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Eldan
2010-06-17, 03:49 AM
So sue me if I stole that title. :smallwink:

Anyway. This is a spin-off from the Age of Warriors, concerned with making Legacy weapons for the new disciplines, where it fits.

So, our first task should probably be going over the list of disciplines (re-posted below) and determining which fit the fluff for a Legacy weapon and which don't.


Army of One
Black Heron - None
Black Lotus
Blood Sage - War Scalpel
Broken Blade - None
Chthonic Serpent -None
Coin's Edge
Dancing Leaf
Dread Crown
Falcon's Eye - Frying Pan of Doom
Falling Anvil
Falling Star
Falling Wave
Far Realm
Fool's Grip
Gentle Breeze
Golden Saint
Holy Word
Infinite Torment
Iron Rain
Kaleidoscopic Dream
Knowing Heart
Leaping Gale
Lost Lyrics
Masked Moon
Mental Grip
Monkey Paw - Already done
Mystic Cobra
Narrow Bridge
Nightingale Feather
Ninefold Damnation
Ocean Soul
Ocean Tempest
Oncoming Storm
Placid Lake
Quicksilver Aegis
Rending Scream
Scarlet Bravura
Scarlet Rose
Sleeping Goddess
Silver Crane - None
Silver Pegasus
Solaris Arcanum
Steel Mountain
True Arrow
Twin Spirit - Lance
Untamed Essence
Viper Fang
Way of the Gear
Witch Razor
Untamed Essence

Morph Bark
2010-06-17, 04:39 AM
Presumably all of them would fit the fluff for a legacy weapon if you simply tried hard enough, but I suppose some might fit it more (Fool's Grip for one likely won't, ever).

Eldan
2010-06-17, 04:40 AM
Exactly, yes. Fool's Grip is one which would be really problematic.

I think I would be most interested in starting some of the planar disciplines, that's where the most interesting fluff can be written.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 07:13 AM
Falling Anvil should have the Frying Pan of Doom, from the short story "Utensil Strength" by P. Wrede (in a book of short stories that I don't recall the name of). For reasons related to its history it should be as powerful as you can reasonably make it (with costs to match, which should, like every weapon in this project, be completely worth it). Its is burning hot to any who are not its true wielder (a potholder will take care of that... at least when it hasn't picked its true wielder yet), and hitting someone with it (even if the attack would only hit as a touch attack) polymorphs them into an unfertilized chicken egg. 1 attempt(so missing wastes it) per week, low DC, and wears off after a few minutes to start with. DC, duration, and frequency of use should scale with level. Should probably be at-will and permanent by 20th. The obvious maneuver to have it grant is Improvised Arsenal, but it can also grant other Falling Anvil maneuvers. Pre-requisites should be something about being chaotic aligned and using it in defense of royalty. Note that royalty can include oneself. In the setting/stories it comes from, if you are a main character you are probably BOTH chaotic-aligned AND royalty. Chaotic-aligned in this case means less not following the WRITTEN laws, as much as it does not following the UNWRITTEN social rules (although twisting them against others is highly common), and not acting in a cliche manner (while also being Dangerously Genre Savvy to the settings Fairy-Tale tropes).

Minor Spoilers for the first book in "The Enchanted Forest Chronicles" follows:
To give you an idea, the main character of the series as a whole is a tom-boy princess who ran away from home to avoid being married off and VOLUNTEERED to be a dragons captive. When knights would come to rescue her she would get them to go away, in some cases by challenging them to a duel. Note that she would have lost any such dual, since her parents had stopped her fencing lessons as soon as she found out she was bullying the arms-master into giving her them. That point is irrelevant since almost no princess-rescuing type knight would ever be willing to swing a sword at the princess he was trying to rescue.

Another example of "Dangerously Genre Savvy" is that there was a guy who was trying to fetch some water from a magic spring. There were two dippers, one gold with jewels encrusting the handle, the other beat up tin. He knew he was supposed to use the tin dipper, but had a momentary lapse of reason, and thought it wouldn't hurt to just take the gold one off its hook and look at it. Well, like everyone else who touched the gold dipper he started turning to stone from that hand up. BUT he ALSO knew that it was pretty much the case that when someone sensible enough to use the tin dipper (usually the youngest brother whose older brothers had already been turned to stone) actually shows up and gets some of the water, they usually sprinkle some on the statue before they leave, which turns them back again... so what did he do? Spoilered since it is a riddle and I want people to have the fun of trying to think about it if they like.
He plunged his arm into the spring. This worked... mostly. He ended up as an animate stone statue. This proved very helpful when he was bitten by a dragon, who ended up chipping a tooth on him instead of biting him in half, but was still impractical enough that he decided on consideration not to stay that way in the long-term.

That should be enough to figure out the chart and abilities (which are the parts I don't trust myself to do). The first part of the history I can try to re-create from memory.


EDITED 8:30ish Eastern time to add in the second paragraph in the spoiler, which gives another example of the sort of "Dangerously Genre Savvy" behavior that the Frying Pan of Doom might encourage in a wielder (perhaps might apply to one of the rituals?).

Kurtmuran
2010-06-17, 12:11 PM
wow there are all the diciplines? where i can found the details of the new ones i want to implement it in my dungeon

Elfin
2010-06-17, 12:16 PM
Oh, the Frying Pan of Doom...that brings back memories. :smallcool:

For Chthonic Serpent, I think a spiked chain is in order - but other than that, I'm not sure.

Edit: there are links to nearly all of them in the Age of the Warriors thread.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 12:56 PM
Oh, the Frying Pan of Doom...that brings back memories. :smallcool:

For Chthonic Viper, I think a spiked chain is in order - but other than that, I'm not sure.

Edit: there are links to nearly all of them in the Age of the Warriors thread.

The BEST links collection is probably in the auxillery thread or one of the GoogleDocs spreadsheets.

Elfin
2010-06-17, 03:06 PM
Did I say Chthonic Viper? I meant Chthonic Serpent.

Eldan
2010-06-17, 03:27 PM
Chthonic serpent is a good one to start, though.

So, Spiked Chain. It needs a good name, and I can't think of one.

Should we use the magic item compendium for this? It has a ton of useful enchantments which would allow us to add some variety to that many weapons.

Looking at the pattern in the ToB, all the weapons have:

Least, Lesser and Greater Rituals. They have gold costs in the following range:
Least: 1500-2500
Lesser: 12700-13000
Greater: 39000-45000

Generally, they also do the following:
Grant access to one discipline. They either grant around 3 maneuvers, or improve them if the initiator already knows them. They also often give a +6 ability bonus and always count as a +6 weapon in the end, or a +5 weapon from a special material. If they don't give an ability bonus, they give other specials, like uncanny dodge, sneak attack or others. Furthermore, they grant a few spell-like abilities or other specials.

So, that's the rules.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2010-06-17, 04:06 PM
Presumably all of them would fit the fluff for a legacy weapon if you simply tried hard enough, but I suppose some might fit it more (Fool's Grip for one likely won't, ever).

Artifact bottle.

afroakuma
2010-06-17, 04:09 PM
I think I would be most interested in starting some of the planar disciplines

Any particular reason? :smallbiggrin:

Also, from where did you compile that list, and I need those links. :smalleek:

The-Mage-King
2010-06-17, 04:09 PM
Artifact bottle.

Of alcohol?

Eldan
2010-06-17, 04:50 PM
Any particular reason? :smallbiggrin:

Also, from where did you compile that list, and I need those links. :smalleek:

General Planescape-love :smallbiggrin:

playswithfire
2010-06-17, 04:55 PM
Monkey Paw was mine (later re-named to Maula Kae and made to represent the goliath style of wrestling) and I made a legacy "weapon" for it as part of a contest: The Arms of Gath-Gath Uthalai (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8504410&postcount=5).

Feel free to ignore it and/or suggest changes, though.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 05:29 PM
Of alcohol?

The only question is at what level it gains the ability to refill itself, and what the quality and maximum quantities per day are as the level increases.

Eldan
2010-06-17, 05:31 PM
Hmm. My suggestion was the enchanted table-leg, actually.

Or how about a weapon which can morph into different pieces of broken furniture and household objects?

The-Mage-King
2010-06-17, 05:32 PM
I suggest rum.

It's not like I'm playing in a pirate campaign, or anything... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlatantLies)

DragoonWraith
2010-06-17, 05:49 PM
Personally... I'm not sure I really want a legacy weapon for Chthonic Serpent. I hate the Weapons of Legacy rules, I think they're a very negative thing to include in any campaign, and ultimately, the fluff behind Chthonic Serpent was very much about how it never really caught on, which makes a legacy weapon a little weird. I'm not saying "don't do it", so much, but I dunno. I really don't like the legacy weapons.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 05:51 PM
Blood-Sage's legacy weapon would be a War-Scalpel I should think.

ErrantX
2010-06-17, 05:53 PM
Personally... I'm not sure I really want a legacy weapon for Chthonic Serpent. I hate the Weapons of Legacy rules, I think they're a very negative thing to include in any campaign, and ultimately, the fluff behind Chthonic Serpent was very much about how it never really caught on, which makes a legacy weapon a little weird. I'm not saying "don't do it", so much, but I dunno. I really don't like the legacy weapons.

I'm with DragoonWraith. Black Heron (not Dark Heron) and Silver Crane aren't really the type of disciplines that would develop legacy weapons, they'd develop ritual spells maybe that call forth possessing spirits to be able to get access to them, but that's about it.

-X

Eldan
2010-06-17, 05:53 PM
The mechanics behind Legacy weapons might not be the best, but I love the idea.
Anyway, if you don't want one, we won't make one, I'd say.

Elfin
2010-06-17, 05:57 PM
How about making a lance for Twin Soul, then?
Or perhaps bows for the three archery disciplines? We could do a shortbow, longbow, and composite bow for Iron Rain, Phoenix Feather, and True Arrow, respectively.

Eldan
2010-06-17, 05:59 PM
Fair enough.

How about for Silver Crane/Black Heron, someone (not me, I've never made monsters) makes a pair of outsiders, and then we make a binding spell for summoning them into your body?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-17, 06:00 PM
Having non-composite bows seems to me to be a complete waste of time...

Eldan
2010-06-17, 06:06 PM
I've edited the suggestions into the list.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-17, 06:19 PM
Ya know, thinking about it, the biggest problem with legacy weapons is this: when you have them, you're overpowered. They're better than similar gear for the same price. However, if you lose them, you're crippled. So the DM who gives you one, basically has to give one to everyone to keep everyone balanced. If he takes it away after he's given it to you, he's a jerk because you get unduly hurt by that.

I would support this project more, I think, if we avoided that paradigm and created new legacy weapon rules, perhaps even redoing the Nine Swords. For example, the Ancestral Relic feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds as much as I hate to say anything from that book is any good, has much better rules for a similar theme. I think something like that might work better.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 06:23 PM
How about making a lance for Twin Soul, then?
Naturally.

Or perhaps bows for the three archery disciplines? We could do a shortbow, longbow, and composite bow for Iron Rain, Phoenix Feather, and True Arrow, respectively.
Since composite bows are uniformly better than their non-composite counterparts, I would stick to composite shortbow and composite longbow.


Ya know, thinking about it, the biggest problem with legacy weapons is this: when you have them, you're overpowered. They're better than similar gear for the same price.
Are you including the hitpoint, BAB, and Save losses when you say "price"?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-17, 06:27 PM
Are you including the hitpoint, BAB, and Save losses when you say "price"?
Yes. I haven't exactly gone through them very thoroughly, but my understanding is that they're generally better so long as you're sure you'll never lose them.

Morph Bark
2010-06-17, 06:37 PM
I suggest rum.

It's not like I'm playing in a pirate campaign, or anything... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlatantLies)

If it is a bottle of rum, supposedly, then why is it empty? Where's the rum?

The-Mage-King
2010-06-17, 06:39 PM
Exactly. Where did it go?

Note: I hereby suggest an ability for the bottle called "Where did all the rum go?" that acts as Rage. Or not.

Elfin
2010-06-17, 06:46 PM
I never saw that feat before...but looking at it, that seems a fine mechanic to use, instead of personal sacrifices.

Eldan
2010-06-17, 07:33 PM
Ancestral Relic is not a bad idea. That way, the players wouldn't use resources for them (I dislike the idea of having to pay BAB or HP for weapons).
We could still bind the gold price to rituals similar to the ones already in the books: instead of just paying X gold, where X is what the item would cost, you pay slightly less than X, but have to do task Y as well.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 07:44 PM
Oooo! I just had a really cool idea for the improvised weapon/rum bottle thing...
Instead of being a single polymorphing item, it is whatever improvised weapon you are holding at that time (with allowances for throwing it in combat)... that means you can throw it in the trash, having it get sundered, stolen (the thief just stole a perfectly ordinary chair leg or whatever off you in effect) whatever... the next object you pick up and wield as an improvised weapon will gain all the properties of the weapon. This makes it completely indestructible. If you die wielding it then it stays whatever item it is until someone picks it up, at which point they become its new owner (or however the rules for an legacy weapon getting rescued/stolen/whatever after the person dies). If you die not wielding it, an appropriate random object near you becomes it.

Elfin
2010-06-17, 07:44 PM
I agree on both counts - the idea of personal sacrifices has always been unappealing to me as well, but I'd still like to keep the rituals.

Edit - Ninja'd; this post was directed toward Eldan.

The-Mage-King
2010-06-17, 07:46 PM
Oooo! I just had a really cool idea for the improvised weapon/rum bottle thing...
Instead of being a single polymorphing item, it is whatever improvised weapon you are holding at that time (with allowances for throwing it in combat)... that means you can throw it in the trash, having it get sundered, stolen (the thief just stole a perfectly ordinary chair leg or whatever off you in effect) whatever... the next object you pick up and wield as an improvised weapon will gain all the properties of the weapon. This makes it completely indestructible. If you die wielding it then it stays whatever item it is until someone picks it up, at which point they become its new owner (or however the rules for an legacy weapon getting rescued/stolen/whatever after the person dies). If you die not wielding it, an appropriate random object near you becomes it.

...Brilliant. It fits, and is awesome enough.

Eldan
2010-06-17, 07:48 PM
To expand on Draco Dei's idea:

I like it a lot. However, that would be almost impossible to price... I'd suggest making it a slotless item instead, or perhaps a tattoo or something (there are prices for those, right?) So, you have a small, inconspicuous item on you, and while you have it, all your improvised weapons become powerful. Say, a medallion around your neck, made of a piece of string. Or something even simpler, like a pebble in your shoe. Maybe even the alcohol bottle mentioned earlier: while you hold the bottle in your off-hand, everything in your main hand becomes a magical weapon.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 08:05 PM
To expand on Draco Dei's idea:

I like it a lot. However, that would be almost impossible to price...
ONE of us is missing something... all improvised weapons have about the same stats and a price of "too little to matter at level 5". Or did you mean that the EFFECT I described is too hard to price?

I'd suggest making it a slotless item instead, or perhaps a tattoo or something (there are prices for those, right?) So, you have a small, inconspicuous item on you, and while you have it, all your improvised weapons become powerful. Say, a medallion around your neck, made of a piece of string. Or something even simpler, like a pebble in your shoe. Maybe even the alcohol bottle mentioned earlier: while you hold the bottle in your off-hand, everything in your main hand becomes a magical weapon.

A tattoo that appears on the "true owner" might work... half the point is that there should be next to NO way to be deprived of it for very long. That is the entire point. So no off-hand, nothing that could be confiscated from your reasonably (including a pebble that detects as magical), etc.

JKTrickster
2010-06-17, 08:48 PM
Ok so it's generally accepted that Legacy Weapon rules stink. So let's create new ones, and use Ancestral Relic from BoED as the base, alright?

So before we go on a tangent about what specific form DracoDei's legacy weapon should let's decide on the base mechanics in general first. Tatoo or not, I can't see how any of that helps until we decide what the mechanics are.

Afterward, we'll have to go through which disciplines to create legacy weapons for, and what they generally should be. But this can only realistically happen until after we decided on the base mechanics.

Now looking at the Ancestral Relic feat, characters are allowed to "power-up" their weapons by paying the difference in cost (in either items or money). It also has the added cost of spending 1 day/1000 gp.

Obviously this needs some tweaking before we apply it to Legacy Weapons since Legacy Weapons have always meant more than just another weapon with enhancements on them.

Before we delve deeper, what power level should Legacy Weapons be placed at? And what should be the consequences for losing them?

Like DragoonWraith said, the original Legacy Weapons demanded a serious investment by the character; losing them would seriously screw up any character. Yet, they were also likely to be much stronger than most items available at the same time, even when factoring the costs in.

So what do you guys think? Should we keep Legacy Weapons at the same power level? Lower? Should we lower the consequences if someone loses them?

These questions are important and need to be answered before we move on. Establishing a clear focus on what we want is crucial before we actually decide on making any Legacy Weapons.

Elfin
2010-06-17, 09:25 PM
Legacy weapons, I think, should be quite powerful, because, as you said, they're artifacts of legendary power. So I'd say we should keep them at about their current power level.

I see this working very similarly to normal legacy weapons, but instead of paying with penalties, the wielders will pay with treasure and deed - as per the feat.
Maybe we should make the penalties inherent to the original system take effect only if the weapon is lost?

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 09:30 PM
For the record I consider the Frying Pan of Doom to be much more near and dear to my heart than the omni-improvised-weapon thingy...

One option is that if you lose a legacy weapon you SLOWLY get back all the hp, saves, and BAB you lost over TIME, and ONLY time (no speeding it up with spells, maybe not even Wish or Miracle) that you are without it (one hp per day, and one BAB or Save point per month, can only be progressing towards one thing at a time). If you later recover it you can perform a week-long ritual that costs 1/10 of all the rituals you had to preform to get to that point, and take all the appropriate penalties again.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-17, 09:30 PM
Maybe we should make the penalties inherent to the original system take effect only if the weapon is lost?
I think that's exactly the effect we're trying to avoid.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 10:07 PM
I think that's exactly the effect we're trying to avoid.

I concur...

Elfin
2010-06-17, 10:25 PM
Ah, ok, then.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-06-17, 10:55 PM
I'd just like to point out that my Ocean Tempest has had an associated legacy weapon from the beginning, so you won't need to make one for it whether you use the existing legacy rules or new ones.

DracoDei
2010-06-17, 11:15 PM
The Google-docs should have at least a partial check-off list of what does and does not have a legacy weapon.

Eldan
2010-06-18, 07:34 AM
I would say this:

The Legacy Weapon should be at least as powerful as a weapon you can be expected to have on that level. Otherwise, players will keep it around for the special effects it has and otherwise use a normal weapon. So it should have a scaling enhancement bonus and special effects which are level appropriate.

It should also have special effects, like the normal weapons do, to make it stand out. Time Stop on the Diamond Mind one was nice, if a little useless for a melee character, since you can't attack during it.

The original ToB ones give you access to maneuvers, and improve existing ones, which I'd suggest should also be contained in these. Give access to about three maneuvers, and improve them if you already have them. I'd suggest also effects on stances of that discipline:
"If you are in a Stone Dragon stance while wielding this weapon, you gain a +2 shield bonus to AC" or something.

On the price: I'd suggest pricing them just about like an item with these effects should be priced, as per the Magic Item compendium. Pretty much every effect should be "priceable" like that. The advantage they have over normal weapons is twofold: they can upgrade themselves, so that you don't have to wait for the DM to deliver them to you, or find them in a magic shop, and there's the fluff, which is a nice bonus.

Finally, the upgrade itself: the BoED suggests one day per 1000 gold. Which s nice until about level 4, because players can rarely, if ever, afford to spend, say, 60 days on a ritual to upgrade their weapon to +5 and a special ability. Instead, we should write rituals which can be completed in a day or so.

DracoDei
2010-06-18, 07:44 AM
Finally, the upgrade itself: the BoED suggests one day per 1000 gold. Which s nice until about level 4, because players can rarely, if ever, afford to spend, say, 60 days on a ritual to upgrade their weapon to +5 and a special ability. Instead, we should write rituals which can be completed in a day or so.
You know, one day I will have to get someone to explain this to me... I have known a GM who enforced a "One year between each adventure" rule... I played the Age of Worms, and it felt TERRIBLY rushed... a consipiracy that spanned millenia... and we knock it out in under a year? What in the world? Anyway... enough thread-jack for now...

DracoDei
2010-06-18, 09:04 AM
If we end up going with Save penalties, The Frying Pan of Doom should only hit Fortitude... Reflex and Will would be contrary to the feel of those books I think.

Eldan
2010-06-18, 09:10 AM
There can be games like that, and I've had them. But sometimes, that just doesn't work.
If you play in a world like Dark Sun or Ravenloft, there should rarely be any off-time.
If you play on the planes and your players want to discover something new right away? No off-time.
If the bad guy for your next ten adventures (a story device which I hate, but oh well) will destroy the world in a year? Same thing.

There are a lot of campaigns which don't allow a month of downtime.

JKTrickster
2010-06-18, 09:19 PM
I totally agree with Eldan. Having that much downtime is pretty much impossible for most fast-paced, dynamic campaigns. Limiting the rituals to 1-2 days seem best, since most of the ToB legacy weapons follow that as well.

For the effects on stances: perhaps improve the mechanics of a specific stance? I feel that would be more specific than just a random numeric effect.

Actually, why not have each weapon impart a specific new stance? It would be a costly ability, but it would represent how the martial character changes and really masters their discipline with that new stance.

Pricing them like normal magic weapons makes the most sense, but is this in addition to any of the "ritual costs"? I think that's necessary, especially if these Legacy Weapons are so strong.

And just thought of an idea: limiting how much money/resources can be placed into the Legacy Weapon based on number of maneuvers known. This is mainly fluff based , since it wouldn't make sense to have a Legacy Weapon of a discipline you only take a couple of maneuvers in. It represents a dedication to the discipline above all others.

And also, is anyone worried about a party filled with Legacy Weapon holders? I mean after all these are fluffed as amazing relics but then party balance may be in jeopardy if only a few have it and others don't.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-18, 09:21 PM
If you make the rituals require feats it might work?

Eldan
2010-06-18, 09:27 PM
I doubt there are any problems to party balance mechanically: after all, these are priced as normal magic weapons, so theoretically, other players could just custom make or buy all the effects separately.

Also, wouldn't make them new stances: why would someone holdng the weapon have a unique stance someone else can never master? I'd suggest going the improved stance route, similar to strikes.

ErrantX
2010-06-18, 10:17 PM
Fair enough.

How about for Silver Crane/Black Heron, someone (not me, I've never made monsters) makes a pair of outsiders, and then we make a binding spell for summoning them into your body?

This is something that I've made, and I've got a class that supports Black Heron natively, the Kazarzeth, but I have not posted more than that. I suppose I should do that...

-X

JKTrickster
2010-06-18, 10:27 PM
I doubt there are any problems to party balance mechanically: after all, these are priced as normal magic weapons, so theoretically, other players could just custom make or buy all the effects separately.

Also, wouldn't make them new stances: why would someone holdng the weapon have a unique stance someone else can never master? I'd suggest going the improved stance route, similar to strikes.

True, but they do have some special effects. But you're right. For the most part, they aren't that game breaking.

Well that represents how the spirit of the Legacy Weapon brings them to an entirely whole new ballpark. This isn't a low level ability; at the very least its in the latter part of the upgrades.

DracoDei
2010-06-21, 02:42 PM
Brainstorming about inspiration for Black Rain Legacy weapon:
I am thinking a PAIR of 6 shooters.
(Unnamed guns) wield by Roland from "The Dark Tower series" by Stephen King
Ebony and Ivory wielded by Dante from "Devil May Cry"
?Angel Arm? (single handgun) wielded by Vash the Stampede from "Trigun" (isn't this a cybernetic/grafted weapon?)

For a rifle:
Did Davvy Crocket or Annie Oakley's(sp?) rifles have a name?


Note that I consider Black Rain the second most likely discipline for individual GMs to disallow, after my own... but for campaigns it is in, I think it is especially important for it to have (a) legacy weapon(s)...

Eldan
2010-06-21, 02:54 PM
I thought about just starting at the top of the list, so Army of One is the first one up. Probably a dueling shield, these are cool.

We need to talk about pricing some more: how expensive should the item be, by level? Like Ancestral Weapon?

Also, for abilities depending on level: how do you price an ability giving maneuvers? Like spells? How about improving existing maneuvers and stances?

imp_fireball
2010-06-21, 03:03 PM
The golden lancer is an obvious legendary weapon for way of the gear.

For anyone who's uninformed on what a lancer is - it's an assault rifle with a chain saw attached.
---

The golden lancer can cut through anything (bypasses all hardness for the purposes of sundering and is treated as adamantium for the purpose of bypassing DR) with either bullets or chain saw, and it grants improved precise shot and burst fire as the feats to any wielder when wielding the weapon. The wielder can use its full attack with the automatic firearm to damage a single target rather than an area (full attack is essentially suppressing fire). It also has unlimited ammo and an enhancement bonus of some sort.
------

Lancer Assault Rifle
Classification: Martial, A
Wield: Two Handed
Range: 80ft.
Dmg(medium): 2d6, 20/x2
Full Attack Dmg(medium): 6d6 (requires full magazine)
Dmg per bullet formula - 0.1 - 0.6 Piercing (minimum 1 on output, round down)
Area of Effect: 10x5ft.
Dmg type: Piercing
Weight: 12lbs.
Recoil: -
Special: Chain Saw Bayonet Attachment
Cost: X

Ammunition Loss/Attack: 19 rounds
Ammunition Loss/Full Attack: 57 rounds (-1d6 damage since magazine does not contain enough bullets to meet quota)
Ammunition/Magazine: 50 rounds
Magazine Weight: 2lbs.
Magazine Cost: X

Chain Saw Bayonet
Classification: Simple
Range: Melee
Wield: Two Handed
Dmg(medium): 1d6 Piercing, 20/x2 or 1d8 Slashing, 20/x2 (must be revved).
Special: During a grapple, the chain saw bayonet counts a light weapon for the purposes of dealing damage with a weapon during a grapple. Damage is 6d8 Slashing, 20/x2 when revved or 1d6 Piercing, 20/x2 when not revved.

Revving the chainsaw is a free action on the wielder's turn if the wielder is holding the weapon. Revving imposes a -10 to listen check DCs to hear it (hearing the chainsaw is a separate check from hearing something else, ie. a creature moving silently).
-----

Golden Lancer

The Golden Lancer [Legacy Weapon]

The golden lancer is similar to a regular lancer, with the exception that it appears to be inlaid with a metallic golden sheen.

1st Level: Functions as a regular lancer, with the exception that it has +2 hardness to attacks made to sunder it.

3rd Level: Functions as a +1 Lancer (enhancement bonus applies to chainsaw bayonet as well). Characters who wield it have burst fire as the feat.

5th level: Chainsaw bayonet is quieter. -6 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -10. Chainsaw bayonet can also cut through anything now (automatically bypasses all hardness).

7th level: Improved Precise Shot is granted to anyone who makes attacks with this weapon.

9th level: Becomes a +2 Lancer. Chainsaw bayonet now has a -2 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -6 or -10.

11th level: A character may now use the Lancer's special full attack function (a maneuver that can be made with any automatic firearm) on a single target to reap major damage. Bullets bypass all hardness.

13th level: Becomes a +3 Lancer. Chainsaw bayonet now has a +0 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -2, -6, or -10. Chainsaw bayonet becomes a keen weapon. Can deflect projectiles as deflect arrows.

15th level: +4 to grapple checks for any wielder. Also grants improved grab - The chainsaw can thus make its special grapple attack as one action.

17th level: Becomes a +4 Lancer. Any magazine fitted to the lancer now has unlimited ammunition of that ammunition type.

19th level: The chainsaw bayonet can be used on a readied action to deflect rays or to cancel out sonic based damage up to the wielder's total hp if the wielder were otherwise effected (functions as sonic resistance to the wielder and her allies). Also disrupts radio transmissions up to a 1 mile radius.

20th level: Becomes a +5 Lancer. Further +6 to grapple checks. +50 hardness to weapon. Can ignore partial concealment, cover and improved cover (but not total cover or total concealment) on grab checks to attack with the chainsaw bayonet.

21st level: Successful ranged attacks with lancer initiate a bull rush against target that cannot be avoided (DC is damage dealt by lancer's attack + 1/4 lancer's attack roll). Target must make a balance check (DC equal to damage dealt by lancer's attack) for every 5ft. that they are pushed or fall prone.

23rd level: Chainsaw bayonet can cast shatter (caster level equal to ECL of wielder) when revved.

25th level: Chainsaw bayonet ignores total concealment on grab checks made with it. Lancer is now a +6 Lancer.

27th level: Wielder has great cleave for the purpose of each attack immediately following a successful grab check (only the first applies).

29th level: Chainsaw bayonet is a keen vorpal weapon. Lancer is now a +7 lancer.

30th level: Similar to 27th level, except wielder now has Supreme Cleave (can make 5ft. steps between each attack during a successful cleave).
During a charge made to initiate a grab against a target, you may make a full attack with the lancer's ranged attacks at any target, while standing in any space that you would technically occupy in the line of your charge. While this is a full attack, it effectively counts against your actions per round as a free action made during a charge - charge must be allowed to be made; if impossible, this free full attack cannot be performed.

Eldan
2010-06-21, 03:15 PM
Remember: these are legacy weapons, so they have to scale in power. What you describe is already several ten thousand gold for the feats alone.

imp_fireball
2010-06-21, 03:28 PM
Remember: these are legacy weapons, so they have to scale in power. What you describe is already several ten thousand gold for the feats alone.

Well, didn't you say that the legendary weapons are essentially artifacts?

DracoDei
2010-06-21, 03:32 PM
Remember: these are legacy weapons, so they have to scale in power. What you describe is already several ten thousand gold for the feats alone.

Which means it is a later point in the curve of power by level, rather than the starting point?

Eldan
2010-06-21, 05:07 PM
Yes. The point of Legacy weapons is not that they are powerful: they are that as well, later, but the point is rather that they grow with the character. A character should be able to hold a legacy weapon in his hands at any level and it should be of an appropriate power level.

imp_fireball
2010-06-22, 03:45 PM
Well, I added in some legacy qualities. PEACH?



The Golden Lancer [Legacy Weapon]

The golden lancer is similar to a regular lancer, with the exception that it appears to be inlaid with a metallic golden sheen.

1st Level: Functions as a regular lancer, with the exception that it has +2 hardness to attacks made to sunder it.

3rd Level: Functions as a +1 Lancer (enhancement bonus applies to chainsaw bayonet as well). Characters who wield it have burst fire as the feat.

5th level: Chainsaw bayonet is quieter. -6 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -10. Chainsaw bayonet can also cut through anything now (automatically bypasses all hardness).

7th level: Improved Precise Shot is granted to anyone who makes attacks with this weapon.

9th level: Becomes a +2 Lancer. Chainsaw bayonet now has a -2 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -6 or -10.

11th level: A character may now use the Lancer's special full attack function (a maneuver that can be made with any automatic firearm) on a single target to reap major damage. Bullets bypass all hardness.

13th level: Becomes a +3 Lancer. Chainsaw bayonet now has a +0 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -2, -6, or -10. Chainsaw bayonet becomes a keen weapon. Can deflect projectiles as deflect arrows.

15th level: +4 to grapple checks for any wielder. Also grants improved grab - The chainsaw can thus make its special grapple attack as one action.

17th level: Becomes a +4 Lancer. Any magazine fitted to the lancer now has unlimited ammunition of that ammunition type.

19th level: The chainsaw bayonet can be used on a readied action to deflect rays or to cancel out sonic based damage up to the wielder's total hp if the wielder were otherwise effected (functions as sonic resistance to the wielder and her allies). Also disrupts radio transmissions up to a 1 mile radius.

20th level: Becomes a +5 Lancer. Further +6 to grapple checks. +50 hardness to weapon. Can ignore partial concealment, cover and improved cover (but not total cover or total concealment) on grab checks to attack with the chainsaw bayonet.

21st level: Successful ranged attacks with lancer initiate a bull rush against target that cannot be avoided (DC is damage dealt by lancer's attack + 1/4 lancer's attack roll). Target must make a balance check (DC equal to damage dealt by lancer's attack) for every 5ft. that they are pushed or fall prone.

23rd level: Chainsaw bayonet can cast shatter (caster level equal to ECL of wielder) when revved.

25th level: Chainsaw bayonet ignores total concealment on grab checks made with it. Lancer is now a +6 Lancer.

27th level: Wielder has great cleave for the purpose of each attack immediately following a successful grab check (only the first applies).

29th level: Chainsaw bayonet is a keen vorpal weapon. Lancer is now a +7 lancer.

30th level: Similar to 27th level, except wielder now has Supreme Cleave (can make 5ft. steps between each attack during a successful cleave).
During a charge made to initiate a grab against a target, you may make a full attack with the lancer's ranged attacks at any target, while standing in any space that you would technically occupy in the line of your charge. While this is a full attack, it effectively counts against your actions per round as a free action made during a charge - charge must be allowed to be made; if impossible, this free full attack cannot be performed.

Eldan
2010-06-22, 04:11 PM
Well, you should still include the fluff (of course) and the costs needed to upgrade it, no? Apart from that seems interesting, but, as with the other ToB legacy weapons, I'd include some abilities to improve strikes and stances.

DracoDei
2010-06-22, 06:05 PM
Legacy weapons can't be activated until character level 5 as far as I know. Rituals required at 5th, 10th and 15th level to unlock powers for (I THINK...) 5th-9th, 10th-14th, and 15th-20th respectively.

You have a lot of abilities at some levels... you will probably want to spread them out, now that we are using a chart. Probably need to go ahead and remove the references to "True Owner" I put in there... Also, I got bored of making up names for abilities around 17th level or so. You should be able to quote+copy+paste the forum code out of this, unlike your original, since the forum disallowed double-embedded quotations (via the quote function, not added during the editing process) as a resource saving measure. In future I recommend the Spoiler function instead of the Quote function when editing things that might get quoted.



The Golden Lancer [Legacy Weapon]

The golden lancer is similar to a regular lancer, with the exception that, when "awakened" it appears to be inlaid with a metallic golden sheen.

Non-Legacy Game statistics: +1 Lancer (enhancement bonus applies to chainsaw bayonet as well) Cost 2,###; Weight # lbs. has +2 hardness to attacks made to sunder it and grants Burst Fire as the feat.
Omen:((Just a suggestion)) Despite the standard camouflage finish, the wielder and his allies intermittently notice a split-second flash as if the finish of the weapon were highly reflective.


The Golden Lancer Wielder Requirements( (The requirements are just my suggestion for one of the requirements))
Attack Bonus +3
Must be a member in good standing of CoG and have completed their basic training program (note that after you have completed the (Least Ritual), this requirement is waived, so "going rogue" or retiring does not cause The Golden Lancer's powers to go away.
Wielder Level|Attack Penalty|??? Save Penalty|Hit Point Loss|Legacy Abilities
5th| -| -| -|Least Improved Bayonet
6th| -| -| -|-
7th| -| -| -|Bonus Feat(Improved Precise Shot)*
8th| -| -| -|-
9th| -| -| -|+2 Lancer, Moderate Improved Bayonet
10th| -| -| -|-
11th| -| -| -| Ammunition Hardening
12th| -| -| -| -
13th| -| -| -| Lancer +3 (with Keen bayonet), Greater Improved Bayonet, Bonus Feat (Deflect Arrows)
14th| -| -| -| -
15th| -| -| -| Teeth of Pain
16th| -| -| -| -
17th| -| -| -|Lancer +4 (with Keen bayonet), Bottomless Magazine
18th| -| -| -| -
19th| -| -| -| ???
20th| -| -| -| Lancer +5 (with Keen bayonet), ???
21th| -| -| -|???
22th| -| -| -|
23th| -| -| -|Shatter At Will
24th| -| -| -|
25th| -| -| -|Lancer +6 (with Keen bayonet), Voracious Bayonet
26th| -| -| -|
27th| -| -| -|???
28th| -| -| -|
29th| -| -| -|Lancer +7 (with Keen, Vorpal bayonet),
30th| -| -| -|???+

*Applies only to attacks made with the rifle function of The Golden Lancer (in the case of offensive feats) or while it is wielded (and allows those feats to be used regardless of if they could usually be used while wielding at 2 handed weapon).
** Via revving the chainsaw bayonet. Caster level equals owner's ECL.
Least Improved Bayonet (Ex): At 5th level the chainsaw bayonet is quieter. -6 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -10. The chainsaw bayonet can also cut through any physical object now (automatically bypasses all hardness).

Moderate Improved Bayonet (Ex): At 9th level, the chainsaw bayonet now has a -2 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -6 or -10.

Ammunition Hardening (Su):((Name may need changing to account for the first part)). At 11th level, the True Owner of The Golden Lancer may now use the Lancer's special full attack function (a maneuver that can be made with any automatic firearm) on a single target to reap major damage. Bullets bypass all hardness.

Greater Improved Bayonet (Ex): At 13th level, chainsaw bayonet now has a +0 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -2, -6, or -10. Chainsaw bayonet becomes a keen weapon.

Teeth of Pain (Ex): At 15th level, the shape of the teeth on the chainsaw bayonet alter to a shape that would be nearly impossible to perform daily maintenance on in the field, however they automatically repair themselves when not inside an Antimagic Field or otherwise effected, so the issue never comes up. The increased "grabbiness" combined with lighter weight to allow the chainsaw portion of the weapon to be better interposed against the grasping appendages of a foe grants a +4 to grapple checks and grants the improved grab special quality to its true owner when wielded - The chainsaw can thus make its special grapple attack as one action.

Bottomless Magazine At 17th level, when wielded by its True Owner any magazine fitted to the lancer now has unlimited ammunition of that ammunition type.

19th level: The chainsaw bayonet can be used on a readied action to deflect rays or to cancel out sonic based damage up to the wielder's total hp if the wielder were otherwise effected (functions as sonic resistance to the wielder and her allies). Also disrupts radio transmissions up to a 1 mile radius.

20th level: Further +6 to grapple checks. +50 hardness to weapon. Can ignore partial concealment, cover and improved cover (but not total cover or total concealment) on grab checks to attack with the chainsaw bayonet.

21st level: Successful ranged attacks with lancer initiate a bull rush against target that cannot be avoided (DC is damage dealt by lancer's attack + 1/4 lancer's attack roll). Target must make a balance check (DC equal to damage dealt by lancer's attack) for every 5ft. that they are pushed or fall prone.

Voracious Bayonet (Su): At 25th level, chainsaw bayonet ignores all concealment (but not cover) on grab checks made with it.

27th level: Wielder has great cleave for the purpose of each attack immediately following a successful grab check (only the first applies).

30th level: Similar to 27th level, except wielder now has Supreme Cleave (can make 5ft. steps between each attack during a successful cleave).
During a charge made to initiate a grab against a target, you may make a full attack with the lancer's ranged attacks at any target, while standing in any space that you would technically occupy in the line of your charge. While this is a full attack, it effectively counts against your actions per round as a free action made during a charge - charge must be allowed to be made; if impossible, this free full attack cannot be performed.

Eldan
2010-06-22, 06:06 PM
Didn't we say we wouldn't do HP/save/attack penalties? Those are just stupid.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-22, 06:13 PM
Agreed. The only way I'm doing one for Chthonic Serpent is if we completely abandon Weapons of Legacy for this.

DracoDei
2010-06-22, 06:56 PM
The Chthonic Serpent weapon is yours to do with as you wish, don't worry about the gun in relation to that.

I have no attachment to the penalty columns of the chart (and very little attachment to the rest of the columns). I was just trying to be helpful. Even if MOST things have no such costs... well, this particular one seems very high powered to me, so it MIGHT still have such costs. It isn't my baby, so I am just making suggestions.

Quote+Delete out those columns if you like.

In any case, it still needs Maneuvers... or MORE maneuvers... I think I might have seen one hiding in there in disguise in the 11th level "Hardened Ammunition" ability 8but probably not).

DragoonWraith
2010-06-22, 07:01 PM
Actually, wasn't it determined that Way of the Gear was kinda... incomplete and impossible to fit into the fluff of the rest of the Age of Warriors project? Last I checked, it didn't have an associated skill, or, uh, any fluff at all...

DracoDei
2010-06-22, 10:04 PM
Actually, wasn't it determined that Way of the Gear was kinda... incomplete and impossible to fit into the fluff of the rest of the Age of Warriors project? Last I checked, it didn't have an associated skill, or, uh, any fluff at all...
A good point. I was noticing it doesn't really fit era-wise... and I don't think it is on most of the official lists... but if someone wanted to try to make a legacy weapon for it, I wasn't going to just leave them hanging.

imp_fireball
2010-06-22, 10:30 PM
Actually, wasn't it determined that Way of the Gear was kinda... incomplete and impossible to fit into the fluff of the rest of the Age of Warriors project? Last I checked, it didn't have an associated skill, or, uh, any fluff at all...

That can be fixed.

Also, for fluff, just take a look at the gears of war universe. :P

It's really a part of my expanded gears of war setting.

As for 'age of warriors' it could go in the 'unorthodox material' or whatever section you choose to make. Unorthodox material could go in highly unconventional settings or simply involve weird or humorous things (like falling anvil).

imp_fireball
2010-06-22, 10:34 PM
The Golden Lancer [Legacy Weapon]

The golden lancer is similar to a regular lancer, with the exception that, when "awakened" it appears to be inlaid with a metallic golden sheen.

Non-Legacy Game statistics: +1 Lancer (enhancement bonus applies to chainsaw bayonet as well) Cost 2,###; Weight # lbs. has +2 hardness to oppose attacks made to sunder it and grants Burst Fire as the feat.
Omen:((Just a suggestion)) Despite the standard camouflage finish, the wielder and his allies intermittently notice a split-second flash as if the finish of the weapon were highly reflective.


The Golden Lancer Wielder Requirements( (The requirements are just my suggestion for one of the requirements))
Attack Bonus +3
Must be a member in good standing of CoG and have completed their basic training program (note that after you have completed the (Least Ritual), this requirement is waived, so "going rogue" or retiring does not cause The Golden Lancer's powers to go away.
Wielder Level|Attack Penalty|??? Save Penalty|Hit Point Loss|Legacy Abilities
5th| -| -| -|Least Improved Bayonet
6th| -| -| -|-
7th| -| -| -|Bonus Feat(Improved Precise Shot)*
8th| -| -| -|-
9th| -| -| -|+2 Lancer, Moderate Improved Bayonet
10th| -| -| -|-
11th| -| -| -| Ammunition Hardening
12th| -| -| -| -
13th| -| -| -| Lancer +3 (with Keen bayonet), Greater Improved Bayonet, Bonus Feat (Deflect Arrows)
14th| -| -| -| -
15th| -| -| -| Teeth of Pain
16th| -| -| -| -
17th| -| -| -|Lancer +4 (with Keen bayonet), Bottomless Magazine
18th| -| -| -| -
19th| -| -| -| ???
20th| -| -| -| Lancer +5 (with Keen bayonet), ???
21th| -| -| -|???
22th| -| -| -|
23th| -| -| -|Shatter At Will
24th| -| -| -|
25th| -| -| -|Lancer +6 (with Keen bayonet), Voracious Bayonet
26th| -| -| -|
27th| -| -| -|???
28th| -| -| -|
29th| -| -| -|Lancer +7 (with Keen, Vorpal bayonet),
30th| -| -| -|???+

*Applies only to attacks made with the rifle function of The Golden Lancer (in the case of offensive feats) or while it is wielded (and allows those feats to be used regardless of if they could usually be used while wielding at 2 handed weapon).
** Via revving the chainsaw bayonet. Caster level equals owner's ECL.
Least Improved Bayonet (Ex): At 5th level the chainsaw bayonet is quieter. -6 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -10. The chainsaw bayonet can also cut through any physical object now (automatically bypasses all hardness).

Moderate Improved Bayonet (Ex): At 9th level, the chainsaw bayonet now has a -2 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -6 or -10.

Ammunition Hardening (Su):((Name may need changing to account for the first part)). At 11th level, the True Owner of The Golden Lancer may now use the Lancer's special full attack function (a maneuver that can be made with any automatic firearm) on a single target to reap major damage. Bullets bypass all hardness.

Greater Improved Bayonet (Ex): At 13th level, chainsaw bayonet now has a +0 to listen check DCs to hear it instead of -2, -6, or -10. Chainsaw bayonet becomes a keen weapon.

Teeth of Pain (Ex): At 15th level, the shape of the teeth on the chainsaw bayonet alter to a shape that would be nearly impossible to perform daily maintenance on in the field, however they automatically repair themselves when not inside an Antimagic Field or otherwise effected, so the issue never comes up. The increased "grabbiness" combined with lighter weight to allow the chainsaw portion of the weapon to be better interposed against the grasping appendages of a foe grants a +4 to grapple checks and grants the improved grab special quality to its true owner when wielded - The chainsaw can thus make its special grapple attack as one action.

Bottomless Magazine At 17th level, when wielded by its True Owner any magazine fitted to the lancer now has unlimited ammunition of that ammunition type.

19th level (Noise Refraction): The chainsaw bayonet can be used on a readied action to deflect rays or to cancel out sonic based damage up to the wielder's total hp if the wielder were otherwise effected (functions as sonic resistance to the wielder and her allies). Also disrupts radio transmissions up to a 1 mile radius.

20th level (Ferocious Bayonet): Further +6 to grapple checks. +50 hardness to weapon. Can ignore partial concealment, cover and improved cover (but not total cover or total concealment) on grab checks to attack with the chainsaw bayonet.

21st level (Golden Stopping Power): Successful ranged attacks with lancer initiate a bull rush against target that cannot be avoided (DC is damage dealt by lancer's attack + 1/4 lancer's attack roll). Target must make a balance check (DC equal to damage dealt by lancer's attack) for every 5ft. that they are pushed or fall prone.

Voracious Bayonet (Su): At 25th level, chainsaw bayonet ignores all concealment (but not cover) on grab checks made with it.

27th level (Bloody Weed Whacker): Wielder has great cleave for the purpose of each attack immediately following a successful grab check (only the first applies).

30th level (Toothy Carnage): Similar to 27th level, except wielder now has Supreme Cleave (can make 5ft. steps between each attack during a successful cleave).
During a charge made to initiate a grab against a target, you may make a full attack with the lancer's ranged attacks at any target, while standing in any space that you would technically occupy in the line of your charge. While this is a full attack, it effectively counts against your actions per round as a free action made during a charge - charge must be allowed to be made; if impossible, this free full attack cannot be performed.

Awesome. You might notice I gave some names.

Is their other required rituals?

For greater rituals, I was thinking 'defeat a powerful locust warrior' and then for the greatest ritual 'defeat a mighty locust beast (ie. a corpser) and/or venture deep into the hollow, uncover something new that will help them militarily and then return it to the CoG; if it is indeed a unique item, then you have completed the greatest ritual'.

As for fluff, even though the bayonet becomes 'quieter' it should sound as loud as it would at level 1 to whoever is wielding it.


http://l.yimg.com/jh/content/p/3/1255859/gears-of-war-2-20081014111450396_screen001.jpg


http://www.crunchgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/scaledgoldlanceryx6.jpg

Danzig
2010-07-03, 12:20 PM
Ok, I'm throwing my hat in the ring here and suggesting an alternate way to unlock legacy abilities in an item should be by paying 1/25 of the cost to of leveling up at each level in XP (just like creating an item from scratch). Like for instance, the XP cost to unlock 5th level abilities would be 400 XP. If you were 6th level, the cost to unlock both 5th and 6th level abilities would be 600 XP (Counting the cost of both 5th and 6th level abilities).

The tradeoff should be that there's always something good (if minor) at each level, rather than often a bunch of dead levels with no obvious payoff. Besides, I always imagined legacy rituals are more for someone who found the weapon after the legacy had first been founded.

Personally, to fluff out the abilities granted, I always use that the item grants a martial stance or maneuver at a "dead level", useable only with that item or weapon, and determined by initiator level. Since most characters are not martial adepts, this means that their effective initiator level is usually going to be half of their character level. This approach does tend to favour martial adepts, I admit, but there are plenty of powerful weapons out there that aren't legacy items.

As for recovering expended maneuvers in said variant, the recovery method should be standard for the type of class that uses the discipline. So divine-discipline maneuvers (Devoted Spirit, Holy Word, etc.) would be recovered in the fashion of a crusader, supernatural maneuvers (Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun, etc.) would be recovered in the same fashion as a swordsage, and martial maneuvers would be recovered in the same fashion as a warblade. However, if a character has levels in a martial adept class, they recover maneuvers according to the class they have levels in, not the weapon's recovery method.

Any maneuvers recovered are recovered only for that weapon or item (referred to as a battle meditation).

Mull it over a bit...

Eldan
2010-07-03, 01:32 PM
Actually, my idea was not to pay XP. THe main reason I know is that, out of the players I know, most would rather lose half their money than any XP: XP tracks your characters "progress", and leveling up is worth much more than money, at least to them.

What I did for the weapon I started on (and then neglected, I admit) was that I took the table from the BoED, halved the money values (since they were really high) and made a weapon that cost about that much. I gave it up because I couldn't really find any unique abilities for the discipline I chose to start with.

As for maneuvers: I made them available 1/encounter, with no recovery, and priced them as items giving a spell of the same level, use-activated. The martial scripts from ToB have the same price as a potion, so that should be about okay. I think the final cost was IL*ML*400 GP.

Danzig
2010-07-03, 02:57 PM
Fair enough... I'm not here to demand that everybody use my own personal toolbox of houserules, but if I can give you a copy of those tools and chuck them into your toolbox, so to speak, you're free to use them as you see fit.

I never understood how paying gold is supposed to awaken abilities in an item, though. That's the reason I use XP, and why the cost per level is so low. Though I admit I miscalculated in my figuring there, because I was supposed to count levels 1-4 in my calculation for level 5. I admit, it's a bit of a jump compared to the levels after 5, but that's supposed to be the initial cost for awakening the item in the first place, and you can pay that off in advance. Also, if you note, certain spells use XP costs, as does creating magic items. So, shouldn't it make sense that your own personal growth, XP, karma, whatever you want to call it, be the fuel for your bonded weapon's advancement?

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Eldan
2010-07-03, 03:04 PM
The idea was, basically, that you use the gold to start a magical ceremony. Sacrifice items on an alter, or buy rare ingredients. Stuff like that.

Debihuman
2010-07-03, 03:27 PM
Didn't we say we wouldn't do HP/save/attack penalties? Those are just stupid.

Well, you can choose to ignore them if you like. I personally think that with the kind of power these items give, having a personal cost associated with it shouldn't be a problem. Part of this is to balance out the gain in power that these items have.

I've noticed that the standard legacy items have a wielder level that generally starts at 5 and frequently ends at 20 (some end earlier). Not saying that you can't go beyond that, but I think it becomes harder to judge.

I don't want to give out unfair advantages to one PC if I can help it.

Debby

Eldan
2010-07-03, 03:29 PM
The way I did it, the cost was supposed to be the same one another item with those abilities would have. The gain would basically only be that you don't need item creation feats to do them. So the cost would be in the money. If you want to do it otherwise, go ahead.

Debihuman
2010-07-03, 03:35 PM
According to the core rules, you can't have more than a +5 enhancement on a magic weapon. Has that rule been updated?

Debby

deuxhero
2010-07-03, 03:45 PM
How about a "flame blade" (like the spell, but it doesn't go away, deals pure energy damage) for mental grip?

Eldan
2010-07-03, 04:09 PM
At more than +5 it becomes epic.
But really, there's little reason to give a weapon an enhancement bonus of more than +1 anyway. Most are +1 with special abilities equalling another +9, because that's usually a lot better.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-03, 11:59 PM
Well, you can choose to ignore them if you like. I personally think that with the kind of power these items give, having a personal cost associated with it shouldn't be a problem. Part of this is to balance out the gain in power that these items have.
The problem isn't the balance, the problem is the quandary that they present for the DM: If he gives one person a Legacy Weapon, he's a jerk because that person is stronger than they should be, which is "balanced" by how much it sucks if he loses it. But then if he takes it away, he's an even bigger jerk because now the character is quite badly and permanently hurt by its loss. The Legacy Weapons are all-around exceptionally poor design.

Eldan
2010-07-04, 05:44 AM
Which is why I suggested not making them more powerful than any other item.

DracoDei
2010-07-04, 09:31 AM
The problem isn't the balance, the problem is the quandary that they present for the DM: If he gives one person a Legacy Weapon, he's a jerk because that person is stronger than they should be, which is "balanced" by how much it sucks if he loses it. But then if he takes it away, he's an even bigger jerk because now the character is quite badly and permanently hurt by its loss. The Legacy Weapons are all-around exceptionally poor design.
Err.... the concept is the CHARACTER with the item should be just as powerful... +power from item -power from cost = same power level as everyone else. Whether or not this is do-able or not, who knows?

DragoonWraith
2010-07-04, 10:33 AM
Err.... the concept is the CHARACTER with the item should be just as powerful... +power from item -power from cost = same power level as everyone else. Whether or not this is do-able or not, who knows?
Still means the DM can't take it away without being a jerk, if you manage to hit that balance point just right. It's just a bad mechanic.

And besides, if they're not more powerful, they're not worth that risk. They have to be more powerful to offset the risk of permanent damage - unless that risk is zero because your DM is afraid to be a jerk, in which case you get a bonus with no cost, etc etc. Seriously, it's poor design.

Danzig
2010-07-04, 01:18 PM
The "underpowered without versus overpowered with" problem that we're bringing up regarding legacy weapons is easily fixed by putting in a level-by-level XP cost, and waving the HP/attack/skill penalties altogether. XP cost paid for each level may not be the most attractive way to balance the situation, but it's fair. It comes down to "How badly do I want to upgrade my item?". Perhaps it should be both a monetary cost, and a level-by-level XP cost of 1/25 the XP needed to level. That could balance it out. You might not even have to put in those asinine penalties WoTC insist should go with having a legacy weapon.

DracoDei
2010-07-04, 03:22 PM
Or allow slow removal of the penalties when and if you lose it.

playswithfire
2010-07-04, 03:35 PM
Or allow slow removal of the penalties when and if you lose it.

I'd been thinking something along those lines. They really should have included rules for succession of Weapons of Legacy, particularly since at least one (Supernal Clarity from ToB) involves stealing the weapon as part of its legacy rituals.

Something like: For each day you don't physically possess the weapon, you lose one level's worth of penalties and benefits (you obviously can't use any ability that requires actually using the weapon), working from your character level on down. For every legacy feat its new owner gains, you lose one, against working down from greater to lesser to least.

DracoDei
2010-07-17, 11:19 AM
This is a bump because I want to see what the Frying Pan of Doom looks like.

IcarusWings
2010-07-17, 12:37 PM
I think part of the problem here is that the designers of WoL were (I believe) inspired by the Elric series (i.e. Stormbringer). While this would not be a bad thing necessarily, I think they misunderstood it.
They thought Elric was weak without Stormbringer because he grew to used to the weapon and depended on it, instead, Elric actually depended on Stormbringer because he was naturally a crippled person.

So I don't think WoL should have penalties. So I second the motion of XP rituals.

DracoDei
2010-08-01, 09:45 PM
You have the Frying Pan of Doom on the wrong line in the spoiler in the first post.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-01, 10:13 PM
Or allow slow removal of the penalties when and if you lose it.
Still bad. Adventurers, especially ones in a situation where their person weapon of legacy has just been lost, don't have time to recuperate. At best, you're telling that one "you can't play for a while". It's just bad design. The Ancestral Relic feat from the Book of Exalted Deeds, loathe as I am to admit it of anything in that book, is much better design.

Eldan
2010-08-02, 02:13 AM
My suggestion is still the same (and I should really get started working on some of these):

Make them cost the same as other magic items with the same powers, and let them give no penalties. It's the easiest solution. Their only additional power is that they can be upgraded without the necessary feats.

DracoDei
2010-08-03, 08:56 PM
It just occured to me to wonder... since when it is always foul play on the GMs part if an item goes away? Unless it is railroading, I don't see why having the occasional theft attempt or whatever would be out of bounds.

DragoonWraith
2010-08-03, 09:04 PM
Normally, it's not. But with the Weapons of Legacy rules, losing a legacy weapon permanently gimps your character. You're often seriously better off rolling a new one. That's not the kind of thing a DM ought to do to a player lightly, if ever. Hence, terri-bad design.

DracoDei
2010-09-22, 10:19 PM
Bumping so that the person doing THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9408067#post9408067) thread won't be worried about the possibility of committing thread-o-mancy when the time comes.