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dextercorvia
2010-05-29, 10:41 PM
Human Beguiler1/Wizard5

Feats
Flaw:Versatile Spellcaster
Flaw:Practiced Spellcaster(Beguiler)
1st: Sanctum Spell
Human: Invisible Spell
3rd: Rapid Spell
Wiz5: Repeat Spell
6th: Arcane Thesis (Mnemonic Enhancer)

Equipment: One scroll of Mage's Lucubration with scribing supplies, or one Spellbook containing it.

When leveling to Wiz5, do so in your sanctum, choose Mnemonic Enhancer and Fire Trap to add to your spellbook. You can do this, because you can technically and actually cast 4th level spells (beguiler and wizard at this point). Lets say among your spells known are Phantom Steed and Haste.

Leave your sanctum.
Cast a 3rd level spell...Say Haste
Effect: You feel faster.

Now use two of your 3rd level slots to cast Sanctum/Invisible/Rapid/Repeated Mnemonic Enhancer (Hereafter SIRR Enhancer)
Effect: One minute later you get your Haste Back, Round the next you get your SIRR Enhancer back too...You now have a spell prepared in a 4th level spell slot.

Cast your newly acquired SIRR Enhancer one more time.
Effect: You have 2 4th level spell slots each containing a SIRR Enhancer.

Use Two SIRR Enhancers to cast a SRR Enhancer Targeting the SIRR Enhancer from the previous step and itself on the repeat.
Effect: You have 1 4th level slot holding SIRR Enhancer, and 1 5th level slot holding a SRR Enhancer.

Cast your newly acquired SRR Enhancer 15 more times.
Effect: 1 4th level slots holding SIRR Enhancer, 16 5th level slots holding SRR Enhancers

Use two SRR Enhancers to cast a Repeated Haste, followed by a SIRR Enhancer targeting Repeated Haste and itself on the repeat. 8 times.
Effect: 1 4th level slot holding SIRR Enhancer, 8 6th level slots holding Repeated Haste

Use two Repeated Hastes to cast Rapid Repeated Phantom Steed, followed by a SIRR Enhancer targeting Rapid Repeated Phantom Steed and itself. 4 times.

Effect: 1 4th level slot holding SIRR Enhancer, 4 7th level slots holding Rapid Repeated Phantom Steed. Several Magic Steeds.

Use two RR Phantom Steeds to cast a SRR Fire Trap, followed by a SIRR Enhancer targeting SRR Fire Trap, and itself. Twice.

Effect: 1 4th level slot holding SIRR Enhancer, 2 8th level slots holding SRR Fire Trap, Several Magic Steeds, and some traps.

Take a break and learn Mage's Lucubration.

Cast Haste again. Use two SRR Fire Traps to cast Sanctum Repeated Mage's Lucubration targeting Haste and then itself.

Effect: 1 9th level slot holding a SR Mage's Lucubration... Rinse and Repeat.... The rest is gravy.

Hendel
2010-05-29, 11:07 PM
This has too many flaws that I do not even know where to begin to start.

#1 A Beguiler 1/Wizard 4 cannot cast 4th level spells.

#2 I think you are confused at what Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Thesis, and most of the other feats actually do.

#3 There is no way that you can legally cast a spell (unless you use an item) that is higher than the highest level spell that you can cast. In this case 3rd level Wizard and 1st level Beguiler.

Unless I am missing something, your post does not hold any water. Sorry!

Doc Roc
2010-05-29, 11:37 PM
even if this works, it is merely a weak version of an existing trick that produces 9th level spells by 6th level using a cleric, sanctum spell, and extra spell slot, along with a couple other abuses.

PId6
2010-05-29, 11:37 PM
I kinda stopped trying to work it out towards the end, but it seems to work so congrats! Doesn't do anything useful until you level up again (early entry) or take something like Arcane Strike, but still fun to think about. You forgot to take Rapid Spell though; you don't actually need Practiced Spellcaster that I can see, so just trade the two feats.


This has too many flaws that I do not even know where to begin to start.

#1 A Beguiler 1/Wizard 4 cannot cast 4th level spells.

#2 I think you are confused at what Practiced Spellcaster, Arcane Thesis, and most of the other feats actually do.

#3 There is no way that you can legally cast a spell (unless you use an item) that is higher than the highest level spell that you can cast. In this case 3rd level Wizard and 1st level Beguiler.

Unless I am missing something, your post does not hold any water. Sorry!
1. A Beguiler 1/Wizard 5 with Sanctum Spell can cast 4th level spells, since inside his sanctum, a Sanctum Spell counts as 1 spell level higher.

2. Seems to be perfectly right as far as I can see.

3. It relies on a questionable reading of how Mnemonic Enhancer interacts with Versatile Spellcaster, but beyond that, this seems to work fine by RAW. It's purely TO anyway.

Hendel
2010-05-29, 11:55 PM
I kinda stopped trying to work it out towards the end, but it seems to work so congrats! Doesn't do anything useful until you level up again (early entry) or take something like Arcane Strike, but still fun to think about. You forgot to take Rapid Spell though; you don't actually need Practiced Spellcaster that I can see, so just trade the two feats.


1. A Beguiler 1/Wizard 5 with Sanctum Spell can cast 4th level spells, since inside his sanctum, a Sanctum Spell counts as 1 spell level higher.

2. Seems to be perfectly right as far as I can see.

3. It relies on a questionable reading of how Mnemonic Enhancer interacts with Versatile Spellcaster, but beyond that, this seems to work fine by RAW. It's purely TO anyway.

#1 Sanctum Spell: "Benefit: A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level."

That says the spell is one level higher for purposes of DC and other factors that depend on spell level (Globe of Immuntiy, etc). It does not say they can cast a spell that is one level higher than they can cast.

#2 What I meant here is that Practiced Spell Caster affects the Caster Level for all things that depend on that, it does not, again, allow for the caster to cast spells that are higher than he can cast. For example, in this case he would use caster level 6 to get through SR if the feat was applied to his wizard levels. If it was applied to his Beguiler level, then he would cast those spells as a Caster Level 5 but he would still only have the spells of a 1st level Beguiler.

In regards to Arcane Thesis, I wanted to make sure he knew that it cannot decrease the level of the spell below it's original spell level. For example, a Fireball can be reduced to 3rd level with this feat and the application of metamagic feats, but not to 2nd. This might be a moot point but I could not follow his logic on how he was applying all of the above metamagic feats and still be able to cast spell even with the use of Versatile Caster.

#3 Mnemonic Enhancer: "Casting this spell allows you to prepare additional spells or retain spells recently cast. Pick one of these two versions when the spell is cast.

Prepare
You prepare up to three additional levels of spells. A cantrip counts as level for this purpose. You prepare and cast these spells normally.

Retain
You retain any spell of 3rd level or lower that you had cast up to 1 round before you started casting the mnemonic enhancer. This restores the previously cast spell to your mind.

In either event, the spell or spells prepared or retained fade after 24 hours (if not cast)."

I don't see anything confusing there or anything that would suggest that you can cast a spell that is higher than what your actual class level in a casting class will allow you to cast.

Sorry, RAW, this does not work how he thinks it does.

PId6
2010-05-30, 12:22 AM
#1 Sanctum Spell: "Benefit: A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level."

That says the spell is one level higher for purposes of DC and other factors that depend on spell level (Globe of Immuntiy, etc). It does not say they can cast a spell that is one level higher than they can cast.
If you can cast a Sanctum Haste spell (which a 5th level wizard can do), you can by RAW cast a 4th level spell, since Sanctum Haste is a 4th level spell inside your sanctum. Ergo, a 5th level wizard with Sanctum Spell can cast 4th level spells. This has been used numerous times in early entry builds and works quite fine by RAW (the reason why Sanctum Spell is so borked).


#2 What I meant here is that Practiced Spell Caster affects the Caster Level for all things that depend on that, it does not, again, allow for the caster to cast spells that are higher than he can cast. For example, in this case he would use caster level 6 to get through SR if the feat was applied to his wizard levels. If it was applied to his Beguiler level, then he would cast those spells as a Caster Level 5 but he would still only have the spells of a 1st level Beguiler.
No one's disputing that. In fact, I'm not sure why Practiced Spellcaster is there at all; I don't think it actually does anything for the build.


In regards to Arcane Thesis, I wanted to make sure he knew that it cannot decrease the level of the spell below it's original spell level. For example, a Fireball can be reduced to 3rd level with this feat and the application of metamagic feats, but not to 2nd. This might be a moot point but I could not follow his logic on how he was applying all of the above metamagic feats and still be able to cast spell even with the use of Versatile Caster.
Sanctum (-1) Invisible (-1) Rapid (+0) Repeated (+2) Mnemonic Enhancer is a 4th level spell. It still doesn't go below 4th level, so the errata condition of Arcane Thesis is satisfied.


I don't see anything confusing there or anything that would suggest that you can cast a spell that is higher than what your actual class level in a casting class will allow you to cast.
The most questionable reading is whether if you cast SIRR Enhancer using Versatile Spellcaster, that Mnemonic Enhancer restoring that spell would grant you a 4th level spell slot. It's arguable that since SIRR Enhancer was never prepared in the first place, that casting Mnemonic Enhancer targeting it would do nothing. The RAW is quite unclear on this point, however, so it's arguable either way.

dextercorvia
2010-05-30, 01:10 AM
You forgot to take Rapid Spell though; you don't actually need Practiced Spellcaster that I can see, so just trade the two feats.

The Practiced Spellcaster was for entry into Ultimate Magus to keep the caster level up. Switched. Recaster is probably a better choice anyway.

Edit: Actually I just forgot to type his 3rd level feat.


even if this works, it is merely a weak version of an existing trick that produces 9th level spells by 6th level using a cleric, sanctum spell, and extra spell slot, along with a couple other abuses.

Do tell. What is stronger than 9th level beguiler + wizard casting? Sure you are casting mainly off of the Beguiler list at ECL 6, but you can learn any wizard spell you want now. The prepped SR Mage's Lucubration will bring back all of those spells you cast earlier in the day giving you infinite (time limited only) spellslots. Versatile Spellcaster means you can always cast the spell you want. I kind of pictured this guy as Shrodinger's Wizard. There is something to be said about spontaneous casting off of as much of the Wizard spell list as you can WBL. Oh, and he never has to rest.


The most questionable reading is whether if you cast SIRR Enhancer using Versatile Spellcaster, that Mnemonic Enhancer restoring that spell would grant you a 4th level spell slot. It's arguable that since SIRR Enhancer was never prepared in the first place, that casting Mnemonic Enhancer targeting it would do nothing. The RAW is quite unclear on this point, however, so it's arguable either way.
Agreed. However, this is a prepared caster, so there definitely is a way in which such a spell would be prepared normally, and that is in a 4th level slot.

Wings of Peace
2010-05-30, 04:36 AM
Level 1. We call it Pun Pun.