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DracoDei
2010-05-21, 09:42 PM
I did a "pick-up battle" with very little plot to test one of my previous creations.

I need help interpreting the logs to see if the CR 2 is correct for the 2 Small Smokey Floaters I used.

Given the rarity of play-test data around here, I welcome tips on my formatting of this message, in addition to how to tweak the monster (especially the CR).

I am especially wondering how much I should be expected to "clean up" the log (Deleting times and removing rules discussions etc), and whether I was correct to keep in the stuff before initiative (which I had pre-rolled) took effect. EDIT: Putting in a marker to that effect... look for:
-----INITIATIVE TAKES EFFECT HERE-----

Short version Monster here:
Small to Large Smokey Floaters

{table="head"]~| Smokey Floater, Small | Smokey Floater, Medium | Smokey Floater, Large
Size and Type | Small Elemental (Air, Fire*, Extraplanar) | Medium Elemental (Air, Fire*, Extraplanar) | Large Elemental (Air, Fire*, Extraplanar)
HD | 2d8 (13 hp) | 4d8+12 (32 hp) | 8d8+32 (68 hp)
Speed | Fly 50 ft. (10 squares, perfect) | Fly 50 ft. (10 squares, perfect) |Fly 50 ft. (10 squares, perfect)
Init | +3 | +5 | +7
AC | 14 (+1 size, +3 dex), touch 14, flat-footed 11 | 12 (+5 Dex); touch 12; flat-footed 10 |12 (+7 Dex, -1 size, +1 natural); touch 11; flat-footed 10|12 (+3 Dex, -2 size, +1 natural); touch 11; flat-footed 21|23 (+4 Dex, -2 size, +11 natural); touch 12; flat-footed 21|23 (+4 Dex, -2 size, +13 natural); touch 12; flat-footed 23
BAB | +1 | +3 | +6
Grp | -4 | +3 | +11
Attack | Slam +5 melee (1d4-1) | Slam +8 melee (1d6) | Slam +12 melee (2d6+1)
Full Attack | Slam +5 melee (1d4-1) | Slam +8 melee (1d6) | 2 Slams +12 melee (2d6+1)
Space/Reach | 5 ft./5 ft. | 5 ft./5 ft. | 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks | Smoke Inhalation | Smoke Inhalation | Smoke Inhalation
Special Qualities|Smoke Form, DR 5/Metal, Stone, or Water, elemental traits, Cold Tolerance|Smoke Form, DR 5/Metal, Stone, or Water, elemental traits, Cold Tolerance|Smoke Form, Damage Reduction 5/-, Damage Reduction 15/Metal, Stone, or Water, elemental traits, Cold Tolerance
Saves | Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +1 | Fort +3, Ref +7, Will +2 | Fort +5, Ref +11, Will +3
Abilities | Str 8, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 13 | Str 10, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 13 | Str 12, Dex 25, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 13
Skills | Tumble +6, Listen +3|Tumble +9, Listen +4 | Tumble +11, Listen +5, Spot +4 | Tumble +17, Listen +8, Spot +6
Feats | Dodge, Weapon Finesse (B) | Dodge, Fly-by Attack, Weapon Finesse (B) | Dodge, Mobility, Fly-by Attack, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment | Urban, Volcanic, Forest Fire, or Elemental Plane of Fire| Urban, Volcanic, Forest Fire, or Elemental Plane of Fire|Urban, Volcanic, Forest Fire, or Elemental Plane of Fire
Organization | Solitary? | Solitary? | Solitary|
Challenge Rating | 2? | 5? | 7?
Treasure | 10% chance of Flint and Steel | Special (See Below) | Special (See Below)
Alignment | Usually True Neutral, Never Good | Usually True Neutral, Never Good |Usually True Neutral, Never Good|Usually True Neutral, Never Good|Usually True Neutral, Never Good|Usually True Neutral, Never Good
Advancement | 3 HD (Small) | 5-6 HD (Medium) |9-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment|~|~|~[/table]
* Although their relationship to fire makes them immune to being injured by it, and effects how certain spells and domain abilities work in relation to them, Smokey Floaters take no additional damage from [Cold] spells and effects.

Smokey Floaters speak Auran and Ignan, those with Integences of 12 or above usually speak the most common language of the urban area they live above.

<Fluff snipped>
Smoke Form (Su)
When it wishes to a Smokey Floater can become more or less solid (with the statistics listed above), but its most natural state is actually a smoke form. It can switch forms once per round as a free action and can spend as long as it wishes in either form. The ability is otherwise similar to a Gaseous Form spell (caster level equal to hitdice, minium 5) with the following exceptions

Flight speed is unchanged
Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Field, and even Mage's Disjunction do not cause a form change. An Anti-Magic Field does, however prevent a Smokey Floater from changing forms, and negate the Damage Reduction granted by that effect.
Gargantuan and Collosal Smokey Floaters gain DR 20/Epic instead of DR 10/Magic.

Smoke Inhalation (Su)
A Smokey Floater in smoke form (see above) can engulf opponents by moving on top of them. It fills the air around one or more opponents, each of whom must be to 3 size catagories larger than it or smaller, without provoking an attack of opportunity. The target must succeed on a Fortitude save with DC given on the following table or inhale part of the creature. The save DC is constitution-based and includes a +3 racial bonus. An affected creature can attempt another Fortitude save each subsequent round to cough out the semivaporous menace, but the DC increases by +1 per previous check. If they fail they spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 or more consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who chokes for a number of consecutive rounds equal to half his constitution score also takes 1 point of constitution damage each round from carbon monoxide and other toxins. Creatures immune to poison, but which still need to breath, take only the subdual damage, not the constitution damage. Delay Poison has no effect, but Remove Poison, Heal, Detoxify(Eberron), and other spells that remove poison force the Smokey Floater to make a will save (DC as if the spell in question were an offensive spell) for each creature it is currently in the lungs of or be expelled from that creature. There is no effect on a successful save.
Size|Initial DC
Diminutive |12
Tiny |13
Small |14
Medium |17
Large |20
Huge |25
Gargantuan |33
Collossal |49


Cold Tolerance(Ex)
Smokey Floaters of Large or smaller size can be quite comfortable even in the skies over alpine villages. They are as well protected from mundane cold as if they had a Protection from Elements spell on them. In addition (as noted in several other places and regardless of size), their fire nature does NOT cause them to take extra damage from cold.




Zyborg: Spider-form(homebrew) Warforged 4th level Rogue http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=32934

Robin: Half-White Dragon with 3 Commoner levels instead of LA. 1st level Enchanter http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27913 (Note that I apply all bonus spell slots of levels the character can't cast yet to the highest spell-level they CAN cast, which makes this class/race combination much more viable.)

Spheniscine: 1 Racial HD, 3rd level Sword-sage. http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=30107



Initiative order:
Zyborg
Spheniscine
Robin
2 Smokey Floaters, Small


Robin's Spells prepared:
0th:Daze, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Mage Hand

1st: Charm Person x2, Chill Touch, Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self, Silent Image



Log of Combat

[20:17] <~DracoDei> REALLY breif backstory: Wizard summoned something that was too powerful for him, ran out, shut and barricaded the door behind him. Left on a journey. Apprentice told not to open the door until a certain time, and to have the room cleaned up by the time he got back OR ELSE.
[20:18] <RobinFiredrake> Ooooh, demon-slaying...
[20:18] <~DracoDei> Apprentice hears rumor that Wizard returning early, decides to get you to take care of the thing(s).
[20:18] * RobinFiredrake nods
[20:19] <~DracoDei> You are standing in a stone-block passageway, an iron door is in front of you. You have no spells active, and no spells cast.
[20:20] <RobinFiredrake> "Do we go in, do you think?"
[20:22] <Zyborg22> Maybe if we're ready.
[20:23] * RobinFiredrake knocks on the door
[20:25] <~DracoDei> Short-cutting: Two voices, neither of you speaks either of the two languages they do.
[20:26] * RobinFiredrake opens the door, though he hides behind it as he does so, not wanting to be in sight so easily.
[20:26] <~DracoDei> The door seems slightly stuck, going to apply a bit of muscle?
[20:27] <~DracoDei> Where are you standing Zyborg?
[20:27] <RobinFiredrake> Yes. Time to put that bonus strength I got from being half dragon to good use, I suppose.
[20:27] <~DracoDei> Ok, you open the door (not going to bother rolling).
[20:28] <Zyborg22> ((I guess a bit behind Robin))
[20:30] <~DracoDei> Back up a second: Robin, you made a mistake.
[20:30] <RobinFiredrake> I did?
[20:30] <~DracoDei> Look at your spells prepared...
[20:32] <RobinFiredrake> I can't. I can't log into my TW account.
[20:32] <RobinFiredrake> Link?
[20:32] <~DracoDei> http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27913
[20:34] == Spheniscine [[email protected]] has joined #DracoD&D
[20:35] <Spheniscine> Hello.
[20:35] <RobinFiredrake> Thakns
[20:35] <~DracoDei> Spheniscine shows up right as Robin does something.
[20:35] <RobinFiredrake> Ah.
[20:35] <Spheniscine> (Sorry I'm late... I actually dreamt it was Sunday...)
[20:35] * RobinFiredrake casts comprehend languages
[20:35] <~DracoDei> ((We are doing a non-canonical "pick-up battle" with your main-game characters.))
[20:36] <Spheniscine> (Oh, OK)
[20:36] <Zyborg22> ((Do we get to keep stuff we find here, though :P ?))
[20:36] <RobinFiredrake> (Non-canonical)
[20:36] <Spheniscine> (What are we fighting right now?)
[20:36] *GameServ* dice 1d20
[20:36] -GameServ- Invalid command. Use /msg GameServ help for a command listing.
[20:36] <RobinFiredrake> "Hello! Is anyone there?"
[20:36] *GameServ* roll 1d20
[20:36] -GameServ- 11 == 11
[20:37] <~DracoDei> ...so if you aren't him, just open the door and leave!
[20:37] <~DracoDei> ((Remember this is *Comprehend Languages* not *Tongues*))
[20:40] * RobinFiredrake opens the door. "Erhem... I am sorry, come again?"
[20:40] <~DracoDei> Open. The. Door. Please.
[20:40] * RobinFiredrake cups his hand over his ear, to signal his intent
[20:40] <RobinFiredrake> "It's open."
[20:40] <~DracoDei> ((No it isn't, we retconned that... but you can open it now if you like.))
[20:41] <~DracoDei> Spheniscine: I sent you the important MOST important parts of what happened, where are you standing while Robin is using *Comprehend Languages* to talk through the door?
[20:42] <Spheniscine> Far away, I guess? (Yeah, I'm a coward... X3)
[20:42] * RobinFiredrake opens the door a sliver, peeking inside the crack to see what lies within
[20:45] <~DracoDei> Ok, everyone but Robin is "frozen" (not an in-game effect, just he is the only one who can do much right now).
[20:45] <Spheniscine> (Guess I'm not the only one... lol)
[20:46] <RobinFiredrake> "Hello? Anyone in there?"
[20:46] <~DracoDei> Robin: You see two amorphous gray begins, shaped a bit like Genie from Alladin (one head, two arms, no legs).
[20:46] <~DracoDei> They are floating right outside the door.
[20:47] <~DracoDei> *beings
[20:47] <~DracoDei> Go. Now.
[20:49] <~DracoDei> ((You notice a line of solid wax running down the edge of the door. Looks like it was bridging the space between the door and the frame.
[20:49] <~DracoDei> ))
[20:49] <Zyborg22> ((By frozen, do you mean literally?))
[20:49] <Spheniscine> ((He already said it isn't))
[20:49] * RobinFiredrake shuts the door. "The door was sealed with wax. I think the thingies aren't supposed to get out... Prepare for battle, I suppose."
[20:49] <~DracoDei> ((No. Literally would be an "in game" effect.))
-----INITIATIVE TAKES EFFECT HERE-----
[20:49] <~DracoDei> What do you each do immediately?
[20:50] <RobinFiredrake> I hide near the door hinge, so I'll be covered when the door is opened.
[20:51] <Spheniscine> I, erm, ready my crossbow? (not sure whether that can hurt them though...)
[20:51] <Zyborg22> So do I, since Sphen isn't getting close.
[20:51] <~DracoDei> "Lets get out of here quick"
[20:54] * RobinFiredrake readies his crossbow
[20:56] <~DracoDei> Ok, a cloud of amorphous smoke pours out of the door and then moves south to envelop Robin. Make a DC 14 Fortitude save.
[20:56] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[20:56] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 5; Total: 5.
[20:56] <RobinFiredrake> 10 total. Crud.
[20:57] <~DracoDei> A second one then moves through the door and envelops Zyborg to no effect.
[20:57] <Zyborg22> ((Do I know that the effect is poison?))
[20:57] <~DracoDei> Both of you may AoO the first one if you like, with natural weapons or unarmed attacks.
[21:01] <~DracoDei> Robin: Roll a claw attack unless there is some reason you wouldn't when it moved into your space...
[21:02] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[21:02] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 1; Total: 1.
[21:02] <RobinFiredrake> Missed. No use rolling the next.
[21:03] <~DracoDei> Zyborg: Roll your unarmed attack.
[21:03] <Zyborg22> dice 1d20
[21:03] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 13; Total: 13.
[21:03] <Zyborg22> ((20))
[21:03] <~DracoDei> ((21 actually))
[21:04] <Zyborg22> ((Ok))
[21:04] <~DracoDei> You might as well be punching fog, your fist goes right through it without effect.
((Damage reduction^))
[21:05] <~DracoDei> Round 2... Initiative Order is: Zyborg, Spheniscine, Robin Firedrake, Monsters of the week.
[21:07] <~DracoDei> Robin and #1 are 5 east of Zyborg. #2 is in Zyborg's square, having tried to shove itself into his throat... found out he doesn't have one, Spheniscine is 25 feet north of Zyborg, Zyborg and Sphenscine both have the same wall to the wests.
[21:07] <~DracoDei> 10 foot wide corridor.
[21:08] <Zyborg22> I'm going to try a Cold Iron arrow against the one in front of me, just in case that works.
[21:08] <~DracoDei> Roll to hit.
[21:08] <Zyborg22> dice 1d20
[21:08] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 19; Total: 19.
[21:09] <Zyborg22> ((27))
[21:09] <~DracoDei> You hit again, to equally little effect. ((Damage reduction))
[21:09] <~DracoDei> ((Wait...))
[21:09] <~DracoDei> Roll to confirm critical...
[21:09] <Zyborg22> dice 1d20
[21:09] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 20; Total: 20.
[21:10] <Zyborg22> ((With the crossbow?))
[21:10] <~DracoDei> Well, that WOULD have been a vital area... on something that actually has vitals...
[21:10] <Zyborg22> ((Let's try to flank this thing))
[21:11] <Spheniscine> (nods)
[21:14] <~DracoDei> SPHENISCINE!
[21:15] <Spheniscine> "Hmm... this things seem to be immune to our boring physical attacks. Let's try something a little more shocking, eh?"
[21:15] * Spheniscine initiates Unlucky Raincloud
[21:16] <~DracoDei> Roll to hit... -4 for shooting into melee.
[21:16] <Spheniscine> dice 1d20
[21:16] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 8; Total: 8.
[21:16] <Spheniscine> Grah.
[21:18] <~DracoDei> Miss.
[21:18] <~DracoDei> ROBIN (Make a fortitude save).
[21:19] <~DracoDei> DC 15 this time.
[21:19] <Spheniscine> (brb)
[21:19] <~DracoDei> Eh... I will roll it...
[21:19] <~DracoDei> dice 1d20
[21:19] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 19; Total: 19.
[21:19] <~DracoDei> Robin coughs out the semi-vaporous menace.
[21:20] <RobinFiredrake> I'm back, sorry.
[21:20] <~DracoDei> ((Yeah, your turn... and because you made the fortitude save you actually GET a turn...))
[21:20] * RobinFiredrake attempts to move away from the creature
[21:20] <RobinFiredrake> ((If I hadn't, I'd be dead.))
[21:20] <RobinFiredrake> ((Or possessed?)
[21:20] <~DracoDei> Ok, where are you going to?
[21:21] <~DracoDei> ((No, you just would have spend the round coughing and choking.))
[21:21] <~DracoDei> These things smell like smoke BTW...
[21:21] <RobinFiredrake> Towards Zyborg
[21:24] <RobinFiredrake> 30 and cast Silent Image
[21:30] <~DracoDei> Robin hears the one on Zyborg say: "Don't bother trying to smother this one."
[21:31] <RobinFiredrake> (Djinni hate Efreet, right?)
[21:32] <~DracoDei> ((Yes, but you might not know that... and if you did, you would probably also know that these aren't Djinni.))
[21:32] <~DracoDei> Roll me a Knowledge(The Planes) to see if you recognize what they ARE....
[21:32] <Zyborg22> ((You could listen to them and hope they're stupid enough to discuss what they hate :P ))
[21:33] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[21:33] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 17; Total: 17.
[21:33] <RobinFiredrake> 23
[21:34] <Spheniscine> There, good roll. :p
[21:34] <RobinFiredrake> (FINALLY. Smarts, that's what I can do.)
[21:35] <~DracoDei> Very good roll...
[21:35] <~DracoDei> I am going to assume you start motor-mouthing in common.
[21:35] <~DracoDei> So everyone ends up knowing this.
[21:35] <RobinFiredrake> Very likely, yes.
[21:35] <~DracoDei> These are Smokey Floaters.
[21:36] <~DracoDei> They are a rare type of elemental that is actually found more-often on the Prime Material Plane than on their home at the Elemental Plane of Smoke between the Elemental Planes of Fire and Air.
[21:37] <~DracoDei> They feed on smoke, and have been known to set fires to feed themselves. Despite this, they are usually neutral in alignment.
[21:38] <~DracoDei> They can force themselves into the lungs and suffocate people.
[21:38] <~DracoDei> ((Incidently, these are Small sized.))
[21:39] <Spheniscine> ((Hmm... I guess there goes my idea of using Burning Blade then...))
[21:39] <RobinFiredrake> ((Hmm... But what hurts them?))
[21:39] <Zyborg22> ((Can they do anything other than smother people?))
[21:39] <~DracoDei> In their current form (they went gaseous...) they have DR 10/magic.
[21:39] <~DracoDei> In their normal forms (the ones you saw them in first), they have DR 5/metal, stone, or water.
[21:41] <~DracoDei> They have the [Fire] type.
[21:41] <RobinFiredrake> So we attempt to blast them with ice magic?
[21:41] <~DracoDei> In there normal forms they attack with slams.
[21:41] <~DracoDei> Yes... which you happen to be able to do 1/day...
[21:42] <RobinFiredrake> Not quite ^.=.^
[21:43] <RobinFiredrake> Can I attempt to step a few feet closer (Say, five) and use cone of cold?
[21:43] <~DracoDei> You would be not moving as far in the first place, but yes.
[21:44] <RobinFiredrake> Right. I do that, then.
[21:44] <~DracoDei> Going to include both of them at the cost of also hitting Zyborg potentially?
[21:45] <~DracoDei> He DOES have a decent reflex save and Evasion...
[21:46] <RobinFiredrake> I attempt it anyway. He can live with it, at the cost of being one of the very few spells we have that could hurt these things. Especially both at once.
[21:46] <~DracoDei> ((Not a spell.))
[21:46] <~DracoDei> Dice 1d20
[21:46] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 18; Total: 18.
[21:46] <~DracoDei> Dice 1d20
[21:46] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 12; Total: 12.
[21:46] <RobinFiredrake> Spell-like ability.
[21:47] <RobinFiredrake> Or whatnot.
[21:47] <Hyperion> ((What'd I miss?))
[21:47] <RobinFiredrake> Once a day, same effect as a lot of spells.
[21:48] <~DracoDei> Both of them evade the worst of it.
[21:48] <RobinFiredrake> (( We're not doing the main story))
[21:48] <Zyborg22> dice 1d20
[21:48] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 4; Total: 4.
[21:48] <RobinFiredrake> ((Rats...))
[21:48] <RobinFiredrake> ((That hurt more than helped.))
[21:48] <~DracoDei> Dice 6d8
[21:48] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 2:5:2:7:1:7; Total: 24.
[21:48] <RobinFiredrake> ((A LOT more.))
[21:48] <Zyborg22> ((13))
[21:49] <Spheniscine> Ow.
[21:49] <~DracoDei> Zyborg actually BARELY makes it...
[21:49] <RobinFiredrake> ... At least he respects my abilities a bit more now?
[21:49] <~DracoDei> Zyborg takes no damage.
[21:49] <RobinFiredrake> Oh.
[21:50] <RobinFiredrake> I thought you meant barely survives ^.=.^;
[21:50] <~DracoDei> The Smokey Floaters each take 12 points of damage.
[21:50] <Zyborg22> I've always respected your abilities to some degree.
[21:50] <Hyperion> ((More playtesting?))
[21:50] <Hyperion> ((More playtesting))
[21:50] <Hyperion> ((Right. Don't think I'm quite required, so I'm going to log off to go have dinner with the family.))
[21:51] <~DracoDei> The amorphous globs of smoke (no arms or other features right now) appear to be in noticably bad shape...
[21:51] <Spheniscine> ((Bye. :3))
[21:51] <~DracoDei> But not as much as you would expect them to be actually...
[21:51] <~DracoDei> They actually take only normal damage from Cold, not extra.
[21:51] == Hyperion [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: To dinner, awaaaaay.]
[21:51] <RobinFiredrake> ((Bye.))
[21:51] <RobinFiredrake> ((Rats...))
[21:52] <RobinFiredrake> And, their turn now?
[21:52] <~DracoDei> Which Robin wasn't QUITE smart enough to remember.
[21:52] <~DracoDei> Yes, it is.
[21:53] <~DracoDei> ((If this were a regular game I would have them flee right now... since this is a CR test...))
[21:54] <RobinFiredrake> ((CR test, not a clue what that means... I thought they'd flee cause they weren't both expecting to get hit by ice from a guy they almost smothered.)
[21:55] <~DracoDei> #1 turns solid and moves up to the ceiling (no mechanical effect).
[21:56] <~DracoDei> Then moves past Spheniscine and Robin (AoOs from each), down again. Ending the turn to Robin's north.
[21:56] <Spheniscine> Since he's solid, I guess I'll try my maul.
[21:56] <~DracoDei> The second one moves 5' south. Turns solid and attacks.
[21:57] <~DracoDei> Spheniscine: You never specified switching to the maul...
[21:57] <Spheniscine> Oh...
[21:57] <Spheniscine> What can I attack with then?
[21:57] <~DracoDei> ((I am being a bit harsher here that I would be in the main game with the rules.))
[21:58] <Spheniscine> Heh...
[21:58] <~DracoDei> Your fist... which can't hurt it, so never mind...
[21:58] <Spheniscine> (lol)
[21:58] <~DracoDei> Robin: Roll a claw attack.
[21:59] <~DracoDei> Actually....
[21:59] <~DracoDei> dice 1d20
[21:59] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 3; Total: 3.
[21:59] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[21:59] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 10; Total: 10.
[21:59] <RobinFiredrake> Oh?
[21:59] <~DracoDei> Eh, I was trying to use it, but we will use yours.
[21:59] <RobinFiredrake> ... I like my roll better...
[21:59] <RobinFiredrake> Thanks.
[22:00] <~DracoDei> Your 14 misses.
[22:00] <~DracoDei> Barely...
[22:00] <~DracoDei> Rolling for the one attacking Zyborg.
[22:00] <~DracoDei> dice 1d20
[22:00] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 8; Total: 8.
[22:01] <~DracoDei> Miss.
[22:01] <~DracoDei> ZYBORG!
[22:01] <WagzBot> Your friendly neighborhood robot spider.
[22:02] <Zyborg22> I switch to the rapier. How close am I to the nearest enemy?
[22:02] <~DracoDei> 5' north of the nearest one.
[22:02] <Zyborg22> I'm probably not allowed to attack now, am I?
[22:03] <~DracoDei> Actually... we will say it is to your north-east.
[22:03] <~DracoDei> You can drop the crossbow(free action), draw your rapier(move action, and attack(standard action).
[22:04] <Zyborg22> Alright. I do that.
[22:04] <~DracoDei> Roll it.
[22:04] <Zyborg22> dice 1d20
[22:04] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 12; Total: 12.
[22:04] <Zyborg22> (20)
[22:04] <~DracoDei> Hit, roll damage.
[22:05] <Zyborg22> dice 1d6
[22:05] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 3; Total: 3.
[22:05] <~DracoDei> It is down.
[22:06] <~DracoDei> SPHENISCINE!
[22:06] <Spheniscine> I use my maul.
[22:07] <Spheniscine> "Oh let me be... DUN! Your sledgehammer!"
[22:07] <Spheniscine> "This will be my testimony!"
[22:08] <~DracoDei> ((Your frying pan, combined with Everyday Arsenal, might have been a better choice... would you like to use *Stone Bones*?))
[22:08] <~DracoDei> You drop your crossbow, 5 step north and attack (maybe normally, maybe with Stone Bones))
[22:08] <Spheniscine> I guess I'll use Stone Bones. :3
[22:09] <Spheniscine> dice 1d20
[22:09] <~DracoDei> Roll to hit.
[22:09] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 10; Total: 10.
[22:09] <~DracoDei> Ok
[22:09] <~DracoDei> Miss.
[22:09] <~DracoDei> ROBIN!
[22:09] <Zyborg22> "Was that supposed to be a pun?"
[22:09] <Spheniscine> "Maybe?"
[22:10] == Zyborg22 has changed nick to Awayborg
[22:10] <Awayborg> ((Be right back))
[22:10] <RobinFiredrake> I move towards one, and cast chill touch. Do I have to attempt a save from Spheniscine's pun?
[22:10] <Spheniscine> (lol)
[22:10] <~DracoDei> No... you have been immunized.
[22:11] <~DracoDei> You are already right next to one, and it gets an AoO for you casting within its reach.
[22:12] <RobinFiredrake> Well... I still attempt it? It can only try to smother me, correct?
[22:12] <~DracoDei> Not smother, slam, but sure.
[22:12] <~DracoDei> dice 1d20
[22:12] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 15; Total: 15.
[22:13] <~DracoDei> dice 1d4
[22:13] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 1; Total: 1.
[22:13] <RobinFiredrake> :(
[22:13] <~DracoDei> You take one point of damage.
[22:13] <RobinFiredrake> I poke it with a snowflake.
[22:13] <RobinFiredrake> Wait, me?
[22:13] <RobinFiredrake> Well... That isn't too terribly bad.
[22:13] <~DracoDei> Make a Concentration check.
[22:13] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[22:13] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 10; Total: 10.
[22:13] <RobinFiredrake> 13
[22:13] <RobinFiredrake> Crud.
[22:14] <~DracoDei> That is sufficent... DC is 10+damage dealt... so 11 in this case.
[22:14] <~DracoDei> Roll to hit.
[22:15] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[22:15] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 3; Total: 3.
[22:15] <RobinFiredrake> I don't know what the mod is, but it isn't enough.
[22:16] <~DracoDei> Yes, you miss... but your next attack to land will deliver the spell...
[22:16] <RobinFiredrake> Ah. Good.
[22:18] <~DracoDei> See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#touchSpellsinCombat
[22:19] <~DracoDei> #1 turns gaseous again and moves to overlap Robin.
[22:20] <~DracoDei> DC 14 Fortitude save.
[22:20] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[22:20] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 3; Total: 3.
[22:20] <~DracoDei> dice 1d10
[22:20] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 4; Total: 4.
[22:20] <RobinFiredrake> Uuuugh...
[22:20] <~DracoDei> #2 bleeds.
[22:20] <~DracoDei> ZYBORG!
[22:20] <WagzBot> Your friendly neighborhood robot spider.
[22:20] <RobinFiredrake> Wouldn't it be in it's best interest NOT to be in there, being cold and all?
[22:21] <~DracoDei> Your LUNGS aren't THAT cold... frost-breath comes from some place else.
[22:22] <RobinFiredrake> I'm cold to the touch, am I not? I wasn't thinking of just the breath.
[22:22] <~DracoDei> #2 floats up to the ceiling BTW... unconcious or dead...
[22:22] * DracoDei shrugs and smiles mysteriously.
[22:23] <RobinFiredrake> Also... It's touching me. Shouldn't the spell discharge?
[22:24] <~DracoDei> Doesn't work like that...
[22:24] <~DracoDei> Ah... Zyborg is away...
[22:24] <RobinFiredrake> That's really weird... If it touches my outside, it gets hit. Inside, not so much. Very very strange..
[22:25] <~DracoDei> Zyborg charges it to no effect.
[22:26] <~DracoDei> No... it could slam attack you without getting hit...
[22:26] <~DracoDei> For these purposes touching someone is not the same as being touched by them...
[22:26] <RobinFiredrake> .It says touching accidental or otherwise...
[22:26] <RobinFiredrake> Oh.
[22:27] <~DracoDei> SPHENISCINE!
[22:28] <Spheniscine> I use my frying pan. :3
[22:29] <Spheniscine> "Out of the fire, into the frying pan?"
[22:29] <Spheniscine> dice 1d20
[22:29] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 12; Total: 12.
[22:29] == Awayborg has changed nick to Zyborg22
[22:30] <Zyborg22> "There was a fire?"
[22:31] <Spheniscine> "These are fire creatures... yeah, I'm stretching..."
[22:31] <RobinFiredrake> "HALF fire creatures. Fire and air, remember?"
[22:32] * Spheniscine sticks a tongue at Robin
[22:32] <Zyborg22> "Technically, they're smoke creatures. I guess it wouldn't work with smoke, though."
[22:34] <~DracoDei> That hits.
[22:34] <~DracoDei> Roll damage.
[22:37] <Spheniscine> dice 1d6
[22:37] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 4; Total: 4.
[22:37] <~DracoDei> It floats up to the ceiling.
[22:37] <~DracoDei> What next?
[22:37] <~DracoDei> Neither of them are moving.
[22:38] <RobinFiredrake> What would I roll to check and see if they're alive?
[22:39] <~DracoDei> Heal
[22:40] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[22:40] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 1; Total: 1.
[22:40] <RobinFiredrake> 2.
[22:40] <RobinFiredrake> Blah
[22:41] <~DracoDei> Make a DC 10 Wisdom Check...
[22:41] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d10
[22:41] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 1; Total: 1.
[22:41] <RobinFiredrake> 2
[22:41] <RobinFiredrake> x.=.x
[22:41] <RobinFiredrake> What is it that makes dice hate me? Am I a god of unluckiness unawares, like the rain guy in guide to the galaxy?
[22:42] == Hyperion [[email protected]] has joined #DracoD&D
[22:43] * Spheniscine hugs Robin
[22:43] <~DracoDei> Not on a 10 sided die... DC 10...
[22:43] <Spheniscine> Er, yeah.
[22:43] <~DracoDei> So roll a d20.
[22:44] <RobinFiredrake> Oh.
[22:44] <RobinFiredrake> dice 1d20
[22:44] <WagzBot> Results of die roll(s): 2; Total: 2.
[22:44] <RobinFiredrake> ...
[22:44] <Zyborg22> LOL
[22:44] <Hyperion> Ey?
[22:44] <~DracoDei> You believe them to have entered a state of Undeath upon dying.
[22:44] <RobinFiredrake> Idjit mage.


Summary of resources expended: (all actually from Robin Firedrake) 1 hitpoint of damage, Daily use of Frost-breath, and Chill Touch.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-25, 02:53 PM
Sorry Draco, but I really know next to nothing about DMing or what use these could be. Sorry.

In theory, though, the DMG gives figures on how much should be expended in a battle of a given CR and what the odds of winning should be. Seems like the best way to do this is to run the battle repeatedly and see what it averages to... difficult to do, however.

DracoDei
2010-05-25, 03:08 PM
Everyone is so hungry for actual test data, I thought people would be overjoyed to see some, even if it wasn't for their own stuff... 100+ views and no to-the-point replies make it seem a bit hypocritical or something... not that I am blaming Dragoon-Wraith, he actually replied, even if he didn't seem to understand what I was asking, and he doesn't even seem to design monsters so he couldn't be expected to know as much about balancing them.



Sorry Draco, but I really know next to nothing about DMing
This isn't a GMing question. This is a monster design question. If it helps, you-personally can assume that, given the number and type of the monsters involved, I ran the encounter itself exactly right. Others can comment on if I should have used different terrain or had them act differently in combat.

or what use these could be. Sorry.
What do you mean by "these"? The monsters? I wasn't asking for tactical or atmospheric advice, I was quite simply asking if I got the CR right, based on the test-data.


In theory, though, the DMG gives figures on how much should be expended in a battle of a given CR and what the odds of winning should be. Seems like the best way to do this is to run the battle repeatedly and see what it averages to... difficult to do, however.

The DMG says "1/4 of the parties resources" for a EL = Average Party Level fight against a 4 member party.

Running it repeatedly isn't really an option, and even LESS so if we can't figure out how to interpret the results of ONE such combat.

Debihuman
2010-05-25, 04:15 PM
Okay, so your party used up all of its resources in one encounter. However looking at the details, your party didn't have a standard Fighter, Thief, Wizard, and Cleric. Moreover, the spells used by your party were ineffective against gaseous creatures. Nobody had gust of wind for example. It could be that your party is just a bad mix or overpowered in other directions instead of being balanced. Also, you had a party of 3 instead of 4. It's hard to judge if you use non-standard PCs. For a better playtest scenario don't let your players play their own PCs, make up new ones that are true to level. I'd be leery of not seeing how they would have fared against traditional classes.

Debby

DracoDei
2010-05-25, 04:18 PM
They most certainly did NOT use up all their resources. They only took 1 point of damage and the wizard had lots of spells left (which may or may not have been effective against that particular enemy).

As for using more standard PCs, my players are all new to the game, and really like their races (their classes they probably aren't quite so attached to). I think different classes might confuse them. I will try to say more when I am not so tired and irritable.

Bhu
2010-05-26, 11:05 PM
Well your party was ECL 4, and the critters were CR 2 so it should have been not entirely too difficult for them. Maybe playtest it against a lower level party with 4 people?

DragoonWraith
2010-05-26, 11:19 PM
This isn't a GMing question. This is a monster design question. If it helps, you-personally can assume that, given the number and type of the monsters involved, I ran the encounter itself exactly right. Others can comment on if I should have used different terrain or had them act differently in combat.
See, but I know nothing about what's supposed to be on the other side of the table. I don't know how monsters are supposed to function, how you design a balanced encounter for the PCs, what monsters of a given CR are supposed to be able to do. Hell, I don't even understand how you calculate CR for an encounter. I do not have the knowledge necessary to judge these monsters in any way, shape, or form. I know nothing about it.

When I do my own brewing, it's player classes or player features, balanced against other features that players get. I then assume that if the game works with the features they're balanced against, my features will be too.

So, I'm sorry, but I can't help. Is what I mean.


What do you mean by "these"? The monsters? I wasn't asking for tactical or atmospheric advice, I was quite simply asking if I got the CR right, based on the test-data.
Sorry, that was worded unclearly: by "these", I meant the test-data itself. I don't know what it means. I don't know if the fight went easier than it was supposed to, harder than it was supposed to, nothing. Seriously, I can't make heads or tails of the log from a balance perspective - I see they killed them, but I'm pretty sure they were supposed to. Beyond that... I don't know.


The DMG says "1/4 of the parties resources" for a EL = Average Party Level fight against a 4 member party.

Running it repeatedly isn't really an option, and even LESS so if we can't figure out how to interpret the results of ONE such combat.
Well, in theory there is supposed to be a point where the DMG says the players should have a 50% win rate against a given encounter, which means if you run the fight over and over and the rate averages at or near 50%, they're balanced, and if not, then they're not. Not practical, I agree, but that is in theory the best way to do it.

I'm sure an actual DM can interpret the results. At least, I assume that this is something you'd need to know in order to DM. Maybe I'm wrong; I've never done it. But I couldn't even guess as to what the data indicates, because I have no experience or baseline to compare it against.

Vaynor
2010-05-27, 01:01 AM
I don't know much about playtesting, but I concur with Debbie. You can't really use homebrew to test the power of another homebrew. I'd make a 4-person party of the intended CR's level, made up of tier 3-ish classes, with no weird changes to LA or even LA races/racial HD at all. Your party is not average, and is thus a bad way to test CR.

DracoDei
2010-05-27, 08:05 AM
DragoonWraith: I did notice "a bit" of a mis-match when contacting you via PM, but I couldn't find many people with that "I review homebrew" tag just at that time, so I gave it a shot. Thank you very much.



I don't know much about playtesting, but I concur with Debbie. You can't really use homebrew to test the power of another homebrew. I'd make a 4-person party of the intended CR's level, made up of tier 3-ish classes, with no weird changes to LA or even LA races/racial HD at all. Your party is not average, and is thus a bad way to test CR.
It is less than optimal, but since I am the ONLY one who I know of who actually provides ANY playtest data, and this is the best I can reasonably do, it seems like we need to make the best with what we have, right? Half a loaf is better than none and all that.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-27, 12:51 PM
DragoonWraith: I did notice "a bit" of a mis-match when contacting you via PM, but I couldn't find many people with that "I review homebrew" tag just at that time, so I gave it a shot. Thank you very much.
No problem at all; I just wish I could help...

Bhu
2010-05-27, 10:28 PM
Looking at teh critters special abilities CR 2 seems fair, but you did have an unusual and powerful group. Are you thinking of doing another playtest?

DracoDei
2010-05-28, 12:28 AM
Looking at the critters special abilities CR 2 seems fair, but you did have an unusual and powerful group.
Unusual? Obviously.
Powerful? You may have to explain that one to me some. I think I am missing something. They also only had 3 members... but that aside, what makes you think of the group as powerful? Despite his bad race/class combo I could see that for Robin since he benefits the most from my house-rules... Zyborg and Spheniscine shouldn't be anything too special either way as far as power levels go...

Are you thinking of doing another playtest?

I am going for breadth, rather than depth with my specific play-tests, so I will be testing anything OTHER than Smokey Floaters the next time (or Fat Globs, which I tested earlier, but didn't make a separate thread for... and the characters for that were even weirder). If I found another group, I would redo the Fat Globs and Smokey Floaters with them (and based on the feedback I have gotten in this thread, I would probably do those two first).

Bhu
2010-05-28, 11:45 PM
by power i meant their level

DracoDei
2010-05-29, 02:38 AM
They are equivalent character level 4. 2 CR 2 critters is Encounter Level 4. Working hypothesis (that the CR is correct) means it should be a perfect encounter.

Strudel110
2010-06-08, 05:00 PM
It seems fine although there is no control group and I may be wrong.

DracoDei
2010-06-08, 05:32 PM
It seems fine although there is no control group and I may be wrong.
Thank you very much for your time. I assume that is just a gut-level feeling?

Bhu
2010-06-09, 03:13 PM
They are equivalent character level 4. 2 CR 2 critters is Encounter Level 4. Working hypothesis (that the CR is correct) means it should be a perfect encounter.

Yes but in general two CR 2 creatures arent always the same fight a aingle CR 4 is. For example a Monitor Lizard is CR 2. I'd rather fight two of those than a CR 4 Five headed Hydra.

ericgrau
2010-06-09, 03:49 PM
EDIT: ^ That's because it's a hydra, with a reputation for unusually high CR 4 power. People say, "Omg, 5 attacks, scary." But it suffers from monk AB syndrome, in that only 1 attack actually hits. And vampire syndrome, in that a knowledge check makes it much easier to kill while w/o the check it's much harder. Other less confusing CR 4 monsters might make a better comparison.

Eh you can't really tell from a single playtest.

All of its stats are equal or less than a CR 1 air elemental. The real bugger is its smoke inhalation with both an unusually high DC and the ability to remove the player from the fight. A level 1 character has about a 50% chance of failing the fortitude save. Yet in spite of its impressive incapacitating ability, at the same time it doesn't do much damage. With only 2 of them it would have been better off attacking instead of using smoke inhalation... which leaves it at CR 1 or less (EL 3 or less for 2). When combined with other monsters or with greater numbers the incapacitation could prove far more deadly.

IMO remove that disparity between the weak monster and high smoke inhalation DC by either beefing up the monster or reducing the DC by 3ish, then set the CR accordingly. That is unless you give out high stats to your group, in which case you may want to boost save DCs by 1 or 2 for all monsters.

Bhu
2010-06-11, 12:28 AM
Question: It says opponents who fail the save spend the round doing nothing but choking and coughing. Do they have full AC? Or a penalty to concentrate on spells with a duration of concentration?

DracoDei
2010-06-11, 09:17 AM
EDIT: ^ That's because it's a hydra, with a reputation for unusually high CR 4 power. People say, "Omg, 5 attacks, scary." But it suffers from monk AB syndrome, in that only 1 attack actually hits. And vampire syndrome, in that a knowledge check makes it much easier to kill while w/o the check it's much harder. Other less confusing CR 4 monsters might make a better comparison.

Eh you can't really tell from a single playtest.

All of its stats are equal or less than a CR 1 air elemental. The real bugger is its smoke inhalation with both an unusually high DC and the ability to remove the player from the fight. A level 1 character has about a 50% chance of failing the fortitude save. Yet in spite of its impressive incapacitating ability, at the same time it doesn't do much damage. With only 2 of them it would have been better off attacking instead of using smoke inhalation... which leaves it at CR 1 or less (EL 3 or less for 2). When combined with other monsters or with greater numbers the incapacitation could prove far more deadly.

IMO remove that disparity between the weak monster and high smoke inhalation DC by either beefing up the monster or reducing the DC by 3ish, then set the CR accordingly. That is unless you give out high stats to your group, in which case you may want to boost save DCs by 1 or 2 for all monsters.
Probably the most helpful reply on this thread so far... how much were you influenced by the playtest, and how much by just the monster stats?

The high DCs were probably actually intentional and are so that there is half a chance of the victim actually failing enough saves in a row that they start taking damage. Your arguments about the problems this creates seem spot on to me, but I have a stylistic difference about how I want to solve it. The idea of altering a monster to make the CR easier to calculate is a cop-out. I have seen a monster in a 3rd party splatbook ("Liber Beastiarus" I think) that explicitly listed two different CRs based on the sort of water (basically shallow versus deep) it was encountered in. I would be willing to give the GM guidelines for picking the CR within a certain range based on circumstances, or even a table cross-referencing two different circumstances regarding the encounter (environment, other monsters with them, or whatever) before I would alter a monster simply to make the CR easier to calculate. I imagine a monster, then put stats on it (although sometimes it may be based around the impact of a mechanical concept on the PCs world). Any deviation from the vision of what that monster IS conceptually for the sake of making the mechanics more workable is a small failure of my craft as a homebrewer. I make "deeply immersive" rather than "ease to run". Come to that, I was once told that one of my creatures shouldn't even HAVE a CR, because a party can only ever fight one of them ONCE without it being a complete cake-walk and it depends on stuff that happens OUTSIDE of combat to defeat it (it is specifically designed to be a TPK if the party doesn't run away after a bit the first time they fight it). I wouldn't click this link if you might ever be playing in a game where it could get used, but I feel I should provide a link, so HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98448) it is.

All of that having been said, what would you say to "CR 1/2 if encountered alone or in a pair with another smokey floater, CR 1 if in a pair with another smokey floater, CR 2 in any other case"?




Question: It says opponents who fail the save spend the round doing nothing but choking and coughing. Do they have full AC? Or a penalty to concentrate on spells with a duration of concentration?
Ooo... good catch. The original intent was just "lose your turn", but I might put in one or both of those. I just got up, so my thinking may be off, but I am leaning towards "can't maintain spells with a duration of concentration, but no AC penalty".

Another_Poet
2010-06-11, 01:53 PM
I think part of the reason for lack of helpful responses is the format of the original post. The spoiler has a long chat session log which is not easy to read (both format, and length). You asked for formatting tips and I would suggest a round by round summary in concise language. For instance


Round 1. Ogre charges and strikes Fighter for 22 damage.
Fighter misses. Rogue tumbles to flank and misses. Mage casts Shield. Cleric moves adjacent to fighter.
Round 2. Ogre strikes Fighter for 28 damage, Fighter drops at -4.
Fighter doesn't stabilize. Rogue delays. Mage casts Enlarge Person, moves adjacent to ogre, gives Rogue flank. Rogue strikes and sneaks for 17 damage. Cleric cases CMW on Fighter.

etc.


It was helpful that you summarized the amount of resources used at the end.

I personally feel that these sound like they underperformed for an EL 4 encounter but I think a playtest should use a classic ftr/rog/wiz/clr combo and APL should equal CR of one of the creatures. Under those conditions the monster may have proved its worth. The party certainly didn't spend 20% of resources on the fight so in that regard it was weak.

Other things to consider:
How many rounds did it last? If it was over in 2 rounds or less it was probably too weak. If it took more than 5 rounds it was either too difficult or just the result of too many controllery abilities on the battle mat.

At any point do you feel any of the PCs were worried about the outcome of the battle? If 1 was in a bad place and got worried but they pulled it out anyway that seems normal. If most or all of the party was worried and had close calls it is a higher EL than their level, even if they pulled it out. If they never broke a sweat it is probably below their challenge level.

How did the players feel it went? What did they say to you afterwards? What questions did you ask them and what did they answer? These are also playtest data worth considering.

Last, if I were to run a playtest purely as a playtest (i.e. to test a monster or class, not part of a campaign) I would run it with almost all averages. I.e. everyone rolls 10 on initiative. Everyone rolls 10 on saves. Everyone deals average damage/healing every time. The only thing I would roll would be attack rolls, out of necessity (high AC opponents are invincible if all attack rolls take 10, and wider crit ranges don't come into play). This will delete a lot of luck from the picture and give you a better sense of the typical result of the monster.

Good luck.

DracoDei
2010-06-19, 06:16 AM
I am having a great deal of trouble getting my response to this written. I will say it is probably the most helpful response so far... going to hit some points randomly in hopes of giving the thread SOMETHING to work with. Some slight ranting does occur at some points, but I think it a productive sort of ranting.

Players are mostly newbies (as in these are the first characters they have ever played in a RPG with actual rules). Their one advantage is that they have LOTS of experience with FREE-FORM non-combat roleplay of these characters. Ruumis and Remus are the exceptions. It is for this reason that I don't want to use the "standard" party mix with PHB races. These playtests are also supposed to help them work on their rules knowledge and tactics for the specific character. I know that does bad things to the ease of interpreting the playtest data, but I think we can work around that.

Actually, we already ARE working around that. In as much as while very little progress has been made testing the CR that is bad, but since someone (you) FINALLY gave me some advice that I can actually TAKE about improving the formatting (although it will be difficult), I think we have gotten something that is useful as far as future attempts at this... I consider the Playground to be HORRIBLY starved for playtest data... you could probable fit all the data I have ever seen posted (including via PM) in a single post... except maybe for what I have here, which might push it over the character limit. That is a tragedy, and I feel rather kicked in the teeth by the people who replied here for trying to do anything... I am doing SOMETHING (even if with my own stuff) and people seem to just be whining about how it wasn't the perfect experimental design... ok, so it is as far from perfect as a gradeschool sciencefair project is from the day to day work at a major science lab (the actual lab, not the offices where stuff gets written up)... it is still HUGELY better than nothing.

As for player responses they thought it was about a level appropriate (CR=APL) encounter.... but they are newbies, and they never seem to object to anything really... except us not getting on with the main plot (we have been stuck unable to proceed for technical reasons for MONTHS now...).

I also question the concept that using the standard party mix is any more valid of a way of testing somethings CR than any other party mix. Most parties DON'T fit the standard demographics, if only because most games probably don't happen to have exactly 4 PCs.

Another_Poet
2010-06-19, 01:20 PM
I'm glad I could be helpful. I agree about the lack of playtest data, but I wouldn't get too upset about others' responses. Playtesting requires a lot of work, as does reviewing the data, and most people just come here to socialize.

There's also a problem that although everyone knows that things "should" be playtested before being put in a product, no one knows what that means. None of the major gaming companies, to my knowledge, have ever publicly explained in any detail what their process is for playtesting - which in many cases may be because they don't have a set process. If companies with paid staff can't put forward an organized method of reliably playtesting, then unpaid individuals with limited game time are sure not going to excel at it.

Regarding your particular example I do see why you went with the party composition you did, rather than the Classic 4. I am not sure that the Classic 4 would be any better a playtest from a numbers perspective, but I recommend it at least partly because it follows the model the CR system was meant to follow (ha) and partly because it will just shutdown criticism from that angle if you use the accepted "standard party." If you use a non-standard party there will always be that question of whether the monster was hard because it's hard or just because there was no caster there. To some extent this is legitimate, as it puts a party on the mat who have a variety of strong and weak saves, a variety of specialized niches, and a fairly even spread of resources available. If the monster is a mage-killer than a mage-heavy party is going to TPK while a no-mage party is going to cakewalk.

If your party of mostly-newbs felt it was "level appropriate" then I personally feel that reinforces my opinion that it is a little underpowered :smallwink:

Anyway I'm glad I could be of service. :)

ap