Combat Skills System (Help)

[Ralasha]

I've been thinking about creating one for a while now. A better way to keep combat from going from 'damnit, i can't hit it!' to 'damnit, why won't you miss?'
Defensive, Weapon, Armor, and Attack based skills. Looking for Creative input.
These skills should come from a separate skill point pool, than the standard skill pool.

[Temotei]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137268) is worth looking at. Combat skills are fairly simple in that system. Take something from that, perhaps, then tweak it to your liking.

[Ralasha]

That might actually have helped, if it had more detail into the system, but it doesn't. the skills descriptions are vague at best, and give no standing or ruling on how they work, or their mechanics.

I think I may have to start the system from scratch, an earlier attempt I made was... not unbalanced, so much as... broken. I will have to start again, apparently, without help, because others don't care to waste time on it.

[Temotei]

That might actually have helped, if it had more detail into the system, but it doesn't. the skills descriptions are vague at best, and give no standing or ruling on how they work, or their mechanics.

I think I may have to start the system from scratch, an earlier attempt I made was... not unbalanced, so much as... broken. I will have to start again, apparently, without help, because others don't care to waste time on it.

I believe the consensus was that the weapon skills raise your attack modifier by one for every skill point in that weapon skill.

I'm pretty sure something similar went for armor, but I'm not sure if it was exactly the same.

That system is pretty rough, but the mechanics are fairly solid on many points. It's still in a very "beta" stage, as I understand.

[Ralasha]

One could use it, with a lot of... heavy modifications it could make weapon focus, and weapon specialization obsolete. But the balancing issues for combat skills being a separate skill set would be daunting. You could base it on BAB I suppose, however, how many points per point of BAB, and do you leave BAB as is and make weapons skills modifications to attacks and damage, or make those the attack bonus, and fractionally a damage bonus. -.- this is why i am asking for help. I could use the Weapon Group Proficiencies as the base skills, making ti so that when you have the weapon group proficiency that weapon skill counts as a class skill. Then make it so non-proficiencies count as CC. That would keep people from sucking incredibly, or I could make it so that related skills are capable of aiding, giving synergy bonuses, i.e. A double bladed sword is still a sword, so the swords skill gives a synergy bonus. on the other hand, I never liked how the synergy bonuses were a one time shot. I think it should be every 5 ranks, rather than just once at 5 ranks.

[Temotei]

One could use it, with a lot of... heavy modifications it could make weapon focus, and weapon specialization obsolete. But the balancing issues for combat skills being a separate skill set would be daunting. You could base it on BAB I suppose, however, how many points per point of BAB, and do you leave BAB as is and make weapons skills modifications to attacks and damage, or make those the attack bonus, and fractionally a damage bonus. -.- this is why i am asking for help. I could use the Weapon Group Proficiencies as the base skills, making ti so that when you have the weapon group proficiency that weapon skill counts as a class skill. Then make it so non-proficiencies count as CC. That would keep people from sucking incredibly, or I could make it so that related skills are capable of aiding, giving synergy bonuses, i.e. A double bladed sword is still a sword, so the swords skill gives a synergy bonus. on the other hand, I never liked how the synergy bonuses were a one time shot. I think it should be every 5 ranks, rather than just once at 5 ranks.

Every skill rank in a weapon group/weapon could give a +1 damage bonus. In fact, I'd allow all bonuses to the skill to factor in as well. Make a few items boosting those skills (maybe one that gives you proficiency and Weapon Focus along with a bonus) and you'll be all good. Then again, +1 damage isn't very fun...and it becomes very devastating at early levels.

[Ralasha]

Exactly, which is why I would set it up for... every 4 ranks giving 1 extra damage. Then you would need attack skills, such as sunder, and charge, etc. as obviously, someone can be mroe skilled at destroying items than others, and just because someone is stronger does not necessarily mean s/he is better at it.

[Temotei]

Exactly, which is why I would set it up for... every 4 ranks giving 1 extra damage. Then you would need attack skills, such as sunder, and charge, etc. as obviously, someone can be mroe skilled at destroying items than others, and just because someone is stronger does not necessarily mean s/he is better at it.

Every 4 ranks is a little bit stringent, perhaps. If you're really worried, make it every 2 or 3 ranks. At 1st level, that's +2 damage if you put max ranks in it if you have every 2 ranks. If it's every 3 ranks, you'll have to wait until 3rd level for that tiny, little bonus.

[Ralasha]

Hmmm. every 2 would allow you the equivilent of Wep Spec long befoe you should qualify for anything like that. 4 makes it somewhat balanced in such areas.

[Temotei]

Hmmm. every 2 would allow you the equivilent of Wep Spec long befoe you should qualify for anything like that. 4 makes it somewhat balanced in such areas.

Weapon Specialization kind of really sucks though. Still, it's your system.

Still, others will say the same. Getting Weapon Specialization early is hardly game-breaking. In fact, I'd say it's fairer to the fighter to allow it at 1st level.

Note that Weapon Focus is weak as well.

[Ralasha]

Such things have in fact make/break combats for me. So forgive me.
I suppose 2 will work for damage effects. This does however, put an old bag of snakes in the fire, while opening another.

[Temotei]

Such things have in fact make/break combats for me. So forgive me.
I suppose 2 will work for damage effects. This does however, put an old bag of snakes in the fire, while opening another.

Making it ranks restricts the skill sufficiently for those worried. At 3rd level, you'll have 6 ranks (maximum), giving +3 damage. At higher levels, the damage bonus is pretty small, but sometimes you'll get it on multiple attacks, making up for it slightly.

Still, 2 ranks/+1 damage should work well.

At 19th level, that's 22 ranks, or +11 damage. If you get extremely lucky, you'll get +44 damage total if all four attacks hit. Not a problem at all. Not like Power Attack. :smalltongue:

[arguskos]

At 19th level, that's 22 ranks, or +11 damage. If you get extremely lucky, you'll get +44 damage total if all four attacks hit. Not a problem at all. Not like Power Attack. :smalltongue:
To expound on this, at level 10, if you are Power Attacking for 6 with a two-hander (totally reasonable, and in fact probably really light given how easy to boost attack bonuses can be), you're looking at +12 damage straight up for almost no investment (1 feat, a piddling attack penalty). Compared to Temotei's proposal of +11 damage at level 19 for 22 skill ranks (which classes that do this will be short on, having 2+Int mod ranks and whatnot), this is comically low. I think it'd be safe to do 2 ranks=1 damage.

[Kyuu Himura]

BESM d20 had a combat skill system, I kinda like it.
The skills are: Melee Attack (hit things with swords and the like), melee defense (blocking with weapons or shields), unarmed attacks (duh!!), unarmed defense, archery (bows and crossbows), thrown weapons, special ranged attack (ranged touch attacks), ranged defense (get the hell out of that disintegrate's way) and heavy weapons (siege engines and the like).
Different classes get different combat class skills, and to fix the problem of insanely high AC, armor and shields don't give AC (although you may want to change that for shields).
One skill rank in a combat skill costs 3 times what a normal skill rank does (so 3 for class, 6 for cross-class)
hope it helps...

[Ralasha]

I'm not talking about combat skills coming out of normal skill points, but a separate pool.

[Temotei]

I'm not talking about combat skills coming out of normal skill points, but a separate pool.

Oh. You should probably name it something else then, so no one is confused.

[Ralasha]

solved the interpretation problem in the original post.

[Temotei]

solved the interpretation problem in the original post.

Coolness.

Using a different skill pool will require skill point amounts for all classes.

The full BAB classes should get the most, obviously, followed by the medium BAB, followed by the low BAB classes.

Perhaps work backwards from the skill points system, giving full BAB classes 6, medium BAB classes 4, and low BAB classes 2 points per level. Modify with Intelligence or not at all, depending on what you want.

[Corporate M]

It might help the fighter and some other classes to have a higher "combat skill" pool compared to other skills... It would also leave more room for versatility in weapons and other combat equipment. I would breakdown the combat skills into thusly...


Simple Weapons (unarmed is considered simple)
Martial Weapons
Exotic Weapons
Touch Spells
Armor Class (Roll AC check vs Attack check)

So now weapons and armor can work a little differently...

Greatsword
Atk Bonus: +3 (You'll need it if AC can go up like a skill)
Damage: 2d6
Critical: 19-20 (on the natural dice)
Multiplyer: x2
Confirmation Bonus: +3 (Remember, confirmations are needed in 3.5 to activate multiplyer and are vs AC)

Obviously strength or dexterity based depending on the attack. AC is dexterity based.


This is a houserule I could definitelly get used too. Albeit I don't think it'll help the lower tier classes all that much. Consider this...

Maxed out Fighter:
1d20+4 (combat skill)+1 (BaB)

Sorcerers can still cast true strike, for the expenditure of one turn get +20atk roll for next attack. This is more valuable now then ever when ACs are going to be higher on average.

Clerics have divine favor and other self buffs, which aren't as good as it used to be, so cleric gets cutdown to size to a tier-4 class.

Blaster mages (warmage, specialy built sorcerer) will still be one trick ponies. Maybe hitting more often now and dealing lots of damage, but they better pray the enemy doesn't have resistance or immunity.

Tome of Battle classes would feel awckward if they didn't have combat skillpoints like the fighter. So they're going to get the biggest boost and be completely unstoppable in combat.



It changes the tier paradime. But that's not nesscaraly a good thing. Even sophisticated weapons where you get your trip attacks and cleave attempts pale in comparison to area effecting spells like fireball. Just plain old fireball will be damaging foes the size of a football field. So even though it's perhaps better for martial classes, it still fails to address the fact spells>swords. No matter how big your sword might be...


But I'd still implement it despite it's very detailed flaws... cause it puts in my head clerics and druids with their paints down, singing and dancing to old gray mare like that simpsons episode.