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bartman
2010-05-23, 01:47 PM
Pretty sure I cannot do this, just looking for verification

If i declare Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike, take the -8 to my AC, can I take 2 attacks of opportunity to the same creature if he hits me?

lsfreak
2010-05-23, 01:50 PM
Nes and yo.

The FAQ ruling is no, they don't. But their reasoning is flimsy at best; RAW-wise there's nothing to point to not being able to. Ask you DM.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-23, 02:07 PM
I don't know why you'd think this combination doesn't work, but it certainly should. Robilar's Gambit gives you an AoO if someone attacks you. Karmic Strike gives you an AoO if someone hits you. These are different provocations, so you can (if you have Combat Reflexes) take advantage of both opportunities to attack.

ninjaneer003
2010-05-23, 02:11 PM
I don't know why you'd think this combination doesn't work, but it certainly should. Robilar's Gambit gives you an AoO if someone attacks you. Karmic Strike gives you an AoO if someone hits you. These are different provocations, so you can (if you have Combat Reflexes) take advantage of both opportunities to attack.

This sounds about right and it looks like it makes sense.

sofawall
2010-05-23, 02:11 PM
I don't know why you'd think this combination doesn't work, but it certainly should.

Like the above poster said, the FAQ says no.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-23, 02:14 PM
Like the above poster said, the FAQ says no.
Where, exactly, does the FAQ say this? :smallconfused:

Optimator
2010-05-23, 03:31 PM
The theory behind the ruling is that one single action cannot provoke more than one AoO, like moving out of multiple threatened squares doesn't provoke multiple AoOs. Allowing both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit to work off one hit is silly.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-23, 03:50 PM
The theory behind the ruling is that one single action cannot provoke more than one AoO
Firstly, there's no such ruling, officially.

Secondly, that theory is wrong. There's only a single limitation to provocations, and that's:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesnít count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. So you can get multiple AoOs from someone moving if, for instance, they run past you. Running provokes an AoO, and you get another one when they move out of a square you threaten. So that's multiple provocations for the same action, even where the AoO limitation applies.

ghashxx
2010-05-23, 04:22 PM
Firstly, there's no such ruling, officially.

Secondly, that theory is wrong. There's only a single limitation to provocations, and that's: So you can get multiple AoOs from someone moving if, for instance, they run past you. Running provokes an AoO, and you get another one when they move out of a square you threaten. So that's multiple provocations for the same action, even where the AoO limitation applies.

The thing about the running past doesn't give you multiple AoO's, as the rules which you just quoted specifically state that moving through multiple threatened squares does not result in multiple opportunities.

But while there may be some FAQ that says karmic strike and robilar's gambit don't stack, I say why not. As they attack you're able to strike them, and after you get hit you can strike them again. It may be part of the same action, but the trigger is two different parts. It's like you'd get two AoO's from Robilars + reach weapon + they're bull rushing you.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-23, 04:36 PM
The thing about the running past doesn't give you multiple AoO's, as the rules which you just quoted specifically state that moving through multiple threatened squares does not result in multiple opportunities.
You should read that more carefully. The limitation is on moving out of multiple threatened squares. They also provoke by running, and you can take that AoO when they enter your first threatened square. Then, when they continue moving, you get a single AoO for all the threatened squares they leave.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-05-23, 08:28 PM
The theory behind the ruling is that one single action cannot provoke more than one AoOFirstly, there's no such ruling, officially.

Whatís this, then?

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesnít count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
(emphasis mine)

It seems the FAQ considers the attack to be the same opportunity as the hit, since itís essentially the same action, just like moving through multiple threatened squares with one action is.

tyckspoon
2010-05-23, 08:34 PM
It seems the FAQ considers the attack to be the same opportunity as the hit, since itís essentially the same action, just like moving through multiple threatened squares with one action is.

And the FAQ is wrong, as making an attack roll against something and hitting it are treated as separate events in every other part of the game. It's most often seen in Contingencies and other immediate-action responses, which will specificy whether they can be used when you are attacked (typically denoted with 'you must use this before you know if the attack is successful) or when you actually are hit.

Runestar
2010-05-23, 08:35 PM
The theory behind the ruling is that one single action cannot provoke more than one AoO, like moving out of multiple threatened squares doesn't provoke multiple AoOs. Allowing both Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit to work off one hit is silly.

Except that both have different triggers. Robilar's gambit activates when an attack is declared on you (but before it hits), karmic strike works when you are actually hit.

So it can be interpreted as 2 separate opportunities...

I will allow it, for one.

Keld Denar
2010-05-23, 08:55 PM
It seems the FAQ considers the attack to be the same opportunity as the hit, since itís essentially the same action, just like moving through multiple threatened squares with one action is.

Its 2 different opportunities. The act of running provokes an AoO, according to the table Actions in Combat: Full Round Actions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullRoundActions). If you are running and in a threatened square, you provoke an AoO. If that run takes you out of a threatened square, then that action provokes another AoO. The AoO granted from the action of leaving a threatened square.

2 different provocations, 2 different AoOs.

Just like RG and KS. RG triggers BEFORE the attack. If you just have RG, and you are attacked by a foe you can reach, you get your AoO prior to your opponents attack. If your AoO kills or disables that foe, your foes attack never happens.

On the other side, if you just have KS, and you are attacked, the foe first hits you, deals damage, and if you are still able to claim the AoO (not disabled or dead or otherwise prevented from attacking), THEN you can claim your AoO.

So, appart, they trigger at VERY different times. Independantly, the both function and function differently. Why would suddenly having both disable one or the other?

bartman
2010-05-23, 09:03 PM
Hmm, well, this is good news, I will show this to my DM and see what he says.

It may be a moot point anyways, since on my AoO i get to trip, so if I am successful, then KS wouldnt even come into play anyways...

thanks all

Runestar
2010-05-23, 09:06 PM
Hmm, well, this is good news, I will show this to my DM and see what he says.

It may be a moot point anyways, since on my AoO i get to trip, so if I am successful, then KS wouldnt even come into play anyways...

thanks all

Tripping won't interrupt the attack, though being prone will likely incur some attack penalties.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-24, 01:14 AM
It seems the FAQ considers the attack to be the same opportunity as the hit, since itís essentially the same action, just like moving through multiple threatened squares with one action is.
Again I ask, what FAQ? I've looked through the most current 3.5 FAQ, and find nothing at all about Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit.

And to the point: there's a difference between actions and provocations. There's nothing in the rules that says one action can't include multiple provocations. A charge (a single full-round action) already provokes AoOs from its movement part when you leave threatened squares. Add the Headlong Rush feat (Races of FaerŻn) and you provoke AoOs from everyone who can reach the charge path, including when you enter threatened squares, in order to get double damage. If you couldn't provoke multiple AoOs from a single action, then Headlong Rush would be beneficial without much downside. That's absurd.

Keld Denar
2010-05-24, 01:23 AM
The world is coming to an end...I've agreed with Curmudgeon twice in a row...I think its time I stop drinking. Hurray beer!

Curmudgeon
2010-05-24, 01:35 AM
The world is coming to an end...I've agreed with Curmudgeon twice in a row...I think its time I stop drinking. Hurray beer!
No need to panic. I can still get on your case.

RG triggers BEFORE the attack. If you just have RG, and you are attacked by a foe you can reach, you get your AoO prior to your opponents attack. If your AoO kills or disables that foe, your foes attack never happens.

Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foeís attack.
The foe's attack always happens with Robilar's Gambit, because, unlike most attacks of opportunity, RG separates the trigger and the AoO: there's no interrupt.

Keld Denar
2010-05-24, 01:58 AM
My bad, just looked it up. That said, its on like donkey kong....