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View Full Version : What if the Fighter did have (Su) feats ?



nonsi
2010-06-11, 04:14 AM
On one hand, there are plenty of campaigns out there where a fighter (or fighter-fix) gets all the buffing s/he needs from allies and equipment.
On the other, there's the Mage-Slayer feats and its evolutions:
- Pierce Magical Concealment
- Pierce Magical Protection.
And someone out there might actually like the idea of a basically mundane character that by combining unequalles martial insight with enough magical understanding, could gain access to martial-oriented magical effects.

Therefore, it doesn't sound too unreasonable to me that given enough ranks in Spellcraft and enough class-levels, the 2 feats mentioned above could be become foundation stones for magic-oriented martial prowess - including elemental damage, Ghousttouch, dispelling etc.


For now, given I don't have anything formulated yet, this OP will serve as a teaser and I would like to see what inspiration people might get given the above.


So start throwing them ideas and let's see what we come up with.

Yora
2010-06-11, 04:21 AM
As much as I hate it when other people tell me this: But I think the Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) is meant to be exactly this character.

Eldan
2010-06-11, 04:22 AM
Basically? A lot of people don't want this. They want the Fighter to be a martial hero, using his weapons and brawn to fight wizards, demons and dragons, not flaming swords.

And yes, the Swordsage does about that.

I'd say, if players want that, more power to them, make it an option.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-11, 06:10 AM
I feel that elemental damage and the like aren't the Fighter's department. I wholly support giving him Ex abilities that border on Su though...leaping dozens of feats, throwing his greatsword half a mile to impale and bring down that pesky flying wizard, cleaving through a wall...that wort of thing.

Ashtagon
2010-06-11, 06:31 AM
Bear in mind that the rules tag "supernatural" on an ability simply means it dies in an anti-magic field. With that in mind, a fighter can quite easily have "supernatural" abilities.

In the broader definition of the word supernatural though, I think the only such abilities fighters should have are either to dispel or negate magic, and only in limited ways. The other method is to enhance the weapon they are using with a limited selection of "magical" powers that are non-showy.

nonsi
2010-06-11, 07:11 AM
Bear in mind that the rules tag "supernatural" on an ability simply means it dies in an anti-magic field. With that in mind, a fighter can quite easily have "supernatural" abilities.

In the broader definition of the word supernatural though, I think the only such abilities fighters should have are either to dispel or negate magic, and only in limited ways. The other method is to enhance the weapon they are using with a limited selection of "magical" powers that are non-showy.

What about dealing with incorporeal opponents?
I mean, a level-15 core fighter is useless without magical gear when facing something sub-par such as a Shadow.
Also, in a campaign without force-related HRs, not having an option to deal with such effects leave the fighter totally out of the equasion.

In general, the idea is not to possess such effects all the time, but several times per day/encounter, in the spirit of "the show must go on.
Other issues such as DR and range are still manageable via mundane means.



Anyway, let's start talking mechanics.

Eldan
2010-06-11, 07:18 AM
I wouldn't make them (su) specifically. Supernatural, in the actual sense of the word, by all means.
But supernatural means, as has been said above, that it dies in an antimagic field, while extraordinary means it doesn't. There's a lot of unnatural and physics-defying stuff already out there which is labeled as (ex), but somehow, I can't see a fighter hindered by an AMF beyond losing some of his equipment functions.

Just give them something (ex) instead. Name it, say Aura Strike. A special attack able to hit incorporeal creatures. Done. The explanation can then be any number of fantasy-babble (the equivalent of technobabble in SciFi.)

nonsi
2010-06-11, 07:19 AM
I feel that elemental damage and the like aren't the Fighter's department.

Agreed.



I wholly support giving him Ex abilities that border on Su though...

Sure, but they thould be thematically sound.



leaping dozens of feats

Too Monk-ish



throwing his greatsword half a mile to impale and bring down that pesky flying wizard.

Too weeaboo and not really necessary, provided a bow is available.



cleaving through a wall...that wort of thing.

Sort of large-scale Baleful Utterrance?
Melike :)

Eldan
2010-06-11, 07:20 AM
Well, he can already sort of do that with Power attack and an adamantine weapon. Even without it, given enough power attack. A special attack would just help.

Ashtagon
2010-06-11, 07:23 AM
What about dealing with incorporeal opponents?
I mean, a level-15 core fighter is useless without magical gear when facing something sub-par such as a Shadow.

Take his spellbook away, and a level 15 wizard is too :shrug:

If we suppose a fighter's "supernatural" powers as I outlined, one way he could enhance his weapon is with the ghost-touch property, which would let him deal quite easily with that shadow.

Xuc Xac
2010-06-11, 10:09 AM
I don't see any problem with letting a fighter have magic. Why shouldn't he face supernatural foes through supernatural means? I can't think of any real world fighters who wouldn't have turned to magic for help in fighting a supernatural foe.

In Indonesia, they'd just be sure to fight with a kris which is believed to be supernatural by its very nature (ironically). In Finland, they'd fight with an antique blade so old that the smith who made it is dead: he put part of his spirit in the blade while forging it and now the rest of his spirit is in the afterlife, so that antique blade is a direct conduit to the spirit world. Sounds like something that would hit incorporeal creatures, no problem.

Other cultures would ask a priest for advice. The priest or shaman would either perform some kind of blessing on the fighter (a "buff"), give him some sort of trick to exploit against his foe ("It's a river spirit, so you can fight it as long as you hold a gulp of river water in your mouth" or "You can fight the ghost as long as you hold dust from its grave in your hand" or "Its attacks against you will be deflected if you wear your clothing inside out"), or send him on a side quest to gather the ingredients for a ritual, potion, or magic charm that will buff him.

"Supernatural abilities" doesn't have to mean "casting spells". It could also mean following the superstitions and taboos that actually work in a world where magic is real.

Poppatomus
2010-06-11, 10:11 AM
agree with Xuc and ashtagon. There is a difference between being weak and having weaknesses.

Ashtagon
2010-06-11, 10:14 AM
I don't see any problem with letting a fighter have magic. Why shouldn't he face supernatural foes through supernatural means? I can't think of any real world fighters who wouldn't have turned to magic for help in fighting a supernatural foe.

In Indonesia, they'd just be sure to fight with a kris which is believed to be supernatural by its very nature (ironically). In Finland, they'd fight with an antique blade so old that the smith who made it is dead: he put part of his spirit in the blade while forging it and now the rest of his spirit is in the afterlife, so that antique blade is a direct conduit to the spirit world. Sounds like something that would hit incorporeal creatures, no problem.


Both of these in D&D are represented by giving him a magic item. It's an ability inherent to the item, not the fighter.



Other cultures would ask a priest for advice. The priest or shaman would either perform some kind of blessing on the fighter (a "buff"), give him some sort of trick to exploit against his foe ("It's a river spirit, so you can fight it as long as you hold a gulp of river water in your mouth" or "You can fight the ghost as long as you hold dust from its grave in your hand" or "Its attacks against you will be deflected if you wear your clothing inside out"), or send him on a side quest to gather the ingredients for a ritual, potion, or magic charm that will buff him.


This in D&D are represented by having a cleric cast a spell on him. It's an ability inherent to the cleric, not the fighter.

Xuc Xac
2010-06-11, 10:21 AM
Doing 1d8 damage is an ability inherent to his longsword, but we still give the fighter all the credit for dishing that damage out.

jiriku
2010-06-11, 10:57 AM
Combine the two. Create gear-dependent feats.

For example:

DUST OF THE DEAD [Fighter, General]
You have learned an ancient battle ritual that allows you to strike true against ghosts by holding a handful of grave dust in your hand and reciting a long-forgotten war chant as you fight.

Prerequisites: Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Martial Lore 8 ranks or fighter level 4

Benefits: So long as you hold a handful of grave dust in your off hand and recite the chant you learned, your attacks ignore the miss chance creatures receive for being incorporeal. You cannot hold anything else in your off hand while using this ability, and if you must be able to hear yourself chanting, so it will not work if you are magically silenced or deafened.

Advancement: If you also have Spellcraft 6 ranks and either Martial Lore 12 ranks or fighter level 6, you can add cold iron shavings or silver dust to the grave dust in your hand, and your weapon will damage incorporeal creatures (only) as if it was of the appropriate type.

If you also have Spellcraft 9 ranks and either Martial Lore 18 ranks or fighter level 11, you can have the dust blessed by a cleric of a lawful, chaotic, good, or evil deity, and your weapon will damage incorporeal creatures (only) as if it was aligned appropriately.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-11, 11:02 AM
Too Monk-ish

Your opinion, of course. Providing it as a feat option isn't necessarily a bad idea, as others (like myself) might disagree. Personally, I think the Monk should really be rolled into the Fighter...


Too weeaboo and not really necessary, provided a bow is available.

See above.


Sort of large-scale Baleful Utterrance?
Melike :)

Huzzah! :smallbiggrin:

Ashtagon
2010-06-11, 11:17 AM
Combine the two. Create gear-dependent feats.

For example:

DUST OF THE DEAD [Fighter, General]
You have learned an ancient battle ritual that allows you to strike true against ghosts by holding a handful of grave dust in your hand and reciting a long-forgotten war chant as you fight.

Prerequisites: Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Spellcraft 4 ranks, Martial Lore 8 ranks or fighter level 4

Benefits: So long as you hold a handful of grave dust in your off hand and recite the chant you learned, your attacks ignore the miss chance creatures receive for being incorporeal. You cannot hold anything else in your off hand while using this ability, and if you must be able to hear yourself chanting, so it will not work if you are magically silenced or deafened.

Advancement: If you also have Spellcraft 6 ranks and either Martial Lore 12 ranks or fighter level 6, you can add cold iron shavings or silver dust to the grave dust in your hand, and your weapon will damage incorporeal creatures (only) as if it was of the appropriate type.

If you also have Spellcraft 9 ranks and either Martial Lore 18 ranks or fighter level 11, you can have the dust blessed by a cleric of a lawful, chaotic, good, or evil deity, and your weapon will damage incorporeal creatures (only) as if it was aligned appropriately.

This looks good, but somehow I feel something like this works better as part of a story arc to be discovered through role-playing. A mere feat just reduces something this interesting to its blandest possibel form.

Glimbur
2010-06-11, 11:21 AM
...leaping dozens of feats...

Are you suggesting letting them take feats without the pre-reqs? This would make Spring Attack and Greater Weapon Specialization and Whirlwind Attack better.

Or that was a typo.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-11, 11:26 AM
Are you suggesting letting them take feats without the pre-reqs? This would make Spring Attack and Greater Weapon Specialization and Whirlwind Attack better.

Or that was a typo.

That was indeed a typo. But I'd do this: provided a Fighter has the required feats, he can use their improved versions, even if he doesn't have the base feat. While something like the fictionary Improved Power Attack (say, +1 extra damage for each -1 penalty) would reference Power Attack, and thus require it, something like Cleave would not reference Power Attack, and thus could be used without having Power Attack active.