PDA

View Full Version : Star Wars Saga - Return of the GitPy (Central Community Thread)



AstralFire
2010-05-25, 10:51 PM
http://www.theanteheroes.com/GitP/StarWarsLogo.gif

It's been a while, I'm back in a homebrewy mood. Star Wars Saga is the best WotC gaming product I have ever experienced, but there's always more to add. I'd like to get a community compendium together as a sourcebook of all the things that we think need to get added, so speak up! I have some personal agendas, and I want to know yours!

In my sights:
- An improved social combat system. I worked on one for Avatar Saga Edition, and I think it can work here with some tweaks. This is an optional rule expansion of the basic Persuasion/Deception system.
- New talents for Nobles and Scoundrels based on the above.
- More purpose to Skill Focus for weaker skills past low levels. Bringing back Skill Stunts (another thing I worked on for Avatar Saga Edition) and the expanded Medpac/Steroid system I worked out with Longhair for Treat Injury.
- Balancing Force Wizards a bit better. I have some stuff based around this from my Deep-66 homebrew, but I'll take another look.
- New simple equipment. I noticed a disturbing lack of battlefield traps, like caltrops and stuff.
- New talents for Scouts (how to negotiate them and place them mid-fight) and Soldiers (how to make the most of trapped victims) based around battlefield hazards, including crowds/mobs (Scoundrels will get emphasis on hazards in these conditions).
- Statting up additional races. I'm sure Saga's missed some fan favorites. Yoda's race... we don't know enough about, so let me forestall that one.
- Further expansion of Lightsaber Form Powers maybe? Not sure, there are a lot of them already.
- Tweaks to several of the Lightsaber Crystals.

What do you all think? What do you want to add?

For the uninitiated, a guide to Star Wars Saga using the 3.5 SRD. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6651498)
The ProjectWiki Mainpage. (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Star_Wars_Saga_Edition_-_GitP)

Moofaa
2010-05-26, 04:40 AM
I worked for years on making a homebrew sci-fi setting because none existed that were satisfactory. That project started back when the existing Star Wars rpg made you roll 50000 d6's just to determine an attack, let alone damage. Also gives you an idea of how long I had worked on my homebrew.

Over the years it saw many changes, then languished for years more as interest waned. About two months ago I was reading the 4E books and was thinking "Hmmm, I could use some ideas from this in that old sci-fi game".

So I started rewriting it again, then happened to see another thread on this forum about "SWSE"...which turned out to be almost exactly what I was making. In fact I decided to use all the regular non-jedi classes in my homebrew with only a few modifications.

Since I run "rules lite" for my players (we prefer descriptive combat over miniature wargames) I'd like to see more talents that avoid "move 2 squares" tactics and instead influence combat in new ways.

I'd also like to see more talents overall, and a base class thats REALLY centered around technology so a player can make a Doctor or Hacker type with appropriate talents and abilities. Right now it appears tech roles are limited to some basic computer hacking talents given to the smuggler (which is fine as it makes sense they need some skills in this area). Medical stuff is pretty much all under the treat injury/surgery skills and talents. I tried creating these two kinds of classes myself but have yet to come up with satisfactory talents to set them apart from other classes.

Overall SWSE is pretty much perfect for running sci-fi/modern campaigns. Its a great blend of 3rd and 4th edition.

At some point I will get around to posting my sci-fi homebrew stuff and maybe some of the ideas will make their way into here.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 05:14 AM
There is a medical PrC in one of the books - The Medic in The Force Unleashed. I made some additional talents and secrets to go with that class - this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117434) is the sort of thing you'd like to see, yes? You can also see the additional use I added to Treat Injury up top.

TI also got a Skill Stunt - I'll just C&P it here.

Smellingsalts: As a standard action, you can attempt to shock an adjacent target back up to full action. If you succeed on a DC 25 Treat Injury check, you can temporarily move the target up 1 step on the condition track, even if it is due to a persistent condition; these persistent conditions return and still affect the character following the end of the encounter. A given creature can only benefit from this ability once per encounter.

I think as a Base Class, hacking (like Medicine) may be a poor idea in standalone - but giving a similar advanced treatment to Use Computer is a good idea, and then we can drum up a Prestige Class.

Moofaa
2010-05-26, 05:34 AM
I'll check out that Force Unleashed prc when I can. I actually added stimpacks as just an equipment item to my game and never thought about tying them in to a talent/skill, thats a good idea and I will probably use it.

Main reason I wanted to have a base class was to allow people to play characters like Simon from Firefly, or be the techno-geek sterotype. On the other hand with games being combat-oriented "skill" classes lose their luster when everyone else is doing cartwheels while dual-wielding flame-throwers because they got all the cool talents/feats. (ok, so not that extreme but it paints a funny image.)

I'll post some more here tonight, I have some other ideas.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 06:15 AM
Generally, they have to have some other skills to work in that kind of an adventure. Even in Firefly, Simon never leaves an operating room and remains an effective contributor with two notable exceptions:


Planning a heist in Ariel. Those are leadership/social combat abilities, which I plan to expand on. :D
The retconned version of him saving his sister in the movie, where he picks up some action man reflexes and a few gadgets.



'Pure' roles don't work in any adventure fiction and are purely an artifact of some CRPGs and MMORPGs, which are slowly starting to shed them.

IdleMuse
2010-05-26, 07:37 AM
Sounds interesting, I'll be greatly interested in how this turns out, and am very happy to pitch in and help out. Saga is a very 'neat' system the way it is, but some of the things you suggested sound quite intriguing. I'm particularly enamoured with the idea of social combat; All by Saga games tend to have this kind of setup at some point, and I recently played through a tenweek of the Song of Ice and Fire d6 rpg, which has a social combt system that mirrors the physical combat system entirely.

So far i've just been using fairly modified Skill Challenges (Galaxy of Intrigue), but I think it can be done a lot more interactively (currently, players without trained persuade/deception/gather info are a bit screwed in their actual mechanical options for socialising), and it'd be great to see some homebrew mechanical support for this.

So yeah, I'm up for this!

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 07:43 AM
Hmm. I had actually been focusing on additional skill abilities (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6577299&postcount=6) for people who had skill training and focus, mirroring the Force Training and Starship Training feats. I'm not entirely certain of ideas for expanding it for untrained uses. Thoughts?

Dienekes
2010-05-26, 08:28 AM
A suggestion. Give nobles a PrC that the likes of Leia or Amidala would actually take.

Really, all they got is Charlatan, Crime Lord, and Officer. Where is the Senator or Politician PrC?

I'd be glad to help, though I'm not sure just how helpful I'd be really. I've only ever homebrewed two mediocre classes.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 08:40 AM
Leia is an Officer and a dip into Jedi Knight, looking at her roles in ESB, RotJ and the EU. Amidala would be a Noble who crossed into Scoundrel and got Infiltrator. Mon Mothma might be a straight politician, but we'll really need heavy input from people experienced with a variety of systems that have social combat or idea people. I suppose we could rip some ideas from the Force Adept and Medic, but those'd be pretty boring...

Dienekes
2010-05-26, 08:59 AM
Leia is an Officer and a dip into Jedi Knight, looking at her roles in ESB, RotJ and the EU. Amidala would be a Noble who crossed into Scoundrel and got Infiltrator. Mon Mothma might be a straight politician, but we'll really need heavy input from people experienced with a variety of systems that have social combat or idea people. I suppose we could rip some ideas from the Force Adept and Medic, but those'd be pretty boring...

Well, the way I see it. All Jabba ever did was lay around and yell at people, and yet they managed to make an interesting PrC around that. Also since you're first goal was an improved social combat system, I figured a PrC specialized on however that turned out would fit right in.

Now how to make it interesting, I'll admit I haven't thought that far ahead.

Also, Leia's an Officer? It's been awhile since I've seen the movies I suppose but I don't remember her offering any insightful tactical analysis on anything. I could be misremembering though.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 09:04 AM
Well, here's the thing - I figure being able to talk to people is something relatively cross-disciplinary, like Force Powers, hence the system at hand. But. Hm. I feel like adding a politician class on top of it would really require expansion of a political system, since galactic politics are to social combat as an RTS is to an FPS, if you get my meaning. That could be -very- interesting if we don't get in over our heads with that.

Leia as an officer is because she's a high ranking member of the Rebel Alliance who nonetheless gets deployed to strike missions.

Dienekes
2010-05-26, 09:24 AM
Alright, I suppose we see different things in it then. I simply see a Politician class as pretty good at making alliances and in debates of some sort. The ultimate public speaker of sorts. Though adding a political system on top of that could be very interesting, if very complicated.

Well anyway, that was my 2 cents on what I'd like to see. I'd still be glad to help with anything for the project even if my pitch was disregarded.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 09:27 AM
No, no, not disregarded. It may be easier if you communicate with examples - don't give numbers or precise wording, just the ideas. :) I think it's a good idea for a PrC, it just needs to be a worthy PrC. Maybe we can make one, maybe we can't, need to try. Like, define what you mean by forging alliances.

Amiria
2010-05-26, 11:20 AM
Mon Mothma might take offense, but I think that the Noble base class and the Crime Lord prestige class are already quite suitable for portraying senators and other politicians. Crime Lord just needs some refluffing, including a more neutral name.

And probably a new talent tree with some appropriate talents. But careful there, the Diplomancy skill is already quite powerful in SW Saga.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 11:25 AM
Fair points. Sorta why I'm gravitating towards trying to find interesting class abilities that expand on other parts of political systems. -nod- Any opinion on the Rhetorical Technique system?

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-26, 03:44 PM
The first thing one needs to consider when "fixing" the problems in SW Saga is the disparity between attack rolls, defenses, and skill checks. I'd love to see a skill combat system that has more uses of the Skill vs Defense model, but the problem is that these things all scale at different rates. I suggest switching everything to progress at half level like in D&D 4E. Once that is done, we can tweak stuff like Skill Focus and other bonuses so the system remains balanced at all levels of play.


Mon Mothma might take offense, but I think that the Noble base class and the Crime Lord prestige class are already quite suitable for portraying senators and other politicians. Crime Lord just needs some refluffing, including a more neutral name.

The name is fine, since most politicians are criminals anyway. :smallwink:

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 03:50 PM
D&D 4E doesn't -really- progress at half-level. It's a much more equipment dependent game, and those bonuses are taken into account. Simply put, strong combat effects (crowd controls and notable damage) shouldn't be solely tied into skill checks; switching Force Powers to an attack roll did wonders for my games. The formula is:


When a Force Power is directed against someone's defenses, use the following rules for resolving attack damage:
Heroic Level + Charisma Modifier + 1 (if Trained) + 1 (If Focused).

Roll use the force anyway for purposes of deflecting the ability with Rebuke.
Things to note: Force Powers are still not valid subjects of abilities like Shatterpoint and Battle Strike.

Thoughts/comments/objections?

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 04:29 PM
To avoid excessive thread sprawl, we'll be using a Wiki (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Return_of_the_GitPy) to host the information, provided there are no objections. For now it's just a picture; I have to go exercise.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 08:25 PM
Okay, so I want to poll for opinions here; how should social combat expansion be done? There's three options.

- A separate system alongside and similar to Starship Combat and Force Powers. This was the way I did it in that Avatar spinoff, but I had reasons for that; among them, the lack of anything else using Will Defense. Additionally, it's harder to integrate as an 'addon' as a number of the abilities are expansions of talents.
- Add on talents to existing classes, as Dienekes and Amiria suggested earlier. SWSE does encourage multiclassing, so it's not too painful to dip levels of Noble and Scoundrel to talk gud. After previously leaning towards number 1 (as it requires the least work), I am now leaning towards this option.
- Integrated into Skill Tricks. I think this is a really bad idea as it overemphasizes a single, already strong feat - Skill Focus: Persuasion or Deception.

Wiki mainpage updated.

IdleMuse
2010-05-26, 08:46 PM
I love the idea of using the already existing 'powers' system as seen in maneuvers/force powers/regimens to support social combat; however, I think all characters should be able to take part, irrelevant of whether they have bought the 'social training' feat. I think a system for social combat needs to be invented, and have these "social maneuvers" interact with it, but anyone can roll a persuade/decieve/relevant check, even if they don't have them. Like regular combat; anyone can hit someone else with a vibroblade, but only those who bought force training can use spangly force powers.

Then, talents in noble/new PrC can support this, in the same way some jedi talents support force powers.

Dienekes
2010-05-26, 09:18 PM
Okay, so I want to poll for opinions here; how should social combat expansion be done? There's three options.

- A separate system alongside and similar to Starship Combat and Force Powers. This was the way I did it in that Avatar spinoff, but I had reasons for that; among them, the lack of anything else using Will Defense. Additionally, it's harder to integrate as an 'addon' as a number of the abilities are expansions of talents.
- Add on talents to existing classes, as Dienekes and Amiria suggested earlier. SWSE does encourage multiclassing, so it's not too painful to dip levels of Noble and Scoundrel to talk gud. After previously leaning towards number 1 (as it requires the least work), I am now leaning towards this option.
- Integrated into Skill Tricks. I think this is a really bad idea as it overemphasizes a single, already strong feat - Skill Focus: Persuasion or Deception.

Wiki mainpage updated.

I'd vote not 3 personally.

If doing 1 though, I still think it opens up the potential for a PrC that has worthwhile benefits to such a system. Such as Force Adepts Force Power Adept talent, or the Force Secrets.

Moofaa
2010-05-26, 09:54 PM
A sort of combination of options 1 & 2. I like the idea that anyone can participate using some of the new social combat abilities without having to take levels in Noble. On the other hand it seems obvious that Nobles should have additional talents to keep them a step above the others.

AstralFire
2010-05-27, 11:47 AM
Let's not leave Scoundrels out of the talking game. :)

I'll work on this today, but progress will be slow. I have pleasant SigOth distractions.

AstralFire
2010-05-28, 04:23 PM
This is all pretty beta. Thoughts?

Deception
Deceptive Information: This use of the Deception skill is also used to convey hard-to-believe information that is, in fact, true. You gain a +5 bonus on all rolls to convey truthful information.

Echo Chamber: Repetition improves believability. Providing less information gives you a weaker argument to strike with, but it also makes your argument less susceptible to failure as well. You may take a -5 penalty on any Deceptive Information usage of the Deception skill, representing a weaker argument made with the confidence of someone who doesn't see a need to explain circumstances. In return, you are able to make repeated, consecutive attempts to convey the same lie, as long as none of your attempts fail to meet the DC by 15 or more.

Interruption: As a reaction, you can interrupt a persuasion or deception attempt being made by someone. This works by insulting, belittling or rapidly rebutting your target. Roll deception against their persuasion or deception check result; if you tie or beat their check result, their attempt fails. However, if you lose the opposed roll, they gain a +2 bonus.

Take and Take: After someone's deception check fails against you by 5 or more, you may immediately roll a deception check at a +5 bonus to convince them that you were fooled.

Xanatos Feint (trained only): You may choose to allow a feint attempt against you to succeed (after the GM has determined that it would fail); in return, your next attack may also treat the other party as though you had successfully feinted them.

Persuasion
Change Attitude: This use of the Persuasion skill can be used to decrease someone's attitude towards you as well. Persuasion only needs to be rolled for decreasing attitude if the target is actively attempting to keep its opinion of you high. Normal starting attitude modifiers still apply. If successful in decreasing the attitude of a hostile person, they act to openly hurt you in whatever way possible as soon as they can bear - be that with violence, an outburst, or scheming. Subtlety is forgotten about.

Honeyed Words (trained only): By presenting an attractive, sympathetic, or harmless guise, you appeal to your opponent's better (or baser) nature, making them reluctant to harm you - even if that doesn't make them any less likely to harm your friends. As a full-round action, make a Persuasion check against a target that is either not hostile towards you or has a Dark Side Score less than their Wisdom score. If successful, the target will not use attacks and abilities that could harm you if at all possible; if that is not possible, it will switch to stun damage or use abilities it thinks you could survive. If the target is aware of you making any offensive actions this encounter, you take a -5 penalty to your Persuasion check.

If you have dealt enough total damage to overcome the target's damage threshold this encounter, or have ever placed the target or its loved ones in mortal danger, this ability fails automatically.

If the target finds your sincerity hard to believe, then you may have to make a deception check as well.

Give and Take: If your target is attempting to use a persuasion check on you, you may voluntarily allow the check to succeed; in return, you gain a +5 bonus on the next persuasion check made against them within a minute.

Lecture: You may attempt to lecture your opponent(s) as a standard action every round for ten consecutive rounds. If your Persuasion check succeeds each and every round, at the end of that minute, they immediately concede the encounter entirely. Lecture can be combined with other uses; for example, if you have the Rhetorical feat, you may make ten Moment of Weakness checks.

Objection: As a reaction, you can bolster someone else against a persuasion or deception attempt on them. Roll against the target's Will Defense, treating the target as one step friendlier to you than usual. If you succeed, you grant a +2 bonus to their target's Will Defense. Only one person can successfully object within the course of a round; multi-round checks, such as during a lecture, can have multiple respondents.

Skill Tricks
These require focus in the relevant skills.

Deception:
Xanatos Master: If someone's feint attempt against you has failed by 5 or more, you may make an attack of opportunity against them, along with the standard benefits of the Xanatos Feint usage of this skill.

Persuasion:
Advocate: When cooperating with another person on a Persuasion check, you add a +3 bonus to their result, rather than a +2 bonus. If the person performing the skill check does not have Skill Focus: Persuasion, they gain the benefits of that feat for that roll (another +5 bonus).

New Influence Talents
These new talents belong to the Influence tree. Nobles, among other character classes, may select their talents from this tree.

Command: As a full-round action, make a Persuasion check against a single target at a -10 penalty. If the result equals or exceeds the target's Will Defense, you may decide their actions on the next turn in their stead. The target still controls their reactions, however, and will not commit self-harm, or expose themselves to harm; you can attempt a Deception check as normal as part of this action to try to convince them that something is harmless; if you are engaged in combat, all deceptions are treated as one step harder to pass off. If you exceed their Will Defense by an additional 10, you completely control the target's reactions and actions for the next round, no exception.
Prerequisite: Presence.

Moment of Weakness: As a standard action, make a Persuasion check against a single target, taunting them to intimidate them, or perhaps coaxing them to join you. If the result equals or exceeds the target's Will Defense, they take a -5 penalty to all of their saves against the next attack to strike them this round.
Prerequisite: Presence.

Puppet Master: As a full-round action, make a Deception check against a single target, telling them that something they find hard to believe is, in fact, real. (Use the usual deception modifiers, as found on Page 65 of the Core Rulebook; if you are engaged in combat, all deceptions are treated as one step harder to pass off.) This does not have to be directly stated; if the target does not trust you, you can parse this as an intentional 'slip up' in a statement you expect them disbelieve, twisting them about.

If the result equals or exceeds their Will Defense, you can dictate one action or reaction of the target that they make before the end of the encounter, as long as it is logically related to your lie. (For example, you might convince a bounty hunter to drop his cover and go for an all-out assault, or you may enrage a shrewd but vehement opponent to physically attack you in public view.) Commands that go strongly against the subject's nature may be neutralized with the use of a Force Point.
Prerequisite: Presence.

Fear: As a swift action, you may make a Persuasion check against a single target that you have personally moved -1 step or more on the condition track this encounter. If the result equals or exceeds the target's Will Defense, the target must spend at least one move action next round moving in the most direct path away from you that does not lead to another, obvious threat. If cover is available, they will head for that or make use of it instead. This is a fear effect.
Prerequisite: Presence.

New Misfortune Talents
These new talents belong to the Misfortune tree. Scoundrels, among other character classes, may select their talents from this tree.

False Bravado: As a standard action, make a Deception check against all targets of your choice that can currently hear and understand you. If the result equals or exceeds the targets' Will Defense, they gain a morale bonus to their attack rolls equal to your Charisma modifier, and feel energized and confident; however, the first time they would move -1 step or more along the condition track, they drop an additional -1 step, and the morale bonus disappears.
Prerequisite: Disruptive.

Spirit Crusher: As a standard action, make a Deception check against a single target. If the result equals or exceeds their Will Defense, you've successfully misled and warped their mind to present a different outcome than the reality they've understood, undermining their resolve. The target moves -1 step along the condition track as a persistent condition that remains until the end of the encounter. Any morale bonuses they currently possess transfer to you until the end of your next turn, then disappear. This is a fear effect.
Prerequisite: Disruptive.

Moofaa
2010-05-29, 01:37 AM
I like the Misfortune talents. False Bravado sounds like a risky way to buff allies or take down enemies. Might want to put a limit on Spirit Crusher as to how far someone can fall down the condition track since its not physical damage.

Not sure I understand Deceptive Information. So if I am reading it right, lets say I was being framed by trained cyborg monkey ninjas that nobody could see because they were invisible. I get a +5 bonus on trying to tell others about this true story? Almost seems like a niche ability. If its to convey truthful information couldn't it also be used to abuse persuasion checks?

AstralFire
2010-05-29, 02:38 AM
Persuasion is used to sway people to your side, not to convince them of the truthfulness of things. It seems odd to me that just because you're telling the truth, you're using a wholly different skill. The two are often related, but not the same, so I don't think that should be an issue. It is niche, but I wanted to clear up that deception was still the go-to skill for something like Puppet Master if you were, in fact, dispelling the mistruths a potential ally had been brainwashed with.

Perhaps make Spirit Crusher a persistent -1 that can ends after the encounter?

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-29, 06:00 PM
I like the additional skill options for if you're Focused in it. I might have to steal that idea. It helps keep Skill Focus useful even if I lower the bonus it gives.

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 09:48 AM
I'd be wary of lowering Skill Focus' bonus. What did you have in mind, specifically?

Skills page is under construction (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Star_Wars_Saga_Edition_-_GitP:_Skills). Need to come up with good Focused uses for Pilot, Use Computer, and Mechanics. Pilot have to be careful with, might forego it entirely since Pilots have the equivalent of Force Powers with Starships of the Galaxy.

Dienekes
2010-05-30, 11:42 AM
Those look pretty good. Though, personally I'd take out the references to Xanatos, since those are fairly unStar Warsy references.

I'd also say for the Force Powers thing, adding the +1 if Trained seems a bit pointless since you can't use Force Powers unless your trained. Perhaps a +2 if Focused only, unless there's a reason for the way you have it set up I'm not getting.

Because Persuasion is so powerful as is without the ability to automatically end encounters, maybe when using Lecture if performing another Persuasion ability as well you suffer a -5 penalty.

Since Pilot and Use the Force have abilities tied to them already, I'd don't worry about Focused abilities yet.

For Use Computer, perhaps
Skilled Hacker= You can Access Information and Disable or Erase Program with a computer of any attitude. Increase the DC by +5 if the computer is Unfriendly, and by +10 if the computer is Hostile.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-30, 04:21 PM
I'd be wary of lowering Skill Focus' bonus. What did you have in mind, specifically?

I'm mostly thinking of it in terms of my own homebrew, which I've yet to really get off the ground. It's going to be a more realistic & generic Sci-Fi using the SW Saga ruleset (since the one Star Wars game I ran ended horribly and I realized one of the reasons is that I despise Star Wars as a game setting), and I'm going to do a bunch of little tweaks here and there to make it more balanced (such as the aforementioned changing of attack bonus, defenses and skill checks to a half-level progression).

I'm guessing I'll need to lower the bonus granted by Skill Focus in order to keep it balanced vs enemy Defenses, so that skill combat isn't vastly superior to weapons combat. But as I said, these are still just vague ideas in my head right now.

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 09:56 AM
Those look pretty good. Though, personally I'd take out the references to Xanatos, since those are fairly unStar Warsy references.

I'd also say for the Force Powers thing, adding the +1 if Trained seems a bit pointless since you can't use Force Powers unless your trained. Perhaps a +2 if Focused only, unless there's a reason for the way you have it set up I'm not getting.

Because Persuasion is so powerful as is without the ability to automatically end encounters, maybe when using Lecture if performing another Persuasion ability as well you suffer a -5 penalty.

Since Pilot and Use the Force have abilities tied to them already, I'd don't worry about Focused abilities yet.

For Use Computer, perhaps
Skilled Hacker= You can Access Information and Disable or Erase Program with a computer of any attitude. Increase the DC by +5 if the computer is Unfriendly, and by +10 if the computer is Hostile.

There are a rare few ways to get to use UtF without being Trained, so it's that way for consistency - ideally, all skills used to attack with would follow a similar progression.

I want to add at least one Focused usage for every skill, even if they're really minor, like for Perception and Deception. I'll be working on stuff for the rest soon.


I'm mostly thinking of it in terms of my own homebrew, which I've yet to really get off the ground. It's going to be a more realistic & generic Sci-Fi using the SW Saga ruleset (since the one Star Wars game I ran ended horribly and I realized one of the reasons is that I despise Star Wars as a game setting), and I'm going to do a bunch of little tweaks here and there to make it more balanced (such as the aforementioned changing of attack bonus, defenses and skill checks to a half-level progression).

If everything's going to half level, I don't really understand why you would lower any of it to half level...?

You may be pleased to know that one of my minor objectives was to provide expansion to include rules for running Halo, Mass Effect, and other more generic sci-fi within the Saga ruleset - if there was community interest. Any interest in that?

Vermithrax
2010-05-31, 06:23 PM
If everything's going to half level, I don't really understand why you would lower any of it to half level...?
He's referring to a problem that occurs at later levels with numerical mechanics that interact with each other, but scale at different rates.

For example, if your base attack bonus scales at 1/2 level, but everybody's reflex defenses scale at twice that, by level 40 you will be completely incapable of hitting another character of equal level to your own and it gets worse from there. (I discuss possible fixes here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8093.0).)

I don't know if this becomes a problem before the level cap in SWSG, but any attempt to houserule beyond it will eventually run into this problem (not that that's your intention, though it may be his).


You may be pleased to know that one of my minor objectives was to provide expansion to include rules for running Halo, Mass Effect, and other more generic sci-fi within the Saga ruleset - if there was community interest. Any interest in that?
I'm interested! Babylon 5, Firefly and Stargate come to mind.

AstralFire
2010-06-01, 01:27 PM
If you want to start work on that as a parallel project - esp. as I know nothing about Babylon or Stargate - be my guest. I'm focusing on the skills and stuff right now, but it'd be a good thing to split up on, since I don't have all the time in the world and people have different interests.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-09, 08:51 PM
He's referring to a problem that occurs at later levels with numerical mechanics that interact with each other, but scale at different rates.

For example, if your base attack bonus scales at 1/2 level, but everybody's reflex defenses scale at twice that, by level 40 you will be completely incapable of hitting another character of equal level to your own and it gets worse from there. (I discuss possible fixes here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8093.0).)

I don't know if this becomes a problem before the level cap in SWSG, but any attempt to houserule beyond it will eventually run into this problem (not that that's your intention, though it may be his).

Correct. The problem is mostly noticeable in the huge difference in effectiveness of Force Powers between level 1 and level 20. At level 1, your training in UtF (plus Skill Focus which most Jedi I've seen will take ASAP) is a huge weight in your favor on the balance between a basic Skill check against the target's Defense score (d20+0+AppropriateStat vs 11+ClassBonus+AppropriateStat), making Force powers trivially easy to land.

In contrast, at level 20 Skill vs Defense becomes d20+10+AppropriateStat vs 30+ClassBonus+AppropriateStat, and now you pretty much need both Skill Training and Skill Focus to have an even chance of success.

The problem is less pronounced with attack rolls, since attack bonuses don't scale as poorly as skill bonuses. But the fact remains that while Defenses scale at 1:1 rate with level, BAB varies between 1:1 and 3:4 and Skill checks scale at a rate of 1:2. IMO, everything should scale at the same rate, more or less (like the way D&D 4E is set up). That's going to be my solution to the problem, at any rate. Of course, this still leaves the problem of Skill Training plus Skill Focus providing too large a bonus, hence why I mentioned decreasing SF.

Gamgee
2010-08-23, 10:47 PM
Okay well I got a PM a hell of a long time ago, and it doesn't even look like this is being used anymore. However, I had an amazing idea for how skills should work.

We all know that skills right now can be less than stellar and don't really make sense if compared to real life. However, I think I can make a more engaging and rewarding play system and at the same time add just a dash of realism. A quick recap when taking a class your presented with some skills you can train in and it is so binary. It doesn't represent how people can acquire others skills and seems to assume that the only thing people know how to do are job related skills. So this means picking to be trained in x number of skills.

I propose that instead skills be group by attribute. So as a common example climb, jump and swim would all fall under strength. Now here's for the nifty. If you have a Strength modifier of +1 you can train in one skill grouped into strength. This makes more sense based on natural aptitudes, and of course spare time. There can even be an overlap in categorization if a need should arise. So for example persuasion could be taken from strength or from charisma. If taken from strength it represents a more physical and tough approach. Where as a charismatic approach is more social chameleon.

To solve the problem of trained skills from races if a race gains skill focus in it, instead they are simply trained in it for free. Now here is the why. Classes instead represent which skills you choose to focus in to advance your career. So you are presented a list of skills you can choose to skill focus in if you so desire.

This was a rough idea off the top of my head, but how does it sound?

Violet Octopus
2010-08-24, 11:22 AM
Under that, Scout, Scoundrel and Noble would need a class feature that gives them extra skill trainings beyond those provided by stats.

Also the conditional skill focus mechanic for species is one of my favourite parts about their writeup - it implements being awesome at something through cultural traditions instead of biology really well.

I haven't had any problem with the skill training system. SAGA gives you so many feats until you prestige class that my Ithorian Jedi character over the course of 8 levels got trained in two additional skills (one through Skill Training feat, one through Int increase). He was even able to take Skill Training in response to story events (deciding to learn mathematics and physics), which he couldn't do if learning new skills could only happen at levels 4, 8, 12,...

Decoupling skills known from INT is an interesting thought, though. While learning skills, even physical ones, is a key part of intelligence, the INT score really reflects only certain types of intelligence.

Gamgee
2010-08-24, 03:35 PM
Perhaps the more skill focused characters can get skill focus in a class skill at certain levels for free? Alternatively as you say they could simply have a few bonus skills to throw around. Also who says with this method we would get rid of skill training feats? This just gives players a broader base of skills to build from. It's not a set limit. It just strikes me as weird this hulking mammoth super strong soldier type but of average intelligence somehow can't figure out critical skills such as swimming, jumping and climbing. It's a penalizing skill system rather than a rewarding one.