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Maerok
2010-06-15, 12:45 AM
So I've been 'following' Dark Heresy/WH40k for some time now. And someone recently linked to 1d4chan (Glyphstone, IIRC, leading to the Katanas are underpowered copypasta) and I spent a great deal of time perusing the DH 'anecdotes' they have on tap there. I also ran into the whole Grendel story which was quite interesting.

I think I might try to get a hold of the book and run a game this semester. How does DH play? From what I've seen it seems simple enough but I wouldn't be surprised if players had to constantly refer back to the books. I'm interested in trying things outside of d20. I know it works around d100 / d10 but I haven't seen anything detailing the actual game mechanics.

There's also the question of which book is the main book and while additions are good to get.

Also, from what I've seen there's at least Imperium (well, duh), Chaos (well, duh), Eldar, and Orks. Do Tyranid or others like the Necron also show up?

holywhippet
2010-06-15, 01:06 AM
I haven't played in a while so I'm not sure what has been in the most recent expansions.

For the most part it plays fairly simply - situational bonuses need to be remembered but it's really no worse than D&D in that regard.

The mechanics are fairly simple, when trying to do something skillful (shooting, picking locks, building stuff etc.) you roll a d100 and try to get under the stat governing that ability. If you don't have training you try to get under half the stat (in some cases you just can't do it at all). As you gain XP you can spend that to buy enhancements - like improving your basic stats or getting new skills or improving existing ones. So you might have a lore skill like demonology which is governed by intelligence for example. If your intelligence is 50 you need to roll 50 or lower to succeed on a lore check about demons. If it's a commonly known fact you might get a bonus like +10 so you'd need to roll 60 or lower. If you improved your intelligence to 55 you'd need a roll of 55 or lower under normal circumstances. If you improve that lore skill by 10 you would need to roll 60 or lower (if your intelligence is still 50).

Different classes have different upgrade paths - so a tech priest will have more tech related skills than a psyker for example.

I found the system could be fairly brutal - but that could just be the poor skill of my group.

Lycan 01
2010-06-15, 01:10 AM
Its probably my favorite system, out of the 9 or so I've played at some point.

Its complex at first, but after you've played it awhile, you can commit stuff like combat rules and weapon stats to memory. It seems difficult, but you gotta realize that skill tests usually get bonuses depending on the circumstances. So even if your "base" chance to shoot an enemy may be 30, when you factor in aiming, range, weapon upgrade, ect, you end up with about a 70 or 80% chance of success. :smalltongue:

I'd suggest Core Rulebook at first, then Inquisitors Handbook once you and your players know what you're doing and are sure you like the game. The books are expensive - be sure you only get them if you're sure you'll be using them.

Tyranids can show up, and are quite fun to play against. I haven't had any experience with Necrons... yet. :smalleek:

The Dark Heresy PBP games on this site are awesome. Join some of them, and you'll learn FAST. :smallwink:

Maerok
2010-06-15, 01:13 AM
Alright, thanks for the advice! I noticed DH is published through Fantasy Flight, which is one of my favorites.

Lycan 01
2010-06-15, 01:21 AM
Seriously, you can have a lot of fun with Dark Heresy. Be sure the players know the setting well, though. Newbies to 40K in general make bad Dark Heresy players... :smalltongue:

Talkkno
2010-06-15, 01:28 AM
Though if you don't mind the theme. Rogue Trader is much better written frankly.

Maerok
2010-06-15, 01:42 AM
Seriously, you can have a lot of fun with Dark Heresy. Be sure the players know the setting well, though. Newbies to 40K in general make bad Dark Heresy players... :smalltongue:

As in TPK-bait?

Lycan 01
2010-06-15, 01:44 AM
No I just mean bad players. They don't get into the setting, they break character a lot, they try to bring too much humor into GRIMDARK situations, and just general "badness" aplenty.

I've never had a TPK, actually. I've had a Psyker's head explode because the Adept turned traitor and detonated the bomb planted at the base of his skull... But I've never killed a whole party. :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry
2010-06-15, 02:08 AM
No I just mean bad players. They don't get into the setting, they break character a lot, they try to bring too much humor into GRIMDARK situations, and just general "badness" aplenty.

I've never had a TPK, actually. I've had a Psyker's head explode because the Adept turned traitor and detonated the bomb planted at the base of his skull... But I've never killed a whole party. :smalltongue:
Too much Grimdark, I mean GRIMDARK, can be boring. It's one thing when it's the fluff of a large scale battle system. It's quite another where your one and only character has to live it. Adding something lighter occasionally will add to the contrast of the dark horribleness of it all.
It doesn't have to be much, but the quiet before the storm makes the storm all that more intense.

Delta
2010-06-15, 02:13 AM
Of course it can add to the setting. But yes, many unexperienced players have some difficulties getting into the right mindset for Dark Heresy, agents of the Inquisition are definitely not your usual type of PCs. The first line I usually pitch to them is "You're the good guys, but not the nice ones".

Grumman
2010-06-15, 02:17 AM
No I just mean bad players. They don't get into the setting, they break character a lot, they try to bring too much humor into GRIMDARK situations, and just general "badness" aplenty.
That's what commissars are for. Bad puns are a shooting offense.

Talkkno
2010-06-15, 02:18 AM
I think a qoute from Eisenhorn sums up the theme of Dark Hersey quite succiently.

"Do you think me weak, flawed? Do you hate me for setting my
inquisitorial role above the needs of one agonised being?
If you do, I commend you. I think of that woman still, and hate the
fact I left her to die slowly. But if you hate me, I know this about
you... you are no inquisitor. You don't have the moral strength.
I could have finished her, and my soul might have been relieved. But
that would have been an end to my work. And I always think of me
thousands... millions perhaps... who would die worse deaths but for my
actions.
Is that arrogance?
Perhaps... and perhaps arrogance is therefore a virtue of the
Inquisition. I would gladly ignore one life in agony if I could save a
hundred, a thousand, more...
Mankind must suffer so that mankind can survive. It's that simple."

Delta
2010-06-15, 02:19 AM
That's what commissars are for. Bad puns are a shooting offense.

Unfortunately, as agents of the Inquisition, your PCs will be beyond the jurisdiction of a Commissar :smalltongue:

panaikhan
2010-06-15, 02:20 AM
Dark Heresy must be the only game system where I've managed to re-create Riddick out of the box (apart from Heroes Unlimited, but don't go there... even on a bet :smalleek:)

Talkkno
2010-06-15, 02:22 AM
Unfortunately, as agents of the Inquisition, your PCs will be beyond the jurisdiction of a Commissar :smalltongue:

It depends, a Guardsman could easily still attached to the Minstriumum for supply and replacement and other such things, if the person was part of a larger unit requisitioned by their Inquisitor, then it would be within the requisitioned regiment's Commissar jurisdiction.

Otogi
2010-06-15, 03:37 AM
That's what commissars are for. Bad puns are a shooting offense.

Is that for shooting their mouths? :smalltongue:

Wait. Crap.

EDIT: Surfing through 1d4chan and discovering the wonder that is Brighthammer (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/BrightHammer40k), I was wondering: has anyone tried to run a BH40K game?

Lycan 01
2010-06-15, 03:53 AM
Too much Grimdark, I mean GRIMDARK, can be boring. It's one thing when it's the fluff of a large scale battle system. It's quite another where your one and only character has to live it. Adding something lighter occasionally will add to the contrast of the dark horribleness of it all.
It doesn't have to be much, but the quiet before the storm makes the storm all that more intense.

I like a bit of comic relief in my games, don't get me wrong. :smalltongue: When the Scum gets airsick and pukes in Zero G, its okay if they crack a few jokes about the Psyker smelling like vomit. When the Assassin picks a fight with some thugs, and they proceed to whoop up on him, its funny but in-character for the smug Arbitrator to act like he's going to help, only to smile and tell the thugs not to actually kill him or hurt him too badly. When the players joke about the Scum having no clear gender, thus leading them to many confusing situations, its funny, but within reason. But... When the Psyker decides that, rather than helping with the investigation like he should, he wants to go back to the building where they're staying so he can turn invisible and spy on the androgynous Scum in the shower so he can find out what their gender is just for his own morbid curiousity and so he can dangle it over the Scum's head, its no longer funny - now its messing up the session, and forcing the Scum into a situation they aren't comfortable with. (The Scum's player was my girlfriend, too. Needless to say, I was not amused. :smallannoyed:) But I rebuffed him with my own funny scene - the Psyker Inquisitor grabbing him by the robe as he tried to sneak into the showers, and giving him a stern talking to - ie: a thinly veiled threat of certain doom. :smallamused:

The Psyker didn't know much about 40K. He didn't grasp that the setting is very serious, unlike DnD. And that Psykers are (usually) one of the most serious classes, too. Now I'm pickier about my Dark Heresy players... :smallwink:

Ravens_cry
2010-06-15, 03:55 AM
Dark Heresy must be the only game system where I've managed to re-create Riddick out of the box (apart from Heroes Unlimited, but don't go there... even on a bet :smalleek:)
Wasn't Riddick based on a old role playing character?
Vin Diesel is One of Us.

Mr.Moron
2010-06-15, 04:10 AM
Unfortunately, as agents of the Inquisition, your PCs will be beyond the jurisdiction of a Commissar :smalltongue:

Well assuming you're even known to be an agent of the Inquisition heh. Quite a few Inquisitioners like to keep their operations on the down-low and aren't going set it up so the authority of the Inquisition is going to pull acolyte #57s bacon out of the fire. Heh.


That aside on the system:

I like it. I don't love it. I've only ever played, but I'm going to be trying my hand a GMing soon.

You're small in the 40k universe and the system helps to reinforce that. Success often derives more from circumstances and conditional modifiers than it does a character's skill. Characters are fragile, at least in comparison to the juggernauts that are D&D characters. Also the world tends to be a hostile place, so those that aren't cautious both in battle and in their interactions can have things end badly for them.

While it has a class structure to it, you're given a lot more choice as you'd expect given that. The game is also pretty clear that it's OKAY to look for custom advances, to gain talents and skills you normally couldn't. So long as you're willing to bid enough XP for it.

The character generation isn't for everyone, as it has very strict roll-in-order setup with no options for a point buy or anything like that. However that's something you can tweak if it bothers you.

Delta
2010-06-15, 04:17 AM
I like it. I don't love it.

That sums it up quite nicely. It's not a great system, but it works.


The character generation isn't for everyone, as it has very strict roll-in-order setup with no options for a point buy or anything like that. However that's something you can tweak if it bothers you.

Every DH group I know lets you roll your stats and choose the order yourself.

Eloi
2010-06-15, 04:24 AM
I've gotta a question for the system: How does your characters not die in the first few minutes like the faceless mooks that they are?

Mr.Moron
2010-06-15, 04:28 AM
Every DH group I know lets you roll your stats and choose the order yourself.

I'm just saying what's in the books.

Personally the 2d10 rolls bother me more than in-order thing. Simply because rolls that small can produce some awfully silly spreads, both in a single character and across the group. That and 40k feels like one few universes where maybe not even your own character generation is totally under your control.

For the game I'm about to run I'm experimenting with the players still rolling in order but on 4d10, take the middle two. Then players get to distribute a number of bonus points across the spread as they see fit.




I've gotta a question for the system: How does your characters not die in the first few minutes like the faceless mooks that they are?


Avoid fair fights.
Don't piss off the wrong people.
Make ample use of cover.
Always have an escape plane.

Don't have a dink of a GM who surrounds you with multi-lasers or some other such nonsense.

Delta
2010-06-15, 04:29 AM
I've gotta a question for the system: How does your characters not die in the first few minutes like the faceless mooks that they are?

By being smart. They have to pick their battles carefully, trying to get every advantage on their side, and knowing when they are outmatched. This can be a hard lesson for many D&D regulars, but there's no thing like CR or balanced XP value of encounters, sometimes, you will face enemies you just don't stand a chance against, and that's the moment to retreat and regroup, try to get your hands on some bigger guns or try to call the cavalry.

Lycan 01
2010-06-15, 04:32 AM
I've gotta a question for the system: How does your characters not die in the first few minutes like the faceless mooks that they are?

By being smart, like the Acolytes of the Holy Ordos that they are.

Seriously, you're only prone to death if you make bad choices or take risks that aren't required. If you play it cool, stay out of trouble, roleplay carefully during NPC interaction, and otherwise just make wise decisions, your lifespan increases drastically.


Also, invest in the Dodge skill ASAP, and always carry a melee weapon in hand unless you're actively shooting - Parry comes in handy. :smallbiggrin:

Beleriphon
2010-06-15, 07:08 AM
This can be a hard lesson for many D&D regulars, but there's no thing like CR or balanced XP value of encounters, sometimes, you will face enemies you just don't stand a chance against, and that's the moment to retreat and regroup, try to get your hands on some bigger guns or try to call the cavalry.

At this point you just call in the local Space Marine chapter, or nuke the planet from orbit. I mean as an agent of the Inquisition its your duty to destroy all xenos threats to mankind.

Delta
2010-06-15, 07:09 AM
At this point you just call in the local Space Marine chapter, or nuke the planet from orbit. I mean as an agent of the Inquisition its your duty to destroy all xenos threats to mankind.

Sometimes it's necessary to do that, yes. Unfortunately, sometimes it's not that easy (is it ever...? :smallamused: )

valadil
2010-06-15, 09:08 AM
I've only played one session, but I liked what I've seen so far.

What's really cool about it from my point of view is where they put the mechanical detail. Most of the game is really straight forward. Roll d100. If it's under your skill you win. I like games that are that simple and elegant.

But, where they want detail they add it. When you hit someone hard you look up just what you did in the critical hit tables. I cut someone's leg off and the gushing blood made every square within 2 meters require a balance check to move through. There's plenty of other dismemberment special effects that can happen too. Having the critical hit tables work that way puts focus on the nasty violent gore. It's a nice mechanical way to show off the flavor of the game.

One thing that's taking some getting used to though is failure. DH doesn't expect you to win every check. I read that in other games, the designers want the PCs to win their checks 60% of the time. I had the most combat heavy character and was rolling against a 40%. When I hit I hit hard. But you can't expect a hit every round (which is probably a good thing because the critical hit tables do slow things down a bit).

Delta
2010-06-15, 09:33 AM
I had the most combat heavy character and was rolling against a 40%.

You can get your usual to hit roll a lot higher than that. That's exactly what we've been talking about. If your skill is only 35-40, then you will have to be smart to create other positive modifiers. You can aim, you got autofire, you can close in on short range, and so on.

Add to that the possibilities of rerolls, additional attacks and so on with certain talents, and you can actually get a quite reliable hit rate in DH (of course, not as reliable as games like Shadowrun, we're still working with linear probabilities here, after all). You just have to get there.

valadil
2010-06-15, 09:42 AM
You can get your usual to hit roll a lot higher than that. That's exactly what we've been talking about. If your skill is only 35-40, then you will have to be smart to create other positive modifiers. You can aim, you got autofire, you can close in on short range, and so on.

Add to that the possibilities of rerolls, additional attacks and so on with certain talents, and you can actually get a quite reliable hit rate in DH (of course, not as reliable as games like Shadowrun, we're still working with linear probabilities here, after all). You just have to get there.

We usually did aim and then attack. Sometimes charge. Haven't been playing long enough to have talents to bring it up much longer though. Even when I did have a full set of bonuses, I was less likely to hit than I would have been in other games. I think this is necessary since you hit so damn hard.

Grifthin
2010-06-15, 11:05 AM
I've gotta a question for the system: How does your characters not die in the first few minutes like the faceless mooks that they are?

Use Cover.
Have no Pity for anyone or Anything.
Trust nothing.
Kill Anything that' looks non-human, Hell kill most things that are human.
Be Crazy awesome.

To Explain - First session my character (guardsman) and his 3 buddies end up fighting some kind of plague ridden nightmare. The thing clean rips my leg off, I burn a fatepoint to just barely survive - jam my lasgun down it's throat (still has my leg in it's jaws) and empty a burst of Semi auto fire IN to it. (+30 from point blank, +10 from semi auto, BS of 42)

Then bayonette it's buddies to death from a prone position as they charge to take down me and the rest of the party.

Get Wooden peg leg (on feudal world), it has secret compartment for las Pistol, Booze, Loh sticks and ammo). March of a week through the forest to civilization. Sneak through city gates.

Get ready to assault fortress gates.

Balls
to
the
wall

Talkkno
2010-06-15, 12:37 PM
We usually did aim and then attack. Sometimes charge. Haven't been playing long enough to have talents to bring it up much longer though. Even when I did have a full set of bonuses, I was less likely to hit than I would have been in other games. I think this is necessary since you hit so damn hard.

If you had a full set of bonus would something be like +30 from point blank range and +20 from aiming alone. That would bring it up somewhere along 90% right there.

Maerok
2010-06-15, 05:01 PM
I have a weird knack for using games outside their established setting, but I'm thinking DH + Tyranids would be something like Starship Troopers. Those troops were far more like Acolytes than Space Marines.

Draxar
2010-06-15, 06:52 PM
It's fun.

Players who don't understand the GRIMDARK can be an issue. Another that can come up, is when you have players who don't really understand/feel/internalise the GRIMDARK, but react to what other players are doing when raiding a drug lab in a mutant slave staffed farming facility, while some of us were carefully and controlledly killing, maiming and torturing to get the information we needed, another member of the party seeing this then suggested that as soon as the mutants started getting restless that he should order the guards to kill 9/10ths of them. Which would likely cause a riot and waste useful livestock.

The dice rolling chargen can be annoying. When making a character, a great concept can be derailed or at least made much more difficult by poor rolling.

As with all systems that use percentile rolls, it's fairly critical that you remember that for simple tasks, you need to give people bonuses to use investigation as an example, finding out what the current gossip is, is an easy (+30) task, finding a general's victories is +20, his service record +10, and identifing an obscure poison is +0. If you don't give people bonuses, then it can be damn hard to get anything done as "Find a particular book in a library" for a starting adept with intelligence 30 and an appropriate skill gives him not good odds if he's not getting a +30 bonus.

It's worth noting that the money system is very heavily simulationist, not gamist. That is to say, you get not very much money at all, as standard. An Imperial Guardsman Commander, that has reached the very top of his profession (as covered by DH), can afford to shoot his bolt pistol five times a month. The better equipment will be difficult or impossible for your players to aquire. So be aware, if your Guardsman really wants to be using a Heavy Bolter, then you'll probably have to have your inquisitor buy it for him, and keep him supplied with ammo. Also, the Noble background/origin gets you about as good non-monetary benefits as most of the other backgrounds, but gives you vastly more money than anyone else, to the extent of being quite unbalancing.

Also, be aware that Psykers burn bright, and burn fast. The amount of damage, and the level of effects achieveable by a Psyker once you start getting your teeth into the discipline powers are huge. However, you will get psychic phenomena, and perils of the warp. Allowing Psykers to use their Fortune points to reroll power rolls (to avoid getting 9's) and/or Psychic Phenomena and Perils of the Warp rolls will make them survive longer. Partly their benefit is that while combat psykers can certainly benefit from a force weapon, they're less dependant on equipment than everyone else.

I recently retired my Psyker character, partly because he'd become the official team leader and I was having issues where I couldn't just fire (or indeed, shoot) the other PCs when they ****ed up because that'd spoil the game and the ****ups were sufficiently based on their general approach to roleplaying games that the next character they played would be about as bad (though perhaps in a different way.

However, the other reason I retired him was because he was distinctly more powerful than the rest of the PCs being able to read someones entire life from their mind, blow their heads up, make everyone I want within 30 or so metres make a willpower test or go unconsious if they have less than 60 toughness, communicate and affect anyone in the same solar system, and (while I never took this power as I'd've been too tempted to use it on a PC, it was the next one on the list) make someone your bitch such that they can never again resist your mental control effects.

But for all the issues, it's fun, I've had good games with it, I like the XP system, it is overall a good expression of the 40k universe.

Maerok
2010-06-15, 08:06 PM
Well I'll look into getting the book and whipping up a group of players. There's a few groups that might be interested.

Talkkno
2010-06-15, 08:36 PM
It's worth noting that the money system is very heavily simulationist, not gamist.

.

I disagree, its a legacy of WHFP and doesn't fit the premises of Dark Hersey at all. I sincerely the Inquisition expects acolytes to be pan handling in there spare time. :smallannoyed: Given the resources of a typical Inquisitor, it would be trivial effort to keep his acolytes are above canon fodder level adequately equipped and supplied. Rogue Trader handles it much better then Dark Hersey.

Maerok
2010-06-15, 08:47 PM
There's always good old-fashioned looting.

Eloi
2010-06-15, 08:50 PM
I'm curious, in Dark Heresy, why don't you play an awesome Saint or powerful character? Like from Chainmail -> D&D there was wizards introduced to replace whole armies because they were so powerful, why isn't this type of conversion reflected in Dark Heresy, and if it is, how is it?

Maerok
2010-06-15, 08:54 PM
I don't think that sort of hopefulness fits grimdark.

Talkkno
2010-06-15, 09:24 PM
I'm curious, in Dark Heresy, why don't you play an awesome Saint or powerful character? Like from Chainmail -> D&D there was wizards introduced to replace whole armies because they were so powerful, why isn't this type of conversion reflected in Dark Heresy, and if it is, how is it?

That's where Dark Hersey Ascension or Rogue Trader comes in, where you get to play a Inquisitor or a Rogue Trade respectively.

Lycan 01
2010-06-15, 09:29 PM
I have a weird knack for using games outside their established setting, but I'm thinking DH + Tyranids would be something like Starship Troopers. Those troops were far more like Acolytes than Space Marines.

You could totally do a Starship Troopers game. Although I hear there's a ST system...

Here's how: All the characters are Guardsmen. Give them Light or Full Carapace Armor, and a choice of Lasguns, Autoguns, Flamers, Grenade Launchers, or Shotguns. No bolters, power weapons, maybe chainswords and plasma guns. If you're basing it on the movie, no power armor. Books or games, maybe give one guy power armor.

The rulebook doesn't exacly say how to create enemies besides Daemonhosts, but it gives a long list of traits and abilities enemies can have, as well as several lists of basic enemies, like cultists, wild enemies, and Daemons. But if you want to make some Warrior Bugs, that's pretty basic, and you can probably whip it up on your own in no time. :smalltongue:

Talkkno
2010-06-15, 09:37 PM
Deathwatch is coming soon!

Maerok
2010-06-15, 09:44 PM
Well, the movie Starship Troopers 3 had like power armor/Urza's Rage. But then again, that movie is more or less dead to me.

Draxar
2010-06-16, 05:35 AM
I'm curious, in Dark Heresy, why don't you play an awesome Saint or powerful character? Like from Chainmail -> D&D there was wizards introduced to replace whole armies because they were so powerful, why isn't this type of conversion reflected in Dark Heresy, and if it is, how is it?

Because that is not the theme of this game. This game is about getting down and dirty with the plebs.You can end up experienced, and somewhat well equipped, but you're still a pleb. Ascension is where you really rise beyond all that, and Rogue Trader is working on the more Space Opera feel. But DH is aiming for the grittier side of it, thus Saints should not apply.


I disagree, its a legacy of WHFP and doesn't fit the premises of Dark Hersey at all. I sincerely the Inquisition expects acolytes to be pan handling in there spare time. :smallannoyed: Given the resources of a typical Inquisitor, it would be trivial effort to keep his acolytes are above canon fodder level adequately equipped and supplied. Rogue Trader handles it much better then Dark Hersey.

I'd say the cost values given for items are probably about right, from a simulationist point of view. I can see that the income is probably too low. I don't have much experience of WHFRP as the experience system (you must only buy stuff from this list! Then you can start a different career that also dictates exactly what you can and can't improve) massively put me off.

I think the idea is that the amount of money you get is what you get if your inquisitor doesn't give you anything, just using your natural tallents. But they don't give you enough of an idea what your inquisitor should be giving you.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 05:39 AM
Because that is not the theme of this game. This game is about getting down and dirty with the plebs.You can end up experienced, and somewhat well equipped, but you're still a pleb. Ascension is where you really rise beyond all that, and Rogue Trader is working on the more Space Opera feel. But DH is aiming for the grittier side of it, thus Saints should not apply.]
Ah, I understand now. GW is wanting to bait us with something interesting and then give us the full thing later. GW as always.

Delta
2010-06-16, 05:48 AM
Ah, I understand now. GW is wanting to bait us with something interesting and then give us the full thing later. GW as always.

Not really. In my opinion, Dark Heresy was the most logical place to start, as Eisenhorn was among the first novels to explore the world of 40K beyond the battlefields in-depth, it's only fitting that the RPG pretty much based on Eisenhorn is the first published.

Eldan
2010-06-16, 06:15 AM
Yeah. Different games have different feels.
Take settings, as an analogue. Not every roleplaying game is fantasy, there's also science fiction, horror, mystery, detectives, superheroes and many others.

Similarly, not in every RPG, you play a hero of the same level. In Mutants and Masterminds, you play (by default) comic book heroes in a four-colour world. In Exalted, you play a figure which is at times almost godlike. In other games, you play a god. In Ctulhu, you are an investigator, some guy with whatever he had in his pockets drawn into events which will drive him insane or kill him with great likelyhood.

And in Dark Heresy? You are a grunt or novice, in over your ears, with equipment held together by duct tape and prayers, fighting mutants in the Tunnels of Caustic Sludge below Underhive 17 before finding out that the governor is corrupt and sold you out.

Basically: different game premises. I like it.

Delta
2010-06-16, 06:18 AM
And in Dark Heresy? You are a grunt or novice, in over your ears, with equipment held together by duct tape and prayers, fighting mutants in the Tunnels of Caustic Sludge below Underhive 17 before finding out that the governor is corrupt and sold you out.

And the important part: You can still get that governor in the end. Contrary to other games, where playing complete losers is seen as a "roleplaying challenge", with the right amount of preparation and using your brains, you can still make a difference in Dark Heresy.

hamishspence
2010-06-16, 09:41 AM
Not really. In my opinion, Dark Heresy was the most logical place to start, as Eisenhorn was among the first novels to explore the world of 40K beyond the battlefields in-depth, it's only fitting that the RPG pretty much based on Eisenhorn is the first published.

I think Inquisitor was the game that laid the groundwork to build Dark Heresy on- it had stats for Eisenhorn, as well as other inquisitors and other characters for inquisitors to have in their parties, rules for making your own characters, and a more complex battle system than 40K or Necromunda.

Ormagoden
2010-06-16, 10:36 AM
I think Inquisitor was the game that laid the groundwork to build Dark Heresy on- it had stats for Eisenhorn, as well as other inquisitors and other characters for inquisitors to have in their parties, rules for making your own characters, and a more complex battle system than 40K or Necromunda.

I REALLY miss necromunda...

The Random NPC
2010-06-16, 10:38 AM
There's always good old-fashioned looting.

The problem with looting is, depending on what you loot, you could be labled Radical and shot for Heresy.
Dark Heresy that is.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 10:41 AM
The problem with looting is, depending on what you loot, you could be labled Radical and shot for Heresy.
Dark Heresy that is.

Are some items (i.e. loot) tainted with Chaos?

The Random NPC
2010-06-16, 10:48 AM
I was thinking more along the lines of Xenos, but yes some can be.

faceroll
2010-06-16, 03:37 PM
I have a weird knack for using games outside their established setting, but I'm thinking DH + Tyranids would be something like Starship Troopers. Those troops were far more like Acolytes than Space Marines.

The Troopers in the movie that get shredded in the first bug encounter were more like IG analogues in the book. The Smurfs are the theological analogue of the Mobile Infantry (in the book).

hamishspence
2010-06-16, 03:59 PM
Tau Crisis suits are probably the closest thing in 40K. The guy in the suit is a normal Tau, but the suit makes him much stronger, and comes with jump jets. And can carry heavy weaponry.

In the Starship Troopers board game, the "Marauder" suit is quite a bit larger than normal suits, comparable to a Tau Crisis suit in size.

misterk
2010-06-16, 04:12 PM
I've run several campaigns and am not a massive fan. I like the fluff, but the system feels clunky. Characters are too incompetent- while wfrp characters are fairly incompetent, they generally can increase their stats with much more ease, something that proves incredibly expensive in DH. Also the skill base most classes start with is pathetically small (the lack of awareness startles me). The combat system is not really fit for purpose- gun fights don't play the way I want them to, and auto fire is silly (thanks to auto fire giving you more hits, and a bonus to hit (which doesn't make sense), you are ALWAYS better off auto firing, apart from into combat). To be fair, I have issues with wfrp combat as well. Armour, which is easy to come by, and as raw imposes no penalties, slows down combat immensely.

The money system is a serious problem, and in future I'm just going to rip off rogue trader's system which makes SO much more sense. The relative pricing is kind of ok, although the weapons vary in effectiveness. The humble lasgun can hurt no-one.

Theres some good ideas here and there, but it doesn't feel elegant. Rogue Trader seems a lot better, but I've yet to play it.

Kaun
2010-06-16, 06:09 PM
Yeah i found the combat system a bit clunky as well.

The fluff is awesome.

I think the game in general needs a bit of house rulling to make it work beyond short mini adventures.

I do like the way the combat system does make the players think about cover more seriously rather then just trusting on their powers of awesome to see them through.

With regards to the issues with funds i think its easier to have the cadre asigned a budget for each mission provided by their superiors.

Hunter Noventa
2010-06-16, 06:47 PM
Is that for shooting their mouths? :smalltongue:

Wait. Crap.

EDIT: Surfing through 1d4chan and discovering the wonder that is Brighthammer (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/BrightHammer40k), I was wondering: has anyone tried to run a BH40K game?

Brighthammer is hilarious, and one of my friends who DMs wants to try it now. Too bad we have a Shadowrun game to finish, then a D+D campaign to get back to before we can do that.

Eloi
2010-06-16, 06:50 PM
Brighthammer is hilarious, and one of my friends who DMs wants to try it now. Too bad we have a Shadowrun game to finish, then a D+D campaign to get back to before we can do that.

I absolutely love Brighthammer! I can actually see playing a game on it, not such a stuffy atmosphere. My favorite part about it? This bit:


Squats! They live!

Hell yeah! :smallcool:

Surrealistik
2010-06-16, 06:57 PM
Fun, though psykers are completely unbalanced (they're DH's rough equivalent/analogue to 3.5's Wizard), and the simulationist economy means that for the most part, equipment must be requisitioned from the Inquisitor/authority/higher up. While random rolls can suck, if you don't want to go that route, you can easily house rule point buys. Lastly, there are definite issues when it comes to the balance of certain mechanics (auto-fire), and pieces of gear (the Lasgun as a direct example is underpowered to the point where it's actually weaker than the fluff!). At least some house ruling is recommended to deal with the most grievous shortcomings, but vis a vis 3.5, not much in the way of arbitrary changes are required. Obviously the setting is pure awesome.

Personally I haven't found DH's combat to be clunky as per prior posters; while it may not be the fastest of all the PbP systems out there, it is still quite smooth.

Talkkno
2010-06-16, 06:58 PM
Fun, though psykers are completely unbalanced (they're DH's rough equivalent/analogue to 3.5's Wizard), and the simulationist economy means that for the most part, equipment must be requisitioned from the Inquisitor/authority/higher up. While random rolls can suck, if you don't want to go that route, you can easily house rule point buys. Lastly, there are definite issues when it comes to the balance of certain mechanics (auto-fire), and pieces of gear (the Lasgun as a direct example is underpowered to the point where it's actually weaker than the fluff!). At least some house ruling is recommended to deal with the most grievous shortcomings, but vis a vis 3.5, not much in the way of arbitrary changes are required. Obviously the setting is pure awesome.


All of the above is mostly fixed by Rogue Trader! Psykers might be pretty powerful, but they have huge glaring weakness, anti-psyker weaponary is really nasty, like the Witchlance(1d10 per psy rating....)

Otogi
2010-06-16, 07:20 PM
Brighthammer is hilarious, and one of my friends who DMs wants to try it now. Too bad we have a Shadowrun game to finish, then a D+D campaign to get back to before we can do that.

So, if I was to say, make a Birghthammer game here on these forums, would y'all join?

Better yet: What would you want from the game? What should I put in, what shouldn't I?

Surrealistik
2010-06-16, 07:36 PM
All of the above is mostly fixed by Rogue Trader! Psykers might be pretty powerful, but they have huge glaring weakness, anti-psyker weaponary is really nasty, like the Witchlance(1d10 per psy rating....)

Yes and no. Psykers in Rogue Trader are _more_ balanced (i.e. the powers that exist aren't completely over-the-top ridiculous and abusable), but still pretty OP. As for anti-psyker weaponry in the game, it's basically nothing compared to the raw power Psykers can dish, even, and perhaps especially when it comes to Ascension (Force Barrage cheese by an Inquisitor/Primaris Psyker can easily deal thousands of damage and it isn't even an Ascended power!).

Draxar
2010-06-17, 07:12 AM
the simulationist economy means that for the most part, equipment must be requisitioned from the Inquisitor/authority/higher up.

Problem is, while there's rules for requisitioning in Ascension, and that tells you how you get your stuff made by applying influence, in base DH, there are no rules for it, which means you get... whatever your GM chooses. Which is fair enough with experienced GMs, but some kind of hint/guide or system would make it far better than "What the GM chooses to give you"

Morty
2010-06-17, 01:33 PM
I haven't played Dark Heresy, but from what I hear, it's interesting. It seems similar to WFRP 2nd edition which I like for its flavor and atmosphere but find rather clunky mechanics-wise - combat takes too long, you need a lot of rolls to get anything done and it's often unclear what you should roll for. Is Dark Heresy better in this rergard?

Surrealistik
2010-06-17, 02:51 PM
I haven't played Dark Heresy, but from what I hear, it's interesting. It seems similar to WFRP 2nd edition which I like for its flavor and atmosphere but find rather clunky mechanics-wise - combat takes too long, you need a lot of rolls to get anything done and it's often unclear what you should roll for. Is Dark Heresy better in this rergard?

I have never found the combat clunky. For the most part it's the standard attack roll + damage roll duo plus/minus modifiers, with the additional step of determining hit location, which you don't have to roll specifically for (it's integrated into the attack roll).

In some cases, as with throwing grenades for example, there may be one or two additional steps, such as determining scatter direction/distance, but by and large, it's fairly streamlined.



Problem is, while there's rules for requisitioning in Ascension, and that tells you how you get your stuff made by applying influence, in base DH, there are no rules for it, which means you get... whatever your GM chooses. Which is fair enough with experienced GMs, but some kind of hint/guide or system would make it far better than "What the GM chooses to give you"

But that said, unless you're a Scum let's say, you're generally able to purchase the minimum of gear needed to be successful on your first mission or two, unless the GM is a total bastard. There are many affordable and effective weapons early game, like firebombs, and autopistols.

Hida Reju
2010-06-18, 01:30 AM
One thing that people starting DH seem to forget often is that Combat in DH is very dangerous starting out.

1. Every weapon in the game can kill you in a few hits even the starting laspistol
2. Armor is expensive while Armor penetration is not especially for Solid projectile weapons.
3. Dodge is god while Parry is weak sauce due simple mechanic of not ever even with a power shield being able to parry ranged attacks.
4. The maximum number of defense rolls you can make in a round is usually 2 pre-Ascension and only a few classes get to take it without rule bending or hand waving from GM. So throwing multiple low power bad guys can kill faster than one or two skilled opponents.
5. Grenades kill PCs fast not so much against monsters
6. It is very easy to throw an encounter way past the players current power lvl without even trying.

Frosty
2010-06-18, 02:12 AM
I wonder if the Fallout S.P.E.C.I.A.L system would work for a Warhammer 40k setting campaign. From what I have read in this thread the DH system is much more clunky.

Thieves
2010-06-18, 05:38 AM
<plug>

As much as I'd love to try Rogue Trader, I feel that the fluff heavily implies Grimdark (even if not Dark Heresy GRIMDARK), and I know this could be quite barring to my group - we're not the kind of guys to go around torturing people for info or go "moral dilemma vs. millions of lives" stuff.

I know the premise of looking for it in Warhammer 40k is kinda lost as it is, but is there a way to perhaps adapt Rogue Trader to a much more pulp, RuleOfCool, not over-the-top setting akin to the Cowboy Bebop series? The reason is I'd like to keep average-smuggler-capable pulp-movie action against a BACKGROUND of W40k, yes, with Orks, Inquisition, Awesome Imperial Tanks and generally strange stuff, but without it all going 100% dystopian and over- (Inquisition/Psyke/RTs) or underpowered (Inquisition mooks).

Do you think it's a question of simply the way of telling the story? Or is it inherent in the mechanics? Do you think I should look for another RPG system? If so, could you suggest one? (not Star Wars; I'm looking exactly for a mid-adventure, neither high-fantasy 'destinies' nor low-fantasy curb-stomping, and I guess that's the most difficult to find...)

Help please?

Comet
2010-06-18, 05:49 AM
I'd say give Rogue Trader a go.

The characters in Rogue Trader are capable and independent adventurers, while Dark Heresy has squishy mooks fighting tooth and nail just to survive. The tagline for Rogue Trader is "Ambition Knows No Bounds", which offers a wide array of themes.
Sure, you could play a ruthless crew of exploiters who rape and burn entire planets just for profit. However, you could equally well play a crew of courageous souls who travel to the farthest stars just to prove that humanity prevails. Or anything in between, really, Rogue Traders are a diverse bunch.

Combat will still be fairly violent, mind, even if the PCs have a better chance of actually surviving than in Dark Heresy.

lesser_minion
2010-06-18, 06:34 AM
I wonder if the Fallout S.P.E.C.I.A.L system would work for a Warhammer 40k setting campaign. From what I have read in this thread the DH system is much more clunky.

You could certainly try, but SPECIAL wouldn't be an improvement, IMO.

Morty
2010-06-18, 08:08 AM
I have never found the combat clunky. For the most part it's the standard attack roll + damage roll duo plus/minus modifiers, with the additional step of determining hit location, which you don't have to roll specifically for (it's integrated into the attack roll).

In some cases, as with throwing grenades for example, there may be one or two additional steps, such as determining scatter direction/distance, but by and large, it's fairly streamlined.


By "clunky combat" I meant that in WFRP, you first roll for WS, and then the enemy can block or dodge. And if neither combatant has high WS, then the combat might drag on and on, with lots of rolls. I assume it's not the case in DH, then.

Draxar
2010-06-18, 08:22 AM
But that said, unless you're a Scum let's say, you're generally able to purchase the minimum of gear needed to be successful on your first mission or two, unless the GM is a total bastard. There are many affordable and effective weapons early game, like firebombs, and autopistols.

Basic equipment is doable, yes. But getting specific stuff for a given mission, or getting better stuff as you get more powerful, is quite problematic. Essentially the issue is that at higher XP levels you are drastically more capable, but your equipment is still crap. And the issue that an Imperial Commander can only afford to fire his bolt pistol 5 times a month.


By "clunky combat" I meant that in WFRP, you first roll for WS, and then the enemy can block or dodge. And if neither combatant has high WS, then the combat might drag on and on, with lots of rolls. I assume it's not the case in DH, then.

That happens, yep. But there are a reasonable number of things that can improve your chance to hit, speeding it up. And once you hit, there are a lot of fairly deadly weapons, things like fully automatic fire, and that the critical tables only go to 10, and 6 to 8 plus is death.

Morty
2010-06-18, 08:35 AM
That happens, yep. But there are a reasonable number of things that can improve your chance to hit, speeding it up. And once you hit, there are a lot of fairly deadly weapons, things like fully automatic fire, and that the critical tables only go to 10, and 6 to 8 plus is death.

Well, I suppose I'd have to see the actual rules to determine whether it's better in this regard. However, I can alreayd see critical hits are more deadly.

Surrealistik
2010-06-18, 09:28 AM
One thing that people starting DH seem to forget often is that Combat in DH is very dangerous starting out.

Yeah, but like Call of Cthulhu, short lifespans are generally something integral to the system (and universe) if things get combat heavy. You must expect to die, and reroll; at least early in your career.


I'd say give Rogue Trader a go.

The characters in Rogue Trader are capable and independent adventurers, while Dark Heresy has squishy mooks fighting tooth and nail just to survive. The tagline for Rogue Trader is "Ambition Knows No Bounds", which offers a wide array of themes.
Sure, you could play a ruthless crew of exploiters who rape and burn entire planets just for profit. However, you could equally well play a crew of courageous souls who travel to the farthest stars just to prove that humanity prevails. Or anything in between, really, Rogue Traders are a diverse bunch.

Combat will still be fairly violent, mind, even if the PCs have a better chance of actually surviving than in Dark Heresy.

Rogue Trader is more of a sandbox and the grimdark elements of the universe in which it's set can be fairly restrained as compared to the inescapably byzantine and Machiavellian trappings of Dark Heresy. I would have to second this recommendation for someone looking to avoid the worst bits of the universe.



By "clunky combat" I meant that in WFRP, you first roll for WS, and then the enemy can block or dodge. And if neither combatant has high WS, then the combat might drag on and on, with lots of rolls. I assume it's not the case in DH, then.

What Draxar said basically. Yes you can dodge and parry, but such actions are limited, and combat in DH is _deadly_ and generally concludes fast.


You could certainly try, but SPECIAL wouldn't be an improvement, IMO.

Agree. The DH system works quite well for the most part, and is probably better than SPECIAL.


Basic equipment is doable, yes. But getting specific stuff for a given mission, or getting better stuff as you get more powerful, is quite problematic. Essentially the issue is that at higher XP levels you are drastically more capable, but your equipment is still crap. And the issue that an Imperial Commander can only afford to fire his bolt pistol 5 times a month.

That's true. Generally to keep up in the arms race beyond a certain point as you advance, requisitioning is basically required (unless you're a Noble). I agree that a framework for this defined in the core rulebook should have been in order.

Grifthin
2010-06-18, 10:22 AM
Currently Rank 4 Guardsman - So far a lasgun's all I've been using. Grenades for sticky situations. Combat is brutal, fast and awesome. Oh and psykers blow holes in things fast and at the same time kill themselves (or allies) just as fast. Why just last session I ended up in a coma from a miss aimed power......

:P

Myshlaevsky
2010-06-18, 10:25 AM
Currently Rank 4 Guardsman - So far a lasgun's all I've been using. Grenades for sticky situations. Combat is brutal, fast and awesome. Oh and psykers blow holes in things fast and at the same time kill themselves (or allies) just as fast. Why just last session I ended up in a coma from a miss aimed power......

:P

Try playing a Tech-priest when the party Psyker is fond of the Weapon Jinx power. Shutting your respirator off = bad times.

Also, you may as well check out the Hellgun if you can.

Surrealistik
2010-06-18, 10:45 AM
Try playing a Tech-priest when the party Psyker is fond of the Weapon Jinx power. Shutting your respirator off = bad times.

Also, you may as well check out the Hellgun if you can.

Weapon Jinx was errataed (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/dark-heresy/pdf/darkheresy-errata-v3.0.pdf) on account of being completely broken for a minor power.

Talkkno
2010-06-18, 10:58 AM
but is there a way to perhaps adapt Rogue Trader to a much more pulp, RuleOfCool, not over-the-top setting akin to the Cowboy Bebop series?


The only problem with that idea you want insofar in respects to Rogue Trader is that the scale is much much higher. A Rogue Trader for all intents and purposes starts out controlling a in stellar merchant empire, even the smallest starting ship has the crews of thousands, and can causally requestion things like hundreds of troops, plasma weapons and such rather trivially. So if your wanting to go more a Han Solo feel of which I am guessing by th e whole smuggler comment .Rogue Trader isn't for you, I would recommended Traveler instead.

Myshlaevsky
2010-06-18, 11:05 AM
Weapon Jinx was errataed (http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/dark-heresy/pdf/darkheresy-errata-v3.0.pdf) on account of being completely broken for a minor power.

We weren't using the errata in the game, but thanks for telling me anyway. I didn't realise it had been changed.

Draxar
2010-06-18, 02:43 PM
That's true. Generally to keep up in the arms race beyond a certain point as you advance, requisitioning is basically required (unless you're a Noble). I agree that a framework for this defined in the core rulebook should have been in order.

Aye. I look at the rules for such in Ascension, and how I understand things to work in Rogue Trader, and it seems a good system that they could've adapted some variation on to represent that which you can get at the lower levels.

Pollen
2010-06-19, 03:28 AM
Love it as a oopen to sandbox but quite crunchy system. Though I've used it more as a source for Traveller than as it is. Just like Traveller there's no option about patching the combat or everyone dies real quick.

FatR
2010-06-19, 08:17 AM
I'm curious, in Dark Heresy, why don't you play an awesome Saint or powerful character? Like from Chainmail -> D&D there was wizards introduced to replace whole armies because they were so powerful, why isn't this type of conversion reflected in Dark Heresy, and if it is, how is it?
Because the authors like to see PCs suffer, presumably. Note, that even most of the supporting cast of Abnett's books, that supposedly serve as the main inspiration for Dark Heresy are action heroes, each of whom takes down dozens upon dozens of Chaos mooks in the course of their adventures. Main characters are downright superhuman.

Dark Heresy, on the other hand, sets the power level as low as possible, apparently because authors fail to see any other sources of grimdarkness than players being powerless. The mechanics are not bad, but unless you want to play survival horror, I recommend going straight to Rogue Trader or Ascension. At least these books allow you to actually generate something comparable to iconic WH40K characters.

FatR
2010-06-19, 08:22 AM
Not really. In my opinion, Dark Heresy was the most logical place to start, as Eisenhorn was among the first novels to explore the world of 40K beyond the battlefields in-depth, it's only fitting that the RPG pretty much based on Eisenhorn is the first published.
Dark Heresy is not based on Eisenhorn novels. PCs aren't remotely comparable even to Eisenhorn's/Ravenor's sidekicks until near the pinnacle of their carrer trees, or unless they rape the system with psyker powers.

Surrealistik
2010-06-19, 02:20 PM
Dark Heresy, on the other hand, sets the power level as low as possible, apparently because authors fail to see any other sources of grimdarkness than players being powerless. The mechanics are not bad, but unless you want to play survival horror, I recommend going straight to Rogue Trader or Ascension. At least these books allow you to actually generate something comparable to iconic WH40K characters.

Starting at a higher rank generally has the same effect. Further, appropriate starting missions can make the first ranks much more palatable (very GM dependent).

Delusion
2010-06-19, 02:32 PM
So in DH the players are inquistor's sidekicks, right? So how does the game handle players just wanting to pull rank and commandeering nearly whatever they need with the help of inquistorial rosette?

Mr.Moron
2010-06-19, 02:45 PM
So in DH the players are inquistor's sidekicks, right? So how does the game handle players just wanting to pull rank and commandeering nearly whatever they need with the help of inquistorial rosette?

You're not one the inqusitioners side-kicks. You are (at least as you start out) one of their throne-a-dozen no-ranking minions. Yes, you've been recognized as having some special potential to maybe go above and beyond the countless other ignorant servants they have but your still pretty much a nobody.

Most inquistioners don't like to make a point of throwing around the weight of the office even for their closest and most trusted allies. You're certainly not going to get it as a run of the mill acolyte, at least not in normal circumstances.

Draxar
2010-06-19, 04:34 PM
So in DH the players are inquistor's sidekicks, right? So how does the game handle players just wanting to pull rank and commandeering nearly whatever they need with the help of inquistorial rosette?

Firstly, as pointed out, you won't get the Rosette straight off, it'll be a fair while before you do, if you ever do.

Secondly, because a lot of the time you don't want to make it obvious that the Inquisition is taking an interest in something; the below is a quote from Ascension, but it's just as applicable to normal DH.


Whole investigations have been ruined on planets when a mere rumour of an Inquisitoral presence was spread; the targets of the investigation ceasing any illicit activities and vanishing into as deep a hole as they could find...
... Sometimes, these enemies decide it is more prudent to go on the offensive and whole cells of unwary Throne Agents have been wiped out when they walked blithely into traps and amushe after their identity was exposed.

Thirdly, because there's a limit to what you can get. There are people who can effectively refuse the rosette and get away with it.

Yes, once you get trusted enough to have it, there are times when you march in and go "By the order of the Inquisition, do this!", but it doesn't dominate the game.


Dark Heresy is not based on Eisenhorn novels. PCs aren't remotely comparable even to Eisenhorn's/Ravenor's sidekicks until near the pinnacle of their carrer trees, or unless they rape the system with psyker powers.

This. Dark Heresy is not about the iconic characters of Warhammer 40k, it's about the iconic settings. That it's a big nasty universe, and you are a very small part of it. Given time, you can rise to become iconic and pretty damn effective. But you start low. And I think that's good, it allows for the scary survival horror games, the low level ones were it's your wits as much as your stats that matter.

If you don't want to play those games, add some XP I'm currently playing a Noble Scum of just under six thousand XP, and he's fairly damn effective he's both a good faceman, and can deal a lot of damage, and avoid a fair bit too. But with the starting level down low, that means there's all sorts of different games you can play in it, and I think that's great.

Edit: Also...
... I've just finished reading the Deathwatch quickstart/adventure guide that's part of Free RPG Day, and I rather like the look of it. It looks to be quite a different game, to compare it to oWoD, it's the Werewolf of the series, in that combat is likely to be a major part of most games. But it looks good, and leaves me actually having interest in playing a Space Marine in an RPG, which suprises me.

Delusion
2010-06-19, 04:37 PM
Well that certainly makes sense :smallsmile:

Draxar
2010-06-19, 08:09 PM
Well that certainly makes sense :smallsmile:

And I almost forgot, fourthly: When an Acolyte waves around the Rosette, he's essentially saying "My Inquisitor says that whatever I'm doing is all cool, and that you should do what I say!" Said Acolyte's Inquisitor will have to deal with the fallout if that power is misused. As such, they'll take their pound of flesh from whoever caused said fallout. So, misuse = bad plan.

It's something you need to keep an eye on, and it's something inexperienced STs should be careful about if you're not sure how you'd want to deal with your players using and abusing the power of the Rosette, then don't give it to them.

Also, if you want to really mess with your players you could do what one ST of mine did when one of us (who was being too pushy and cocky with the Rosette) answered the question "Why should I?" with showing his Rosette, the person he showed it to responded by showing his own, bigger, prettier Rosette.