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Superglucose
2010-05-25, 01:28 AM
Ok, the main question I have here regards Hydras. In the SRD, a Pyro/Cryo Hydra's breath weapons are not specifically called out as Breath Weapons, but rather just says it can deal damage by making a jet of fire. Do I get access to those attacks while Polymorphed into pyro hydras?

Hendel
2010-05-25, 01:35 AM
According to the rules for the Polymorph Subschool you should get those abilities as it says "in all other ways, the target's normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the new form."

Of course, you loose ALL class features, including the ability to cast spells regardless of the what you polymorph into, unless, of course, it had spells in which case you would get spells just like that creature.

Debihuman
2010-05-25, 08:07 AM
These reddish hydras can breathe jets of fire 10 feet high, 10 feet wide, and 20 feet long. All heads breathe once every 1d4 rounds. Each jet deals 3d6 points of fire damage per head. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is 10 + ˝ hydra’s original number of heads + hydra’s Con modifier.

It doesn't specifically state that is it a breath weapon, but I think it is clear from the text and from the wording that it is. If your DM adjudicates otherwise, then presume it is something else. It really can't be seen as anything other than a breath weapon in my opinion as there is no fire-breathing that would be natural.

Breath weapons are supernatural abilities unless noted so the Hydra's breath weapon is supernatural. With the polymorph spell, you do not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities. If your DM says it is an extraordinary ability, you still can't use it.

Debby

unre9istered
2010-05-25, 08:23 AM
You do gain the extraordinary attacks while polymorphed though. If the DM decides this is not supernatural then you would gain this ability because it's clearly an attack. It's also clearly supernatural, at least to me, but if your DM decides otherwise that's his business.

weenie
2010-05-25, 09:27 AM
Of course, you loose ALL class features, including the ability to cast spells regardless of the what you polymorph into, unless, of course, it had spells in which case you would get spells just like that creature.

Are you sure about this? Can you point me to where in the rules it says so?

Prodan
2010-05-25, 09:33 AM
I think his perspective on the rules is inaccurate.

Debihuman
2010-05-25, 10:07 AM
See polymorph spell in the SRD:



Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

I added bolding for emphasis. Your class doesn't change. If you could cast spells before the polymorph, you can cast them afterward. However, the SRD isn't necessarily the final arbiter of this.

See Rules Compendium page 122: 'In all other ways, the target’s normal game statistics are effectively replaced by those of the assumed form. The target loses all the special abilities it has in its natural form, including its class features, even if the assumed form would normally be able to use these class features."

Again bolding added for emphasis.

Debby

Hendel
2010-05-25, 11:37 AM
Are you sure about this? Can you point me to where in the rules it says so?

The Polymorph Subschool was a revision that came into effect with the Player's Handbook II (page 95) and reprinted in the Complete Mage (page 91) and again in the Rules Compendium (page 122). I made my comments, and even stated it clearly, under the umbrella of the Polymorph Subschool.

It seems to have been a revision by the game designers to answer what you can and cannot do with polymorph spells. It gives them a great up side, other than alignment, hit points (modified by new Con score), hit dice, and languages (but not the ability to speak), the character becomes exactly like the new creature. The downside is that "the target loses all of the special abilities it has in its normal form, including its class features." Hence my comment about not being able to cast spells, etc. Essentially you can't have your cake and eat it too.

So my "perspective" on this rule is NOT inaccurate IF you follow the Polymorph Subschool. Then all the spells that fall into this category are different than what the Player's Handbook says and different than the SRD. So, if you follow the letter of the law on the SRD, then please ignore my comments. If you allow for the game designers to further refine a position, then look at the Polymorph Subschool and see if it is something that would help or hurt your game.

Hendel
2010-05-25, 11:53 AM
I am assuming that we are talking about 3.5 D&D here, correct?

Prodan
2010-05-25, 11:58 AM
Doesn't the polymorph subschool only apply to the spells in the PHB2?

Hendel
2010-05-25, 12:05 PM
Doesn't the polymorph subschool only apply to the spells in the PHB2?

In Complete Mage (page 91) it references "Spells that have come before" and says that any spell that refers to Alter Self or Polymorph fall into this subschool.

Prodan
2010-05-25, 12:06 PM
The "spells that have come before" section of the PHB2 (on P 96) specifically states that the spell text for Alter Self and Polymorph takes precedent, even though they now belong to the polymorph subschool.

Bazinga.

Sir Giacomo
2010-05-25, 01:54 PM
The "spells that have come before" section of the PHB2 (on P 96) specifically states that the spell text for Alter Self and Polymorph takes precedent, even though they now belong to the polymorph subschool.

Bazinga.

Hm, if that is the case then I guess the usual alter self/polymorph self rules hold, and thus you do not get the cryo/pyro hydra breath weapon attacks.

This is because alter self and polymorph clearly outline what you get and what you do not get. And the abilities that are not marked as special abilities (eihter ex/su/sp, as in the hydra's case its multiple head attacks and the breath weapons) are not among them.

- Giacomo