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deephelldragon
2010-06-01, 07:03 AM
I am trying to find out what is the best LA 0 playable character and if you could how would you make him. I am level 2 I just need the race and any classes that you like.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-01, 07:11 AM
what level of cheese are you wanting to exploit?

Without any background then your answer is pun-pun, at each level of optimization you'll get a different result but the best I've ever seen in an actual game was Human Wizard5/Incantrix10/Archmage5 which is quite hard to beat with relatively sane gamable characters.

kamikasei
2010-06-01, 07:12 AM
Five tons of flax.
The question is unanswerably meaningless. You could look at Pun-Pun or the Omniscifer (Google them) if you want characters so powerful as to be pointless. You could read a druid or wizard optimization guide if you want a powerful character that would still work at a table. None of these strengths make a character 'best', though.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-01, 07:43 AM
You'll need to be more specific.

Assuming you want a working character that won't make the DM try to stab your eyes out I recommend Druid; it's a spellcaster, it can be used in melee, it gets an animal companion that's a better Fighter than a Fighter.

Its the full shebang, especially if you play an Anthropomorphic Bat fromm Savage Species (+6 Wis and size doesn't matter because of Wild Shape).

Mongoose87
2010-06-01, 07:45 AM
Samurai 20 with a specialization in sundering.

Critical
2010-06-01, 07:48 AM
Samurai 20 with a specialization in sundering.

Samurai Optimization Rule 1: Don't play a Samurai.

Amphetryon
2010-06-01, 08:00 AM
Samurai Optimization Rule 1: Don't play a Samurai.
See Shneeky's Test of Spite entry and get back to me on this one. :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 08:23 AM
Samurai 20 with a specialization in sundering.

If you really want to be a sundering machine, Binder is the way to go.

(Tome of Battle may be good as well but I am not familiar with it.)

Psychonix
2010-06-01, 09:45 AM
I've always felt that Necropolitan was a rather good LA 0 race/template.

Apply it to another LA 0 race, humanoid or monstrous humanoid.

Gain ALL Undead traits.
Resist Control (Ex): Necropolitans have a +2 profane bonus on their
Will saving throws to resist the effect of a control undead spell.

Turn Resistance (Ex): A necropolitan has +2 turn resistance.

Unnatural Resilience (Ex): Necropolitans automatically heal
hit point damage and ability damage at the same rate as a living
creature. The Heal skill has no effect on necropolitans; however,
negative energy (such as an infl ict spell) heals them.

You do lose your con score however, so you no longer gain con bonuses on hit points per level and when you actually have to take a fort save, it generally won't be brilliant.

And my personal favourites; you no longer need to eat, sleep, drink or breathe.

Doc Roc
2010-06-01, 09:51 AM
Five tons of flax.
The question is unanswerably meaningless. You could look at Pun-Pun or the Omniscifer (Google them) if you want characters so powerful as to be pointless. You could read a druid or wizard optimization guide if you want a powerful character that would still work at a table. None of these strengths make a character 'best', though.

I am only offering you a more cogent answer because Mu was too short, which is to me very ironic. So I'm with K here, and basically think this is a very silly question for three reasons:

1) A great deal of power in a character comes from an understanding of how it works. Presuming you stuck to known abilites, I could probably take you down while you were playing pun-pun.
2) Power is pointless if it eradicates the only arena in which is can be displayed. In my experience, you can win D&D, and your only prize is becoming the DM for the next umpteen years.
3) Even so, I still have no idea what you want. I mean, my static answer is going to be a ruinous stack of full-casting PrCs with a human for the sake of the feat.

Flickerdart
2010-06-01, 10:05 AM
Well, he said level 2, so presumably he wants the best level 2 build, which narrows the options a little bit. You're pretty much stuck with Pun-Pun or Druid, and the former isn't a build so much as a terrible mistake.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 10:31 AM
I've always felt that Necropolitan was a rather good LA 0 race/template.

A more accurate description is that it is LA +1, which you then immediately buy off. Not quite free but close.

And yes, at level 2 Druid rules the roost, though Cleric isn't far behind with the right domains.

How are Artificers at low levels?

Escheton
2010-06-01, 11:01 AM
Becoming a personal fave of mine: trollblooded(feat) human crusader.

Mongoose87
2010-06-01, 12:05 PM
If you really want to be a sundering machine, Binder is the way to go.

(Tome of Battle may be good as well but I am not familiar with it.)

If you really want to be a sundering machine, be careful your party doesn't poison your Mountain Dew.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 12:09 PM
If you really want to be a sundering machine, be careful your party doesn't poison your Mountain Dew.

Why would they? Shouldn't they be happy that the enemy has nothing left to attack with but sticks and harsh language?

(Cookie for whoever gets the reference)

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-01, 12:15 PM
Why would they? Shouldn't they be happy that the enemy has nothing left to attack with but sticks and harsh language?

(Cookie for whoever gets the reference)

True, but you'rre also breaking their future loot, making it worthless.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 12:18 PM
True, but you'rre also breaking their future loot, making it worthless.

Ah, didn't think of that :smalltongue:

But it's still nice to have as an option if a battle is going south. Further, a Binder doesn't have to optimize for Sundering to the exclusion of other tactics like a Fighter would.

lsfreak
2010-06-01, 12:19 PM
Why would they? Shouldn't they be happy that the enemy has nothing left to attack with but sticks and harsh language?

(Cookie for whoever gets the reference)

Kael'thas, second? level of the human campaign in WC3:TFT

Sundering depends entirely on your DM's willingness to allow you to rebuild broken magic items. Or your ability to pick out which weapons are masterworked and which weapons are the +1 keen collision bodyfeeding that the crit-build warblade wants.

Well, to start off with, generally good +0 races are human (free feat), dwarf (saves), strongheart halfling (small + free feat), whisper gnome (stealthy), and water orc (very strong).

JeenLeen
2010-06-01, 12:19 PM
For races, I have heard and seen some of the following as the best:

Human - free feat
Strongheart Halfling - halfling with free feat (I might have the name slightly off)
Dwarf - +2 to saves against magic, good stats (+2 Con, -2 Cha)
Whisper Gnome - has some useful SLAs, like Silence

There's also a +0 template from Manual of the Planes, a frog-like humanoid, that gives you bonuses to charging and throwing and is pretty decent. And I think there's a sub-race of humans which interbred with Silver Dragons that are also good, but I don't remember what their stats are.

For level two, it does depend on what you want to do. Wizards can be strong, and a Gray Elf gives you +2 Int to help with DCs and bonus spells (although the -2 CON still hurts), but at low levels they are extra vulnerable to HP death. Druid probably is the best overall. Cleric probably isn't a bad choice, either, although at low levels your party might insist on you playing healbot, since wands of Cure Light Wounds are still expensive. Factotum isn't a bad option if you want to go skillmonkey, but I haven't played them and don't know how they are at low levels.


EDIT: and playing off the post above me, Dragonborn Water Orc is incredibly cheesey and strong, so I hear.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-01, 01:23 PM
There's also a +0 template from Manual of the Planes, a frog-like humanoid, that gives you bonuses to charging and throwing and is pretty decent. And I think there's a sub-race of humans which interbred with Silver Dragons that are also good, but I don't remember what their stats are.


If you are talkning about Neraphs, they are a race, not a template.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 01:46 PM
Kael'thas, second? level of the human campaign in WC3:TFT

Correct!


Sundering depends entirely on your DM's willingness to allow you to rebuild broken magic items. Or your ability to pick out which weapons are masterworked and which weapons are the +1 keen collision bodyfeeding that the crit-build warblade wants.

Given a choice between ruining my loot and ending up chopped in half by a foe that's too tough to take down, I'll go without loot.


If you are talkning about Neraphs, they are a race, not a template.

They're also Outsiders, not Humanoids. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2)

There is some controversy on these forums whether an Outsider with +2 Natural Armor should have +0 LA, even if he does look like a bipedal frog. :smalltongue:

strider24seven
2010-06-01, 03:36 PM
Pretty much Dragonborn+anything without racial abilities is good. Dragonborn Water Orc is pretty cheesy. Gray Elf Dragonborn is pretty neat for a free INT bonus and feats to Chaos Shuffle, though. Although, IIRC, you need 100 gp to become a Dragonborn, which is easily anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of your gp at level 2.

If you gain a level, then any race with a decent INT score becomes a mean Factotum.

You can (almost) never go wrong with a human.

Neraphs are cheesy only because they get proficiency with all Simple and Martial weapons on a technicality (they are Outsiders).

Anything with a STR bonus makes a wicked Dungeoncrasher Fighter.

Anything with wings (Dragonborn, and Raptoran is +0 LA, IIRC) is good, but they make a cheesy powerful Dungeoncrasher, simply because they can Bullrush an enemy straight down for stupid damage. Dragonborn Water Orc is awesome for this.

Greenish
2010-06-01, 03:42 PM
And my personal favourites; you no longer need to eat, sleep, drink or breathe.You can get those, along with a niice bunch of immunities, via warforged. They're a pretty nice race.

Dragonborn Water Orc is pretty cheesy.It's not cheesy, it's just quite good for a melee beatstick.

strider24seven
2010-06-01, 03:57 PM
It's not cheesy, it's just quite good for a melee beatstick.

I'd say that +4 CON, +2 STR, Wings/Fear Immunity/Firebreath, for +0 LA is kinda cheesy. It's a weak cheese though. Not like some of the +1 LA nonsense I've seen.

But it is good for a beatstick.

Devils_Advocate
2010-06-01, 04:52 PM
"Best" in what sense? Most enjoyable? If so, most enjoyable to who? (Most enjoyable to the respondent, or seemingly most enjoyable to 3.5 players in general, based on perceived reputation?)

Greenish
2010-06-01, 04:58 PM
I'd say that +4 CON, +2 STR, Wings/Fear Immunity/Firebreath, for +0 LA is kinda cheesy.It's actually +4 Strength, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, and you only pick one of the specials. The flight kicks in at level 6 and isn't at-will until level 12.

It's not cheesier than other dragonborns, especially since it's only good for dump brutes.

Eldariel
2010-06-01, 05:02 PM
It's actually +4 Strength, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha, and you only pick one of the specials. The flight kicks in at level 6 and isn't at-will until level 12.

It's not cheesier than other dragonborns, especially since it's only good for dump brutes.

The penalties are actually quite severe since basically all decent melee builds want some mentals, and skill points tend to be in very short supply and quite relevant too. And having a Dex-penalty hurts a lot.

You're left with a respectable Steadfast Determination Frenzied Berserker and decent for some Totemist/Warblade/Crusader-builds, but by and large the sheer number of penalties hurts especially if you want to be good at anything except click'n'kill charging (which, while efficient, is also very easy to counter and not always applicable; Totemist naturally has more versatility though).

Mark Hall
2010-06-01, 05:17 PM
I am trying to find out what is the best LA 0 playable character and if you could how would you make him. I am level 2 I just need the race and any classes that you like.

Human.
Dwarf is also good.

Look at a druid. A dwarf druid is tough, has a penalty in a non-essential attribute (Charisma), a bonus in a essential one (Con, which carries over to wild shape). His class features are very nice, and he's got good spellcasting.

At level 2, you're not going to find much stronger than a Dwarf Druid.

PId6
2010-06-01, 05:32 PM
Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Incarnate Construct Warforged is LA +0. Squicky cheese!

goken04
2010-06-01, 06:17 PM
Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Incarnate Construct Warforged is LA +0. Squicky cheese!

That is some stinky gouda.

Greenish
2010-06-01, 06:23 PM
Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Incarnate Construct Warforged is LA +0.So is Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Xvart.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-01, 06:28 PM
So is Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Xvart.

So a Xvart is a -2 LA?

(Of course, Half-Minotaur for 3.5 should be +2 LA, just like Half-Ogre is.)

Greenish
2010-06-01, 06:32 PM
So a Xvart is a -2 LA?According to Crystal Keep, at least.

It's actually not that bad race. Small size, 30' movement, 60' darkvision, +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-01, 06:35 PM
According to Crystal Keep, at least.

It's actually not that bad race. Small size, 30' movement, 60' darkvision, +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Con.

How is that even a -1?:smallconfused:

Greenish
2010-06-01, 06:35 PM
How is that even a -1?:smallconfused:Favored Class: Fighter. :smalltongue:

[Edit]: They can also speak to rates (sic) and bats 1/day as an SLA.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-01, 06:36 PM
Favored Class: Fighter. :smalltongue:

And this matters to a Druid 20 why?

I really really hate that damn mechanic...:smallyuk:

tyckspoon
2010-06-01, 06:41 PM
How is that even a -1?:smallconfused:

I would almost bet on it being an error that they just never bothered to correct, it being sourced from Dragon and all. The same Dragon (according to Crystal, anyway) also contains a flying-squirrel-humanoid, which is stuck with the same size and stat mods, but is LA 0.. the biggest practical difference is that it has the Glide ability.

Then again, Xvarts are basically malevolent Smurfs. Maybe the -2 LA is a reward for being willing to put up with it once your group realizes that.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-01, 06:43 PM
Then again, Xvarts are basically malevolent Smurfs. Maybe the -2 LA is a reward for being willing to put up with it once your group realizes that.

cause that matters when you're a fullcaster with an entire spell level on the humans?:smallmad:

Psychonix
2010-06-02, 07:47 PM
You can get those, along with a niice bunch of immunities, via warforged. They're a pretty nice race.

I prefer the undead traits gained by necropolitan. Warforged is nice I will grant, and the fluff behind them is quite interesting.
But I guess at the end of it all, I just like the idea of the necropolitan :elan:

balistafreak
2010-06-02, 08:18 PM
cause that matters when you're a fullcaster with an entire spell level on the humans?:smallmad:

Negative LA does not grant you additional levels above the standard ECL. You need to spend it or lose it and be LA 0.

... right?

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 08:47 PM
So is Half-Minotaur Mineral Warrior Xvart.
No, they're +2 LA.

Xvarts are LA +0; check Dragon # 339 on page 64.

CrystalKeep is an index site, not a real source.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 08:57 PM
Negative LA does not grant you additional levels above the standard ECL. You need to spend it or lose it and be LA 0.

... right?

I believe you're correct.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-02, 09:31 PM
Venerable Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, starting at level 2 you should go Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 1. That will give you 4th level Wizard spellcasting starting out, and be sure to either specialize in Conjuration to get Augment Summoning at Wizard 1 or use the Fighter Feat variant from UA to probably get Improved Initiative there, since Spellhoarding gives you Scribe Scroll for free anyway. Take more Stalwart Battle Sorcerer levels until you can qualify for a prestige class, or jump straight into Master Specialist.

Otherwise, go with a Dragonborn Water Orc Warblade, or maybe go Crusader and plan on gaining Mineral Warrior.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-02, 09:38 PM
Venerable Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Loredrake, starting at level 2 you should go Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 1. That will give you 4th level Wizard spellcasting starting out, and be sure to either specialize in Conjuration to get Augment Summoning at Wizard 1 or use the Fighter Feat variant from UA to probably get Improved Initiative there, since Spellhoarding gives you Scribe Scroll for free anyway. Take more Stalwart Battle Sorcerer levels until you can qualify for a prestige class, or jump straight into Master Specialist.

Otherwise, go with a Dragonborn Water Orc Warblade, or maybe go Crusader and plan on gaining Mineral Warrior.

Would you like some wine with your cheese, sir?

mostlyharmful
2010-06-03, 04:47 AM
Negative LA does not grant you additional levels above the standard ECL. You need to spend it or lose it and be LA 0.

... right?

Which is why you use templates that boost spellcasting such as White Dragonspawn... if you're using negative LA why not really go for the Gouda?:smalltongue:

Nidogg
2010-06-03, 05:52 AM
. And I think there's a sub-race of humans which interbred with Silver Dragons that are also good, but I don't remember what their stats are.

Silverbrow humans from Dragon Magic- Get dragonblooded subtype and instead of skillpoints get slow fall... 1/day I think.... and get bonuses to disguise...

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-03, 06:15 AM
Silverbrow humans from Dragon Magic- Get dragonblooded subtype and instead of skillpoints get slow fall... 1/day I think.... and get bonuses to disguise...

1/day + 1 extra use/5 HD.
+2 disguise.

I like them, especially since I had a DM let anything with Dragonblood qualify for Dragonwrought. So I got all the cheese with none of the Small Size :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Woo Firbolg :smallcool: