiked chain is lost: you can't switch between reach and close up fighting with only one hand on the weapon.
That leaves you with a choice of holding one short and the other long, or both long, or both short.
So you can't unleash all the TWF, AoO cheese - just some of it.

The player in my game solved that by getting armour spikes.

Killer Angel
2010-05-21, 07:16 AM
Not only this.
Using a medium weapon if you are large, brings this:



Originally posted by srd:

Inappropriately Sized Weapons
A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder

Boci
2010-05-21, 07:18 AM
I've allowed a medium character to wield two small spiked chains in my game.

However, I've ruled that one of the benefits of the spiked chain is lost: you can't switch between reach and close up fighting with only one hand on the weapon.
That leaves you with a choice of holding one short and the other long, or both long, or both short.
So you can't unleash all the TWF, AoO cheese - just some of it.

The player in my game solved that by getting armour spikes.

So your nerfed a feat intensive and suboptimal combay style that is perfectly legal?

Ossian
2010-05-21, 07:20 AM
For a second I thought you were going to stat Shun of Andromeda...

http://dvd.es/data/docs/20051216010102/wp-shun.jpg

Well, Whiplash is also cool. I think you should treat the energy-whips as medium sized exotic weapons. The damage will be significantly higher. Say that they are high-enchantment weapons that deal 1d3+STR+5 (enchantment of the whip, ability to slash trhough armors etc...) +2d8 (energy damage) and ignore the DR of all materials (apart from the magic ones like adamantine, mithril etc...), a bit like the light-sabers in Star Wars d20). Reach is 15 feet.

With a feat for exotic weapon, and the 2-wf feats' tree, the light-whips are pretty feat-expensive but become a force to be reckoned with.

O.

crazedloon
2010-05-21, 07:21 AM
kusari-gama (ignored when mentioned before) it is a 1 handed weapon which deals 1d6 damage but works like a spiked chain (has reach threatens all ect) that is what you want, get proficiency in those and profit

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-21, 07:22 AM
So your nerfed a feat intensive and suboptimal combay style that is perfectly legal?
Nerfed? No, I allowed it. It's not "perfectly legal" - using the wrong sized weapon has penalties which I've waived for this character.

Anyway: tell me how, with one hand on the weapon, and the other one full, you change from attacking at reach to attacking close up.

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 07:24 AM
I thought the entire chain is attackable with. Sure, it's a little long, but the middle of the chain will hit you regardless.

jokey665
2010-05-21, 07:24 AM
Nerfed? No, I allowed it. It's not "perfectly legal" - using the wrong sized weapon has penalties which I've waived for this character.

Anyway: tell me how, with one hand on the weapon, and the other one full, you change from attacking at reach to attacking close up.

It's a flexible weapon, not a spear or halberd.

Niro
2010-05-21, 07:24 AM
Well it is a character to be used in a pathfinder gestalt campaign (So feats shouldnt be a problem).
the campaign is that worlds largest dungeon or something similar.
I read on this site that it could be pretty hard so I decided to create a hard-hitting character

crazedloon
2010-05-21, 07:25 AM
Anyway: tell me how, with one hand on the weapon, and the other one full, you change from attacking at reach to attacking close up.

your first problem is you are trying to apply logic to the most ridiculous weapon in dnd :smalltongue:

but in theory the chain is a flexible weapon so no matter where your opponent it you can whip it around your opponent and it bends to make contact (thus the threatening all squares). In contrast a spear if held only at 1 point (which dnd assumes) can only thrust in a certain area and thus only threatens that area, there is a dead zone on the haft because it is past the threat zone.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-21, 07:29 AM
Well it is a character to be used in a pathfinder gestalt campaign (So feats shouldnt be a problem).
the campaign is that worlds largest dungeon or something similar.
I read on this site that it could be pretty hard so I decided to create a hard-hitting character

In Pathfinder, the spiked chain isn't a reach weapon.

Boci
2010-05-21, 07:31 AM
Nerfed? No, I allowed it. It's not "perfectly legal" - using the wrong sized weapon has penalties which I've waived for this character.

Allowing them to do something far less optimal than dual wielding kusari-gama.


Anyway: tell me how, with one hand on the weapon, and the other one full, you change from attacking at reach to attacking close up.

You want me to explain my character's combat abilities? I'm sorry, I haven't studied martial combat with a chain for years. I cannot tell you. Do I get to ask the logci behind the monster you use as a DM?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-21, 07:33 AM
A reach weapon sized for a race smaller than your character does not grant you reach. I'm aware that FAQ =/= RAW, but consider the following:

How do reach weapons work if they are of a different
size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding
a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey
Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for
each situation?

A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but
only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the
wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach.
An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach
weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack
foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large
creature wielding a non-reach weapon).
A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach
weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further),
and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away
(as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A
human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach
from the weapon.
The PH isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an
example of reach in action on page 113 in the PH provides
pretty strong support: “A typical Large character wielding a
reach weapon *of the appropriate size* can attack a creature 15 or
20 feet away . . .” [asterisked added]. While this reference doesn’t
mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the
appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its
wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the
rule.

If a medium size reach weapon grants a medium size creature a 10 ft. reach, how would a medium size reach weapon extend a large creature's already 10 ft. reach to 20 ft.? The weapon does not miraculously extend in length to accommodate the wielder's reach. The only thing that may work would be a medium size creature wielding a reach weapon sized for a small creature, as both sizes have the same natural reach. As another example, there was something going on in the RPGA quite a while back where medium size characters were using a shield with a small longspear, which was ultimately ruled to not grant them anything more than their normal reach due to being an inappropriately sized weapon.

Niro
2010-05-21, 07:34 AM
In Pathfinder, the spiked chain isn't a reach weapon.

Well... damn. I dont have the sourcebook at hand.. Can someone tell me if that kusari-gama is a reach weapon in there?

Amphetryon
2010-05-21, 07:37 AM
Pathfinder SRD (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/). :smallsmile:

Daremonai
2010-05-21, 07:38 AM
I've allowed a medium character to wield two small spiked chains in my game.

However, I've ruled that one of the benefits of the spiked chain is lost: you can't switch between reach and close up fighting with only one hand on the weapon.
That leaves you with a choice of holding one short and the other long, or both long, or both short.
So you can't unleash all the TWF, AoO cheese - just some of it.

The player in my game solved that by getting armour spikes.

Hey! I'm withholding cheese by not becoming a rabid trip monster all the time, aren't I? (that and the twf penalties from wielding a not-light weapon)

It's just a flavour thing, because if real cheese was wanted, a normal-sized chain and the Improved Trip feat would be pure gorgonzola.

Niro
2010-05-21, 08:11 AM
So the spiked chain is out since we are playing pathfinder.. How about a Scorpion whip? Sure the damage is low but it is also a one handed weapon.
Could I use monkey grib to bump both whips damage up to largeor is it just one of them?

Boci
2010-05-21, 08:15 AM
So the spiked chain is out since we are playing pathfinder.. How about a Scorpion whip? Sure the damage is low but it is also a one handed weapon.
Could I use monkey grib to bump both whips damage up to largeor is it just one of them?

Monkey grip is generally not assumed to be worth it. Just take power attack, its more versatile. If you're dual wielding 1 handed weapons you will want oversized two weapon fighting from either complete adventurer or scoundrel to avoid the harsh penalties.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-21, 08:18 AM
if real cheese was wanted, a normal-sized chain and the Improved Trip feat would be pure gorgonzola.

You seem to have a quite different understanding of "cheese" than many fellows around here. Yet another reason why the word is insufferably useless.

Keld Denar
2010-05-21, 08:22 AM
Secrets of Sarlona, an Eberron book, has the Spinning Sword, a 1 handed slashing spiked chain that looks kinda like Ivy's sword from Soul Calibre. With Oversized TWF (CAdv), you could duel wield them with the same penalties as you'd have for a pair of light weapons, except being 1 handed, you could PA with them. Also, since they are slashing, you could head into the Dervish PrC.

There is also the Drow Scorpion Chain from the Eberron Campaign Setting, IIRC, which is a normal Spiked Chain that trades a smaller damage die for the slashing type and an expanded critical threat range. Not TWFable though.

Eldariel
2010-05-21, 08:32 AM
Secrets of Sarlona, an Eberron book, has the Spinning Sword, a 1 handed slashing spiked chain that looks kinda like Ivy's sword from Soul Calibre. With Oversized TWF (CAdv), you could duel wield them with the same penalties as you'd have for a pair of light weapons, except being 1 handed, you could PA with them. Also, since they are slashing, you could head into the Dervish PrC.

DMG has Kusari-Gama which is Light Tripping version of pretty much the same weapon; shorter crit range though. If possible, I'd just go with that, save a feat on OTWF and profit (though no PA, but two-weapon PA isn't the best thing ever anyways).

Niro
2010-05-21, 09:13 AM
Question about an enchantment... And I am talking about Speed. If I put that enchantment on both of my two scorpion whips.. Does that give me 2 attacks at my highest bonus or just 1 extra?

Daremonai
2010-05-21, 09:28 AM
You seem to have a quite different understanding of "cheese" than many fellows around here. Yet another reason why the word is insufferably useless.

Not so much, just as more of a relative term (relative to the average power of this particular game - Mr. Vexed is my DM). Nobody is particularly optimised or trying to be, and those of us who can optimise generally restrain ourselves. A TWF small-spiked-chain-wielding ranger/barbarian w/Combat reflexes that only trips occasionally is about par for the course - a build that had Improved Trip, a normal spiked chain and Power Attack that constantly tripped and PA'd would stomp all over everybody.

In our game, at least. Your mileage may vary.

aivanther
2010-05-21, 09:29 AM
I am toying around with the idea of creating a Whiplash-ish character (but with loads of AoOs and trips) and here is my problem:

Looking at the spiked chain.. it is a 2-hd weapon medium. My character is large and if he were to use a medium spiked chain.. Would he be allowed to use two at one time? Or should I use a small chain? (Or is it at all possible to dual wield spiked chains?)

Your solution is not a spiked chain, but a kusari-gama on page 145 of the DMG. One handed, light asian weapon that functions in pretty much every way like a spiked chain

edit: Swordsaged!

ZeroNumerous
2010-05-21, 09:32 AM
Anyway: tell me how, with one hand on the weapon, and the other one full, you change from attacking at reach to attacking close up.

He heard you liked whips (http://findingastrangerinthealps.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/indiana_jones_temple_of_doom.jpg). This guy has an entire clan of one-handed whippers (http://www.biocrawler.com/w/images/9/93/SimonBelmont.gif).

Point of order: The entire discussion is rendered extremely moot by either the Kusari-gama or the Cavestalker PrC. Both have been mentioned prior.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-21, 10:10 AM
TBH, I think Whiplash simply took a one-level splash in Pyrokeneticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm#fireLash). Create 2x Flame Lash, you are done. Specifically, the wording here:


The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet

So, it can hit anything inside 15'. Which means it can hit at 5' and 10' as well. So it's mechanically better than a chain whip (all touch attacks), can be dual-wielded without nonsense or cheese, and can otherwise do everything a whip can do (trip and disarm attacks).

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 10:17 AM
Question about an enchantment... And I am talking about Speed. If I put that enchantment on both of my two scorpion whips.. Does that give me 2 attacks at my highest bonus or just 1 extra?

It's a transmutation, not an enchantment.
It's a good idea to read the rules.
This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell. Is a second speed similar to the first speed? Seems pretty similar to me: that's one extra attack total.

Boci
2010-05-21, 10:23 AM
It's a good idea to read the rules. Is a second speed similar to the first speed? Seems pretty similar to me: that's one extra attack total.


There are some who argue that since it says similar and not the same, you should get 2 attacks. Its a decent houserule, but a houserule all the same.

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 10:41 AM
Abjuration?

What do you mean by that?

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 11:41 AM
Abjuration?

What do you mean by that?
Oops! I goofed. It's actually a transmutation. I'll go fix the original post.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-21, 01:32 PM
Abjuration?

What do you mean by that?

What he means is that the effect from a Weapon with the Speed enhancement is mechanically identical to the effect from a Haste spell, and thus does not stack with itself, or with the effects of a Haste spell or similar effects.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-21, 01:39 PM
There are some who argue that since it says similar and not the same, you should get 2 attacks.
Well, it's not the same, because it's speed (main hand) and speed (off hand). But those are awfully similar. :smallbiggrin:

Noedig
2010-05-21, 02:34 PM
TWF with a spiked chain looks and sounds cool, and I can see allowing it with appropriate sizing ect.

TWF a kusari gama on the other hand is a big negative. You cannot effectively use two of them at the same time in RL so you can't do it in my game.

2xMachina
2010-05-21, 02:43 PM
What he means is that the effect from a Weapon with the Speed enhancement is mechanically identical to the effect from a Haste spell, and thus does not stack with itself, or with the effects of a Haste spell or similar effects.

Ah, now I get the joke.

Boci
2010-05-21, 02:47 PM
TWF with a spiked chain looks and sounds cool, and I can see allowing it with appropriate sizing ect.

TWF a kusari gama on the other hand is a big negative. You cannot effectively use two of them at the same time in RL so you can't do it in my game.

In RL you won't survive 2 bashes from an ogre's club, to choose one of the more common examples.

Niro
2010-05-22, 09:17 PM
Okay after having evaluated my character concept (Working out stats, class synergy, enchantments and such) I have discovered that I have about 6 feats left.

The build I am going with is Fighter/Swordsage so maybe I should just check ToB for some good feats? Or do any of you have some great ideas.

As for my "spiked chains" I am going with Scorpion Whips (Technically 2
Speed, Keen, Vorpal, Shock, +5 scorpion whips) Should I add adamantine to the list for damage reduction or should this be enough?

Oh yeah and gear in general would be nice. I had my eyes on one of those nice "Belt of physical prowess" or something like that (I cant remember the name.. but that thing that gives +6 in both str, dex and con)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-22, 10:33 PM
Okay after having evaluated my character concept (Working out stats, class synergy, enchantments and such) I have discovered that I have about 6 feats left.

The build I am going with is Fighter/Swordsage so maybe I should just check ToB for some good feats? Or do any of you have some great ideas.

As for my "spiked chains" I am going with Scorpion Whips (Technically 2
Speed, Keen, Vorpal, Shock, +5 scorpion whips) Should I add adamantine to the list for damage reduction or should this be enough?

Oh yeah and gear in general would be nice. I had my eyes on one of those nice "Belt of physical prowess" or something like that (I cant remember the name.. but that thing that gives +6 in both str, dex and con)

Umm your scorpion whips are like +14 ergo impossible pre epic, my recomendation go +1 transmuting (MIC) metalline (MIC) speed, collision (XPH & SRD) scorpion whips (total +10) Transmuting bypass ANY type of DR after a hit, metalline is to change the material of the weapon as a standard action collision is a flat +5 damage (which is multiplied on crits)

and the benefit of keen you can get it with a feat (improved critical)

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-23, 02:55 AM
Okay after having evaluated my character concept (Working out stats, class synergy, enchantments and such) I have discovered that I have about 6 feats left.

The build I am going with is Fighter/Swordsage so maybe I should just check ToB for some good feats? Or do any of you have some great ideas.

As for my "spiked chains" I am going with Scorpion Whips (Technically 2
Speed, Keen, Vorpal, Shock, +5 scorpion whips) Should I add adamantine to the list for damage reduction or should this be enough?

Oh yeah and gear in general would be nice. I had my eyes on one of those nice "Belt of physical prowess" or something like that (I cant remember the name.. but that thing that gives +6 in both str, dex and con)

1) Keen and Vorpal cannot benefit the same weapon
1a) Even if they did, Vorpal only activates on a natural 20, not on any critical hit, thus it would do you no good anyways.
2) Speed enhancement does not stack with itself, thus it is a waste of money to have more than one
3) a +5 is a complete waste of money, as it can be duplicated with a 3rd level spell
4) As was previously mentioned, you have a +14 total enhancement bonus, and would need to be approximately level 32 to be able to afford two of them, using the WBL table.


In other words: "Morbo say enhancements do not work this way!"