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Poppatomus
2010-06-09, 10:32 AM
I would like to introduce a feat like the following into the game as a means of making the fighter more flexible, and as a first step to making the class more powerful. I was hoping to get opinions on A) the approach it represents and B) how to balance it from the wise men and women of the board. Apologies if this idea has appeared elsewhere.

Trained Feat
Req: More levels of fighter than any other class

You gain the ability to prepare a feat the way a caster prepares a spell. Every morning you spend 30 minutes in intensive training in order to gain access to one feat from the fighter bonus feat list for the remainder of the day. You may choose a new feat every day during training, or choose to relearn the same feat as the previous day. To gain the benefits of the feat, you must meet all its prerequisites as normal.

Spending more than 30 minutes training does not give you access to more feats. On days where you are unable to spend time training, you gain no benefit from trained feat.

This feat may be selected more than once. For every time it is selected you are allowed to choose an additional feat during the training period. Regardless of how many feats are being trained, training always takes 30 minutes.

A trained feat can not be used to meet the prerequisite for a normal feat. However, if you have taken trained feat more than once, you may use a trained feat as a prerequisite for another trained feat. (for instance, using trained feat to gain the benefits of improved unarmed strike would allow you to use a second instance of trained feat to gain the benefit of deflect arrows.)

A fighter may select trained feat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Trained Feat
Req: trained feat, Fighter level 6+
If you have used trained feat to gain the benefit of the same feat for three consecutive days, you may continue to gain the benefit of that feat for an additional day, even if you do not specifically train in that feat. This applies to all feats that have been trained for three consecutive days. You must still train that day, but you may train other feats instead. You must still meet all prerequisites of the feat to gain its effects.

Special
A fighter may select Improved trained feat as one of his fighter bonus feats. A fighter may not use trained feat to gain the benefits of Improved trained feat.

Master Trainer
Req: trained feat, Fighter level 8+, Cha 12+
You may allow an ally to train with you. If they join you for your 30 minute daily training, they may gain the effect of one feat of your choice, for every point of Cha bonus you have, up to the number of trained feats you gain that day. The effect is exactly as if they had access to trained feat, but does not require them to have fighter levels. They must still meet any prerequisites normally required for a feat to gain its benefits with the exception of minimum BAB requirements, which they may ignore so long as you meet them.

You may provide this benefit to a single ally, or to a number of allies whose total HD does not exceed double your hit dice.

Special
A fighter may select Master Trainer as one of his fighter bonus feats. A fighter may not use trained feat to gain the benefits of Master Trainer.

Strenuous Training
Req: Improved trained feat, Con 16+


During your daily training, you may choose to take up to four points of temporary Con damage. For every point of Con Damage taken in this way, you may train in an additional feat for that day. You may not use this ability to drop your Con below the amount required to use this ability.

If you attempt to use this ability two days in a row or more, you must make a Con check at the conclusion of your training with a DC equal to 12+the number of consecutive days you have used strenuous training. Failure means the character is fatigued and does not gain the benefit of any additional feats gained through strenuous training.


Muscle Memory
Req: Trained Feat, INT or WIS 11+
For a single round you may gain the benefit of any feat gained through trained feat the previous day, even if you did not train in that feat today. You gain the benefits of muscle memory even on days you are unable to train, but it does not allow you to gain the benefit of feats you may have had access to as a result of improved trained feat.

Muscle memory can be used 1/per day for every three levels of fighter the character has taken. The ability can be activated at the start of any round, or during any round as an immediate action.

A fighter may select Muscle Memory as one of his fighter bonus feats. A fighter may not use trained feat to gain the benefits of Muscle Memory.



Thank you for your time.

(considered titling this post Djinn bait, but chickened out.)

original wording:


Trained Feat
Req: More levels of fighter than any other class

Every day, you may choose a feat from the fighter bonus feat list and gain the benefits of that feat. In order to choose a feat, you must meet all prerequisites of that feat as normal. You must also spend 30 minutes training in order to gain access to the feat. You may choose different feats every day, or keep the same feats, but you must spend time training in order to gain the benefits, even if you had those benefits the day before.

Trained feat can be taken more than once. For every time the feat is taken, you may choose an additional feat per day to learn. Trained feats can serve as prerequisites for other feats. However, a trained feat being used as a prerequisite and a feat that depends on it cannot be unlearned and replaced on the same day. (for instance, using trained feat to gain the benefits of improved unarmed strike would allow you to use a second instance of trained feat to gain the benefit of deflect arrows. However, if you wanted to take two other feats you would need to first retrain deflect arrows and the next day, or later, replace improved unarmed strike)

Improved Trained Feat
Req: trained feat
You may use trained feat to gain the benefits of feats not on the fighter bonus feat list. You must still meet all the requirements for that feat as normal and you can not gain the benefits of metamagic feats, item creation feats, or any feat whose effect is dependent on the activity of another creature (for example: leadership, improved familiar)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-09, 11:12 AM
(considered titling this post Djinn bait, but chickened out.)

How can I resist? :smallbiggrin:

Although I'm curious as to why it would specifically be Djinn bait...:smallconfused:

Anyway, some thoughts.

Trained Feat: If I have multiple Trained Feats, do I still only take 30 minutes to retrain all of them? I think that should be the case. Also, a Wizard can completely change his spell selection each morning based on the challenges he predicts...why limit the Fighter? Perhaps rolling this into a new Fighter mechanic where you have something like a spellbook of Feats, and can choose a certain number of them per day?

Improved Trained Feat: Honestly, this doesn't seem like a Fighter feat. I'd give something like this to the Bard, or the Rogue, but probably not to the Fighter. Also, feats that interact with feats that serve only to become other feats (...wow) get confusing. Even Trained Feat (taking a feat that becomes new feats?) is awkwardly worded.

This has the potential to roll into an interesting Fighter fix though...if you can make Feats scale as well as spells (or at least close), and offer variety amongst them, you might be able to actually build a tier 2 or 3 Fighter.

Poppatomus
2010-06-09, 10:49 PM
Djinn bait because this topic really seems to be in your wheelhouse. No offense intended.

to respond:

Agree on it only taking 30 minutes regardless of how many. The eventual idea is to use this mechanism to improve the fighter class, but I wanted to see how/if it would work as a standalone feat first, figuring it would be simpler.

Improved trained is meant to still be for the fighter, though i see your point on it being less battle centric. I more than see your point on the language being inelegant. I will rewrite for clarity shortly, and will take a shot at updating improved to make it more fighter centric.

thanks for taking the time to respond.

Zombieboots
2010-06-09, 11:42 PM
Neat idea, but you can gain all the benefits and be a warblade instead of a fighter since they counts as a fighter - 2. -And a chameleon is able to do this anyway.

I've thought of pretty much the exact same "addition" to the fighter class before so ofcourse I think it's a good idea. :smallsmile: but why is everyone always set on using "Feat" related class features to fix the fighter? What they really need is some sort of class feature that progresses as a fighter gains levels.

Poppatomus
2010-06-09, 11:55 PM
Not familiar with a chameleon. I figured that others would have thought of this idea, seemed to obvious for that not to be the case. Part of the reason I posted it was to see how others had already refined the concept.

The reason I think most people seek to make some kind of feat fix is because it is what makes the fighter unique. Mastery of martial training fits the fluff of the fighter well. Also, as Djinn mentioned in another thread, part of what the fighter needs is the ability to allow those seeking to play a martial character the versatility to play any flavor of martial character equally well. Fixing feats, if it can be done, is a quick way to get there without needing to recreate the whole system from scratch.

That said, an element of this approach, more now given the revised feats above, is to provide an avenue for feats to "progress" more naturally as the fighter gains levels. now feat slots are what count, rather than what feat you chose 10 levels prior. Improved and muscle memory further multiply this effect, allowing you to stack feats for big battles/encounters if you have time to prepare. Probably not enough to up the class a tier, but I think the approach merits consideration, especially if combined with some other benefit.

Waargh!
2010-06-10, 12:08 AM
That is why they are PrC. The fighter is excellent for multi-classing and gaining some extra feats. It also is kind of a non-flavored class. Everybody fights, everybody is a fighter. If you are a rogue 3/fighter 2, you are boosting your fighting skills (higher BAB, two extra feats) in exchange for skills points, sneak attack dmg, slower progression etc etc. If you "fix the fighter" you will take away this choice. If you want a fix, it is better to make another base class. An Archer, a Swordsman or anything else.

Trained Feat: what would be the flavor of such a thing? It makes no sense obtaining a feat ("woow, you got so good swinging that sword") and then changing it the other day. Game-wise is fine, and you can retrain in 4e, but it just makes no sense.

The real fix of a fighter is to present him in the PHB as a "unique class that boosts your fighting skills". Or something similar, recommending the players to "use it for multi-classing, though it can function alone as well".

The second real fix is making fighter feats progress with fighter class levels. For example:
Weapon Specialization
Deal +2 dmg/4 levels of fighter.
(+4 on 8, +6 on 12, +10 on 16, +12 on 20)

By real fixes I mean fixes with the minimum amount of changes, without making any fundamental change.

Poppatomus
2010-06-10, 12:35 AM
Waargh!,

I think you and I approach the fighter class differently. I see it as intended to be a master mundane warrior, with the ability to encompass multiple specializations within a single class. This is much like a wizard in the magical world, who has less "flavor" in exchange for a greater number of possible outcomes for the character. I think that if fighter is relegated to being just a dip class the game loses a certain balance. I don't think your approach to the class is wrong, and given its current state I think its closer to correct than mine, but I don't think it has to be. (although, the more i add to the top thread, the more it looks like a PrC, rather than more options for a generic fighter)

The flavor justification I imagine would be something like this: Fighters are meant to be those with intense training. It isn't always formal training, it could just as easily be the result of a thousand brawls as years spent at the royal jousting academy, but they are meant to start as experts in things martial. (or such is my understanding).

The introductions of these feats reflects that back story. It is not that you learn to swing a sword one day and forget how the next. It's that you've had some training in swinging a sword a certain way, but your usually too rusty at it to do it to combat effectiveness. Unlike a standard feat, which you know so well you never have to practice it again, these feats aren't quite as well learned, but if you spend time focusing and going through the forms, you can do it for a short period, at least until you focus on something else or stop practicing.

The training represents taking the time to practice and get back into the "swing" of things. It lasts a short while not because you forget, but because you're out of practice. I'll grant this fluff would fit better if the effect lasted a week, or a month, but I think it can still work for a day, which seems more reasonable in terms of game play mechanics. I'd also be open to some kind of attached penalty, but it's tough to come up with a general penalty that can apply to all feats on the list.

Can't argue with the level scaling comment at all.

Mogrii
2010-06-10, 10:05 AM
The real fix of a fighter is to present him in the PHB as a "unique class that boosts your fighting skills". Or something similar, recommending the players to "use it for multi-classing, though it can function alone as well".

The second real fix is making fighter feats progress with fighter class levels. For example:
Weapon Specialization
Deal +2 dmg/4 levels of fighter.
(+4 on 8, +6 on 12, +10 on 16, +12 on 20)

By real fixes I mean fixes with the minimum amount of changes, without making any fundamental change.

I totally agree with you there to the degree that I've been doing something like that from a year now. I included a 'Fighter Benefit' in every fighter bonus feat that is basically a upgraded benefit based on total fighter levels (true fighter levels, no 'your level -2' thing the warblade has going on). This makes the Fighter a sweet combatant instead of just a chump with a sword.
On the other hand, it also requires a bit of fine tunning, a lot of experience and some playtesting. It's not about to ubber the fighter, just to make him as useful to the party as the other melee classes.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-10, 11:48 AM
The problem is that even scaling feats won't cut it. Really, a viable Fighter feat should have about 1/2-2/3 the power of a Wizard spell of the same level.

Take 15th level, for example. Wizards get spells like Iron Body and Irrestible Dance, so a proper Fighter fix might involve feats like this...

Heroic Fortitude (General, Fighter)
Prerequisites: Character level 15th, Constitution 18, Base Attack Bonus +15
Benefit: You gain Damage Reduction 5/adamantine, which increases to 10/adamantine against attacks you retain your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against. You gain immunity to disease, physical ability score damage, dazing, stunning, and critical hits.


Staggering Blow (General, Fighter)
Prerequisites: Character level 15th, Strength 18, Base Attack Bonus +15, Power Attack
Benefit: As a standard action, you may unleash a terrible blow. Make a single melee attack against an adjacent foe. If the attack lands, the target takes double the normal damage and is staggered for 1d4+1 rounds. At the beginning of each round, roll a d%. On a roll of 1-50, the target is stunned instead of staggered for that round. Once you have used this power, you may not use it again for 5 rounds.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-10, 01:01 PM
I'd rephrase Heroic Fortitude to "You gain Damage Reduction 10/adamantine, which drops to DR 5/adamantine when you are denied your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class," but otherwise those look good, Djinn.

jiriku
2010-06-10, 01:51 PM
@ Djinn: *Yoink.* You got any more where those came from?

@ Poppa: I'd say your concept is good, but doesn't go far enough. consider instead:


Martial Training: Once per day, a fighter can engage in one hour of weapons drill and martial practice to retrain any or all of his fighter bonus feats.
This is essentially the same deal that every prepared caster gets. Why shouldn't the fighter get it as well?

Mogrii
2010-06-10, 02:07 PM
Martial Training: Once per day, a fighter can engage in one hour of weapons drill and martial practice to retrain any or all of his fighter bonus feats.
This is essentially the same deal that every prepared caster gets. Why shouldn't the fighter get it as well?

Because its not about making them the same, just about increasing the figher power level a Tier or two.
You keep on changing the way the classes function to match them, you'll end up with 4th edition.

AsuroftheStair
2010-06-10, 02:29 PM
As far as having this feat fix the class, couldn't it break the reality of the story in two? I just see a fighter taking only this feat, and just training himself with whatever feats he desires. This could make it more enjoyable for the player, but my sense of reality gets bent thinking about how person who was a spike-chain fighter one day could become an archer the next.

As far as fixing the fighter in other ways, I'm really intrigued with Djinn's idea of making feats similar to spells - it's a revolutionary approach which has a lot of potential.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-10, 02:42 PM
As far as having this feat fix the class, couldn't it break the reality of the story in two? I just see a fighter taking only this feat, and just training himself with whatever feats he desires. This could make it more enjoyable for the player, but my sense of reality gets bent thinking about how person who was a spike-chain fighter one day could become an archer the next.

Don't think of it as a fighter suddenly having different skills, think of it as the fighter already having lots of different skill sets he can apply to a different situation. Out of character, when a spiked chain fighter's opponent takes to the air, he pulls out a bow and spends a turn retraining to archery-based feats; in character, when his opponent takes to the air, he pulls out a bow, limbers up his arms, stretches out any muscles sore from using a spiked chain, checks the pull of his bow, and nocks an arrow.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-10, 02:56 PM
As far as fixing the fighter in other ways, I'm really intrigued with Djinn's idea of making feats similar to spells - it's a revolutionary approach which has a lot of potential.

Why thanks!

I recently (i.e. today) envisioned the Fighter as the "Wizard of Feats." By which I mean that he gets "levels" of feats, and can select a certain number of them to be active by spending, say, 10 minutes warming up and getting his focus. Perhaps he has a Combat Focus mechanic, similar to the Psionic Focus, that allows him to use some of his triggered abilities.

Thoughts? Ideas? I'm ready to run with this, and deliver up a new and unique Fighter fix...

AsuroftheStair
2010-06-10, 08:11 PM
Don't think of it as a fighter suddenly having different skills, think of it as the fighter already having lots of different skill sets he can apply to a different situation.

I imagine the fighter as dedicating his whole existence to learning these feats, finding a particular passion or knack and sticking with it. Thus in my mind there's a difference between having some background in a lot of different areas (dipping into all of them, thus getting some skill but not as much in any particular style as someone who dedicates his life to it) and being able to be a god in any style one chooses (as constantly picking Trained Feat would allow).

In addition, power is the reason that the fighter lags behind other classes, and any one of the builds possible with the current feat selection is still less powerful than any spellcaster. But the power of the fighter is that he gets more feats than anyone else. Thus I'd suggest that people create crazy feats, somewhat based on spells, which require dozens of other feats to get and warp the rules to allow the fighter to be epic. This sparked my ideas:


Really, a viable Fighter feat should have about 1/2-2/3 the power of a Wizard spell of the same level.


If you create feats based on this rubric, then the fighter's power could be much more exciting and cinematic then getting some static bonuses. For instance:

Extinguish the Candle
Prerequisites: Improved Initiative, BAB +3 or Higher
Benefit: If an opponent is at -1 HP or below, the fighter can deliver a coupe-de-grace as a standard instead of a full-round action. If the fighter chooses to do so, the opponent doubles his fortitude save before rolling. If the fighter is in the Zone, he may also use this feat against opponents which are unaware of him and his character level - 4 or below.

This is based on Death Knell. Sure, it doesn't give the fighter any bonuses, and the opponent gets a bonus but it's a guaranteed kill and the fighter still gets to move during his action. If that's even underpowered, then the feat could give the fighter a morale bonus for a number of rounds equal to the difference between his levels and the slain opponent's CR.

Other possible sources of inspiration:

Combat Focus (a good idea Djinn!), which is expended to execute that one, monstrously epic maneuver
the Zone: an alternate state similar to rage or frenzy, in this state the fighter would unlock his greatest potential
Style Feats from the CW. They gave options, but the options weren't epic enough for anyone to give them a second look

Poppatomus
2010-06-11, 08:58 AM
Why thanks!

I recently (i.e. today) envisioned the Fighter as the "Wizard of Feats." By which I mean that he gets "levels" of feats, and can select a certain number of them to be active by spending, say, 10 minutes warming up and getting his focus. Perhaps he has a Combat Focus mechanic, similar to the Psionic Focus, that allows him to use some of his triggered abilities.

Thoughts? Ideas? I'm ready to run with this, and deliver up a new and unique Fighter fix...

I think it's a good idea, but I am wary of making it exactly like a wizard. part of the idea here is to leave some of the initial system intact, to allow a fighter that is going to be a bow fighter to just take point blank shot so he doesn't have to train every day, but still provide the flexibility that he isn't locked in to every feat he takes.

I think that creating higher level feats is a great idea, and allowing more of a progression, but I do think that making it identical to the wizard mechanic, would be less than the ideal solution.

@Asur,

Remember, though, that there is a cost here. A fighter that takes a normal feat always has access to it, a fighter with trained feats that doesn't have a chance to train loses access to those feats until he can train again. (and if he wants to get around that, he needs to burn feat slots.)

I don't think that it's as fluff-breaking as you say. It is a different type of fighter that takes these feats, but I don't think it's not a fighter. I am open to ways of fixing this fluff issue, but none of the solution I can think of seem to work:

longer interval between training: (say train a week to get a new feat, and during that week, if you won't already have that feat, you lose access to a "feat slot" of your choice) This makes the training element seem more realistic, but also makes the character much less versatile.

pre-chosen "trained feats": Say that when you choose trained feat you select some number of feats (3-6) that can be subbed in to that slot. Makes you a sorcerer of feats, rather than a cleric of feats, but again limits effectiveness and versatility to the player. Would work well in Djinn's level oriented feat system though.

Weaker "trained feats": Makes the feat slightly less valuable in exchange for taking it this way. For example, over run might give you a +3 bonus to the check rather than the full +4. The issue is feats are already too weak, and it is hard to think of a general way of weakening all feats, since their effects are so varied. One way to do it might be to have you always be at a disadvantage to a "regular feat" fighter when confronting them directly, but that is also tough to establish a general rule for.

Zombieboots
2010-06-11, 10:26 AM
Take 15th level, for example. Wizards get spells like Iron Body and Irrestible Dance, so a proper Fighter fix might involve feats like this...

Heroic Fortitude (General, Fighter)
Prerequisites: Character level 15th, Constitution 18, Base Attack Bonus +15
Benefit: You gain Damage Reduction 5/adamantine, which increases to 10/adamantine against attacks you retain your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against. You gain immunity to disease, physical ability score damage, dazing, stunning, and critical hits...
Treat fighter feats like spells. Alright I think I can get behind that. But lets take your example here:
The Sor/Wiz at both can learn Stone skins at level 9 then Iron Body at level 15.
The Fighter could also take two feats which simulate both spells at 9 & 15.
The problem with that is the Sor/Wiz can switch out or never prepare Stoneskin again and just use Ironbody where as the fighter now stuck with one a useless(outdated) feat.

No two ways you could fix that would to allow a fighter to retain one of his feats everytime he gains a fighter bonus feat (Similiar to a Sorc), or as previously mentioned have the feats improve depending on his fighter level... or maybe both?

Also a "Combat Focus" like Psionic Focus there is exactly that in the Players Handbook II. Called... well "Combat Focus"
Combat Focus, Stability, Defense, Vigor, Awareness, Strike.

I think the idea was great at the time and would have gone along way if WotC continued with the idea... but they didn't, so the feat chain just died.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-11, 11:00 AM
No two ways you could fix that would to allow a fighter to retain one of his feats everytime he gains a fighter bonus feat (Similiar to a Sorc), or as previously mentioned have the feats improve depending on his fighter level... or maybe both?
.

Retraining is probably the best approach. As an added bonus, that allows players to experiment with new styles.

And Poppatomus? A Fighter who doesn't take the time to retrain his feats retains all his previously trained feats. He doesn't require a Wizard-like "all or nothing" affair. Further, he can probably retrain a small number of feats (not sure of the exact numer) as a move, standard, or full-round action.

AsuroftheStair
2010-06-13, 01:33 AM
@Poppatomus,
I agree that there are specific pasts which work on this (like a supreme warrior who has forgotten his past), but if this is going to be a be-all-end-all fix then that won't cut it. It needs to work for any background, and I don't think that most sorts of fighters are trained in everything as this feat would imply. However, this is a feat which gives the player a lot more power, so it could be a feat which we add to the stockpile of feats to make fighters truly epic.

As far as being able to prepare their feats, the trained fighter will be able to prepare in any adventure that spellcasters can prepare their spells by taking half the time. Thus unless the DM wants to consistently milk the spellcasters out of every spell they can cast in that day or he does not allow them to prepare, a fighter will always have time to prepare the trained feat.

I do like the idea of limiting the feat in some way. Out of your suggestions I like the idea of defining what feats he could prepare, since that would actually reflect the character's background. If supreme versatility is still what people want (which I still say isn't the best direction), you could play on the fact that he has to bring the techniques into his short-term memory and say that if he's subjected to an effect that requires a will save he has to make an additional save or loose some number of his prepared feats. DC 10 + 2*(number of prepared feats)?

@Zombieboots,
I agree that the Stoneskin/Ironskin situation is a problem, and I like both of your suggestions. I also agree with Djinn that retraining would make the most simple sense, so that's a good way to go. If that doesn't seem satisfying, you could also feats based on the Stoneskin feat could be slightly more powerful to compensate for the Stoneskin feat becoming less useful.

I'll start looking at that Combat Focus chain and see what we can get from them.

@Djinn,
You don't retain feats if you don't retrain them or have the improved training feat, so it does become an issue at basic levels. However, as I said, unless the DM decides to run adventures so no one has time to prepare the trained fighter will always have time to prepare.
Muscle Memory allows for retraining on the fly, giving you the benefits of a feat you had trained in the previous day as an immediate action.

One could actually make a class based on the training concept if we think of more training ideas (like taking ability point drain for even more feats, having 1/day a "training bonus" to a save or attack, & there may be others that I think of later).

So, do people think that some manifestation of the Trained Feat, or maybe this new class, would be the fighter's solution, or should we explore other routes?