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View Full Version : Alternative casting class brainstorming.



Hadrian_Emrys
2010-05-29, 08:44 PM
What think you lot of a class with a skill based casting system? You know, where one's actual skills determine effective spell selections and potency? I mean, I can't see a balance issue with DCs based on something like 11 + 1/2 relevant skill ranks (1/2 the average, when casting spells with multiple related skills), rounded up + casting attribute bonus (for this class, it is currently Int)...

-but I fear I may be blinded by bias, so I leave the concept to be picked at by the collective.

Edit: If you look at the base formula, the idea is that DCs would be determined by however many ranks one had in a spell's related skill(s). Thus, the DC for a spell cast with a maxed lvl 1 skill would be 13 (11 + [4 ranks divided by 2, rounded up]) + Int vs a good save bonus of 2 + related attribute. While the DC for a spell cast with the same maxed lvl 20 skill would have a DC of 23 (11 + [23 ranks divided by 2, rounded up]) + Int vs a good save bonus of 12 + related attribute. This way, max ranked spells will roughly have a 50% shot of affecting those of the same level (well, those with good relevant saves anyway) so long as the casting stat and the save stat are equal. Using the same attributes, it would also mean that those with poor related saves should, roughly, have a 25% chance to save against the same spell. I cannot think of any possible way to design a save system that is as fair OR makes as much sense given the way that skills and saves scale with each other.

As a thematic bonus, basing the spell DC potency on skill ranks (as opposed to skill checks) seems to indicate that it is understanding of the skill that shapes the magic, not personal ability. Should MAGIC prevent a crippled person from casting spells dealing with agility/mobility? I think not. With a class such as this, all that should matter is the caster's level of conceptual mastery. In a sense much truer than a Wizard, this class should exemplify the notion of one transcending one's own limitations through intellect as they strive for complete understanding of the world around them.

Better still? On a mechanical level, this brand of magic scales right through into epic levels without fail, unlike the painfully broken taint that is the current brand of epic casting.

Rauthiss
2010-05-29, 09:24 PM
The general consensus on skill based casting, from what I can gather, is "Ick." The truenamer (Tome of Magic) is the only real example from WotC, and the thoughts on that are often less than optimal - it is either insanely hard to be consistent, or it is easily overpowered, depending on funding, DM discretion, and if you like fermented dairy products. If you'd like a challenge, a balanced skill-based caster would be cool to see. However, that's quite a feat to take on. If you choose to, I would look at some of the truenaming fixes on the board and use those as a base.

The main difficulty with balancing them is the amount of ways that a skill check can be modified. Skill focus is a +3 right there, and with synergy, skill boosting items, and item familiars, bonuses can get out of hand quickly. In addition, the natural fluctuation of a d20 is very unlikable, mainly due to the chance of failure and therefore wasting your turn.

Lysander
2010-05-29, 10:43 PM
What about a class that worked the other way: your spells just grant you temporary skill points or temporary use of feats.

So instead of casting spider-climb you'd have a spell to give you 10 ranks of climb for a brief period of time. Instead of casting magic missile, you'd cast a spell to grant you weapon proficiency feats so you could enter melee combat. Etc.

Siosilvar
2010-05-29, 11:01 PM
To counteract failure rates... I'd suggest using low DCs to actually cast, but give actual effects out for every X above you roll (to a limit, of course, which is the cap on your skill check).

For example, Magic Missile.

Evocation, DC 8
You fire one missile at a target, dealing 1d4+1 force damage.
For every 4 points by which you beat the DC, you may fire one more missile (but no more missiles than half your caster level).

sidhe3141
2010-05-29, 11:01 PM
What about a class that worked the other way: your spells just grant you temporary skill points or temporary use of feats.

So instead of casting spider-climb you'd have a spell to give you 10 ranks of climb for a brief period of time. Instead of casting magic missile, you'd cast a spell to grant you weapon proficiency feats so you could enter melee combat. Etc.

Those may as well already exist: there's no real mechanical difference between +10 untyped bonus and +10 temporary ranks other than synergies and I recall there being spells that effectively grant feats.


To counteract failure rates... I'd suggest using low DCs to actually cast, but give actual effects out for every X above you roll (to a limit, of course, which is the cap on your skill check).

For example, Magic Missile.

Evocation, DC 8
You fire one missile at a target, dealing 1d4+1 force damage.
For every 4 points by which you beat the DC, you may fire one more missile (but no more missiles than half your caster level).

This sounds workable. While we're at it, we could try overhauling the rest of the rules to use Margins of Success/Failure outside of specific abilities (or maybe that's too ambitious a project).

Lysander
2010-05-29, 11:04 PM
Those may as well already exist: there's no real mechanical difference between +10 untyped bonus and +10 temporary ranks other than synergies and I recall there being spells that effectively grant feats.

I'm sure there are many abilities like that, but I don't think there's a class entirely devoted to temporarily gaining feats and skills. Well, there's the chameleon class but I don't think it's quite as flexible as what I have in mind.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-05-29, 11:44 PM
Rauthiss: :smallbiggrin: I've made a clarification edit in the OP specifically as a response to your input. Skill boosts do nothing as the DCs are not determined by checks, but by the ranks themselves. I don't think it'll end up being a perfect system when I am done, but it sure as Hades will make more sense and/or be more balanced than the tripe WotC has pinched off.

Lysander: I like the concept a lot, but it seems to me that the potential for that class would be more of a rogue rehash that would pull off the skill monkey role better than the current incarnation. I'll add it to my eventual to-do list.

Siosilvar: I believe the edit inspired by Rauthiss will clarify the intent of things a little better. While I do intend for skill checks to be a viable part of adding kicker affects to spells, the current system for figuring saves should remain unchanged until such a time as it is confirmed broken.



Those responses given, I really appreciate the input I am getting. Thanks a lot. :smallsmile:

sidhe3141
2010-06-16, 12:11 AM
Maybe we could link different types of spells to different skills (Climb for Spider Climb, Hide for Invisibility, and so forth)? That way, we wind up blurring the line between skillmonkey and caster, possibly resulting in SR-Adept-style casters whose magic is an outgrowth of more mundane skills.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-06-24, 04:04 AM
That is exactly what the idea was to accomplish! :smallbiggrin: