Writing up Muad'Dib?

[MageSparrowhawk]

I'm going to be joining a 3.5 (3.X) 10th level Gestalt game in the near future, and have been weighing my options on what to build. While in a library, an idea struck me.

How would you best convert Paul Atreides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Atreides) into a D&D character? In addition, would it be reasonable/possible to play some kind of facsimile/expy for the game I will be joining soon?

I've thought about rogue, psion, warblade, psychic rogue, factotum, swordsage...But nothing has rung quite right yet.

The goal is to make a decent character first, but flavor is a very close second.

[Fax Celestis]

Take a good look at Ashworm Dragoon in Sandstorm.

EDIT: For Mentat stuff, maybe do Ardent or PsyRogue into Ashworm Dragoon?

EDIT EDIT: or perhaps Warblade into Ashworm Dragoon, focusing on Diamond Mind?

[MageSparrowhawk]

I looked over it, but the size of the companion really bothers me. Dune worms are, what...average of half a kilometer long? Also, Fremen don't fight while riding. They did invade through the shield wall that one time, but I don't think that counts. I guess it boils down to "thematically alright, but not really what I'm looking for".

I don't know what Ardent is, but PsyRogue is an option I thought might work.

Warblade/Diamond Mind looks like a winner for half the build...probably.

[Fax Celestis]

Ardent is a psionic class out of Complete Psionic. It's sort of like... Ardent:Psion::Cleric:Wizard

Warblade//Psychic Rogue could work. So could Swordsage//Psychic Warrior.

EDIT: Waitwaitwait... Psion (Telepath)//Warblade (Diamond Mind Focus)!

[MageSparrowhawk]

That sounds...yes. A good foundation.

How could he get survival as a skill? Any way of replicating his engineered birth/genetics? Vague stat-layout?

[Fax Celestis]

Hmm. Survival...There's the Skill Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/alternativeSkillSystems.htm) feat (scroll down). Or you could see about using the Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) skill swap on your Warblade half.

Genetics could be represented as a Karsite (ToM), Illumian with reflavoring and removal of the visible sigils (RoD), or even a reskinned Killoren (RotW; it looks like a human, but has killoren stats).

[RelentlessImp]

How about a Warmind from Expanded Psionics Handbook? It's like a PrC Psychic Warrior with nicer class abilities. Though you'll have to wait til level 5 to enter it.

Possibly: Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Warmind X|Rogue 2/Full BAB 3/Something X.

[Draz74]

Psion//Warblade does sound mostly very good.

The easiest way to pick up Survival is to just choose Psychoportation as your Psion discipline. However, that's unfortunate in a way too, because otherwise it seems like Seer would be the most thematically appropriate discipline.

Hmmm, Survival. You could always start with a level of Factotum and take Able Learner. It's not like Paul wasn't a genius-of-all-trades, after all. Coincidentally, Factotum/Warblade//Psion is generally considered one of the all-around best Gestalt combos. Not that you'd have to take more than one level of Factotum if you don't want to, of course.

The best way to represent genetically engineered traits is just to roll really good stats. :smallamused:

[MageSparrowhawk]

as for stats, I've been given 42 point buy. :smallbiggrin: For a rough estimate, I'm thinking 14,14,14,18,14,10...but it doesn't feel quite right.

Taking a level (or more? if so, how many more?) in factotum sounds like it could work, especially given the broad range of training he was given when young...(what is able learner from?)

Discipline-it sounds like Diamond Mind would be about the most accurate fit. However, I don't know any homebrew disciplines, so might there be another that could fit too?

Psion-It seems like nomad, seer, or telepath all could work. Thoughts?

[mabriss lethe]

you could pick up a level of human paragon for survival.

With psion, you're going to have to focus down which part of Paul do you want to focus on? Pick your psion's focus accordingly and then fill in the gaps with generic powers that fit the bill or use expanded knowledge to snag them from the other lists.

Factotum is a very good approximation of a Mentat.
you could easily pull Psion(whatever)//Factotum all the way to 20 and have a nice, solid character. Grab a few Martial study feats and perhaps a ring of Diamond Mind if you don't want to grab levels of warblade.

[MageSparrowhawk]

Levels in warblade are important for full BAB and d12 HD.

How about...Warblade 1/Factotum 1/Warblade 8//Factotum 1/Psion 9 ? Shuffle back and forth as necessary from there...

Go seer with expanded knowledge for suggestion?

[grarrrg]

as for stats, I've been given 42 point buy. For a rough estimate, I'm thinking 14,14,14,18,14,10...but it doesn't feel quite right.


(this is from less of a DnD standpoint, and more of a "how the books feel" standpoint)

*WARNING mild Dune spoilers ahead*



Paul strikes me as having at or near max mental scores, on all of them (higher if "not-quite-human").
He was very intelligent: Became a Mentat, and with all of his training, he should be very Skilled.
He was very wise: Male Bene Gesserit, can you picture him failing a will save?
He had good charisma: He is a born leader and men WILL follow him, I'd give him at WORST a 14, and that would be his LOW mental score.

His physical scores should be above average overall, but not super-human.
His fighting style was melee, but with a bigger emphasis on agility, precision, and feints (stupid energy shields), strength would be average, dexterity would be med/high.
He should be tougher, between his training growing up, and his time with the Fremen.

On a by-the-book basis (keeping within the human max of 18) I'd put him at around
Str: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 18
Cha: 16
Of Course, by point buy that works out to about 62.
Keeping to 42 points:
Str: 12 or 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 16
Cha: 14 or 12

Wow, I type alot...

[MageSparrowhawk]

Your points are well founded. I'm not sure if dropping Int by two is a worthwhile move, but it might be.

Would feinting be a good direction to take? For feats and such, I mean. Combat expertise and Improved feint seem like they could be useful. Other feat options? :smallconfused:

[Eldan]

I'd actually say that feinting is well-represented by some of the Diamond Mind Maneuvers. After all, you can hit touch AC that way.

[grarrrg]

OH! Just had a thought, take the Leadership feat and recruit one of the following: (keep in mind I'm not familiar with too many classes outside of core)

Duncan Idaho, Swordmaster, very high physical scores, choose a melee heavy class. For flavor a Duelist fits pretty well, but it's a bad class, I don't suppose some book has a useable version/replacement somewhere?

Gurney Halleck, Soldier/Troubadour, more tactical than outright fighting (though still capable), Bard and Marshall come to mind, providing battlefield support, if cohorts can Gestalt as well, pair with a full-bab class.

Thufir Hawat, Mentat/Assassin, very smart > skill monkey, knows how to kill people > sneak attack. Pick a Rogue or something similar.

Stilgar, Fremen Leader, probably the least interesting option, he likes to hit people with pointy things.

[Draz74]

Rather than Leadership, I was actually thinking you could take a couple Thrallherd levels to represent the Fremen.

Although I still say Seer is by far the most appropriate psi discipline to the story. I like the suggestion of Human Paragon to pick up Survival as a class skill.

More detailed suggestions depend on how closely you're wanting to follow the book, and what level you think Paul was when he was driven into the desert near the beginning.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If you take Human Paragon 1 for skills take 2-3 after you have Psionics to advance that +2 to any stat is pretty awsome.

[Draz74]

If you take Human Paragon 1 for skills take 2-3 after you have Psionics to advance that +2 to any stat is pretty awsome.

Bonus feat doesn't hurt either. You have to convince your DM that Human Paragon can advance psionics instead of Vancian casting, but eh. A reasonable DM should accept that.

[Amel]

Thufir Hawat, Mentat/Assassin, very smart > skill monkey, knows how to kill people > sneak attack. Pick a Rogue or something similar.
I think the earlier mention of Factotum is right on for Mentats. Thus, I believe it would be best done if Thufir and most other Mentats were Factotum/Rogue into Assassin as a PrC. I always thought Thufir was awesome, even if he was stubborn.

[houlio]

I dont have much experience with gestalt characters, but going by the books, Paul strikes me as having a more "rogue-ish" fighting style than a warblade one. If you're going by the books I would say using a skill class like a rogue or a swordsage. You could also take a different approach and get a class with nice saves (I think Paul survives poisoning, riding a sandworm, and lots of spice use).

Furthermore, I don't think Paul ever wears anything except a stilsuit (spelling, been awhile since I read them) and fights with a knife once he becomes a fremen, so if you're equipping your character "by the book," you might want to focus more on a light melee guy. If you use a class from the Bo9S I'm sure you could pick out some fun maneuvers to use.

Otherwise, the improved feint feat would be a good flavor choice, I think Paul uses his seer abilities in the books to read his enemies fighting styles, but I just also might be making that up.

[Draz74]

The Factotum melee tricks (adding INT to attack rolls, damage rolls, or AC) can be flavored as a feint-heavy style quite nicely, and they are much less a waste of character resources than Combat Expertise/Improved Feint. (Feinting is rarely worth a move action. Though I guess it might be, if you're able to use a powerful Strike with your standard action, and your foe is lightly armored with high DEX. Hmmm.)

Maneuvers can also, of course, be fluffed as feinting. My very favorite maneuver is Baffling Defense.

Another issue with Feinting is, it's only likely to succeed if you really pump your Bluff check. Paul's more or less good at everything, but Bluffing didn't seem like a particular strong area.

[Ossian]

Not a Gestalt person, but I reckon that Grarrrg wins this. Anyways, how is Paul's first level not "Aristocrat?". If he has peak human intelligence, he can easily start out with the proper array of skills. I would go as far as level 3 or 4 in Aristocrat. Selection of Genes through the Bene Gesserit (and predestination, let's face it) account for a whopping 18 in INT, WIS and even CHA.

Monk levels (2lvls dip) account for the superior martial arts training, snatch arrows a must with the seeker-killer thing.

Special traits would be: Knowledge : Fremen Lore and Knowledge : Survival (Arrakis) always a class skill.

His time with the Framen takes him well down the "Scout" road, with a boatload of skill points and high mobility. He is a highly competent martial artist but not quite "the most badass ever to live". He should probably get some sort of "force sensitive" feat for free, such as "battlemind" or "enhance ability".

The downside is that "Aristocrat + Monk + Scout" are all "average BAB" classes. If you stat him at level 12 by the time he takes the "water of life" , which pretty much gives him infinite prescience and some sort of control over time and space, you still have BAB around +8.

I reckon that the Kwisatz Haderach should be a template, following the footprints of "native outsider", and that should do it. Full BAB, lots of skill points, and you are fine with wahetever class you pick.

O.

PS
Shai Hulud worms can be huge, but on average (at least on the outskirts of human colonies, not too far into the great Bled) they sit at 400 meters, with a crazy 2000 meters for some of the worms summoned by Paul.

[Amel]

I'm really digging what Ossian is saying. But I'm still liking the idea of Paul being a Lurk. I really think that's a good class for him. Just a thought. One of many.

[Ossian]

Oh, and I have forgotten the "voice". Feels like a trained skill accessible only to Bene Gesserit sisters, sort of "Affect Mind" but au-pair with Lelouch's Geass if not more powerful. Paul seems to just master it because if is the KH :smallsmile:

[MageSparrowhawk]

I appreciate a number of the comments you're suggesting-however, the primary goal is to create an effective character. That, and I don't want to homebrew half of the required stuff to make the character (partly because I'm going to need the character in three days, partly because I doubt my DM will let me).

Dipping for monk doesn't seem like a worthwhile investment. Scout seems like it could work, though I'm not sure if it would be better than any other options (maybe take some martial training feats?). The 'native outsider' could actually work, but it doesn't seem like something I should build into the character-I'll see if my DM would be willing to add something in about that.

Lurk...eh. The feel seems off to me.

Voice sounds to me like suggestion (psionic or otherwise).