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randomhero00
2010-06-06, 08:46 PM
So I want to through something really out there for my players to fight. Probably built by gnome or dwarf engineers. Its going to be a steampunk (steam powered not sure) style mech (mecha) with a pilot inside. But I like to know how things work rather than just hand waving such a thing. Obviously I'm not expecting detailed blue prints or anything but does anyone have any idea on how it would work?

Would it use hydrolics? Could a steam engine realistically power something almost as heavy as a tank? If so would it have a huge furnace on its back powered by coal? A fire elemental? How would it stay upright (how would the gyro work)? Magic can definitely be used for some of it, but I don't want it to be some super golem with pilot hole (that sounds dirty lol...) I want that distinct steampunk flavor. What sort of weapons should it have?

Flob
2010-06-06, 08:56 PM
If I were to build one of this, I would definantly give it a steam-cone effect usable once every X rounds. Also, I think it would use gears, dunno why, but it is a staple of steampunk to use gears. Lot's of random pipes and things if you need some thought for the description. I like the idea of a furnace in the back, although one in the front could be interesting for flavor and for crunch; have the driver throw people into it. Food for thought.

VirOath
2010-06-06, 09:11 PM
Well, the WoW RPG has a D20 system almsot exactly like DnD (Just some different spells and such) and they have a Tech System for Tinkers to build stuff with. Everything from guns to extending bridges to nades, to suits of steam armor.

It's turned into a more simplified thing for PCs for steam armor in the later books, but for what you are looking for it work just fine from it's core. It would be that the suit would have it's own hitpoint value based on it's size and tech advancements, It's own scores for Str and Dex (Mental scores are more for autonomous machines) based on tech advancements, and Armor AC as well.

Weapons deal damage at 1d6 per 3 tech levels put into it, per round. A round of 1 weapon can be fired like a bow with the proper skills. But, if you have it have a firing cycle of one every three rounds, it's now a D6 a level. 1 every 9 is 3D6 a level.

And that could be targeted attack hitting AC, or a reflex save with an increasing value based on tech level.

And, for the record, Tech Level is 1 + Levels in Tinker (Or other class that has Craft Tech Device as a class skill) + Feats. The highest tech level spent in any one slot is the tech level for the item, but you only add value during building based on the highest tech value and your check. So something with 100 TL 1 values will be more expensive and take longer to build than a device with 1 TL 100 item. Note: These are extremes.

A steam armor can be a tech device in of itself, then other tech devices can be added on up to It's TL-1! Just don't go too overboard...

Oh, and all of the movement types are put in there too, as well as climbing AND flight. Flying motorcycle gangs in DnD! It's an awesome system they put in.

Edit: Oh, and I better make this clear. Max Tech Level able to be made not like caster level. A character able to build a Tech Level 20 item can build one with as many TL 20 values as he wants or as many values of less than 20 independently of each value, it just increases the price. It compares decently with magic, but really expensive.

Another_Poet
2010-06-07, 03:14 AM
Well, the short answer is, no. Victorian-era steam technology cannot possibly power and drive a mecha with all of its coordinated motor movements, massive weight, etc. It is not possible with the limits of that technology.

However assuming you are going to run the game anyway, and just want some idea of the sort of technology that would go into it, here is my take on it.

Let's assume the Mecha is a 20 story tall human-shaped robot.

1) Structure. This thing will essentially have "bones" and "skin" and will need a lot of steel girders. The bones will be steel support columns that run inside the body from joint to joint. The skin will be a framework of steel girders with some material stretched over them. The best material to put over them would be something light like canvass. It prevents enemies from seeing the inner workings or the locations of any personnel inside, although it obviously won't stop bullets, but almost everything is made of steel and the important bits will be armoured, so who cares. Canvass skin is good because it is not very heavy. If you want it to look more anime however the skin should be sheets of steel riveted to the framing.

Of course, these are steel struts that connect the "bones" to the framing girders of the "skin."

2) Joints. Joints would be massive in order to hold the strain of all the weight. They would have to be well lubricated, with grease being added between each mission (possibly continuously during operation). Hydraulics would be the best substitute for muscles to articulate the joints. Hydraulics were used in Victorian trains (IIRC) so that is no problem. The real problem is that each set of hydraulics will need its own boiler to produce pressure. And thus, each will need its own coal hopper.

3) Drive. Essentially the 6 boilers powering the thigh, knee and ankle hydraulics are generating the power to move the thing around. The 6 on the shoulders, elbows and hands are allowing its attack motions. Optionally the waist might have the ability to bend/turn as well, but most likely it is fixed. The mecha moves more like frankenstein's monster than a gundam.

4) Weapons. I'm going to arbitrarily say a steam-driven cutting wheel on the left hand, (driven by the hand boiler which also pressurises the hand hydraulics), a hammer-like smashing weapon in the right hand, and a variety of cannons on the shoulders/back and stomach. You can use standard naval cannons and onboard cannon crews. May as well have a steam cannon too - however if you want realistic technology, this is not going to be a geyser of steam shooting out the mouth like a breath weapon. That would cool before reaching ground level, so it's useless against ground forces; and it would have no effect on an enemy mecha. Instead the steam cannon is a series of vents on each foot which can lambast the area around the foot with steam from the ankle boilers. These are the same boilers that pressurise the ankle hydraulics so excessive use may result in temporary loss of walking ability, but they sure will scald any boarding parties who dare to rush the feet.

5) Coordination. This is where it really becomes impossible using Victorian technology. Almost everything above here is just ridiculous logistics. But the coordination... wow.

The most realistic thing is to have two settings: forward and off. Each of the 6 lower body hydraulics (2 pairs each of thigh/knee/ankle) would fire in a regular sequence causing the legs to move in a walking motion. The sequence is managed by a cylinder not unlike the ones used in pianos that play on their own. You can speed up the sequence, moving faster; or slow it to a stop. If you tried to move too fast you would fall over because the mecha can't adjust its gait from walk to run to jog. Again, there is just forward and off - so be careful with that throttle. Using this system, gradual turning to one side might be possible by throttling down the leg on that side. However this is a high risk of falling over. This mecha works best as a straight charger. Which is fine, it's still a formidable weapon. The arms of course would have a different cylinder with two settings: attack wildly and off.

The second most realistic thing is to have a small selection of programs the legs are capable of running. Instead of one set of cylinders at each lower body joint, you'd have several. By changing out the cylinders you can change the sequence of motions the legs are going through. This would allow you to "shift" from walk to jog to run, for instance - assuming you have a crack crew and some great leverage for rapid cylinder-changing. You could add other programs like "polka" (for parades) and "rochambo" (for kicking the other mechas where it hurts). You could have a cylinder for Sharp Turn Right and Sharp Turn Left. "Sharp" here is still relative. You can avoid hitting a hill that's in front of you but probably not take 90 degree street corners. A similar set of cylinders for the arms would allow different attack routines.

Of course what you really want is total movement like a real person. I cannot think of a way to do this with anything like Victorian technology. To be clear, robots that walk or dance with the fluidity of a real person have only been made in the last 10 years, tops. And even they mostly have very limited programs of what movements they can do.

You could try to claim that a series of punch cards, or ropes unwinding from pegs, or thousands of tiny piano cylinders that can be engaged or disengaged mechanically - something like that - can act like a computer program to drive the thing, where the pilot pulls a variety of levers which activate pegs or cylindars mechanically, and thus cause fine movements. It's pure fantasy but it is grounded in the actual mechanics of what would be needed.

6) Balance. Again, nearly impossible here. What looks cool is to have a big gyroscope in the head which allows the thing to balance... but this won't work. The reason is that when the gyroscope senses an off-balance state, it would have to send signals to the appropriate body parts to change their motion to correct balance. Victorian tech has no way of sending such signals. No circuits, no radio... nothing. The way they'd have to do it is someone is watching the gyroscope, and then that person yells through a talking tube to the person in the thigh (for example) and then the person in the thigh heaves a lever that moves ballast around... or maybe they change out a cylinder so that a different thigh motion comes into play. But before the person can even yell into the tube, the mecha falls over. It's too slow a system.

What you could do instead is decentralise balance. I would have a gyroscrope at each ankle, knee and thigh as well as each shoulder. The gyroscopes would be set to different levels of sensitivity. For example, if the thing is slightly off balance, the ankle can correct it, so it is the most sensitive gyroscope. If the ankle fails to correct it then the knee and then the thigh need to try, so they are each less sensitive by a certain amount. When the gyroscope show and imbalance then the balance operator at that joint takes immediate corrective action. Possibly you can cut out the operator altogether and use a mechanical switch, triggered by the gyroscope, to shift ballast in the appropriate direction. Since the gyro is right there in the joint a mechanical switch is possible.

The shoulder gyros are a last ditch failsafe. I assume that, other than the cannon decks, the torso is mainly empty. So you may as well have a huge amount of ballast on sliding tracks. The shoulder gyros are the least sensitive, so if they go off, massive ballast is moved rapidly across the torso to compensate.

Of course this is all ridiculous because the very walking motion of the mecha would set off the gyroscopes in myriad ways nonstop. Without computers there is almost no way to correct for this and allow the gyros the respond to the "bad" imbalances while ignoring the "goof" imbalances. Possible exception is the forward-or-stop charger model outlined above, since every step is the same gait you could possibly use a mechanical correction to block that particular motion from setting off the gyro, so only non-step-related motion would set it off. This would work on flat ground at least.

Well... good luck!

ap

edit: actually this setup does make for a nice layout in a game. The PCs have to storm the feet to get on board... and survive the steam blasts to do it. Inside, they'll have to climb from station to station. The foot station has a heavy security force trained to repel boarders. The ankle station has a boiler crew, a gyroscope operator, an engineer, and several guards. You have to kill the guards but you may want to leave the rest of the crew working if you don't want the thing to fall over.

Crossing the ankle joint will be dangerous, as it is moving as you climb through it.

Then you climb the leg to the knee station. Again, boiler crew, gyro op, engineer, guards.

Crossing the knee is dangerous.

The upper leg is full of hundreds of rotating cyliders. Then the thigh station with the usual boiler crew etc.

After passing through the groin it is fight city. 60 or so cannon crew are now turning and fighting the boarders, and the boarders have to ascend ladders amidst sliding ballast cars that could crush a man without even slowing down. Cylinders or punch cards or something fill the remaining space, and damaging any of them could cause the whole thing to topple.

The PCs would have no need to go down the arms, and in the head they would find the captain and other bridge crew, surely high level and badass... then once they defeat them, the PCs have to take control and prevent the thing from collapsing!

Deth Muncher
2010-06-07, 03:19 AM
Look up Goodman Games' "Dragonmech" series of books. They've got all sorts of different kinds of mechs, and details on how they work.

J.Gellert
2010-06-07, 03:25 AM
Or said mech could be a 100-ft tall steam-powered mechanical spider. :smallcool:

Malfunctioned
2010-06-07, 03:47 AM
Or said mech could be a 100-ft tall steam-powered mechanical spider. :smallcool:

Aw hell naw!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-07, 05:01 AM
The Antikythera Mechanism (http://io9.com/5441889/advanced-imaging-reveals-a-computer-1500-years-ahead-of-its-time), mechanical technology literally capable of anything. You just need enough of the right size gears moving in just the right way, which could take an generations of engineers multiple lifetimes to design and build. Given the long lives and affinity for technology and/or metal crafting of races such as Gnomes and Dwarves, they could likely invent something and pass it down to the next generation, which refines and improves the design and passes it down the line. Steampunk is based on the idea of highly advanced mechanical technology such as the above link, as though we never developed electricity or electronics or binary devices and everything in existence ran on mechanical energy and analog controls. Something like a steampunk style mech is mechanically possible, but realistically the amount of design, number and complexity of parts, and possibility for malfunction of those parts is far too high for any sort of development or widespread use. Fantasy games have stronger and lighter materials, magical propulsion, and inhumanly high bonuses to skill checks, so in those worlds the impossibly large and complex devices of steampunk are possible.

BlueWizard
2010-06-07, 05:11 AM
Zeb Cook has a great map of a robot all laid out in this module. It was a great one, and if it wasn't so well known, I'd run it again. Or a version of it.

EARTHSHAKER:

http://cdn2.ioffer.com/img/item/140/323/519/dvga.jpg

Grumman
2010-06-07, 05:54 AM
Victorian tech has no way of sending such signals. No circuits, no radio... nothing.
They've got mechanical power, and they've got steam pressure. It might be difficult, but it's certainly possible.

Jeff the Green
2010-06-07, 06:04 AM
Structure:
You've got mythril, right? Use that if the designer has the resources. Much lighter, much more practical. Make sure that the canvas skin has been fire-proofed. Otherwise a spark will send it up. Also remember that triangles are your friend; they're much stronger than other shapes.

Power:
Normally steam engines are limited by two things: the boiler size and the fire size. You can get around the fire size by using a fire elemental (or some sort of magic). Boiler size is a bigger problem. I think that a single boiler would work better than multiple ones. First, you're not going to be using every "muscle" at once. If you have valves to move, say, one limb at a time, it'll be much more efficient.

An alternative to pistons might be a material that changes length in response to heat. There's some funky plastics that we use now, but it could be the rope of some exotic plant or just some magic rope. Just have coils of pipes surrounding the "muscles," and a blast of steam through them will make the muscle contract.

Balance:
I don't think multiple gyroscopes are the way to go here. You can easily reach the point of no return without your foot changing orientation. I would think a single head-based gyroscope connected via magic to the limbs would work very well.

A better idea, if you're not married to the idea of a humanoid mech, is to have six legs. That way three can always be on the ground, giving a very stable platform. That will eliminate the need for gyroscopes and complex programming to maintain balance.

Weapons:
First of all, you're going to have a lot of smoke coming from the boilers. It can emit that to give a Stinking Cloud- or choking powder-like effect.

Like Another Poet said, steam breath isn't particularly realistic. Heat breath might be, though. If you had a blast of air go through the furnace and out onto someone, it would burn the heck out of them.

Cannons are good, as are pincers (grappling?) or wrecking balls. If it's designed to kill armies, it could also be a mobile platform for archers or have sweeping attacks at ground level. If it's meant to demolish cities, definitely a wrecking ball.

Good luck, it sounds like fun!

DanReiv
2010-06-07, 06:30 AM
You should probably take a look at the Iron Kingdom D20 setting, there should be plenty of stuff for steampunk, mecha and so on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Kingdoms

Did the Witchfire campaign a while ago and it was pretty cool.

Also here's a link to a flash mecha designer that I used recently to picture the warforged scout (http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8654/warforgedartificer5.jpg) (wu-jen/artificer/abj champion) that I'll use in our summer campaign. Might be handy for you.

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/444899

panaikhan
2010-06-07, 07:33 AM
Anyone who's ever seen a Gnomish Sidewheel knows that mechanical inventions in D&D do not have to justify 'how' they work - it's just assumed they 'do'.
Even the Apparatus of Qualish is only a pseudo-magical construct (some of it's features still work in magic-dead areas).

Technologically speaking, don't limit yourself to what is 'known' by a particular culture. I own a very interesting game suppliment that basically explains that a lot of the time, people had the technology, they just didn't know how to apply it. One example of this is their 'alternative reality' concept of Roman soldiers decimating their enemies with crude (but working) automatic firearms, built using methods and materials the Romans knew if only someone had had the brainstorm of putting them together.


Stability:
If you go for a minimum of four legs (six is better) the construct always has a stable base. Only inclines and extremely rough terrain will cause problems.

Power sources:
Elementals are a good start. A fire elemental for steam power is good, though Water and Air elementals contained in suitable tubing (pneumatic / hydraulic systems) seems viable as well.
I seem to remember an Eberron debate about 'Heat Metal' on copper piping replacing nuclear power...

Weaponry:
Slightly modify a ballista, and you have a good method of throwing alchemical substances a fair distance. For a bigger 'punch', use smoke-powder projectiles.

banthesun
2010-06-07, 10:53 AM
If you're thinking something more human sized, clockpunk might be a good alternitive. Basicaly all the arms and legs can be controled by gears. The power source would have to be wound springs like in clocks, so either the pilot will have to be rewinding all the limbs all the time, or use a magical way of winding them like the spy bugs from His Dark Materials.

Clockwork is somewhat weaker than steampower, so slow movements are more likely. The advantage is it doesn't require a boiler, so it works well with smaller contraptions. A combination might be a good idea.

Another_Poet
2010-06-07, 11:22 AM
They've got mechanical power, and they've got steam pressure. It might be difficult, but it's certainly possible.

I thought of that, but the problem is getting those signals across moving, articulating joints. You can't run pipes through the knees to send signals to the ankles. Ands reliable soft hoses that would hold that kind of pressure didn't exist.

I also thought of using wires under tension to relay the signals but a similar problem attains. I wouldn't trust them across the moving joins as the size of the joint would change constantly, snapping the wires. You could have the wires trip cogs across the joint to trip the next set of wires beyond but I'm dubious. Seems prone to failure and could only send the most rudimentary signals, as there is limited space in the joint for all this.



Steampunk is based on the idea of highly advanced mechanical technology such as the above link, as though we never developed electricity or electronics or binary devices and everything in existence ran on mechanical energy and analog controls. Something like a steampunk style mech is mechanically possible, but realistically the amount of design, number and complexity of parts, and possibility for malfunction of those parts is far too high for any sort of development or widespread use.

I would say that even with the kind of technology you are proposing - or rather, especially with that kind of technology - it is still not possible at all. Although the parts to run advanced computer programs on mechanical energy and analog controls can be built, doing so with Victorian era materials and machining will make them summarily too heavy and large to be contained and held up by the machines they are capable of running. The result is a 10 story mecha pinned down under a 30+ story backpack of moving parts, completely unable to move even if its girders don't rend under the weight.

Your introduction of fantasy materials makes it viable, but part of the OPs question was wether is is really possible, and the answer to that part is no. Not using steam-era technology and machining, no matter how long you spend or how many moving parts you add.

Radar
2010-06-07, 12:07 PM
Your introduction of fantasy materials makes it viable, but part of the OPs question was wether is is really possible, and the answer to that part is no. Not using steam-era technology and machining, no matter how long you spend or how many moving parts you add.
I'd take it even further: even with our 21. century technology, we can't build any viable mech - the only prototype I've seen, was only able to plod at a speed lower then a walking person. It didn't even have enough power or balance to lift its legs any higher then just above the ground.

For other purposes, if some immensly durable and fairly light materials are a given, then nuclear-powered heater would give enough steam for all your needs. You would have to use water in a closed circuit obviously. Apart from that, it's uh... science! (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/index.php)

Another_Poet
2010-06-07, 12:11 PM
it's uh... science! (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/index.php)

+1 to you for linking something other than tvtropes.

Zeta Kai
2010-06-07, 12:29 PM
Well, the short answer is, no. Victorian-era steam technology cannot possibly power and drive a mecha with all of its coordinated motor movements, massive weight, etc. It is not possible with the limits of that technology.

However assuming you are going to run the game anyway, and just want some idea of the sort of technology that would go into it, here is my take on it.

Let's assume the Mecha is a 20 story tall human-shaped robot...

You, sir, are my hero. That was a great read.

Xuc Xac
2010-06-07, 12:51 PM
Could a steam engine realistically power something almost as heavy as a tank?

Are you kidding? An Abrams tank weighs around 63 tons. A late-model steam locomotive could haul 5000 tons at 45 mph. Steampower can be incredibly strong. The hard part is getting it to multitask. A train only has to go forward and backward. A mecha has a lot of joints to manipulate.

Radar
2010-06-07, 01:47 PM
Are you kidding? An Abrams tank weighs around 63 tons. A late-model steam locomotive could haul 5000 tons at 45 mph. Steampower can be incredibly strong. The hard part is getting it to multitask. A train only has to go forward and backward. A mecha has a lot of joints to manipulate.
The problem is: walking is highly inefficient. You have to use a lot of energy for otherwise redundant motions (lifting legs and actually keeping the whole thing from falling down - standing still can be quite exhausting in itself). Yes, a steam engine can pull 5000 tons... if it's on wheels (the most efficient mode of locomotion as we know) and on a more or less flat surface (note, that mountain trains are a lot shorter then the regular ones).

As for the controls for the whole thing: it occured to me, that wires are still a viable choice. Around the hinge-type joints they can be put in a semi-elastic iron plait (not a typo) armor (a similar solution to that seen in bikes). The rotating joints (if you want a rotating torso or a moving canon platform on a shoulder) can be solved with a detangler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detangler). Keep in mind, that the wires don't have to relay large forces - they are only needed to operate valves and such things; There are various possible mechanical force multipliers if need be.
That way, the whole steering can be centralised, which makes things a lot simplier.

Another_Poet
2010-06-07, 01:56 PM
You, sir, are my hero. That was a great read.

Yay for props! I feel valued.

Zen Master
2010-06-07, 02:13 PM
I figure it's worth noting that ....

While steampower cannot provide the power to weight ratio to drive a mech - nor can any other powersource. None known to current science that is.

So it's all good.

randomhero00
2010-06-07, 04:43 PM
This thread rules, especially your big post 'Another_Poet'. Thank you all for your contributions, I had no idea it'd grow to such awesomeness.

My original idea was to have an almost purely mechanical/realistic version, hence my limit on magic for it. Anyways, I'm still pondering and am really inspired now but to make it more realistic (I know I don't have to but I want to) am thinking of making it on 6 legs, more like 30-40 feet tall with a pilot and a gunner, and have a fire elemental powering a closed circuit hydraulic system of locomotion. Is that a lot more reasonable do you think? Also, (I'm rather confused between steam power and hydraulics) would steam be coming out of said mecha? Smoke? Would it require new water after every mission? How well could something like that turn? Not well I'm guessing. Now the main problem is figuring out a reason on why it should have legs over wheels or treads...I don't like inconsistencies.

Jeff the Green
2010-06-07, 04:59 PM
Is that a lot more reasonable do you think?
Definitely, though I'd think more than two people would make sense. You'd probably want more than one weapon and definitely at least a copilot.


Also, (I'm rather confused between steam power and hydraulics) would steam be coming out of said mecha? Smoke?

Steam power is just anything being driven by steam. Hydraulics is the transfer of force by compressing a liquid (i.e. push a piston, water moves through a pipe, which pushes on another piston). What you probably want is a boiler pumping steam onto pistons which then transfers the force through hydraulics.

Steam would definitely be coming out; there needs to be a way to vent the excess pressure. If you've got a fire elemental boiling the water I doubt there'd be smoke. If there's a fire, though, you're going to have a lot of it.


Would it require new water after every mission? How well could something like that turn?

You'd need a lot of water. Each pump of the pistons releases some steam, so it'd need to be replenished.

I think it might have a hard time turning. It would be far easier to make it radially symmetric (think a starfish) and able to move in any direction and just have the gunner turrets rotate.


Now the main problem is figuring out a reason on why it should have legs over wheels or treads...I don't like inconsistencies.

Legs are good for one thing: uneven terrain. You can step over rocks and such, but it's much harder to roll over them.

Another_Poet
2010-06-07, 06:56 PM
Since you are going with a magic/steam hybrid, I would suggest having a continuous Create Water effect inside the boiler so that you don't need to worry about adding water to it. Just conjure the water from nowhere.

If this were Iron Kingdoms I would say just add a Create Water rune plate and hook up an arcane turbine to your boiler so the rune plate is always charged... and if none of that makes any sense to you, then you haven't read the best campaign setting in 3.0/3.5 D&D. See the sewer link in my sig for the Iron Kingdoms forums.

lightningcat
2010-06-07, 07:47 PM
Look up Goodman Games' "Dragonmech" series of books. They've got all sorts of different kinds of mechs, and details on how they work.

+1 to Dragonmech. Not what I thought it was going to be, but really interesting.
Also, the d20 Mecha book from Gaurdians of Order (if you can find it), or the Mecha Compedium (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/index.php?cPath=73_133) from Dream Pod 9. They have the same rules, but the dp9 book has example campaigns and mechs, including a steampunk setting and my personal favorites, the golemsuits.

Mark Hall
2010-06-07, 09:38 PM
My suggestion would be to look at the Apparatus of Kwalish and go from there. While ostensibly "magical", it's always felt pretty steampunky (Brewster) to me.

Apparatus of Kwalish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#apparatusoftheCrab)

panaikhan
2010-06-10, 08:00 AM
Now the main problem is figuring out a reason on why it should have legs over wheels or treads...I don't like inconsistencies.

Two words. "Stomp Attack"
Rather than crushing everything in it's path, it could be selective - leave the building standing while turning the annoying militia into burgers.
Terrain may play a large part too. If the legs/claws are strong enough, climbing cliffs becomes doable, if awkward.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-06-10, 08:35 AM
If you have d20 future, the wizards site has rules for converting d20 modern mecha to D&D, with an example. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20061020a