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View Full Version : Refluffing and progression alteration to prestige classes



ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-26, 06:05 PM
So I'm curious as to peoples opinions on refluffing and altering prestige classes.

My personal opinion is that I hate early entry tricks. I think they're like cheating. This is a personal opinion though and I respect other's opinion that they are the only way to do some gish or multicaster PrC's

I ususally prefer to give PrC's full spellcasting when they dont have it or refluff prestige classes to fit characters themes, rather than allow early entry to things.

For example: re-fluff ur priest to be good aligned (exalted deeds good)

or: giving moonguardian full spellcasting (i mean come on they already sacrificed a ton for the level adjustment.)

So, what are your opinions on such things. . .

Private-Prinny
2010-05-26, 06:11 PM
On a basic level, I detest early entry, but I am willing to do it if I need it to fit a theme. Really, the only early entry I have a problem with is the use of Sanctum Spell.

Toying with casting progression can be dangerous. It can make classes go from bad to too good, or from balanced to lacking.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-26, 06:13 PM
True, it's a case by case on how much you give to what. bu in the long run i'd feel it ws better than early entry. some early entry is so ridiculous you might as well just let them be gestalt.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-26, 06:31 PM
True, it's a case by case on how much you give to what. bu in the long run i'd feel it ws better than early entry. some early entry is so ridiculous you might as well just let them be gestalt.

If you want to get really cheesy, you can take Versatile Spellcaster and Sanctum Spell as your two feats as a human Beguiler. Denote a certain Dragonblood Pool as your sanctum, so you can use two first level slots as a second, to cast a Sanctum Spell'd second level spell, meaning it counts as a third level spell. You can therefore gain a third level slot, which, with Sanctum Spell, can technically qualify you as "Able to cast 4th level arcane spells" at level one.

IIRC. I could be (and hope I am) wrong.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 06:37 PM
I see it the other way - mainly, that if a player is willing to jump through that many hoops, that he has a really conceptual reason to do so and therefore should be allowed.

After all, it's not like a MT has many more actions than a straight Wizard or Cleric, and even with early entry he's still going to be 1-3 levels behind on either side.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-26, 06:40 PM
I see early entry as completely defeating the spirit of a prestige class.

that said I acknowledge that many prestige classes deafeat their own spirit by being unfeasible in terms of keeping up with the party (MT is a prime example of this). Hence progression alteration or refluff to the prestige classes, rather than the allowance of early entry.

in terms of mystic theruge i would honestly see giving them special abilities to allow for synergy between their dual casting as better than early entry.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-26, 06:42 PM
I see it the other way - mainly, that if a player is willing to jump through that many hoops, that he has a really conceptual reason to do so and therefore should be allowed.

I feel the same way. If you need it to fit a concept, then fine, you're probably not optimizing anyway, but if you're doing it so you can get Double 9's and Incantatrix, then rocks will fall.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 06:46 PM
Generally, rocks should fall on Incantatrix anyway.
(And Planar Shepherd, Dweomerkeeper, and Tainted Scholar.)

But getting dual 9s isn't a big deal, since you'll generally be getting them later than single-class characters.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-26, 06:47 PM
if you're doing it so you can get Double 9's and Incantatrix, then rocks will fall.

in my experience this is what most early entrants are trying for



But getting dual 9s isn't a big deal, since you'll generally be getting them later than single-class characters.

So if you get 9 on one side one level later than a straight class caster, (at the same time as a sorcerer if you happen to be a wizard), and have an entire other side of spell progression you at your disposal and that's not even slightly overpowered? (honest question, not sarcasm)

Private-Prinny
2010-05-26, 06:48 PM
Generally, rocks should fall on Incantatrix anyway.
(And Planar Shepherd, Dweomerkeeper, and Tainted Scholar.)

But getting dual 9s isn't a big deal, since you'll generally be getting them later than single-class characters.

If you use Beholder Mage and Ur-Priest (2 other blasphemies on paper), I think you can get dual 9s before a single class character gets one.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 06:49 PM
in my experience this is what most early entrants are trying for

The reasonable ones just want 9th-level spells before epic.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-26, 06:54 PM
The reasonable ones just want 9th-level spells before epic.

The reasonable ones accept 9th level spells by 19th only on one side.

Pluto
2010-05-26, 07:00 PM
edit:

So if you get 9 on one side one level later than a straight class caster, (at the same time as a sorcerer if you happen to be a wizard), and have an entire other side of spell progression you at your disposal and that's not even slightly overpowered? (honest question, not sarcasm)
Not really. The other spellcaster probably has class features that make his casting more efficient (making each round worth more). The Theurge-type just has more spells.

And straight-classed prepared spellcasters already have access to one anothers' lists via Shapechange, Planar Binding, Summon Monster, etc.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-26, 07:01 PM
in my experience this is what most early entrants are trying for



So if you get 9 on one side one level later than a straight class caster, (at the same time as a sorcerer if you happen to be a wizard), and have an entire other side of spell progression you at your disposal and that's not even slightly overpowered? (honest question, not sarcasm)

Without a significant degree of optimization to back it up, not really IMO. Versatility can be power, but the real currency of power in D&D is action economy. Even with dual 9's, it just gives a full caster more options and more endurance, both of which top-level characters already have in spades.

dextercorvia
2010-05-26, 07:02 PM
The reasonable ones accept 9th level spells by 19th only on one side.

But even that isn't possible with MT without early entry.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 07:04 PM
The reasonable ones accept 9th level spells by 19th only on one side.

Why? What's the point of being a Mystic Theurge who is worse at spellcasting than a Cleric or a Wizard?

He's already got plenty of strikes against him - low hit die, MADness, and the extra spells don't even amount to much because he has (a) the same amount of encounters as a straight caster per day and (b) the same amount of actions with which to cast them. So all you're really doing by barring early entry is restricting a character concept.

Also, what dexter said.

Il_Vec
2010-05-26, 07:07 PM
The reasonable ones accept 9th level spells by 20th only on one side.

Fixed that. And that is assuming Class7/other class 3/MT10, in a class that has the same spell level access of the wizard, and no Ur-priest or similar.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-26, 07:16 PM
Why? What's the point of being a Mystic Theurge who is worse at spellcasting than a Cleric or a Wizard?


I never said mystic theruge worked(on the contrary i think the class is a giant blazing failure that needs some means of breaking action ecconomy or synergized arcane and divine spells to be made effective).

What I do think is that being a 19th level wizard-16th level cleric is overpowered.

It's my opinion that early entry, especially at the mid levels is broken in terms of concept.

I wanted peoples opinions on alternatives to early entry to make the prestige classes more reasonable. like increasing spellcasting or adding class features to make things more viable, or even just reflufing a classes alignment requirments.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-26, 08:01 PM
Well Ultimate Magus works quite well, asuming you allow practiced spellcaster and another +1 cl boost to sorceror to make it fully progress wizard. More PrC's could be made to work like it does. Preferably allowing either side to be the strong one.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 08:10 PM
What I do think is that being a 19th level wizard-16th level cleric is overpowered.

I still don't see why. Such a character would be MAD, would learn its big guns more slowly than a single class of either component (much more slowly in the Cleric's case), have no more actions with which to cast all those spells than a single-class caster, and have feats tied up in early entry (seriously, is Precocious Apprentice relevant past level 4? And he will need Practiced Spellcaster - perhaps twice! - or else eat dispels all day long) that the single-class caster can instead spend on DMM, reserve feats, etc.

He also doesn't have the turning or HD of a single-classed cleric, even if that were the "higher" side.

The only time that combination would truly overshadow a single-classed caster is if the DM throws more encounters/day at the party than the DMG recommends - which is effectively the DM skewing events in the MT's favor anyway.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-26, 08:11 PM
Why is early entry, in-universe, a problem? From an in-character perspective, all the character knows is that he casts arcane and divine spells. If he manages to find another mystic theurge (unlikely, if my experience is any indication), he might realize that his power blossomed a bit faster. But will the character ever find another mystic theurge? Will the character be able to compare rates of advancement? Will the character find it odd that his power grew faster?

There is no compelling in-character reason that early entry is broken (although some magical locations may be problematic), since prestige classes (especially Mystic Theurge) are not an in-universe contruct. Therefore, any problems caused by early entry must be derived from the mechanics; and early entry to Mystic Theurge is hardly the biggest problem that needs solving in that field.

Godskook
2010-05-26, 08:20 PM
Imho, Mystic Theurge exists for exactly 1 reason: Justifying other prestige classes of similar structure.

For instance, the famous Arcane Heirophant wouldn't be as good a class if a double-9s option wasn't available to it(Druid 3/Wiz 3/MT 2/AH 10/MT +2).

And that's what every general dual-caster needs, a useful primary prestige class like AH and a secondary one like MT that fills the holes so that you keep your progression up.

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 08:26 PM
Other theurges that work with MT:

Fochlucan Lyrist (lol)
Noctumancer
Eldritch Disciple
True Necromancer (shudder)

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 08:54 PM
If a player absolutely must have an early entry because the class sucks too much to build up to, my preferred method is to work out a 20 level class with them, myself.

Il_Vec
2010-05-26, 09:22 PM
Most of the Gish-like PrCs out there need to be more like Abjurant champion. One I've always wanted to find a way to make work is Rage Mage (Complete Warrior).

Optimystik
2010-05-26, 09:42 PM
If a player absolutely must have an early entry because the class sucks too much to build up to, my preferred method is to work out a 20 level class with them, myself.

It's not MT that sucks, it's the prereqs. Without early entry, you need to kill 3 levels on each side. You're screwed before your first MT level.

Hell, if they just extended MT to 15 it would be decent - dual 9s, and you could just take Practiced Spellcaster twice instead of worrying about Precocious Apprentice, ISK, Sanctum Spell et al.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-26, 09:55 PM
If a player absolutely must have an early entry because the class sucks too much to build up to, my preferred method is to work out a 20 level class with them, myself.

I like this approach to solving class problems. It's somthing i've done before. Rather than worry about a class that doesn't work, make somthing that does and fits the theme.




For instance, the famous Arcane Heirophant wouldn't be as good a class if a double-9s option wasn't available to it(Druid 3/Wiz 3/MT 2/AH 10/MT +2).


That build looks perfectly reasonable to me and is a prime example of why it bothers me when people try to use loopholes for early entry. You dont need to cheat(ie use a loophole) to make a good character. early entry isn't about the character its about being a powerful player.

The way i see it, you SHOULD sacrifice some power to do things like cast both Cleric and Wizard spells. your character has gained only so much experience. that experience is supposed to reflect the time/investment your character has made in learning their class. if you spend your whole life only doing one thing, you SHOULD be better at it than someone who has spent their life dividing their time between two things.

AstralFire
2010-05-26, 09:56 PM
It's not MT that sucks, it's the prereqs. Without early entry, you need to kill 3 levels on each side. You're screwed before your first MT level.

That's what I was saying. >_>


Hell, if they just extended MT to 15 it would be decent - dual 9s, and you could just take Practiced Spellcaster twice instead of worrying about Precocious Apprentice, ISK, Sanctum Spell et al.

I disallow MT, but I play at a lower level of power - it's also a really boring class. I feel stuff like Geomancer is onto something better as a class idea, if not for balance.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-27, 08:42 AM
That build looks perfectly reasonable to me
That build is unusually liable to die sometime around 6th level.


early entry isn't about the character its about being a powerful player.
Early entry will not necessarily break the game. A powergamer is only problematic inasfar as they cause balance problems; and if a player is going to cause balance problems, they're going to cause those problems whether they play a full caster or a mystic theurge.


The way i see it, you SHOULD sacrifice some power to do things like cast both Cleric and Wizard spells.
You do. You lose a caster level of Wizard. You take an opportunity cost, in that you have to take suboptimal feats and give up the potential to have other prestige class features. Focused wizards will be better at wizardry than people who spend their life dividing their time, early-entry or not.

Optimystik
2010-05-27, 09:12 AM
That's what I was saying. >_>

Did you mean "the build up sucks" rather than "the class sucks?" That was a weird way to word it if so.


I disallow MT, but I play at a lower level of power - it's also a really boring class. I feel stuff like Geomancer is onto something better as a class idea, if not for balance.

I agree the concept could use work (the Pathfinder MT does a lot more in that regard), but I see MT as a useful baseline all the same. After all, there are worse theurges out there - in addition to the Geomancer you mentioned, there are also the awful Fochlucan Lyrist and Mind Mage. Hathran is also very poorly done, alternating between barely playable and ridiculously broken with very little middle ground.

Cyrion
2010-05-27, 09:29 AM
I think refluffing or restructuring a prestige class or even a base class to better fit the particular campaign world can be a great idea. You get a class that you and your players enjoy more, and you get something that may fit your world better and can give it a unique flair. You do have to make sure it balances well enough to fit in with the rest of the party. I've retooled the favored soul and put together a prestige class for rogue/casters that emphasizes the rogue aspects over the caster. Neither one would probably find favor with many of the folks here for a variety of technical and preference reasons, but they work for the world they're meant for. I may scrap them in a different campaign.