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Shinizak
2010-05-29, 12:13 PM
Imagine there is a Barbarian orc and a halfling rogue. The orc first picks up the rogue and closes his eyes (rendering him effectively blind). The barbarian then throws the halfling at the earth (making a ranged thrown attack roll), but since he has blinded himself he has a 50/50 chance to actually hit the ground. the barbarian rolls his percentile but only gets a 23 (needing a 51 or better to succeed), the halfling is now stuck in Geosynchronous orbit (since the orc failed his attack roll, the halfling can't hit the earth.)

:smallbiggrin:

anyone got anything else?

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 12:18 PM
Aside from healing by drowning? No, not really.

Magic Myrmidon
2010-05-29, 12:19 PM
Ah, yes, throwing yourself at the ground and missing. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy gave this idea to you, yes?

As for other logic fallacies... Uhm. Grappling a giant ooze?

Sliver
2010-05-29, 12:25 PM
Doesn't really work, even by the rules. You only miss the square you are aiming at, doesn't negate everything else. The rogue will probably land at some square around that point, determined by a d8 roll.

Prodan
2010-05-29, 12:29 PM
Or his range increment.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 06:43 PM
a rugby scrum, if sufficiently large, outpaces airplanes

Jack_Simth
2010-05-29, 06:49 PM
a rugby scrum, if sufficiently large, outpaces airplanes
And takes up one five-foot square, even if it has a million people involved.

Then there's the pesky "Death has no penalties" bit.

Fortuna
2010-05-29, 06:54 PM
a rugby scrum, if sufficiently large, outpaces airplanes

Wait, what?

Prodan: Are you suggesting that the barbarian fly way up in the air and then throw the rogue at the ground?

Jack_Simth
2010-05-29, 06:59 PM
Wait, what?

Prodan: Are you suggesting that the barbarian fly way up in the air and then throw the rogue at the ground?

Moving a Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#move)
Move

You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.

So if you have ten people grappling, each one can take a standard action to move the grapple by half their move (assuming all the others involved voluntarily fail the grapple check...), so ten people with a move of 30 can go 150 feet in one round. 1,000 people with a move of 30 can go 15,000 feet. In one round.

Ernir
2010-05-29, 07:01 PM
Then there's the pesky "Death has no penalties" bit.

Well, being Dead does make you unable to receive magical healing, which is rather inconvenient.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-29, 07:05 PM
Well, being Dead does make you unable to receive magical healing, which is rather inconvenient.Ah, right. It'll cause problems when you get stat-drained. Otherwise? Meh.

Togo
2010-05-30, 05:47 AM
Troll-based instantaneous cross-continent communication

The largest piece of a troll regenerates. Split a troll into a 3/4 piece and a quarter piece, and prune the larger piece on a regular basis. Send the smaller quarter to another continent. Whenever you want to send your signal, carve up your 3/4 piece into sections smaller than the quarter piece, and far away on another continent, the troll starts growing.

Ferrin
2010-05-30, 06:02 AM
Troll-based instantaneous cross-continent communication

The largest piece of a troll regenerates. Split a troll into a 3/4 piece and a quarter piece, and prune the larger piece on a regular basis. Send the smaller quarter to another continent. Whenever you want to send your signal, carve up your 3/4 piece into sections smaller than the quarter piece, and far away on another continent, the troll starts growing.

I want to play a troll now. :smalleek: No, I'm not a masochist.

Enguhl
2010-05-30, 07:37 AM
Aside from healing by drowning? No, not really.

That doesn't work specifically because the rules say it brings you 'down' to zero HP.

Godskook
2010-05-30, 07:47 AM
Troll-based instantaneous cross-continent communication

The largest piece of a troll regenerates. Split a troll into a 3/4 piece and a quarter piece, and prune the larger piece on a regular basis. Send the smaller quarter to another continent. Whenever you want to send your signal, carve up your 3/4 piece into sections smaller than the quarter piece, and far away on another continent, the troll starts growing.

The living lich idea.

Love it.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 08:23 AM
Moving a Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#move)

So if you have ten people grappling, each one can take a standard action to move the grapple by half their move (assuming all the others involved voluntarily fail the grapple check...), so ten people with a move of 30 can go 150 feet in one round. 1,000 people with a move of 30 can go 15,000 feet. In one round.

How are you getting 1000 people into a grapple? There's a maximum limit on how many people can fit into one square, and it's something like 4 or 8, isn't it?

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 08:51 AM
Killing the crew of a star destroyer with Ford Pintos. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120391&page=1)

84 seconds of jump hangtime (potentially infinite) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6684658)

Eldan
2010-05-30, 08:58 AM
Hmm. True on the Troll lich part. A troll PC just has to hide piece of himself in a small place, then set the rest of him up to be disintegrated after death.

Ferrin
2010-05-30, 09:05 AM
Hmm. True on the Troll lich part. A troll PC just has to hide piece of himself in a small place, then set the rest of him up to be disintegrated after death.

Would gaining an elemental subtype + Final Strike feat(Savage Species) work? :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2010-05-30, 09:21 AM
You have to be sure that it's something which doesn't destroy your entire body, only the part present.

AslanCross
2010-05-30, 09:44 AM
...I shouldn't have read this thread before going to sleep. :smalleek: Thanks a lot, guys.

EDIT: There's the Bag of Rats trick. Dump a bag of rats on the ground. Yell as a free action to send them scurrying.

As they scurry away, at least one provokes an AOO. Assuming you hit and kill it instantly and you have Cleave and Great Cleave, you can essentially omnislash your opponent.

Jack_Simth
2010-05-30, 09:54 AM
How are you getting 1000 people into a grapple? There's a maximum limit on how many people can fit into one square, and it's something like 4 or 8, isn't it?
There's no limit to the number of people that can be involved in a grapple. If you care to disprove, please find a page reference.

Escheton
2010-05-30, 10:32 AM
The trolltrick...would that work on a trollblooded human with regen 1?

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 11:01 AM
There's no limit to the number of people that can be involved in a grapple. If you care to disprove, please find a page reference.

I was referring to this passage:

Multiple Grapplers
Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Up to four combatants can grapple a single opponent in a given round. Creatures that are one or more size categories smaller than you count for half, creatures that are one size category larger than you count double, and creatures two or more size categories larger count quadruple.

When you are grappling with multiple opponents, you choose one opponent to make an opposed check against. The exception is an attempt to escape from the grapple; to successfully escape, your grapple check must beat the check results of each opponent.

If a maximum of 4 people can be grappling you in a single round, then wouldn't the other 995 'grapplers' be left behind as the 5 people who can legitimately make/fail their grapple checks get moved half speed as normal? Chaining it doesn't work - A can grapple B, and B can grapple C, but if A is not grappling C, then C won't come along for the ride if A moves, because C never had the chance to fail his grapple check vs. being moved.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-30, 11:07 AM
Ah, right. It'll cause problems when you get stat-drained. Otherwise? Meh.

You are also automatically unconscious, because you have negative hitpoints, and your subdual damage is greater than your current hitpoints.

2010-05-30, 11:08 AM
I was referring to this passage:

If a maximum of 4 people can be grappling you in a single round, then wouldn't the other 995 'grapplers' be left behind as the 5 people who can legitimately make/fail their grapple checks get moved half speed as normal? Chaining it doesn't work - A can grapple B, and B can grapple C, but if A is not grappling C, then C won't come along for the ride if A moves, because C never had the chance to fail his grapple check vs. being moved.
Which means, that a group hug will make you immune to enemy's grapple attempts in addition to allowing a faster movement rate! :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 11:09 AM
Which means, that a group hug will make you immune to enemy's grapple attempts in addition to allowing a faster movement rate! :smallbiggrin:

...Awesome.:smallcool:

2xMachina
2010-05-30, 11:16 AM
There's another way too.

2,3,4,5 grapples 1
6,7,8,9 grapples 2
10,11,12,13 grapples 3
.
.
.

Heliomance
2010-05-30, 11:17 AM
And takes up one five-foot square, even if it has a million people involved.

Then there's the pesky "Death has no penalties" bit.

That's been disproved. A dead creature has -10 hitpoints, no matter how they died. Thus, their subdual damage (0) exceeds their current hitpoints (-10), so they are unconcious and thus helpless.

Of course, this still doesn't stop psionic characters from manifesting powers.

mostlyharmful
2010-05-30, 11:25 AM
actually, the troll thing doesn't work circa 3.0/3.5 since regen doesn't keep you alive when you asphixiate. And if you can't regenerate your lungs fast enough to get a functioning breathing sytem back together before you pass your Conx2 you start suffocating.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 11:26 AM
There's another way too.

2,3,4,5 grapples 1
1, 6,7,8 grapples 2 (9 can't grapple 2, because 1 is already)
1, 9, 10, 11 grapples 3
etc.
.
.
.

That still doesn't work, though, because actions are taken sequentially. In that scenario, you've got the grapplers 'stacked' like you said. 1 makes his grapple check against 2, 3, 4, and 5, auto-winning and moving that grapple 15ft. forward. He's not grappling 6, 7, and 8 though, so they stay in place,and can't be grappling 2 anymore because he's out of reach. 2 can't make his respective grapple check until 1 is finished, so he can't bring them alone as well.

Eldan
2010-05-30, 11:33 AM
True enough. But how long until you actually start suffocating? A troll has CON 23, more if he was built with a player stat array, most likely. So 46 rounds until he starts having to make saves. He regenerates 5 HP per turn. Even assuming our small bit of troll only has 1 HP, he regenerates back to full health in 12 rounds.
Of course, lost body parts take 3d6 minutes to regrow, a maximum of 180 rounds, which might be a problem.

2xMachina
2010-05-30, 11:34 AM
That's been disproved. A dead creature has -10 hitpoints, no matter how they died. Thus, their subdual damage (0) exceeds their current hitpoints (-10), so they are unconcious and thus helpless.

Of course, this still doesn't stop psionic characters from manifesting powers.

Still, Death effects, and Massive Damage (ie, any way to kill without going through HP) doesn't have that.

You can be 'dead' with 100+Hp.

Capt Spanner
2010-05-30, 11:38 AM
A 10' pole costs 30gp and a 10' ladder costs 10gp, IIRC.

2. Cut the ladder in half and remove the rungs.
3. You now have two 10' poles.
4. Sell them (+50gp)

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-30, 11:43 AM
A 10' pole costs 30gp and a 10' ladder costs 10gp, IIRC.

2. Cut the ladder in half and remove the rungs.
3. You now have two 10' poles.
4. Sell them (+50gp)

Close, but the numbers are wrong. a 10-foot ladder costs 5 copper pieces. You can sell a 10-foot pole for 1 silver piece.

EDIT: Also, you cannot sell for 30 gold pieces something that costs 30 gold pieces. You can, at best, sell it for 15 gold pieces.

Heliomance
2010-05-30, 11:49 AM
Still, Death effects, and Massive Damage (ie, any way to kill without going through HP) doesn't have that.

You can be 'dead' with 100+Hp.

Nope. As I said, it doesn't matter how you died, a dead creature automatically has -10 hp.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-30, 11:51 AM
Moving a Grapple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#move)

So if you have ten people grappling, each one can take a standard action to move the grapple by half their move (assuming all the others involved voluntarily fail the grapple check...), so ten people with a move of 30 can go 150 feet in one round. 1,000 people with a move of 30 can go 15,000 feet. In one round.

Yes, 15,000 feet, but only 15' apiece. Deliberate obtuseness is still obtuse.

WorstDMEver
2010-05-30, 11:56 AM
Close, but the numbers are wrong. a 10-foot ladder costs 5 copper pieces. You can sell a 10-foot pole for 1 silver piece.

EDIT: Also, you cannot sell for 30 gold pieces something that costs 30 gold pieces. You can, at best, sell it for 15 gold pieces.

The edit applies to 'used' goods and basic retail prices and is totally accurate.

However, assuming he has a source of 30gp whatsits, and he knows of a land where those whatsits sell for much more - say 100gp. Sure, it's possible - a bottle of Jack Daniels that costs \$12 in the US sells for \$32 in Korea. The trick is (and this applies to the first example as well) the \$900 plane ticket to Korea far outweighs the \$20 profit, unless you start looking at shipping huge amounts, then you have to deal with shipping costs, taxes and tarrifs... cutting your profit per unit even more. Not to mention the staff you'd have to hire (which adds payroll, more taxes, etc).

Gralamin
2010-05-30, 11:56 AM
Nope. As I said, it doesn't matter how you died, a dead creature automatically has -10 hp.

The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

See that Or clause? That means your HP is not reduced just because you die.

As for the Subdual damage argument, if you claim that, would you not also have to claim that Diehard is useless (Which I can't say I've checked whether it is by RAW, but it seems to be an odd way to go)?

WorstDMEver
2010-05-30, 12:10 PM
See that Or clause? That means your HP is not reduced just because you die.

As for the Subdual damage argument, if you claim that, would you not also have to claim that Diehard is useless (Which I can't say I've checked whether it is by RAW, but it seems to be an odd way to go)?

Hmm. This is nasty. In campaigns DM'd by my friends or myself, when you die you are reduced to -10 hit points when you die. Many others apparently do this as well. I believe that I will continue to do so because this semantic escape clause is illogical - which I guess is the whole point of this thread....

Heliomance
2010-05-30, 12:14 PM
See that Or clause? That means your HP is not reduced just because you die.

As for the Subdual damage argument, if you claim that, would you not also have to claim that Diehard is useless (Which I can't say I've checked whether it is by RAW, but it seems to be an odd way to go)?

Hmm, hadn't seen that Or clause before. Very well.

As for Diehard, pretty sure it falls under the Specific Trumps General exception.

allonym
2010-05-30, 12:18 PM
See that Or clause? That means your HP is not reduced just because you die.

As for the Subdual damage argument, if you claim that, would you not also have to claim that Diehard is useless (Which I can't say I've checked whether it is by RAW, but it seems to be an odd way to go)?

In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.

In the section on Special Abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm), under Death Attacks.

2xMachina
2010-05-30, 01:08 PM
...

Then I have another trick.

Rage claws, +1 essentia. Dies at -12HP.

If die, go to -10Hp, thus alive. If you kill again, still alive.

Rageclaws, the secret to immortality.

(Unless it says soulmelds unshape after death?)

Lapak
2010-05-30, 01:11 PM
A larger problem with the troll-lich is that only the larger part regenerates. Which is to say that the smaller part doesn't.

Which means that the smaller part acts like ordinary flesh, and rots away. It's a trick that's good for a couple of weeks at most.

PId6
2010-05-30, 01:25 PM
A larger problem with the troll-lich is that only the larger part regenerates. Which is to say that the smaller part doesn't.

Which means that the smaller part acts like ordinary flesh, and rots away. It's a trick that's good for a couple of weeks at most.
Gentle Repose

2xMachina
2010-05-30, 01:26 PM
Gentle Repose

Or really, chopping off a new piece every day.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-30, 01:46 PM
Make a full ranged attack against an adjacent enemy, because full attacks never provoke attacks of opportunity. That's the only way you can throw daggers without difficulty (because at 5' you'll normally provoke an AoO, and at 10' or more you get a range penalty).

Escheton
2010-05-30, 01:56 PM
The edit applies to 'used' goods and basic retail prices and is totally accurate.

However, assuming he has a source of 30gp whatsits, and he knows of a land where those whatsits sell for much more - say 100gp. Sure, it's possible - a bottle of Jack Daniels that costs \$12 in the US sells for \$32 in Korea. The trick is (and this applies to the first example as well) the \$900 plane ticket to Korea far outweighs the \$20 profit, unless you start looking at shipping huge amounts, then you have to deal with shipping costs, taxes and tarrifs... cutting your profit per unit even more. Not to mention the staff you'd have to hire (which adds payroll, more taxes, etc).

ah, yes, except: magic

Kish
2010-05-30, 02:00 PM
Or really, chopping off a new piece every day.
...A bigger problem is that all of these quickly lead to a troll with heavy incentive to tell whoever you're trying to send a message to the exact opposite of whatever you want that person to know.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-30, 02:15 PM
...A bigger problem is that all of these quickly lead to a troll with heavy incentive to tell whoever you're trying to send a message to the exact opposite of whatever you want that person to know.
Oh, that's not the way to do it reliably. The entirety of the message is contained in the regeneration itself. So you'll need a whole stable of troll parts, each one for a specific message. It's messy, but it's the only way to be sure. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 02:22 PM
Oh, that's not the way to do it reliably. The entirety of the message is contained in the regeneration itself. So you'll need a whole stable of troll parts, each one for a specific message. It's messy, but it's the only way to be sure. :smallbiggrin:

This entire discussion kind of makes me sick to my stomach. :smallfrown:

Flickerdart
2010-05-30, 02:34 PM
What: if the troll is regenerating, that's a 1, if not, then it's a 0? Troll-powered computing?

Tome
2010-05-30, 02:50 PM
Great. Someone figured out how to make a computer from mutilated trolls. :smallfrown:

Next thing you know we'll have a way to make an internet by feeding people to Mind Flayers.

:smalltongue:

Heliomance
2010-05-31, 06:46 AM
See that Or clause? That means your HP is not reduced just because you die.

As for the Subdual damage argument, if you claim that, would you not also have to claim that Diehard is useless (Which I can't say I've checked whether it is by RAW, but it seems to be an odd way to go)?

I was right after all. The relevant text is under death attacks.

Death Attacks
In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.

•Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack.
•Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
•In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.
•The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.

Emphasis mine.

2xMachina
2010-05-31, 06:50 AM
I was right after all. The relevant text is under death attacks.

Emphasis mine.

However, the problem arises when you don't die at -10HP.

With 1 essentia in rageclaws, you're alive and kicking at -10Hp.

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 07:07 AM
...

Then I have another trick.

Rage claws, +1 essentia. Dies at -12HP.

If die, go to -10Hp, thus alive. If you kill again, still alive.

Rageclaws, the secret to immortality.

(Unless it says soulmelds unshape after death?)

No. You die if something kills you. Unless an effect states that it can remove the 'dead' condition, it can't. Rageclaws don't remove the dead condition if it is applied to you, they merely change the amount of damage required to apply it.

The 'or' clause works both ways.

Kish
2010-05-31, 07:09 AM
No. If you are killed, then you die. Unless the effect states that it can remove the 'dead' condition, it can't. So you're still dead, even though you have too many hitpoints to be dead.
"Noo! I've got too many hit points to die!!!111"

2xMachina
2010-05-31, 10:07 AM
Unfortunately, the only 'drawback' of being 'dead' is that you can't receive healing. Not that you care, since you're stuck at -10Hp and still up and kicking.

Rules only, there is nothing saying dead people can't move/attack/talk etc. All they can't do is receive healing.

Sliver
2010-05-31, 10:16 AM
Unfortunately, the only 'drawback' of being 'dead' is that you can't receive healing. Not that you care, since you're stuck at -10Hp and still up and kicking.

Rules only, there is nothing saying dead people can't move/attack/talk etc. All they can't do is receive healing.

What about having no soul? Decaying?

The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

2xMachina
2010-05-31, 10:46 AM

And having BOTH a functional real body and a separately functional soul... I don't see any drawback to that.

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 12:01 PM

And having BOTH a functional real body and a separately functional soul... I don't see any drawback to that.

No, because, as always, the effects of being dead are held as self-explanatory and not worth noting. It is enough for the rules to say that you are dead, and only cover things that aren't self-explanatory, for example, that rigour mortis is not an issue.

2xMachina
2010-05-31, 12:24 PM
Why all the resistance?

This thread is dedicated to drown healing, grapple balls and other such silly things.

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 12:33 PM
Why all the resistance?

This thread is dedicated to drown healing, grapple balls and other such silly things.

It's actually dedicated to logic errors.

Dead characters are actually undefined behaviour - it's not that the rules say something that could be wrong in certain circumstances, it's that the rules say nothing at all.[hr]

Also, as an on-topic submission, HVTP (HyperVelocity Transfer Protocol) over CPRS (Commoner Packet Relay Service), aka Commoner Internet.

Basically the rules-legal counterpart to the commoner railgun - using commoners to pass messages such that they violate causality.

Heliomance
2010-05-31, 03:08 PM
Unfortunately, the only 'drawback' of being 'dead' is that you can't receive healing. Not that you care, since you're stuck at -10Hp and still up and kicking.

Rules only, there is nothing saying dead people can't move/attack/talk etc. All they can't do is receive healing.

This has already been mentioned and disproved this thread. Per the section on death attacks, a dead creature, no matter how it dies, has -10 hp. As its subdual damage (0 or more) then exceeds its current hp total, it is unconcious. Per the description of the unconcious status, it is helpless. This shuts down everyone except psions. Psions can manifest powers freely while dead, no-one else can do anything.

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 03:19 PM
This has already been mentioned and disproved this thread. Per the section on death attacks, a dead creature, no matter how it dies, has -10 hp. As its subdual damage (0 or more) then exceeds its current hp total, it is unconcious. Per the description of the unconcious status, it is helpless. This shuts down everyone except psions. Psions can manifest powers freely while dead, no-one else can do anything.

Psions still have to take actions to manifest, and dying wipes your PP reserve.

OracleofWuffing
2010-05-31, 04:23 PM
Well, by rules alone*, a two-pound bag of caltrops holds enough caltrops to stick to an infinite amount of creatures' feet. At least, from where I'm standing, there's no rule on how many creatures can get caltropped before all of the caltrops are removed from said square.

Similarly, having a caltrop on your foot probably reduces your fly speed.

* Yes, I know there's a common sense and logic rule in there that flies in the face of this, but if we start taking that in, then there are no logic exploits! :smallmad:

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 04:28 PM
* Yes, I know there's a common sense and logic rule in there that flies in the face of this, but if we start taking that in, then there are no logic exploits! :smallmad:

I'd say this is fine.

Brock Samson
2010-05-31, 05:13 PM
On the Death = -10 hp....

Why am I suddenly reminded of "You didn't Wish NOT to be on fire!"

Heliomance
2010-05-31, 05:25 PM
Psions still have to take actions to manifest.

Pretty sure the definition of helpless explicitly permits "purely mental actions".

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 06:54 PM
Pretty sure the definition of helpless explicitly permits "purely mental actions".

No, that's held or paralysed.

Although 'helpless' is actually a feature of several different conditions - unconsciousness means that you are helpless and can't take actions, whereas paralysed means that you are helpless and can only take purely mental actions.

PId6
2010-05-31, 06:57 PM
Hmm, neither Helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) nor Unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious) mention not being able to take actions... :smallwink:

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 07:24 PM
Hmm, neither Helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless) nor Unconscious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#unconscious) mention not being able to take actions... :smallwink:

Helplessness sets your dexterity to zero, so it automatically forbids any non-mental action.

Dying removes any juice you had left - so the only people the rules even remotely support being able to take actions while dead are characters who have access to purely mental actions that are not psionic powers or spells.

Incarnum users and binders might be able to do something, occasionally, but that's about it as far as I can tell - I'm pretty sure supernatural abilities that count as purely mental actions explicitly say so.

2xMachina
2010-06-01, 01:09 AM
This has already been mentioned and disproved this thread. Per the section on death attacks, a dead creature, no matter how it dies, has -10 hp. As its subdual damage (0 or more) then exceeds its current hp total, it is unconcious. Per the description of the unconcious status, it is helpless. This shuts down everyone except psions. Psions can manifest powers freely while dead, no-one else can do anything.

Specific over general. 1essentia in Rageclaws says you act normally if your HP is above -13HP. As dead sets you to -10HP, you're still good to go.

And soulmelds last until the shaper decides to unshape it. So, the corpse? It has all soulmelds it had while alive, and there's nothing to can do about that (except for some soulmeld unshaping powers)

dextercorvia
2010-06-01, 01:34 AM
Characters with levels in spellcasting PrC's with a able to cast X requirement (at least those from Complete Warrior) lose the features of said PrC's when they fall asleep (except for BAB, saves, and Hitpoints). And, they can never get them back.

As mentioned above sleep->unconscious->Dex=0->Can not perform (at least non-purely-mental) actions.

Drakevarg
2010-06-01, 01:52 AM
Characters with levels in spellcasting PrC's with a able to cast X requirement (at least those from Complete Arcane) lose the features of said PrC's when they fall asleep (except for BAB, saves, and Hitpoints). And, they can never get them back.

As mentioned above sleep->unconscious->Dex=0->Can not perform (at least non-purely-mental) actions.

Not really. They don't need to meet those requirements to keep the class features; just to gain them. It just means they can't take another level in that class while they're sleeping.

Otherwise you'd lose a lot of feats when you slept, as well.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-01, 02:00 AM
Not really. They don't need to meet those requirements to keep the class features; just to gain them. It just means they can't take another level in that class while they're sleeping.

Otherwise you'd lose a lot of feats when you slept, as well.Technically you do need the requirements to benefit from the feat or PrC class feature (hence the Dragon Disciple paradox). That said, you only lose the benefits for as long as you don't meet the requirements. So while you can't use Feat X or PrC class feature Y while you sleep, once you wake up you can. No biggie, unless you have defensive class features you'd like to have while sleeping.

mabriss lethe
2010-06-01, 02:04 AM
Bestow Curse is functionally one of the most beneficial spells in the game.

From the SRD:

You place a curse on the subject. Choose one of the following three effects.

-6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
-4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.
Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.
You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above. (emphasis mine)

Curse is an ambiguous term to say the least. As long as the magnitude of the effect does not exceed the benchmarks set in the spell description, you can use bestow curse to create it, no matter what the effect is.

Lord of Syntax
2010-06-01, 02:07 AM
Not by CA.

lsfreak
2010-06-01, 02:11 AM
Technically you do need the requirements to benefit from the feat or PrC class feature (hence the Dragon Disciple paradox). That said, you only lose the benefits for as long as you don't meet the requirements. So while you can't use Feat X or PrC class feature Y while you sleep, once you wake up you can. No biggie, unless you have defensive class features you'd like to have while sleeping.

CA and CW are both perfectly clear: if you lose the prereq for any period of time, you lose all benefits except HD, saves, and BAB.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-01, 02:32 AM
CA and CW are both perfectly clear: if you lose the prereq for any period of time, you lose all benefits except HD, saves, and BAB.CA and CW are perfectly clear that you lose the abilities; they are silent on whether that loss is permanent.

Edit: Now that I think about it, I suppose it is possible to qualify for a prestige class, gain a few levels in it, and then alter previous abilities so that the character only qualifies because he has the prestige class. In that case, the character would be screwed once he slept.

Zovc
2010-06-01, 02:57 AM
you can essentially omnislash your opponent.

I get how you kill thousands of rats according to the rules, but how do you 'omnislash' your opponent? You just kill 1,000 other things then hit them with a regular attack?

Oh, I think I see it. The rat goes to move away (on its turn), so you kill it and great cleave your opponent. Another rat's turn, it moves and provokes AOO, so you kill it and hit your opponent. I get it, you aren't just mass-murdering rats all in one fell swoop.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-01, 03:23 AM
In 3.0 I remember you could bring that same bag of rats and whirlwind attack all of them, each time cleaving someone next to you, so you weren't limited to the number of AoOs you could make in a turn.

For some reason, though, I thought the bag of rats trick was eliminated in 3.5. (Edit: Ah, they only eliminated it in the now-useless Whirlwind Attack. Typical WotC.)

lesser_minion
2010-06-01, 06:21 AM
Bestow Curse is functionally one of the most beneficial spells in the game.

From the SRD:
(emphasis mine)

Curse is an ambiguous term to say the least. As long as the magnitude of the effect does not exceed the benchmarks set in the spell description, you can use bestow curse to create it, no matter what the effect is.

It's quite clear that a curse must, in the very least, be harmful.

As for the bag of rats trick: if you're claiming the ability to automatically hit and kill a rat, you're assuming that your DM has declared it 'negligible'.

You must have a very weird DM if he's prepared to declare a creature 'negligible' for the purposes of being able to kill it, but non-negligible for the purposes of benefiting from its death.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-01, 06:57 AM
CA and CW are both perfectly clear: if you lose the prereq for any period of time, you lose all benefits except HD, saves, and BAB.
Nope. The Complete Arcane rule only loses Special abilities, unlike the Complete Warrior rule, which loses all class abilities. None of the spellcasting advancement (Spells per Day/Spells Known) are listed under Special abilities in any of the Complete Arcane classes. As these are mainly spellcaster PrCs, the difference is huge.

Both rules are perfectly clear. And they're significantly different in effect.

dextercorvia
2010-06-01, 08:15 AM
Edited above to Complete Warrior... I remembered that there was some weirdness.

OMG PONIES
2010-06-01, 12:21 PM
If the DM rules the bag of rats a swarm, doesn't that invalidate the whole cleave tactic? But I guess that's more suited for a thread on fixing logic errors in D&D. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know if it's logically inconsistent, but I've always found it interesting that it (usually) takes the same amount of time to retrieve a spell component, make an arcane gesture, and mutter your verbal component as it does to swing a sword once.

Mongoose87
2010-06-01, 12:52 PM
If the DM rules the bag of rats a swarm, doesn't that invalidate the whole cleave tactic? But I guess that's more suited for a thread on fixing logic errors in D&D. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know if it's logically inconsistent, but I've always found it interesting that it (usually) takes the same amount of time to retrieve a spell component, make an arcane gesture, and mutter your verbal component as it does to swing a sword once.

It makes sense if you remember that melee can't have nice things.

Caphi
2010-06-01, 12:55 PM
Characters with levels in spellcasting PrC's with a able to cast X requirement (at least those from Complete Warrior) lose the features of said PrC's when they fall asleep (except for BAB, saves, and Hitpoints). And, they can never get them back.

As mentioned above sleep->unconscious->Dex=0->Can not perform (at least non-purely-mental) actions.

Now you're just grasping at straws, sir. Even if we accepted your very, very strange reading of "able to cast" - a considerable concession, mind you - where does it say the class features don't come back when the caster wakes up?

ScionoftheVoid
2010-06-01, 04:23 PM
I don't know if it's logically inconsistent, but I've always found it interesting that it (usually) takes the same amount of time to retrieve a spell component, make an arcane gesture, and mutter your verbal component as it does to swing a sword once.

Swinging a sword once wouldn't take as long as casting a spell. Swinging a sword so that it wouldn't be a useless action (e.g. the swing is easy to see coming, not enough force behind it, there isn't an opening to attack, etc.) does. BAB determines the number of effective attacks you make, in-game you could be taking any number of swings. The fluff is mutable and all that. You could describe a full-attack as a single, very powerful strike if you wish, you still get more than one attack roll if you're entitled to such things normally.

lesser_minion
2010-06-01, 05:47 PM
If the DM rules the bag of rats a swarm, doesn't that invalidate the whole cleave tactic? But I guess that's more suited for a thread on fixing logic errors in D&D. :smallbiggrin:

I don't know if it's logically inconsistent, but I've always found it interesting that it (usually) takes the same amount of time to retrieve a spell component, make an arcane gesture, and mutter your verbal component as it does to swing a sword once.

This is very clearly explained in the book - your attacks are your efforts to hit the enemy, not a single swing of the sword.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-01, 06:01 PM
This is very clearly explained in the book - your attacks are your efforts to hit the enemy, not a single swing of the sword.
Agreement there. A single attack is the dodge and parry of combat and striking at an apparent opening that presents itself. Extra attacks and higher BAB are finding and exploiting those openings better.
Charge allows you to put extra force behind an attack, but leaves you exposed, hence the -2 to AC.
I know this may sound crazy, but sometimes the rules actually make sense!
And then when they don't, like the positive energy plain been actually beneficial to undead.

strider24seven
2010-06-01, 08:04 PM
Actually, the bag of rats trick lets a Frenzied Berzerker achieve infinite movement, as long as he can control the rats’ direction. Supreme Cleave lets you take a 5’ step in between Cleaves, so you smack a rat, move, smack, move, smack, move, smack, move, take your actual 5’ step, and then smack the desired enemy three times. You just have to get the rats to run in the same direction as the enemy, at relatively even intervals. So, theoretically, a Frenzied Berzerker can achieve infinite velocity.

And, on the subject of Frenzied Berzekers, even at –NI HP, they are not dead if they have Deathless Frenzy. So, smack them, cast Finger of Death on them, drop a planet on them, and they will still Shock Trooper Leap Attack Pounce you with a Valorous Lance.

Of course, a Frenzied Berzerker cannot use Balance at all, so he will fall apart after getting stuck for 10 or so rounds on Grease or Marbles.

My personal favorite DnD logical inconsistency is the “Peasant Railgun.”

-Buy/Acquire a 10’ pole (anything will do, but 10’ poles are fun because you can sell them for more than you bought the ladder)
-Hire a few thousand peasants and line them up in a single file line, 10’ apart.
-Have each of them ready an action to hand the pole to the next peasant, except for the last peasant in the line, who readies an action to throw the pole at your victim.
-Hand the pole to the first peasant, and watch a 10’ pole travel over 10,000 feet in 6 seconds.
-Of course, the pole is treated as an improvised thrown weapon, so the last peasant can only throw the pole 10 feet. And, an 8 lb pole impacting a target at speeds over Mach 3 will only do 1d6 damage, x2 if you crit!

lesser_minion
2010-06-01, 08:17 PM
And, on the subject of Frenzied Berzekers, even at –NI HP, they are not dead if they have Deathless Frenzy. So, smack them, cast Finger of Death on them, drop a planet on them, and they will still Shock Trooper Leap Attack Pounce you with a Valorous Lance.

No. Not true at all. The Finger of Death would still kill you, because Deathless Frenzy offers no protection whatsoever against dying from anything other than hitpoint damage. It's even explicitly stated that it doesn't protect you from anything other than dying due to negative hitpoints.

And, as before, negligible opponents:

Are a house rule. Killing them wouldn't count either.

You wouldn't achieve infinite velocity, because at some point you will roll a 1.

-Of course, the pole is treated as an improvised thrown weapon, so the last peasant can only throw the pole 10 feet. And, an 8 lb pole impacting a target at speeds over Mach 3 will only do 1d6 damage, x2 if you crit!

Because the fact it's going that fast in the first place wasn't already wrong enough (or, for that matter, already brought up as the 'commoner internet').

By the way, I can't find the rule that states that a 10' ladder is made from two 10' poles stuck together (ergo, nobody is going to buy the broken ladder from you).

And, by the way, that isn't bizarre in its own right - it's a fair bet that different materials were used to make each.

lsfreak
2010-06-01, 08:28 PM
And, on the subject of Frenzied Berzekers, even at –NI HP, they are not dead if they have Deathless Frenzy. So, smack them, cast Finger of Death on them, drop a planet on them, and they will still Shock Trooper Leap Attack Pounce you with a Valorous Lance.

Nitpick: death spells still drop you in deathless frenzy. It only deals with hit point damage.

EDIT: Multitabbing screws me over again! :smalltongue:

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-01, 08:32 PM
Actually, there's also the corollory of the bucket-drown-healer concept, too.

You dunk them in, their HP becomes 0, reguardless of what it was.
But it doesn't save them, because there's not actually any way to stop anyone from drowning once they start, so they just automatically die a couple of rounds later. "Oh what a world, what a world!"

Though, there still seems to be some debate about whether that would actually affect your adventuring career, I see. :smallsmile:

Note - I've heard there are rules in 'Its Wet Outside' to do the impossible, and stop someone drowning, however. :smallwink:

Dvandemon
2010-06-01, 09:07 PM
Great. Someone figured out how to make a computer from mutilated trolls. :smallfrown:

Next thing you know we'll have a way to make an internet by feeding people to Mind Flayers.

:smalltongue:

And how would that work?

WildPyre
2010-06-01, 09:17 PM
By the way, I can't find the rule that states that a 10' ladder is made from two 10' poles stuck together (ergo, nobody is going to buy the broken ladder from you).

I'm glad somebody finally said it! Seriously the sides of most ladders would more resemble a 2x4 than a pole... and even then it has hols in it for the rungs. So even if you did find a ladder with poles for sides the poles would still have holes cut in them for the rungs, and nobody is going to buy a 10 foot pole with holes in it.

Now if anyone has ever played the card based RPG Dragon Storm... the price for a sling in it is like 20 gold, while a leather stachel is like 1 gold. My friends and I always joked about buying the satchel, cutting off the strap and selling the strap as a sling. The item prices in that game were completely bjorked.

Randalor
2010-06-01, 09:33 PM
I was always under the impression that the reason a 10' pole cost so much was that the wood had been treated to prevent moisture damage, and that the ends had weighed caps on them *Try pressing a button on the floor with a 10' length of wood and see how easy it is. It's... not.*

lesser_minion
2010-06-02, 06:27 AM
I was always under the impression that the reason a 10' pole cost so much was that the wood had been treated to prevent moisture damage, and that the ends had weighed caps on them *Try pressing a button on the floor with a 10' length of wood and see how easy it is. It's... not.*

I usually hover between "it's actually a boat hook", "it's actually a longer quarterstaff - i.e. free" and "actually, the ladder is 5sp and that's a typo".

stenver
2010-06-02, 07:23 AM
A 10' pole costs 30gp and a 10' ladder costs 10gp, IIRC.

2. Cut the ladder in half and remove the rungs.
3. You now have two 10' poles.
4. Sell them (+50gp)

Doest work.
10 foot pole is, by any sane GM, considdered to be a perfect strong 10 foot pole.

10 feet ladder made into 2 poles is full of holes and weak. It is very easy to argue it like that by GM.

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 03:41 PM
No. Not true at all. The Finger of Death would still kill you, because Deathless Frenzy offers no protection whatsoever against dying from anything other than hitpoint damage. It's even explicitly stated that it doesn't protect you from anything other than dying due to negative hitpoints.

You wouldn't achieve infinite velocity, because at some point you will roll a 1.

Good call on the first. I'd forgotten that it was just HP damage that Deathless Frenzy protects against. Still, even after taking NI damage (assuming you can make the saves against Massive Damage), the FB is still standing... and fighting!

And good call on the 2nd point. Although you couldn't achieve infinite velocity, you could achieve an arbitrarily high velocity by including feats/items/maneuvers that let you reroll your attacks.

However, the "Peasant Railgun" does achieve extremely high velocities with a few thousand peasants in tow. I don't see why an object that travels 60,000 feet in 6 seconds through 6,000 peasants does not travel at 10,000 feet per second. And it only costs 600.2 gp to create a 16 MJ weapon:smalleek:. If there is a RAW reason why this shouldn't work, then please let me know because I plan to have this as a bail-out strategy for one of my campaigns (and I've already pulled it off once before, with a different DM, of course:smallbiggrin:). As far as I can tell, everything works, by RAW.

And as to the 10' poles/ladders- it's fairly safe to say that a ladder is made up of two separate 10' poles and a dozen or so rungs. I've seen it go either way, but I've never exploited it myself for fear of having a DMG-shaped bruise on my head.

lesser_minion
2010-06-02, 04:01 PM
However, the "Peasant Railgun" does achieve extremely high velocities with a few thousand peasants in tow. I don't see why an object that travels 60,000 feet in 6 seconds through 6,000 peasants does not travel at 10,000 feet per second. And it only costs 600.2 gp to create a 16 MJ weapon:smalleek:. If there is a RAW reason why this shouldn't work, then please let me know because I plan to have this as a bail-out strategy for one of my campaigns (and I've already pulled it off once before, with a different DM, of course:smallbiggrin:). As far as I can tell, everything works, by RAW.

The rules are quite explicit that some things are subject to not being completely ridiculous - e.g. talking, rather than any more defined limitation.

The Peasant Railgun doesn't produce an object moving faster than light, it merely produces an object that was three hundred miles away and is now here.

A teleport produces basically the same thing as far as the rules are concerned. Do characters teleporting 60 kilometres appear and then explode with the equivalent of their own mass in TNT the next time they hit something?

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:04 PM
But teleporting simply causes an object to disappear and reappear-
In this case, the pole actually does travel through the hands of 60,000 peasants, each 10' apart, so delta x over delta t is 60,000 feet over 6 seconds yields 6,000 feet per second. Simple physics. Which I realize are inconsistent in DnD games.

Edit: Put more simply, teleporting is a direct evasion of the normal time/space rules we are all familiar with- the peasant railgun is a way to bend those rules in game, not break them as we do with teleportation. And on the reason that teleported people don't explode with their mass in TNT is because they don't achieve an actual velocity, similar to the way an Alcubierre Drive works, and so they don't have any extra kinetic energy post-teleportation.

hamishspence
2010-06-02, 04:07 PM
In Discworld, there is an element of conservation of motion- if you teleport from near the Hub to near the Rim, the landscape will be moving quite fast relative to you (which means, from your point of view, you come out moving at high speed.)

It also requires that an object be teleported just as you have been- so, the moment you disappear, an object from the location you're teleporting to, appears where you've just disappeared from.

So, while in D&D a character teleporting a thousand or so miles, wouldn't arrive moving very fast, they might on the Disc.

lesser_minion
2010-06-02, 04:08 PM
But teleporting simply causes an object to disappear and reappear-
In this case, the pole actually does travel through the hands of 60,000 peasants, each 10' apart, so delta x over delta t is 60,000 feet over 6 seconds yields 6,000 feet per second. Simple physics. Which I realize are inconsistent in DnD games.

No, because it isn't simple physics. The object experiences three seconds of time per pass, doesn't it?

So how fast does it travel now?

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:10 PM
So, while in D&D a character teleporting a thousand or so miles, wouldn't arrive moving very fast, they might on the Disc.

IMO, the reason they are not moving very fast is because it is space that is moving, not the person's matter. Of course, you could just say that it's magic and move on. Or not. :smallcool:

Edit: And by passing the object from one character to another, it temporarily enters each character's inventory, and thus exists for an extremely small amount of time in the inventories of characters 60,000 feet apart, moving from one inventory to another, thus achieving an effective velocity.

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 04:10 PM
The logic exploit is that you've managed to perform an activity that takes several days in a single round.

So, what? You could do this as a form of mass torture and super-age anyone involved?

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:12 PM
So, what? You could do this as a form of mass torture and super-age anyone involved?

But, they wouldn't really age, would they, due to relativity (since their accelerations are not constant)?

lesser_minion
2010-06-02, 04:13 PM
So, what? You could do this as a form of mass torture and super-age anyone involved?

This is another "let's debunk the peasant railgun" discussion.

As I said, it merely violates causality, because the object somehow appears from several days into the future at the end of the round.

Oh, of course, it's kind of hard to model systems that are not causal, so... yeah. Congratulations, you literally broke the game.

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:16 PM
This is another "let's debunk the peasant railgun" discussion.

As I said, it merely violates causality, because the object somehow appears from several days into the future at the end of the round.

Oh, of course, it's kind of hard to model systems that are not causal, so... yeah. Congratulations, you literally broke the game.

I think I've missed something. Why is it appearing from several days in the future? As I understand it, the object travels from one point to another at an extremely high velocity. If it exceeds the speed of light, then DnD has no specific rules for time regression (IIRC). So, the object simply moves at a velocity that happens to be faster than 3*10^8 m/s.

Edit: And why does the object experience three seconds of time per pass? The entire event takes place in a six second window.

Lapak
2010-06-02, 04:18 PM
Nah, the quarterstaff pseudo-teleport is just an example of quantum physics in action! The quarterstaff is being handed off only the once in those six seconds; it's just that it has a quantum superposition at that point and it's impossible to determine exactly where the quarterstaff is at any given point except by measuring it (interrupting the pass), which collapses the waveform and localizes the staff. It never accelerates to a speed faster than the speed of being passed from hand to hand; it just happens to be in many possible places at once for that transfer.

Yeah, that sounds good. Go with that.

lesser_minion
2010-06-02, 04:19 PM
I think I've missed something. Why is it appearing from several days in the future? As I understand it, the object travels from one point to another at an extremely high velocity. If it exceeds the speed of light, then DnD has no specific rules for time regression (IIRC).

Time passes for the object every time an action is taken to pass it - no matter how far you pass the object, it goes there at about 1 metre per second, but takes three seconds to get to its destination.

So either you've violated conservation of energy, or you've violated causality.

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:19 PM
Nah, the quarterstaff pseudo-teleport is just an example of quantum physics in action! The quarterstaff is being handed off only the once in those six seconds; it's just that it has a quantum superposition at that point and it's impossible to determine exactly where the quarterstaff is at any given point except by measuring it (interrupting the pass), which collapses the waveform and localizes the staff. It never accelerates faster than the speed of being passed from hand to hand; it just happens to be in many possible places at once for that transfer.

Yeah, that sounds good. Go with that.

Whoah! It's like Heisenburg's Theory... of Quarterstaffs?!:smalleek:

So you cannot simultaneously know the exact position and damage dice of the 10' pole in question?

Edit: Lesser Minion: Is passing an object a standard action? If so, then I understand your point. But as I understand it, only the peasant at the end is "attacking" and using a standard action, which, IIRC, is about 3 seconds.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-02, 04:23 PM
Edit: Lesser Minion: Is passing an object a standard action? If so, then I understand your point. But as I understand it, only the peasant at the end is "attacking" and using a standard action, which, IIRC, is about 3 seconds.

The rest of the chain is readying an action to pass along the staff to the next guy. Readying is also a standard action.

lesser_minion
2010-06-02, 04:23 PM
Whoah! It's like Heisenburg's Theory... of Quarterstaffs?!:smalleek:

So you cannot simultaneously know the exact position and damage dice of the 10' pole in question?

Edit: Lesser Minion: Is passing an object a standard action? If so, then I understand your point. But as I understand it, only the peasant at the end is "attacking" and using a standard action, which, IIRC, is about 3 seconds.

Yes, you have to use readied actions, IIRC so every peasant takes a standard action.

Actually passing an object is a move action ("manipulate an item"), like switching an item from one hand to the other.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-02, 04:24 PM
Actually, there's also the corollory of the bucket-drown-healer concept, too.

You dunk them in, their HP becomes 0, reguardless of what it was.
Not that far-fetched. Worked for Fezzik and Inigo Montoya, after all.

Eldan
2010-06-02, 04:24 PM
Bah.
D&D is a fantasy world where things consist of four elements and two kinds of energy.

Can you really say how fast a particle of radiance energy is moving? Perhaps the speed of light is just much higher in D&D? Perhaps there is no light speed and radiance particles move instantly?

Seriously, D&D does not have to have anything resembling real world physics at a deeper level. Most likely it doesn't, thanks to magic.

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:25 PM
But if passing a staff is anything but a free action (edit: and it's a move action), then the object takes a quantifiable time to move between peasants, so it would take more time to go from one peasant to the next than to move from the beginning to the end of the line, violating causality. Wow. I hadn't even thought of bringing relativistic physics to my next DnD session, but now....:smallcool:

And we usually try to assume that the DnD world is somewhat similar to our own, with gravity and the speed of light, and Planck's constant, and so on, until we are proven wrong or until magic or Tome of Battle is involved.

lesser_minion
2010-06-02, 04:28 PM
Well, there is no precedent in the rules for anything that must violate conservation of energy. There are plenty of things that violate causality.

So for resolving the quarterstaff thing, it presumably obeys CoE and travel one metre per second for several days until it reaches the end of the chain. Everyone else observes that to only take three seconds, even though they never observe the object to be travelling fast enough.

Also, it would be utterly impossible to resolve if the object didn't obey CoE - so does the object have about 4 joules of energy, or the energy of a small nuclear bomb?

Oh, fun fact - even if the second interpretation were correct, it's the last commoner who 'stops' the item before throwing it. Instagib commoner, anyone?

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:32 PM
Well, there is no precedent in the rules for anything that must violate conservation of energy. There are plenty of things that violate causality.

So for resolving the quarterstaff thing, it presumably obeys CoE and travel one metre per second for several days until it reaches the end of the chain. Everyone else observes that to only take three seconds, even though they never observe the object to be travelling fast enough.

Also, it would be utterly impossible to resolve if the object didn't obey CoE - so does the object have about 4 joules of energy, or the energy of a small nuclear bomb?

The DM I got it to work with ruled that it had a few MJ of energy, and thus acted like an actual railgun, which we used to blow a hole in the BBEG's castle walls. Good thing he didn't fortify them with Walls of Force or there would have been an inelastic collision and the pole would have flown back at us:smalleek:.

Edit: Lol at commoner getting blown to pieces from CoE.

2xMachina
2010-06-02, 11:08 PM
Buy a large/huge quarterstaff and use it to poke stuff as 10' pole. (weight problems though)
Buy tiny/diminutive quarterstaffs and throw at buttons (you'll nat 20 it eventually)

They're all free.

Makiru
2010-06-02, 11:54 PM
...there are so many dead cats around here.

I don't have anything to contribute, but it had to be said.

Oh, right, there's always the "Monk isn't proficient in his own fists" thing.

Along the same vein, there's nothing explicitly saying that a Necklace of Natural Attacks or being an unarmed Kensai can't make your own arms/claws/tentacles/teeth/horns/random body part Throwing and Returning, leading to all kinds of wackiness.

WildPyre
2010-06-03, 12:11 AM
Oh, right, there's always the "Monk isn't proficient in his own fists" thing.

Along the same vein, there's nothing explicitly saying that a Necklace of Natural Attacks or being an unarmed Kensai can't make your own arms/claws/tentacles/teeth/horns/random body part Throwing and Returning, leading to all kinds of wackiness.

Works best for Warforged... you get an awesome rocket punch. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCrFkc1cAQA)

Makiru
2010-06-03, 12:50 AM
Works best for Warforged... you get an awesome rocket punch. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCrFkc1cAQA)

Yeah, but the problem is it works for everything else, too. Rocket stumps probably weren't intended during the conceptual phase.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-06-03, 02:34 AM
Rocket stumps probably weren't intended during the conceptual phase.

There are times when rocket fists aren't intended?

WildPyre
2010-06-03, 03:40 AM
Yeah, but the problem is it works for everything else, too. Rocket stumps probably weren't intended during the conceptual phase.

Well IIRC returning keeps anything from ever preventing the item from coming right back, so flavor wise you could always explain it as some sort of super awesome kung fu distance chi punch.

If I were DMing I'd demand that your character make that Bruce Lee "Waaaaaa!" noise every time though.

lesser_minion
2010-06-03, 06:11 AM
Oh, right, there's always the "Monk isn't proficient in his own fists" thing.

Unarmed strikes can be in any part of the weapons table they like.

The game treats them as a special case of a natural weapon.

Stompy
2010-06-03, 10:17 AM
However, the "Peasant Railgun" does achieve extremely high velocities with a few thousand peasants in tow. I don't see why an object that travels 60,000 feet in 6 seconds through 6,000 peasants does not travel at 10,000 feet per second. And it only costs 600.2 gp to create a 16 MJ weapon:smalleek:. If there is a RAW reason why this shouldn't work, then please let me know because I plan to have this as a bail-out strategy for one of my campaigns (and I've already pulled it off once before, with a different DM, of course:smallbiggrin:). As far as I can tell, everything works, by RAW.

So the last peasant (lvl1 commoner) throws your object. Lets assume it is a club because they are free, craftable in 0 seconds, and can be thrown. Let's also assume the last peasant has proficiency in it. Then, by RAW, he is throwing that club with a +DEX to hit, range increment 10 ft., max range 50 ft., for 1d6+STR damage.

RAW does not support velocity, nor energy considerations, in ranged weaponry.

This is the simplest way I can think of debunking the peasant railgun without killing catgirls.

lesser_minion
2010-06-03, 10:19 AM
So the last peasant (lvl1 commoner) throws your object. Lets assume it is a club because they are free, craftable in 0 seconds, and can be thrown. Let's also assume the last peasant has proficiency in it. Then, by RAW, he is throwing that club with a +DEX to hit, range increment 10 ft., max range 50 ft., for 1d6+STR damage.

RAW does not support velocity, nor energy considerations, in ranged weaponry.

This is the simplest way I can think of debunking the peasant railgun without killing catgirls.

That's true.

The exploit is that you've just violated causality, not that you've ripped apart a monster by chucking a club at it with the force of a small nuke.

Swap out the commoners for zombies, and you now have SLTP (SuperLuminal Transmission Protocol) over ZPRS (Zombie Packet Relay Service). From there, you aren't too far from having The Internet. D&D style.

Binks
2010-06-03, 10:35 AM
Swap out the commoners for zombies, and you now have SLTP (SuperLuminal Transmission Protocol) over ZPRS (Zombie Packet Relay Service). From there, you aren't too far from having The Internet. D&D style.

Did you just? :smalltongue:. I like the acronym ZPRS, sounds suitably speedy.

2xMachina
2010-06-04, 08:10 AM
Breaking time...

Have a roman forum. Each one talks 1 sentence (1 sentence per round per person sounds ok right?)

Now, with 100 people, there are now 100 sentences. Which you hear consecutively (due to init) in 1 round.

Axolotl
2010-06-04, 08:22 AM
However, the "Peasant Railgun" does achieve extremely high velocities with a few thousand peasants in tow. I don't see why an object that travels 60,000 feet in 6 seconds through 6,000 peasants does not travel at 10,000 feet per second. And it only costs 600.2 gp to create a 16 MJ weapon:smalleek:. If there is a RAW reason why this shouldn't work, then please let me know because I plan to have this as a bail-out strategy for one of my campaigns (and I've already pulled it off once before, with a different DM, of course:smallbiggrin:). As far as I can tell, everything works, by RAW.It doesn't work because velocity doesn't affect damage so you've payed all that money with no extra benefit.

Also you need 6,000 peasants in a straight line that's generally very impractical.

2010-06-04, 08:24 AM
There's a skill trick called Shrouded Dance. Basically, make a perform check, gain concealment.

If you have concealment you can hide.

Charismatic rogues can begin dancing and thus be invisible

Frozen_Feet
2010-06-04, 08:35 AM
There's a skill trick called Shrouded Dance. Basically, make a perform check, gain concealment.

If you have concealment you can hide.

Charismatic rogues can begin dancing and thus be invisible

In a fantasy setting... that's not really an exploit. That's what any sufficiently good show person shoud be able to do. Considering the wackiest illusions possible in real life, it's nothing to get worked up on. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-06-04, 08:41 AM
Troll Blooded doesn't have a racial requirement, just a regional one. Now, the feat gives you Regeneration 1, but makes you Fatigued in sunlight.

Warforged are immune to fatigue. :smalltongue:

lesser_minion
2010-06-04, 08:41 AM
Making a tower shield disappear by hiding behind it is a pretty fun exploit.

2010-06-04, 09:43 AM
Making a tower shield disappear by hiding behind it is a pretty fun exploit.

Obviously it's a camo shield.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-04, 10:58 AM
Have a roman forum. Each one talks 1 sentence (1 sentence per round per person sounds ok right?)

Now, with 100 people, there are now 100 sentences. Which you hear consecutively (due to init) in 1 round.
Probably not. You're allowed to talk as a free action even when it's not your turn; initiative doesn't enter into it. There's no rules statement that these sentences will be heard, though; in fact, it's nearly guaranteed they'll run atop each other.

jiriku
2010-06-04, 11:30 AM
Great. Someone figured out how to make a computer from mutilated trolls. :smallfrown:

Next thing you know we'll have a way to make an internet by feeding people to Mind Flayers.

:smalltongue:

Actually, I think we could do that. Since troll-mutilation is a favorite mind flayer sport (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101587), and the mind flayer troll farm does inevitably generate some "spare parts", voidmind troll "clients" remotely operated by mindflayer "servers" could easily mimic the internet. Hmm, but how could one mind flayer accumulate enough actions to serve the same information out to many troll clients at once? I bet there's a psionic power that would work....

Frozen_Feet
2010-06-04, 11:34 AM
Search the forums for Emerald Legion, for all your Mindflayer and Voidmind Troll needs. The abuses detailed in that thread are... mind-numbing.

They also give you ideas how to build trollnet. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-06-04, 11:35 AM
Search the forums for Emerald Legion, for all your Mindflayer and Voidmind Troll needs. The abuses detailed in that thread are... mind-numbing.That's actually the thread he linked, so I'd assume he is familiar with it.

jiriku
2010-06-04, 12:21 PM
The BBEG in the campaign I currently run is presently attempting to breed the Emerald Legion as a super-soldier to tip the balance in a nasty land war. The players haven't tumbled to it yet, although they've noticed they're facing progressively more messed-up-looking troll shock troopers.

I really should go the distance now and have him use the voidmind trolls and mind flayers as a long-distance communication system once he's got them. It's so much more colorful than warlocks with sending.