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Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 11:51 AM
I need a good build that optimizes a Feral Primordial Half-Giant that uses No Psionics. I want to melee mostly with some non-melee tricks I can pull out in a pinch

Oslecamo
2010-05-27, 11:56 AM
Well if you're willing to use homebrew I sugest you look at this custom hill giant class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8476867&postcount=360). No psionics whatsoever, take as many levels as you feel like you needfor giantish abilities, then cover with fighter/barbarian/ToB.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 12:04 PM
Well if you're willing to use homebrew I sugest you look at this custom hill giant class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8476867&postcount=360). No psionics whatsoever, take as many levels as you feel like you needfor giantish abilities, then cover with fighter/barbarian/ToB.

no homebrew allowed

The Glyphstone
2010-05-27, 12:23 PM
Can you give us parameters? Level, Books and sources allowed. Big keys here are Tome of Battle and Magic of Incarnum, either or both will make a huge difference in "melee fighter who isn't useless at range".

Boci
2010-05-27, 12:54 PM
Duskblade? You get good damage in melee, spells to teleport short distances to get you into melee and you can always choose a couple of ray spells to be used at range.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 12:58 PM
All books, we start at 9th level, and NO PSI

The Glyphstone
2010-05-27, 01:04 PM
yes. You have said No Psionics. No one has suggested psionics.

Duskblade would be good for you if you weren't Feral, since Feral takes a big Int hit.

Totemist could be great. You'll have a high CON to support soulmelds, and the Pounce from Feral encourages lots of attacks - you already have two claws from the template, so you can bind other soulmelds for mass-attacking nastiness. Soulmelds like Dissolving Spittle can get you ranged attacks at-will for moderately respectable damage (on par with a Warlock).

Boci
2010-05-27, 01:07 PM
All books, we start at 9th level, and NO PSI

What's your total LA? 2 or 3? Warblade with a 2 level dip into bloodstorm blade could work. Be sure to use LA by off from UA.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:08 PM
yes. You have said No Psionics. No one has suggested psionics.

Duskblade would be good for you if you weren't Feral, since Feral takes a big Int hit.

Totemist could be great. You'll have a high CON to support soulmelds, and the Pounce from Feral encourages lots of attacks - you already have two claws from the template, so you can bind other soulmelds for mass-attacking nastiness. Soulmelds like Dissolving Spittle can get you ranged attacks at-will for moderately respectable damage (on par with a Warlock).

I forgot, No Incarnum either. DM doesn't understand it

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:10 PM
What's your total LA? 2 or 3? Warblade with a 2 level dip into bloodstorm blade could work. Be sure to use LA by off from UA.

My LA is 2, and no buyoff. DM thinks its BS

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 01:11 PM
Your stat mods are +2 Str/-4 Dex/+2 Con/+2 Wis/+4 Cha, right?

How about Binder? Or Crusader?

Boci
2010-05-27, 01:13 PM
Your stat mods are +2 Str/-4 Dex/+2 Con/+2 Wis/+4 Cha, right?

How about Binder? Or Crusader?

Doesn't feral get a penalty to charisma instead of inteligence?

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:13 PM
Your stat mods are +2 Str/-4 Dex/+2 Con/+2 Wis/+4 Cha, right?

How about Binder? Or Crusader?

might do a Clersader build using Dynamic Priest

Optimystik
2010-05-27, 01:16 PM
might do a Clersader build using Dynamic Priest

Dynamic Priest? Did you perhaps mean "DMM: Persist"?

When I think Dynamic Priest, I think Lathanderites...

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:18 PM
Dynamic Priest? Did you perhaps mean "DMM: Persist"?

When I think Dynamic Priest, I think Lathanderites...

No, dynamic priest (it makes your divine casting CHA-based)

jiriku
2010-05-27, 01:20 PM
This may not be high enough on the optimization-fu for you, but a barbarian/fist of the forest would be thematically appropriate, and if you take the Track feat and the Trap Smasher ACF from Dungeonscape, you can use Survival to track, find traps, and disarm (smash) mechanical traps.

Pick up the Skilled City-Dweller feat to drop Handle Animal and Ride in favor of Gather Information and Tumble, then pick up the Urban Tracking feat for use with Gather Information. Now you can find any man in a city or in the wild, pick up rumors, and even function as a trap-detector. All while still pwning face in combat and refusing to sleep indoors!

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 01:21 PM
might do a Clersader build using Dynamic Priest

I'm not to fond of clerics myself, especialy not with that many lost caster levels. Ruby Knight vindicator is a god option for you though.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:25 PM
I'm not to fond of clerics myself, especialy not with that many lost caster levels. Ruby Knight vindicator is a god option for you though.

I lose only 2. I can still get Epic Spellcasting.

and I plan on avoiding RKV because its overpowered

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 01:26 PM
I lose only 2. I can still get Epic Spellcasting.

and I plan on avoiding RKV because its overpowered

Actualy, it's only overpowered due to the -cleric- part of the build. :smalltongue:

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:27 PM
Actualy, it's only overpowered due to the -cleric- part of the build. :smalltongue:

RKV is overpowered, reguardless of whether or not cleric is involved

Optimystik
2010-05-27, 01:28 PM
No, dynamic priest (it makes your divine casting CHA-based)

*Googles*

Ah, it's Dragonlance. No wonder I never heard of it.
Hmm, my Favored Soul would like that one.

Boci
2010-05-27, 01:29 PM
RKV is overpowered, reguardless of whether or not cleric is involved

Its certianly more powerful than the other PrC of the book, but if you only take a single level of cleric its not going to be over powered, provided you don't abuse certain tricks.

Eldariel
2010-05-27, 01:29 PM
RKV is overpowered, reguardless of whether or not cleric is involved

Disagreed; Paladin/Crusader-base RKV with extra 1 Swift Action per turn is fine.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:30 PM
*Googles*

Ah, it's Dragonlance. No wonder I never heard of it.
Hmm, my Favored Soul would like that one.

as do clerics, paladins, and rangers.

the foil (for paly) is serenity

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 01:34 PM
RKV is overpowered, reguardless of whether or not cleric is involved

Well, if you feel that way. I still think it's because of the spellcasting though. But let's leave it at that and say we have a different opinion, much easier. :smallbiggrin:

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:36 PM
I want to use a BIG club and smashy smashy, but not be a BDB (Big Dumb Barbarian)

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 01:38 PM
I want to use a BIG club and smashy smashy, but not be a BDB (Big Dumb Barbarian)

Goliath Greathammer(Races of Stone), Maul(Complete Warrior), Warmace(Complete Warrior).

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:40 PM
Goliath Greathammer(Races of Stone), Maul(Complete Warrior), Warmace(Complete Warrior).

damages? I found a rework of the Greatclub, that at large is 2d8

sofawall
2010-05-27, 01:45 PM
damages? I found a rework of the Greatclub, that at large is 2d8

A rework? The one in the Player's Handbook is 2d8 at large. I believe at least 2 of those mentioned above are 2d6, or 3d6 at large.

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 01:46 PM
damages? I found a rework of the Greatclub, that at large is 2d8

Maul 1d10, Greathammer 1d12, Warmace 1d12. They're all exotic weapons, and the maul and warmace both function like bastard swords(2h, 1h thing) So can be taken advantage of with Exotic Weapons Master. I've given the damage for medium size weapons.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 01:48 PM
I'll probably do the Warmace, considering spiky things make me smile...

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 02:03 PM
So, would a Barbarian/Sohei be optimal in this case?

Also Taking 2 traits (DM hands these out for free!) called Emotionless and Quiet Anger, which adds a +2 to Intimidate, +4 Bluff, -8 to diplomacy, +4 vs Emotion-affecting effects, and a -4 to Fortitude saves

Boci
2010-05-27, 02:04 PM
So, would a Barbarian/Sohei be optimal in this case?

Sohei is generally considered to be dreadful.



Also Taking 2 traits (DM hands these out for free!) called Emotionless and Quiet Anger, which adds a +2 to Intimidate, +4 Bluff, -8 to diplomacy, +4 vs Emotion-affecting effects, and a -4 to Fortitude saves

First trait looks like a no brainer, but I'm not too sure aboit the second one. Do you mean mind affecting?

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 02:06 PM
Sohei is generally considered to be dreadful.

why? It's Lawful Barbarian with some divine spells

and yes. I meant mind-affecting

Boci
2010-05-27, 02:07 PM
why? It's Lawful Barbarian with some divine spells

Its a mix match of abilities with no real synergy between them and no wide support feat wise.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 02:09 PM
Its a mix match of abilities with no real synergy between them and no wide support feat wise.

Sohei qualifies for all Rage Feats (Ki Frenzy), DMMs, and other nice feats

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 02:11 PM
Aren't both feral and Half giant also considered overpowered?

and you're ignoring RKV because it's overpowered but trying to get epic spellcasting?

ooookay.

Boci
2010-05-27, 02:12 PM
Sohei qualifies for all Rage Feats (Ki Frenzy), DMMs, and other nice feats

I don't have my books at hand but I thought ki frenzy didn't allow you to qualify for rage feats and I do not recall them getting turn undead.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 02:13 PM
I don't have my books at hand but I thought ki frenzy didn't allow you to qualify for rage feats and I do not recall them getting turn undead.

It acts identically to rage, thus is rage. and no Turn Undead, but an easy fix

Boci
2010-05-27, 02:15 PM
It acts identically to rage, thus is rage.

I'm not too sure on that.


and no Turn Undead, but an easy fix

That being?

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 02:17 PM
I'm not too sure on that.
That falls under DM scrutiny (all of mine said that it counts)



That being?

Sacred Exorcist

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 02:19 PM
Okay, I still need an answer.

Why are you using a template and race (Both of which are considered overpowered) and trying to get epic spellcasting (One of the most ovepowered things in the game) But neglecting classes because you think they're too overpowered?

Boci
2010-05-27, 02:21 PM
That falls under DM scrutiny (all of mine said that it counts)

I'm pretty sure thats a houserule, but a good one.


Sacred Exorcist

Doesn't say anything about the Sohei. May as well go cleric / barbarian.

Machiavellian
2010-05-27, 02:21 PM
Okay, I still need an answer.

Why are you using a template and race (Both of which are considered overpowered) and trying to get epic spellcasting (One of the most ovepowered things in the game) But neglecting classes because you think they're too overpowered?

Because of Flavor more than anything. Why in Vecna's name would a Feral Primordial Half-Giant worship Wee Jas?!

That, and I'm shying away from spellcasting (the party has 2 wizards and a cleric of Pelor)

The Rabbler
2010-05-27, 02:26 PM
Because of Flavor more than anything. Why in Vecna's name would a Feral Primordial Half-Giant worship Wee Jas?!

That, and I'm shying away from spellcasting (the party has 2 wizards and a cleric of Pelor)

I'm AFB, so I might be wrong, but isn't Wee Jas a god of death? and isn't Vecna a god of death by magic? Which one seems more likely for a giant?

and also: you want epic spellcasting, but you're shying away from casting in general because your party already has three other casters. you might want to think that through a bit.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 02:28 PM
Because of Flavor more than anything.


Then you should probably mention it's for flavor instead of saying "It's overpowered. Also, I only lose two spellcasting levels so I still qualify for One of the most broken things ever!"

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 02:31 PM
Because of Flavor more than anything. Why in Vecna's name would a Feral Primordial Half-Giant worship Wee Jas?!

That, and I'm shying away from spellcasting (the party has 2 wizards and a cleric of Pelor)

Seeing as your party allready has 3 casters... It would be wise for you to consider taking one as well, to stay on par with them. That's the other side of the coin. :smallbiggrin:

lsfreak
2010-05-27, 02:31 PM
Because of Flavor more than anything. Why in Vecna's name would a Feral Primordial Half-Giant worship Wee Jas?!

That, and I'm shying away from spellcasting (the party has 2 wizards and a cleric of Pelor)

There's nothing in RKV mechanics-wise to suggest that it's Wee Jas only. Fluff is mutable, and refluffing is one of the most important things (imo) that anyone who plays D&D should learn how to do.

Optimystik
2010-05-27, 02:43 PM
Because of Flavor more than anything. Why in Vecna's name would a Feral Primordial Half-Giant worship Wee Jas?!

The adaptation lets you worship any god at all. (pg. 125)

sofawall
2010-05-27, 02:48 PM
I'm pretty sure thats a houserule, but a good one.

I am sure that's a houserule.

Also, I agree with Kyuubi (among others). You don't want to be a caster, but your reasoning for taking a class is because it has spells, and you want to get epic spellcasting.

So you don't want to be a caster, but make all decisions based off the fact that you want to be a caster? :smallconfused:

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 02:53 PM
Could we start over again and think of what you, as the player, want for flavor? Then we'll think of ways to optimize your character while keeping your flavor. Bit easier, and more along the lines of what you want, I think. :smallbiggrin:

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 03:02 PM
I am sure that's a houserule.

Also, I agree with Kyuubi (among others). You don't want to be a caster, but your reasoning for taking a class is because it has spells, and you want to get epic spellcasting.

So you don't want to be a caster, but make all decisions based off the fact that you want to be a caster? :smallconfused:

My point was more along the lines of "Why are you refusing things based on them being overpowered when you're trying to get one of the most overpowered things in the game?"


Could we start over again and think of what you, as the player, want for flavor? Then we'll think of ways to optimize your character while keeping your flavor. Bit easier, and more along the lines of what you want, I think. :smallbiggrin:

This is a good idea. I give it the unofficial Kyuubi seal of approval.

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 03:07 PM
My point was more along the lines of "Why are you refusing things based on them being overpowered when you're trying to get one of the most overpowered things in the game?"

Good point, though I assume it's because he didn't want to overdo it. Though it might very well be because he doesn't think what he's trying to get is OP at all.

[QUOTE=Kyuubi;8576134
This is a good idea. I give it the unofficial Kyuubi seal of approval.[/QUOTE]

Hurray!

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 03:12 PM
Well, in another thread it looks like his combo of feral and half giant don't work.

You could use half Minotaur instead.

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 03:16 PM
Well, in another thread it looks like his combo of feral and half giant don't work.

You could use half Minotaur instead.

Obviously, I was the one who pointed that out. :smallbiggrin:

No, don't, just let him do it without Feral! :smalleek:

sofawall
2010-05-27, 03:18 PM
12 str, 4 con, -2 dex, 2 ac and reach is a bit much for an LA+1 template, doncha think?

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 03:24 PM
12 str, 4 con, -2 dex, 2 ac and reach is a bit much for an LA+1 template, doncha think?

Yeah. but the LA+1 template that gives you +12 strength, +6 Con, -2 Dex, +2 wisdom, Large size, +10 move speed, darkvision, +2 natural armor, and scent is worse.:smalltongue:

Yeah, Half minotaur does all that.

sofawall
2010-05-27, 03:28 PM
Bah, all I remembered was the stupid 'All bonuses of large size' bit.

Ferrin
2010-05-27, 03:32 PM
Bah, all I remembered was the stupid 'All bonuses of large size' bit.

Some things are best left forgotten...

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-27, 04:45 PM
I'm AFB, so I might be wrong, but isn't Wee Jas a god of death? and isn't Vecna a god of death by magic? Which one seems more likely for a giant?

Wee Jas is the Goddess of Death & Magic. Vecna is the God of Secrets (and Magic [and not Death at all, but he is a Lich]).

sofawall
2010-05-27, 06:07 PM
Yeah. but the LA+1 template that gives you +12 strength, +6 Con, -2 Dex, +2 wisdom, Large size, +10 move speed, darkvision, +2 natural armor, and scent is worse.:smalltongue:

Yeah, Half minotaur does all that.

I just noticed.

That thing gives Wisdom? Wow. Lost caster level, but may be worth it for some flavors of Cleric.

Mystic Muse
2010-05-27, 06:12 PM
I just noticed.

That thing gives Wisdom? Wow. Lost caster level, but may be worth it for some flavors of Cleric.

And works extremely well for Barbarian.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-28, 12:12 AM
How much cheese do you want? Because I could get you the joy that is Primodial for no LA on a pretty badass chassis. My example was for casting joy, but, eh.

Here's the link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147166) Yeah, it's a shameless self bump, but I'll be damned if I don't love the idea.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 08:08 AM
Okay, actual goal:

Considering as how the DM is letting me have Feral because of him being part human, I want to use my ancient powers (ie: primordial) to my advantage while not being a one-trick pony (ie: a caster). We recently lost a wizard, who took up Cleric.
Also, only homebrew from D&D Wiki is allowed, so if you must homebrew, thats the source that must be used.
Considering my unique genesis (being a Primordial Half-Giant raised in the wilderness of Xen'Drik by [insert animal X]), I want to take advantage of my size and my strength.

We use all 18's for stats, in case you're wondering

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 11:16 AM
anybody got a suggestion? I mean, the campaign isn't for another week and all, just kinda anxious is all

Mystic Muse
2010-05-28, 11:37 AM
Uh, casters are anything but one trick ponies unless you build them that way. And D&D wiki has some of the worst balanced homebrew out there.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 11:39 AM
Uh, casters are anything but one trick ponies unless you build them that way. And D&D wiki has some of the worst balanced homebrew out there.

I just mean that casters cast spells, and thats it. they don't occasionally jump into the fray or launch a volley of arrows. They are squishables (similar to bunnies and squarrels for a car)

Mystic Muse
2010-05-28, 11:41 AM
I just mean that casters cast spells, and thats it. they don't occasionally jump into the fray or launch a volley of arrows. They are squishables (similar to bunnies and squarrels for a car)

And fighter types hit things and that's it. And before you claim "You can do a lot of different things with that" you can do the exact same thing with spells. Plus, if you get hit with a Spellcaster you're doing it wrong.

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 11:42 AM
Binder isn't a one trick pony, not a caster, works well with your stats, and the flavor could be something along the lines of; "You found markings in an ancient ruin and learned binding there." You could roleplay the vestiges as a voice of reason for your character too, if you want. :smallbiggrin:

I like binders.

I'd suggest a totemist, but since your DM doesn't know how to fill cups of water I guess that's a no.(Hint: Essentia is like water, soulmelds are your cups)

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 11:44 AM
Binder isn't a one trick pony, not a caster, works well with your stats, and the flavor could be something along the lines of; "You found markings in an ancient ruin and learned binding there." You could roleplay the vestiges as a voice of reason for your character too, if you want. :smallbiggrin:

I like binders.

I'd suggest a totemist, but since your DM doesn't know how to fill cups of water I guess that's a no.(Hint: Essentia is like water, soulmelds are your cups)

Binder sounds cool, but considering that I've got the Animal type (raised by foxes) and have a Claymore (martial weapon baby!), how can I work that?

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 11:46 AM
Binder sounds cool, but considering that I've got the Animal type (raised by foxes) and have a Claymore (martial weapon baby!), how can I work that?

Binding is easy, you just happened to like the look of the drawings and duplicated them. :smallbiggrin:

A one level dip in barbarian? Martial Weapon Proficiency: Claymore?

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 11:49 AM
Binding is easy, you just happened to like the look of the drawings and duplicated them. :smallbiggrin:

A one level dip in barbarian? Martial Weapon Proficiency: Claymore?

the Whirling Frenzy Barb dip seems appropriate, if anything at 1st level.

and for those not in the know, Claymore (at my size) does = damage to a Greataxe with an 18-20 x3 crit

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 11:51 AM
the Whirling Frenzy Barb dip seems appropriate, if anything at 1st level.

and for those not in the know, Claymore (at my size) does = damage to a Greataxe with an 18-20 x3 crit

So you have your character set? Feral primordial Half-Giant Barb1/BinderX? :smallamused:

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 11:55 AM
So you have your character set? Feral primordial Half-Giant Barb1/BinderX? :smallamused:

Want to PrC coming up, but dunno what. I mean, a Barbinder seems to have few options

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 11:58 AM
Want to PrC coming up, but dunno what. I mean, a Barbinder seems to have few options

Why do you want to PRC when the Binder gives you enough cool abilities? :smallconfused:

PrCing isn't necesary, it's just that for a lot of classes it gives an added benefit. Well, whatever, just take the Knight of the Sacred Seal. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-28, 11:58 AM
Why do you want to PRC when the Binder gives you enough cool abilities? :smallconfused:

PrCing isn't necesary, it's just that for a lot of classes it gives an added benefit. Well, whatever, just take the Knight of the Sacred Seal. :smallbiggrin:

Agreed, Binder is probably one of half a dozen or less base classes that can be solid all the way to 20.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 12:00 PM
so in actuallity, a:

Feral Primordial Half-Giant Whirling Frenzy 1/Binder 19

would be a great combo for a party of primarilly beatsticks with 2-3 casters?

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 12:04 PM
so in actuallity, a:

Feral Primordial Half-Giant Whirling Frenzy 1/Binder 19

would be a great combo for a party of primarilly beatsticks with 2-3 casters?

Well, Binder15/KotSS5 would be better, seeing as it grants some additional abilities, bab, and Martial weapon proficiency. At what level are you starting?

Also, the barbarian dip was mostly because you wanted martial weapon proficiency and it gives some benefits if you're mainly in melee.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 12:49 PM
Well, Binder15/KotSS5 would be better, seeing as it grants some additional abilities, bab, and Martial weapon proficiency. At what level are you starting?

Also, the barbarian dip was mostly because you wanted martial weapon proficiency and it gives some benefits if you're mainly in melee.

9th level, and with any books allowed. Just no Psionics or Incarnum

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 12:51 PM
9th level, and with any books allowed. Just no Psionics or Incarnum

Then Binder6/KotSS3 is the way to go.

Or Binder6/KotSS1, not sure if you included the LA or not. :smallbiggrin:

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 12:53 PM
Then Binder6/KotSS3 is the way to go.

Or Binder6/KotSS1, not sure if you included the LA or not. :smallbiggrin:

No Buyoff allowed

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 12:58 PM
No Buyoff allowed

I meant that if you included the LA, you'd start at ECL 11.

But allright, Binder6/KotSS1. Gets you martial weapon proficiency, so it's all good.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:03 PM
I meant that if you included the LA, you'd start at ECL 11.

But allright, Binder6/KotSS1. Gets you martial weapon proficiency, so it's all good.

Ok. I don't 100% understand Binding

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 01:05 PM
Ok. I don't 100% understand Binding

Start by reading the entry of Binders. Do you understand spellcasting? Binding is easier.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:09 PM
Start by reading the entry of Binders. Do you understand spellcasting? Binding is easier.

The spellcaster system is a cluster. If binding is easier, than all be damned

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 01:17 PM
The spellcaster system is a cluster. If binding is easier, than all be damned

Look at binding like this:

You're like a cleric who prepares spells and know every spell on your class list, but can only prepare one spell of any level you can cast. At 8th, 14th, and 20th level you gain an additional 'slot'. Instead of casting them, however, you allways gain its benefits.

To succesfully 'prepare a spell' you have to make a binder check vs the DC of the 'spell'(Binder level + Cha modifier). If you fail, you gain an additional effect outlined in the 'spell' entry.

Replace words as necesary and you're a binder.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:21 PM
Look at binding like this:

You're like a cleric who prepares spells and know every spell on your class list, but can only prepare one spell of any level you can cast. At 8th, 14th, and 20th level you gain an additional 'slot'. Instead of casting them, however, you allways gain its benefits.

To succesfully 'prepare a spell' you have to make a binder check vs the DC of the 'spell'(Binder level + Cha modifier). If you fail, you gain an additional effect outlined in the 'spell' entry.

Replace words as necesary and you're a binder.

ok....so I basically am a pseudocaster?

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 01:22 PM
ok....so I basically am a pseudocaster?

Well, flavorwise, yes. Except you can't really cast spells. Did you even read the binder in Tome of Magic?

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:33 PM
Well, flavorwise, yes. Except you can't really cast spells. Did you even read the binder in Tome of Magic?

Not yet. Plan to (eventually)

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 01:35 PM
Not yet. Plan to (eventually)

Please do before asking questions. Also; it's one of the most flavorful classes.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:39 PM
Please do before asking questions. Also; it's one of the most flavorful classes.

Ok. at a glance, it seems simple enough, minus Vestiges. I mean, what EXACTLY are/were/will they (be).

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 01:41 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0

Bit messy but it will explain it, mostly.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:44 PM
ok....................Still lost

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 01:49 PM
ok....................Still lost

What exactly do you want me to tell you? Do you want me to post the entire binder table with abilities and all? All the vestiges? A level by level, round by round, guide?

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:50 PM
What exactly do you want me to tell you? Do you want me to post the entire binder table with abilities and all? All the vestiges? A level by level, round by round, guide?

no. I just want to understand thematically, not mechanically, what a binder does and what in Vecna's name a Vestige is

Mystic Muse
2010-05-28, 01:51 PM
no. I just want to understand thematically, not mechanically, what a binder does and what in Vecna's name a Vestige is

Have you read about the class in Tome of magic?

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:52 PM
Have you read about the class in Tome of magic?

Not yet, but plan to tonight. I read the mechanics, not thematics

Mystic Muse
2010-05-28, 01:53 PM
Not yet, but plan to tonight. I read the mechanics, not thematics

Read the book, then ask questions.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 01:55 PM
Read the book, then ask questions.

I understand that, I just don't understand the reading...Sorry I'm an idiot

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 02:01 PM
no. I just want to understand thematically, not mechanically, what a binder does and what in Vecna's name a Vestige is

Ah allright, I can do that.

A binder summons vestiges and binds them to his own body. A vestige a soul not living nor dead which exists outside of any known plane, vestiges are cast-outs of reality, so to speak. When a binder contacts such a vestige using a short ritual using a seal he bargains with it for power, in return the vestige gets to experience reality with the binder as a host.

When you make a bad pact with a vestige(meaning you failed to convince the vestige to have it go on your terms with a binding check) your actions are influenced by it, you take a penalty if you don't do what the vestige wants.(some mild penalties, but only if you fail your binding check). The binder, when he has a vestige bound, shows signs depending which vestige(s) he has bound, this can be as simple as hooves, horns, reversed hands, or even a wind that only seems to have any effect on you.

Abilities of vestiges can go from summoning stone walls, armor, or weapons to turning to smoke or breathing whirlwinds.

The binder is flavorful, fairly powerful, and just genrally awesome.

sofawall
2010-05-28, 02:03 PM
So you're being allowed stuff from D&Dwiki? So all we need to do is take, say, Warmarked, lob it up on D&Dwiki, and laugh horribly?

Also, where is that Claymore from? Please don't say D&Dwiki. I only ask because (if it is a martial weapon) it is better in every single way then a greatsword.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 02:06 PM
Ah allright, I can do that.

A binder summons vestiges and binds them to his own body. A vestige a soul not living nor dead which exists outside of any known plane, vestiges are cast-outs of reality, so to speak. When a binder contacts such a vestige using a short ritual using a seal he bargains with it for power, in return the vestige gets to experience reality with the binder as a host.

When you make a bad pact with a vestige(meaning you failed to convince the vestige to have it go on your terms with a binding check) your actions are influenced by it, you take a penalty if you don't do what the vestige wants.(some mild penalties, but only if you fail your binding check). The binder, when he has a vestige bound, shows signs depending which vestige(s) he has bound, this can be as simple as hooves, horns, reversed hands, or even a wind that only seems to have any effect on you.

Abilities of vestiges can go from summoning stone walls, armor, or weapons to turning to smoke or breathing whirlwinds.

The binder is flavorful, fairly powerful, and just genrally awesome.

so a vestige sort of exists, like in an Alternate Dimension?

and the Binder basically lets the Vestige possess them to do his bidding?

And the powers vary (as I realise)

one vestige I looked at, Ashardalon, looks powerful. Is he?

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 02:10 PM
So you're being allowed stuff from D&Dwiki? So all we need to do is take, say, Warmarked, lob it up on D&Dwiki, and laugh horribly?

Also, where is that Claymore from? Please don't say D&Dwiki. I only ask because (if it is a martial weapon) it is better in every single way then a greatsword.

Arms and Armor. Not to be confused with Arms and Equipment Guide

sofawall
2010-05-28, 02:16 PM
Arms and Armor.

This being, what Green Ronin? Necromancer Games? It sure isn't a WotC publication.

Machiavellian
2010-05-28, 02:17 PM
This being, what Green Ronin? Necromancer Games? It sure isn't a WotC publication.

I can't remember for the life of me. AFB

Ferrin
2010-05-28, 02:24 PM
so a vestige sort of exists, like in an Alternate Dimension?

and the Binder basically lets the Vestige possess them to do his bidding?

And the powers vary (as I realise)

one vestige I looked at, Ashardalon, looks powerful. Is he?

Not possess, more like share a body, but not the mind. And yes, Alternate dimension works, I guess.

Ashardalon is a dragon, and has some sweet abilities, including a fear breath weapon, fire resistance, and damage reduction. Oh, and you can be pretty good at finding and appraising items.

Shadowleaf
2010-05-28, 08:18 PM
Not possess, more like share a body, but not the mind. And yes, Alternate dimension works, I guess.

Make your Binding check, and they don't influence you. They're just "along for the ride". It's their way of feeling alive again.

Fail your Binding check, and they'll influence you in certain ways. Makes you like something more, and dislike something (Goblins, for example). If you don't do what they want you to do, you'll get penalties until you do - or just Expel them.