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CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-26, 02:04 AM
I'm sure there is more than one way to get infinite power points somehow. Recently, the following combo was revealed to me.

"Torc of power preservation+Midnight augmentation+Bestow power: If you invest 2 essentia to MA, then you have that when manifesting Bestow Power, you can spend 6-2-1: 3 pp to gain 4pp-->Unlimited PP."

Obviously, standing there refilling your power point reservoir in this manner would take time, since you need to keep regaining your psionic focus. You're getting 1 PP a round, possibly 2 if you've got an extra psionic focus from your psicrystal and schism/quickening Bestow power, maybe.

That's not enough to refill you during a long fight, and is even inefficient when time is of the essence, especially if other peoples' buffs are ticking on the clock.

However, on a typical day of adventuring, this means that you could probably enter every encounter at your full power level. In an all-psionic team, you could serve as a psychic battery.

I'm not sure how i feel about this, as a DM. Part of me thinks it's actually pretty cool. It prevents the 'five minute adventuring day,' and really, the point of an adventure or dungeon is to complete it. If this encourages people to push forward and advance things, that's beneficial to the game.

Also, during extremely hectic, active, and drawn-out dungeons or battles, it's inefficient enough to not be an issue, so if you still wanted to test the character's durability, it wouldn't be that hard. The Battle of Brindol from Red Hand of Doom comes to mind: there's simply no time to sit there and recharge while an army invades. Similarly, if you want to keep a psion from doing this, you could ambush them with a surprise attack, etc., while they try to recharge.

However, resource management is the biggest challenge for a psion. Eliminate that need, and they pretty much make warlocks obsolete. Vancian casters would quickly grow jealous; thus I'd be more inclined to allow this in an all-psionic or ToB-heavy party.

Many psionic NPCs I've ran before usually blow as many PP on buffing themselves as they can, then still have plenty of PP remaining to fight. Heck, I can't remember any high level psion characters in any of my games ever running out of power points, even during harrowing, long-term fights or series of encounters. I honestly don't see infinite PP really changing that much in a high level game. A well-placed dispel still knocks out buffs, etc., there are ways to counter the combo. Infinite PP can also translate into infinite healing, depending on power selection, but again, at high levels HP matters increasingly less.

Also, it's a rather high-level combo, since a Torc of Power Preservation is a hefty 36,000 gp. Realistically, you wouldn't see it before level 12 and higher. By that point, the party should be teleporting, plane shifting, and basically doing whatever it wants, whenever it wants. Being at full strength for every encounter won't be too terribly unusual, especially if the party makes heavy use of scrying, buffing, and making fast, surgical strikes.

So... I don't know. Part of me likes the idea of a psion channeling the power of soul energy into an infinite well of psychic potential, sharing this font with his fellow psionic friends, and going nuts. However, the other part of me thinks this goes against the general spirit of D&D...

Any thoughts? Anyone have experience with infinite power point situations? They pretty much make the Metamind pointless, but that's a crappy class to begin with.

Safety Sword
2010-05-26, 02:34 AM
Sometimes my work FEELS link infinite Powerpoints... :smallconfused:

A big hey to all you Microsoft Office fans out there! :smallbiggrin:

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 02:38 AM
Sometimes my work FEELS link infinite Powerpoints... :smallconfused:

A big hey to all you Microsoft Office fans out there! :smallbiggrin:

I'd imagine having infinite PP's would feel good, not bad.

But really, inifnite power points aren't necesary, psionic classes just need to budget there powers.

Draz74
2010-05-26, 02:41 AM
Nitpick: According to a strict following of game rules, the XPH version of Torc of Power Preservation is no longer legal, having been nerfed in MIC.

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 02:43 AM
Nitpick: According to a strict following of game rules, the XPH version of Torc of Power Preservation is no longer legal, having been nerfed in MIC.

Don't quite see why they had to make it beyond useless though. :smallannoyed:

Draz74
2010-05-26, 02:48 AM
Don't quite see why they had to make it beyond useless though. :smallannoyed:

Me neither. :smallannoyed: One of my few quarrels with MIC.

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 02:54 AM
Oh, and back to the topic:

If anyone would want to have infinite PP's a day it should be some kind of artifact worked out to have some drawbacks. I don't see any sane DM wanting to allow it any other way.

Draz74
2010-05-26, 02:57 AM
Oh, and back to the topic:

If anyone would want to have infinite PP's a day it should be some kind of artifact worked out to have some drawbacks. I don't see any sane DM wanting to allow it any other way.

And here we have a demonstration that the Spell-to-Power Erudite is, in fact, more insanely powerful than artifacts ...

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-26, 02:58 AM
1 level dip of Binder to get Nebarius and Body Fuel. Nebarius takes care of the ability damage, so you can regain all power points back with just a little time spent. You end up gaining 2 Power Points every round at the expense of nothing.

I think that infinite spells or power point tricks are all generally legal, but I would never allow them in an actual game. Spell/Psionics are supposed to be balanced around the notion that you have to use them intelligently because even though they are very powerful, running out means that you are no longer useful. With an infinite trick, there is nothing stopping something like a Kineticist from blowing all his power points in a single round with Temporal Acceleration + Delay Power. So what if he uses all his power points to end the battle? All he has to do is find a nice corner where he can shoot his points right back to full.

In a ToB heavy party, it still wouldn't be ok because ToB is balanced around the notion that they can use several of the abilities constantly. Warblades are balanced around being able to do something forever, which is why they probably don't have abilities that mimic spells more closely. Hell, a mind control focused Telepath could control the entire world if they were given a way to regenerate their power points throughout the day. How is the fact that everyone being able to do their abilities all the time fair when some things are just flat out more powerful than others?

The "five minute adventure day" is a problem and it is very difficult to fix. One of the first things is providing players with an easier way to regenerate health when out of combat. Maybe letting people regain spells multiple times per day if they rest for 4 hours instead of 8 might work. I was in a game once where the DM just dictated when someone was able to regain spells. While this sounds annoying, it actually worked because it made players have to ration and if the players were ever getting hit really bad or just finished or are about to go into a big battle, they could rest.

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 03:13 AM
1 level dip of Binder to get Nebarius and Body Fuel. Nebarius takes care of the ability damage, so you can regain all power points back with just a little time spent. You end up gaining 2 Power Points every round at the expense of nothing.

I think that infinite spells or power point tricks are all generally legal, but I would never allow them in an actual game. Spell/Psionics are supposed to be balanced around the notion that you have to use them intelligently because even though they are very powerful, running out means that you are no longer useful. With an infinite trick, there is nothing stopping something like a Kineticist from blowing all his power points in a single round with Temporal Acceleration + Delay Power. So what if he uses all his power points to end the battle? All he has to do is find a nice corner where he can shoot his points right back to full.

In a ToB heavy party, it still wouldn't be ok because ToB is balanced around the notion that they can use several of the abilities constantly. Warblades are balanced around being able to do something forever, which is why they probably don't have abilities that mimic spells more closely. Hell, a mind control focused Telepath could control the entire world if they were given a way to regenerate their power points throughout the day. How is the fact that everyone being able to do their abilities all the time fair when some things are just flat out more powerful than others?

The "five minute adventure day" is a problem and it is very difficult to fix. One of the first things is providing players with an easier way to regenerate health when out of combat. Maybe letting people regain spells multiple times per day if they rest for 4 hours instead of 8 might work. I was in a game once where the DM just dictated when someone was able to regain spells. While this sounds annoying, it actually worked because it made players have to ration and if the players were ever getting hit really bad or just finished or are about to go into a big battle, they could rest.

For one the ability Burn caused by body fuel can only be healed naturally. Either way it's not ability damage or drain so can't be healed by naberius.

The five minute adventuring day depends on the DM a lot. Time isn't infinite you know. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-26, 03:17 AM
1 level dip of Binder to get Nebarius and Body Fuel. Nebarius takes care of the ability damage, so you can regain all power points back with just a little time spent. You end up gaining 2 Power Points every round at the expense of nothing. Nebarius heals Stat Damage. Body Fuel causes Stat BURN which explicitly cannot be healed by magical means.


Ability Burn

This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers. It returns only through natural healing.

So that trick doesn't work.

Endarire
2010-05-26, 03:34 AM
The feat Earth Power (Races of Stone) reduces PP cost by 1 to a min of 1.

Lev
2010-05-26, 03:36 AM
Solution to 5 min adventure day is way easier a fix than it sounds.
Throw in some chase scenes, large scale plot devices like cult cells, interrogations, possessions, have them followed and attempted assassination during sleeping-- any character who burns through all their spells or uses raw force to win is clearly not expecting surprises, if you don't want that then don't act like surprises aren't going to happen so the players aren't so resistant when you want a surprise to come along.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-26, 03:53 AM
Nebarius heals Stat Damage. Body Fuel causes Stat BURN which explicitly cannot be healed by magical means.

What about playing a warforged or undead?

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 03:58 AM
Ability Burn is not negated if you're immune to ability damage or drain.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-26, 04:20 AM
Ability Burn is not negated if you're immune to ability damage or drain.
But would it be negated if you simply do not have that ability? Not zero, simply not having a constitution score, period.

The_Snark
2010-05-26, 04:33 AM
Moot point; Body Fuel specifies that only living creatures can use it.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-26, 04:40 AM
Moot point; Body Fuel specifies that only living creatures can use it.
Good, I was just wondering.

Koury
2010-05-26, 04:43 AM
Isn't a warforged a living construct? Doesn't that count?

(I'm actually asking, by the way)

The_Snark
2010-05-26, 05:35 AM
Indeed they do, but warforged (and other living constructs) possess Constitution scores; it's a feature of the Living Construct subtype. So they benefit from—and pay for—the feat just as much as any other living creature would. =)

Claudius Maximus
2010-05-26, 06:43 AM
I'm fairly certain Body Fuel + Strongheart vest work together for infinite recovery power points as a nonaction with no drawbacks.

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 06:46 AM
I'm fairly certain Body Fuel + Strongheart vest work together for infinite recovery power points as a nonaction with no drawbacks.

I looked it up again and that works, by RAW. Seeing as it's called 'ability burn damage', and you're not healing it, but preventing it. However, that doesn't mean any sane DM would allow it, most would just say that you can't gain power points since you're not paying anything. However, if you would choose to take 2 points of ability burn damage it's reduced by 1, so you take 1 point of ability burn and gain 4 power points. I don't think many DM's would have a problem with that. Just a suggestion really.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 06:50 AM
Solution to 5 min adventure day is way easier a fix than it sounds.
Throw in some chase scenes, large scale plot devices like cult cells, interrogations, possessions, have them followed and attempted assassination during sleeping-- any character who burns through all their spells or uses raw force to win is clearly not expecting surprises, if you don't want that then don't act like surprises aren't going to happen so the players aren't so resistant when you want a surprise to come along.

That's not the fix to the 5 minute adventuring day he's looking for - it's very easy for Psionic characters to go nova even by accident, and he's looking for ways to get around that for his party.

IMO: If you want psionics to be rechargeable, introduce a slow recharge item rather than encouraging a rules exploit to do it. I think the idea has merit.


Which part do you and many other people not understand with body fuel? It's ability BURN, not ability damage or ability drain. It specificaly calls out that it's different, yet everyone seems to assume that it's the same.

Ability Burn: This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers (see Body Fuel on page 41 and psychofeedback on page 127). It returns only through natural healing.

If the item is preventing ability damage, then it might work by a strict reading, though I'd never allow it. (Not familiar with the item.) If it's healing the person, def.; the only way to rush ability burn healing is an extraordinary source.

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 06:58 AM
Ability Burn: This is a special form of ability damage that cannot be magically or psionically healed. It is caused by the use of certain psionic feats and powers (see Body Fuel on page 41 and psychofeedback on page 127). It returns only through natural healing.

If the item is preventing ability damage, then it might work by a strict reading, though I'd never allow it. (Not familiar with the item.) If it's healing the person, def.; the only way to rush ability burn healing is an extraordinary source.

Yeah, I read it up again, I was fairly certain though. Edited my last post in the hope I was fast enough. :smallbiggrin:

Jack_Simth
2010-05-26, 07:31 AM
If the item is preventing ability damage, then it might work by a strict reading, though I'd never allow it. (Not familiar with the item.) If it's healing the person, def.; the only way to rush ability burn healing is an extraordinary source.

So let's go with the take vs. Dealt distinction, then, as the Body Fuel feat specifies you get the PP when you "take" ability burn, not when you "deal" ability burn to yourself.

But Midnight Augmentation and Bestow Power can do it all by themselves, as well. You just need to invest enough Essentia into Midnight Augmentation.

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 07:43 AM
So let's go with the take vs. Dealt distinction, then, as the Body Fuel feat specifies you get the PP when you "take" ability burn, not when you "deal" ability burn to yourself.

But Midnight Augmentation and Bestow Power can do it all by themselves, as well. You just need to invest enough Essentia into Midnight Augmentation.

1. You can take to choose more ability burn damage to gain more power points, as such you could choose to take 2, which is then reduced by 1, and gain 4 power points. Which pretty much makes it a good combo to gain PP, just not infinite, and with definite drawbacks.

2. You'd need to invest 2 essentia and augment bestow power twice, which would get you 6 power points at the cost of 5. This is, ofcourse, assuming it reduces the augment cost for every time you augment it, so 3 - 2, not the total by which you augment it.

3. I by no means like infinite Power Points, and no DM I know would allow it if it's not under his direct control. (aka artifact with drawbacks)

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 08:52 AM
I'm surprised Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) hasn't been mentioned yet. This is one of many reasons to fear StP Erudites.

2xMachina
2010-05-26, 08:54 AM
Earth Power also works. Not too sure on the whole thing, but I've seen it.

Might need link power and some such too.

9mm
2010-05-26, 09:29 AM
I'm fairly certain Body Fuel + Strongheart vest work together for infinite recovery power points as a nonaction with no drawbacks.

My "Machine Factory" ToS build used this; to reliably produce 1000+ fully augmented astral constructs... Infinite powerpoints can lead to very bad things.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-26, 09:43 AM
My "Machine Factory" ToS build used this; to reliably produce 1000+ fully augmented astral constructs... Infinite powerpoints can lead to very bad things.

I didn't think of metacreativity... A Constructor, or clever use of metapsionics, can lead to the aforementioned legion of servitors... that would be bad.

Also, powers like Fabricate and the Creation line could also be problematic.

I think that actually seals it, for me. You would need to have some serious trust in your players not to abuse infinite power points, even if there are several RAW ways to achieve it.

With Earth Power, you might be able to pull it off even earlier, before level 12. If you can somehow fit the feats, you could pull it off as low as 6th level.

Hmm...

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 09:48 AM
I didn't think of metacreativity... A Constructor, or clever use of metapsionics, can lead to the aforementioned legion of servitors... that would be bad.

Also, powers like Fabricate and the Creation line could also be problematic.

I think that actually seals it, for me. You would need to have some serious trust in your players not to abuse infinite power points, even if there are several RAW ways to achieve it.

With Earth Power, you might be able to pull it off even earlier, before level 12. If you can somehow fit the feats, you could pull it off as low as 6th level.

Hmm...

Don't think of ways for infinite PP, instead think of ways to maximize there performance using less PP's. Or a limited regeneration method, like body fuel.(but more effective)

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-26, 09:56 AM
My favorite means of getting infinite power points wasn't used in an abusive fashion. In a high-level, high-psionics campaign, we captured a metamind who had been bugging us for some time, so rather than kill him I (also a psion) decided to have a bit of fun. He had a dorje of apopsi which he used to render his captives powerless, so we gave him a dose of his own medicine, deleting all of his powers. The ardent in the group gave him temporal reiteration and bestow power via psychic chirurgery and I dominated him. Then we went out and found a brain mole. :smallamused:

We kept him playing with the brain mole until he got cascade flu, then ordered him to use Font of Power. Temporal iteration kept Font of Power up indefinitely, and bestow power had a 50% chance to give someone else 2 PP, so he sat there all day sneezing and giving us power points. Not efficient by any means, but damn was it funny.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-26, 10:09 AM
In light of the infinite astral construct potential, suddenly the Complete Psionic astral construct nerf seems like a worthwhile addition.

Is there an equivalent metapsionic feat to Persistent Spell?

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 10:13 AM
In light of the infinite astral construct potential, suddenly the Complete Psionic astral construct nerf seems like a worthwhile addition.

Is there an equivalent metapsionic feat to Persistent Spell?

1. No, I hate it. :smallannoyed:
More of a personal opinion though.

2. In a 3rd party book, Hyperconcious, there is Persistent Power. It has some fairly nice things overall.

okpokalypse
2010-05-26, 01:29 PM
In light of the infinite astral construct potential, suddenly the Complete Psionic astral construct nerf seems like a worthwhile addition.

Is there an equivalent metapsionic feat to Persistent Spell?

Technically, doesn't the Persistant Power feat carry over from the Psionics' Handbook v3.0? I was always under the impression that, unless the Class/Power/Feat was changed in a subsequent 3.5 or later text, the things from 3.0 Sourcebooks were still valid. In my current campaign this is the general ruling provided the DM gets to review it 1st to make sure someone's not trying to slip in brokenness - like the Uber Critical & 2WF feats from the old Master's of the Wild book :)

If that's the case, it's a +8 PSP expenditure to use it.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 01:30 PM
3.0 Psionics and 3.5 Psionics are totally different systems, so that rule is a bit more shaky in that case, IMO.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-26, 01:31 PM
I was always under the impression that, unless the Class/Power/Feat was changed in a subsequent 3.5 or later text, the things from 3.0 Sourcebooks were still valid.

Normally true. However, XPH replaces the entirety of PsiH, because it's a different system; it's a different case than, for instance, an Oriental Adventures class that wasn't mentioned in the Dragon update, as metapsionic in the old version works completely differently than in the new version.

2xMachina
2010-05-26, 01:34 PM
/me wants BoED/BoVD/SS/etc for 3.5 :smallfrown:

Machiavellian
2010-05-26, 01:36 PM
I hate the thought of IPP. >P This is new-age hippie crap.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-26, 01:38 PM
Without access to any other sources, I'd say a +12 PP increase, only affecting personal range powers, would probably be a decent Persistent Power feat. The need to expend psionic focus is negated in this case, since you wouldn't ever use this in combat.

So persistent Astral Constructs would be impossible, so the CPsi nerf would probably not be needed. Still, the potential to produce a group of Extended constructs at high levels could be concerning, but it's nothing much more than what a high level Malconvoker can do, with better summons than constructs anyway (never mind planar binding, etc.)

There has to be something more game-breaking with infinite power points that I haven't considered...

At first I thought infinite clairsentience powers could be problematic, but having infinite Remote Viewings wouldn't be that useful, considering the hour long manifesting time. Also, high level clairsentience powers like Metafaculty have an XP cost...

Infinite metamorphosis seems to be the biggest threat, but I already heavily nerf/encourage to not use shape changing powers/spells anyway.

9mm
2010-05-26, 01:42 PM
I didn't think of metacreativity... A Constructor, or clever use of metapsionics, can lead to the aforementioned legion of servitors... that would be bad.

Also, powers like Fabricate and the Creation line could also be problematic.

I think that actually seals it, for me. You would need to have some serious trust in your players not to abuse infinite power points, even if there are several RAW ways to achieve it.

With Earth Power, you might be able to pull it off even earlier, before level 12. If you can somehow fit the feats, you could pull it off as low as 6th level.

Hmm...

please note that 1000+ was done over the course of 11 hours of non-stop manifesting with schism. Out side of scism and standard temporal acceleration... infinite constructs means you cannot do anything else. so it's practicallity is more limited in real play; but there are ways to have a bunch of fun times with Astrals when you have no cap.



Without access to any other sources, I'd say a +12 PP increase, only affecting personal range powers, would probably be a decent Persistent Power feat. The need to expend psionic focus is negated in this case, since you wouldn't ever use this in combat.

So persistent Astral Constructs would be impossible, so the CPsi nerf would probably not be needed. Still, the potential to produce a group of Extended constructs at high levels could be concerning, but it's nothing much more than what a high level Malconvoker can do, with better summons than constructs anyway (never mind planar binding, etc.)

There has to be something more game-breaking with infinite power points that I haven't considered...

At first I thought infinite clairsentience powers could be problematic, but having infinite Remote Viewings wouldn't be that useful, considering the hour long manifesting time. Also, high level clairsentience powers like Metafaculty have an XP cost...

Infinite metamorphosis seems to be the biggest threat, but I already heavily nerf/encourage to not use shape changing powers/spells anyway.

Infinate powerpoints in general means the following: a psionic character will always be able to manifest any power known at any time. be it the ablity to creat an small force for the day (I believe the machine factory had 2 hours left of life for his ealiest created constrcuct) or non-stop energy balls. so the question is: if you couldn't stop bending reality with your mind what would you do?

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-26, 01:46 PM
please note that 1000+ was done over the course of 11 hours of non-stop manifesting with schism. Out side of scism and standard temporal acceleration... infinite constructs means you cannot do anything else. so it's practicallity is more limited in real play; but there are ways to have a bunch of fun times with Astrals when you have no cap.

So were they just a bunch of level 1 constructs?

Move action: regain psionic focus
Standard: manifest Bestow Power (regain 1 PP)
Schism'd: manifest Astral Construct

(unless you had some other infinite PP thing?)
Also, how did you get that much temporal acceleration going? Wouldn't you have run out of power eventually?

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 01:54 PM
2. In a 3rd party book, Hyperconcious, there is Persistent Power. It has some fairly nice things overall.

It was also written by Bruce Cordell, the same bloke who wrote the XPH in the first place.
(I say that a lot when HCis mentioned, but it does bear repeating.)


/me wants BoED/BoVD/SS/etc for 3.5 :smallfrown:

One of those is 3.5: BoED.
(One easy way to tell is by looking at damage reduction. 3.0 has phrases like "DR 10/+1," while 3.5 has "DR 10/magic", etc.)

9mm
2010-05-26, 01:58 PM
So were they just a bunch of level 1 constructs?

Move action: regain psionic focus
Standard: manifest Bestow Power (regain 1 PP)
Schism'd: manifest Astral Construct

(unless you had some other infinite PP thing?)
Also, how did you get that much temporal acceleration going? Wouldn't you have run out of power eventually?

I was using the body-feul+strongheart vest trick to gain my inifinite pp.
after that it was manfest scism and off to the races of burning pp and regaining it as a non-action, pausing only when I needed to bring back up scism, using class skills (constructor if memory serves) to make them count as all day for TOS purposes only (each one would last 13 hours). after that they'd just charge towards their target and explode.

NEO|Phyte
2010-05-26, 02:12 PM
I'm surprised Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) hasn't been mentioned yet. This is one of many reasons to fear StP Erudites.

It's only useful in short bursts, what with the granted PP vanishing after the duration ends.

Also, not sure how much the StP stuff 'rewrites' spells to account for the new source, but wouldn't it also temporarily cripple your power list?

2xMachina
2010-05-26, 02:18 PM
Erudite: No power known limit.

Also has a horrendously high number of Unique Powers per Day at high lvls.

11 powers per power level at lvl 20. That makes it 99 UPpP.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-26, 02:22 PM
Erudite: No power known limit.

Also has a horrendously high number of Unique Powers per Day at high lvls.

11 powers per power level at lvl 20. That makes it 99 UPpP.

I'm pretty sure he meant that mental pinnacle only lets you use 5 powers, and wasn't sure whether that applied to the erudite.

Scipio
2010-05-26, 02:25 PM
Nitpick: According to a strict following of game rules, the XPH version of Torc of Power Preservation is no longer legal, having been nerfed in MIC.

I do not have the MIC, but my psion monk is looking to buy the XPH version of the sweet ToPP. What did they change?

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 02:25 PM
It was also written by Bruce Cordell, the same bloke who wrote the XPH in the first place.
(I say that a lot when HCis mentioned, but it does bear repeating.)


I'll try to remember that next time I mention Hyperconcious.

-bleep-
It was also written by Bruce Cordell, the same bloke who wrote the XPH in the first place.
-bleep-
:smallbiggrin:

NEO|Phyte
2010-05-26, 02:30 PM
I do not have the MIC, but my psion monk is looking to buy the XPH version of the sweet ToPP. What did they change?

Cheaper, but only usable 3/day.

Claudius Maximus
2010-05-26, 02:31 PM
There has to be something more game-breaking with infinite power points that I haven't considered...

An Ardent/Sorcerer/Rainbow Servant/That one class from Bestiary of Krynn can eventually have every Sorc/Wiz buff and every Cleric buff up at all times with Temporal Reiteration. I'm sure you can do this more efficiently, and that there are better things to do.

Endarire
2010-05-26, 02:33 PM
As a DM I'm tempted to say, "Bestow power doesn't exist." I see no reason for it besides PP recharging.

Also, from my understanding, the Magic Item Compendium Torc of Power Preservation is a separate item than the Expanded Psionics Handbook one. I've seen no note that says, "These items completely replace the old versions."

Scipio
2010-05-26, 02:33 PM
Cheaper, but only usable 3/day.

The nerfbat can be useful, but this is ridiculous. It would have to be a lot cheaper to make it worth it. Like maybe a giveaway. Saving yourself 1 pp 3/day is not too special.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 02:39 PM
It's quite possible to do infinite pp fairly, whether you have regenerating magic variants involved or not. However, this requires the DM to approve it, and either a few changes to the psionics system, or needs certain build requirements.

Build-wise, ensure that your manifester level is never more than 1/2 of your ECL (round up; infinite 1-pp powers at level 1 is nowhere near broken). Overchannel is fine, although wild surge may need a more stable downside. In this case, you don't even have to keep tabs on your pp-total, since 1/2 ML powers at-will are fine, power-level-wise (though some of the stronger options - ego whip, for instance - may need to be revised or excised). Psychic warriors would likely be fine as-is. This is the easiest method.

As for revision the psionics system to allow for infinite pp? Reduce the number of power points granted to psions and wilders to a smaller fraction. Early on, it's not a huge deal, but the higher the level the smaller the proportion of their full pp-total they should get. Let's say they get ML * 3 power points, and regenerate their pp total at ML * 1 per round, starting 4 or 5 rounds after they first start manifesting. Since powers are usable nearly at-will, you would want to rebalance most of the duration-based powers to avoid being constantly buffed by every single power the manifester knows (although the hour/lvl and 10 min/lvl powers would probably still be fine). This would force manifesters to juggle between going all-out with their augmentations, and holding a bit in reserve for when they dry up. Lower levels can be supplemented with psionic feats (such as Psionic Shot and a crossbow), while higher levels would grant far more options, and allow the character to somewhat nova, without worrying so much about running out and being entirely useless for the rest of the day. This way requires a lot of work, and a bit more bookkeeping. It also would need a lot of playtesting, for sure.

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 03:01 PM
It's quite possible to do infinite pp fairly, whether you have regenerating magic variants involved or not. However, this requires the DM to approve it, and either a few changes to the psionics system, or needs certain build requirements.

Build-wise, ensure that your manifester level is never more than 1/2 of your ECL (round up; infinite 1-pp powers at level 1 is nowhere near broken). Overchannel is fine, although wild surge may need a more stable downside. In this case, you don't even have to keep tabs on your pp-total, since 1/2 ML powers at-will are fine, power-level-wise (though some of the stronger options - ego whip, for instance - may need to be revised or excised). Psychic warriors would likely be fine as-is. This is the easiest method.

As for revision the psionics system to allow for infinite pp? Reduce the number of power points granted to psions and wilders to a smaller fraction. Early on, it's not a huge deal, but the higher the level the smaller the proportion of their full pp-total they should get. Let's say they get ML * 3 power points, and regenerate their pp total at ML * 1 per round, starting 4 or 5 rounds after they first start manifesting. Since powers are usable nearly at-will, you would want to rebalance most of the duration-based powers to avoid being constantly buffed by every single power the manifester knows (although the hour/lvl and 10 min/lvl powers would probably still be fine). This would force manifesters to juggle between going all-out with their augmentations, and holding a bit in reserve for when they dry up. Lower levels can be supplemented with psionic feats (such as Psionic Shot and a crossbow), while higher levels would grant far more options, and allow the character to somewhat nova, without worrying so much about running out and being entirely useless for the rest of the day. This way requires a lot of work, and a bit more bookkeeping. It also would need a lot of playtesting, for sure.

Or, alternatively, have a few powers at will which you can augment with a per encounter PP pool. See it as a mix between the warlock, factotum, and manifesting. Not as the 4.0 psionics. :smallbiggrin:

Obviously that would need to be completely reworked to be balanced, but still.

Theodoxus
2010-05-26, 03:02 PM
My next campaign is using spell points, as well as power points, and instead of an 8 hour rest period, I'm dividing their points by 32, and thats how many they regain every 15 minutes - active or not. So, while not infinite, they should have a bit of a pool available even if they had completely nova'd the previous encounter. If it gets abused, I might start using the fatigue rules from UA was well... gonna play that by ear.

Draz74
2010-05-26, 03:05 PM
Also, from my understanding, the Magic Item Compendium Torc of Power Preservation is a separate item than the Expanded Psionics Handbook one. I've seen no note that says, "These items completely replace the old versions."

Nope. Same name, same item. This is the general rule with "Compendium" books, and reinforced by the footnote "You Changed My Magic Items!" on p.4 of MIC.

Mind you, most of the changes MIC made to items were very good ideas. The Torc is a rare exception to that rule.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 03:24 PM
Nope. Same name, same item. This is the general rule with "Compendium" books, and reinforced by the footnote "You Changed My Magic Items!" on p.4 of MIC.

Mind you, most of the changes MIC made to items were very good ideas. The Torc is a rare exception to that rule.It's also not errata, so you can use the old version if you want, as the original is still viable due to that fact.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 03:29 PM
It's only useful in short bursts, what with the granted PP vanishing after the duration ends.

Everytime you manifest it, however, you refresh the duration - therefore the duration won't end, since MP pays for itself.


Also, not sure how much the StP stuff 'rewrites' spells to account for the new source, but wouldn't it also temporarily cripple your power list?

No, it wouldn't - StP Erudites never actually cast spells, so you're basically replacing the zero spells they have with the spells granted by MP every time you manifest it as a power.

"Because the spells are now effectively psionic powers, they are no longer affected by metamagic feats. However, metapsionic feats can affect them as they would a psionic power."

Endarire
2010-05-26, 03:31 PM
Since Complete Psionic references but never officially replaced certain Expanded Psionics Handbook powers like energy missile and astral construct, does this mean the old versions are RAW legal?

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 03:33 PM
Since Complete Psionic references but never officially replaced certain Expanded Psionics Handbook powers like energy missile and astral construct, does this mean the old versions are RAW legal?

I don't recommend it for Energy Missile, the fix is an actualfix with that power. But with Astral Construct... I wouldn't use it as it is in CPs

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 03:35 PM
I don't recommend it for Energy Missile, the fix is an actualfix with that power. But with Astral Construct... I wouldn't use it as it is in CPsI wouldn't play a shaper in a game with the AC nerf. I'd play a summoning druid, instead.

Ferrin
2010-05-26, 03:38 PM
I wouldn't play a shaper in a game with the AC nerf. I'd play a summoning druid, instead.

With Greenbound Summoning to punish your DM? :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't play a shaper in a game with the AC nerf. I'd play a summoning druid, instead.

Eh, I might. Sure they're weaker, but you're still tier 2.

Though I might be an Ardent or an Erudite instead, for a little more punch.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-26, 03:52 PM
Eh, I might. Sure they're weaker, but you're still tier 2.

Though I might be an Ardent or an Erudite instead, for a little more punch.

It's not really a matter of power, I think; it's a combination of other casters being able to have bunches of minions and the shaper only getting one at a time, and the fact that nerfing AC but not other summons when the reason given applies to other casters more so than the shaper is just a "screw you" to psionics.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 03:53 PM
Since Complete Psionic references but never officially replaced certain Expanded Psionics Handbook powers like energy missile and astral construct, does this mean the old versions are RAW legal?

Yes. They're variants, not errata.

olentu
2010-05-26, 04:14 PM
Yes. They're variants, not errata.

Eh it can just as easily be argued that the original book overrides the later book where they conflict and so only the original is allowed.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 04:19 PM
It's not really a matter of power, I think; it's a combination of other casters being able to have bunches of minions and the shaper only getting one at a time, and the fact that nerfing AC but not other summons when the reason given applies to other casters more so than the shaper is just a "screw you" to psionics.

True, but if there are no other casters but psionicists in your game to compare to, that doesn't really matter.

I agree that in a mixed-campaign, psionics would need the boost to be on or near even-footing.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-26, 04:34 PM
Eh it can just as easily be argued that the original book overrides the later book where they conflict and so only the original is allowed.

Personally, I'd use the two torcs alongside each other in a game. If you just change the price while keeping an item mostly the same or make other minor changes, I can see replacing it; it's like updating a class with changes from 3.0, in that it's "close enough" to be a replacement. But in this particular case, the utility and price have both dropped so dramatically (the former more so than the latter) that I don't see any reason they couldn't coexist.

olentu
2010-05-26, 05:14 PM
Personally, I'd use the two torcs alongside each other in a game. If you just change the price while keeping an item mostly the same or make other minor changes, I can see replacing it; it's like updating a class with changes from 3.0, in that it's "close enough" to be a replacement. But in this particular case, the utility and price have both dropped so dramatically (the former more so than the latter) that I don't see any reason they couldn't coexist.

While I was talking about something else for my part it is because I prefer something that is a bit more consistent.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-05-26, 05:19 PM
While I was talking about something else for my part it is because I prefer something that is a bit more consistent.

I realize; I was responding more to the back-and-forth on "MIC is primary source!" "XPH is!" "Is not!" etc. than to your post in particular. Who cares whether it's the MIC by the latest source rule or XPH by the specificity rule or errata or whatever else; just use both of them and move on.

olentu
2010-05-26, 05:31 PM
I realize; I was responding more to the back-and-forth on "MIC is primary source!" "XPH is!" "Is not!" etc. than to your post in particular. Who cares whether it's the MIC by the latest source rule or XPH by the specificity rule or errata or whatever else; just use both of them and move on.

I find that I like debating things, as otherwise I would not participate, but I can see that it might not appeal to everyone.

term1nally s1ck
2010-05-26, 05:46 PM
You have to deal with either the infinite PP, or the ability to use synchronicity, twin power, and schism to spam all your PP at one opponent, in one turn. Otherwise, they just nuke the encounter, recover PP for an hour or two, then do it again.

Mark Hall
2010-05-26, 05:52 PM
Sometimes my work FEELS link infinite Powerpoints... :smallconfused:

A big hey to all you Microsoft Office fans out there! :smallbiggrin:

Ok, that's hilarious. You win 1 internet!

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 06:06 PM
Eh, I might. Sure they're weaker, but you're still tier 2.

Though I might be an Ardent or an Erudite instead, for a little more punch.By 'summoning druid' I mean 'a druid that has all the other options and uses them, but summons a ton and buffs the hell out of them as a primary tactic.'

Still tier 1, especially since I'd be a wingéd mouse or something, and also doing battlefield control and buffing my fleshraker animal companion as well.

Draz74
2010-05-26, 06:39 PM
By 'summoning druid' I mean 'a druid that has all the other options and uses them, but summons a ton and buffs the hell out of them as a primary tactic.'

Still tier 1, especially since I'd be a wingéd mouse or something, and also doing battlefield control and buffing my fleshraker animal companion as well.

The "still Tier 2" comment you quoted was referring to a Shaper who has to deal with the CPsi nerf.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-26, 06:42 PM
The "still Tier 2" comment you quoted was referring to a Shaper who has to deal with the CPsi nerf.Ah. Reading back with that in mind, I do believe you're correct.

It's still an unfair restriction, however, and I'd go with a The Big Guy Is With Me build or something, instead, if I decided to stick with psion.

Draz74
2010-05-26, 06:47 PM
Meh. Personally, I still don't think I would particularly mind the CPsi nerf if I were playing a Shaper. (As long as my Constructor class features for utility constructs and double constructs were an exception to the rule.)

Would I mind if there were also a Summoning Druid in the party, to make the nerf feel more unfair? Yeah, but only a little bit more than I'd mind any summon-spamming ally, regardless of whether the CPsi nerf is implemented. (The slowing down of the game via spammed minions would bother me more than the unfair double-standard nerf.)