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Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 03:58 AM
Ok. Slightly bizarre question, but this has never actually come up before.

Do you get more ranged attacks for a higher BAB? I'd have said yes, but the flavour of things like Rapid Shot makes me wonder.

PId6
2010-06-19, 04:09 AM
Base Attack Bonus

A base attack bonus is an attack roll bonus derived from character class and level or creature type and Hit Dice (or combinations thereof). Base attack bonuses increase at different rates for different character classes and creature types. A second attack is gained when a base attack bonus reaches +6, a third with a base attack bonus of +11 or higher, and a fourth with a base attack bonus of +16 or higher. Base attack bonuses gained from different sources, such as when a character is a multiclass character, stack.
From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackBonus). This does not specify melee or ranged, meaning it applies to all attacks. (If archery didn't get extra attacks from BAB, it would be so hilariously bad it's not even funny.)

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-19, 04:29 AM
From here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackBonus). This does not specify melee or ranged, meaning it applies to all attacks. (If archery didn't get extra attacks from BAB, it would be so hilariously bad it's not even funny.)

All attacks from manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes but natural weapons[bite, claw, wing, tail, slam etc] never gain irrelative attacks.

Runestar
2010-06-19, 04:36 AM
Bear in mind that the process of reloading a ranged weapon may prevent you from taking advantage of the full-attack action. For example, drawing a new rock to throw is typically a move action, so a hill giant can only throw 1 rock each round even with bab+9 unless he has quickdraw. :smallsmile:

Same goes for crossbows.

PId6
2010-06-19, 04:43 AM
All attacks from manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes but natural weapons[bite, claw, wing, tail, slam etc] never gain irrelative attacks.
That's because the rules for natural weapons say:

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.
Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons)

It's a special case. Ranged weapons have no such rule with regards to iteratives.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-19, 04:47 AM
That's because the rules for natural weapons say:

Source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons)

It's a special case. Ranged weapons have no such rule with regards to iteratives.
Well you should have included that clarification to begin with. You told the OP it applies to all attacks, and before he could make the jump to natural weapons I decided its best to nip it in the butt.

PId6
2010-06-19, 04:54 AM
Well you should have included that clarification to begin with. You told the OP it applies to all attacks, and before he could make the jump to natural weapons I decided its best to nip it in the butt.
It doesn't apply to spells with ranged touch attacks either, because those spells specify their casting times in the spell description and only allow a number of attacks based on the spell description. It doesn't apply to most martial strikes either, because those require the specific action listed for the strike (usually standard) rather than attack actions.

If you had to list all the exceptions to every rule, you'd always end up with a list at least five times as long as the rule itself. For the purposes of the OP, the distinction between melee and ranged attacks was enough. Natural weapons had nothing to do with it, and thus were not relevant. The entire D&D 3.5 system rests upon the idea of "general rules, many exceptions," and to list every exception even when not relevant is to pursue a futile endeavor.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 05:11 AM
I thought this was the case. There's nothing in the rules. Just wondered, cos of Rapid/Many Shot. Though I suppose archers need those extra attacks to be useful before being mauled by enemies.

Oh, I remember why I was confused. The Monster Manaul lists all ranged attacks as singular, even using full attack. A good example is the Hobgoblin javelin.

2xMachina
2010-06-19, 05:16 AM
Javelin... you need to draw and throw. Move action I think.

Arrows are free to nock.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 05:31 AM
Javelin... you need to draw and throw. Move action I think.

Arrows are free to nock.

Ah, ok. Thought, as most peopl carry javelins in quivers, they wouldn't need an action to draw. But that makes sense.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-19, 05:36 AM
Throwing weapons always require an action to draw. Ammunition does not.

If you want to be a thrown weapon user, take Quick Draw.

(Shuriken are treated as ammunition, even though you throw them. But shuriken suck and are exotic weapons to boot.)

Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 08:32 AM
Throwing weapons always require an action to draw. Ammunition does not.

If you want to be a thrown weapon user, take Quick Draw.

(Shuriken are treated as ammunition, even though you throw them. But shuriken suck and are exotic weapons to boot.)

I know! It's mad. Assassins AT LEAST ought to get proficiency.

Escheton
2010-06-19, 08:36 AM
They do, on a ninja base

HunterOfJello
2010-06-19, 08:55 AM
(Shuriken are treated as ammunition, even though you throw them. But shuriken suck and are exotic weapons to boot.)

Unless you're a Crusader.

~~


One thing I've always wondered is if you can choose the order in which you attack for the BAB values.

For instance, can you make your +1 attack and then your +6 attack afterwards?

Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 09:18 AM
Unless you're a Crusader.

~~


One thing I've always wondered is if you can choose the order in which you attack for the BAB values.

For instance, can you make your +1 attack and then your +6 attack afterwards?

Why would anyone want to?

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-19, 09:19 AM
One thing I've always wondered is if you can choose the order in which you attack for the BAB values.

For instance, can you make your +1 attack and then your +6 attack afterwards?

I'm pretty sure you're supposed to make your attacks in order from highest to lowest (including ALL your attacks such as those from secondary weapons or natural weapons), but for the life of me I have no idea where this is stated.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-19, 09:22 AM
...
One thing I've always wondered is if you can choose the order in which you attack for the BAB values.

For instance, can you make your +1 attack and then your +6 attack afterwards?

I can't see how that would benefit you unless you wanted to order the bonuses after you knew the result of your rolls, and I wouldn't allow that.

Runestar
2010-06-19, 09:28 AM
It's under the section for full attack in the PHB.


If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.


Why would anyone want to?

I am guessing that the player may want to sacrifice his normally "throwaway" attacks for some bonuses which can be used to augment his attacks which are more likely to hit. Say using your worst attacks to chip away at a mage's mirror images, reserving your best attack for actually hitting him or something?

Granted, I can't really think of why one would one to do this though.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-19, 10:38 AM
That's because the rules for natural weapons say:

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons.

... except for unarmed strikes. They're a unique case of natural weapons which use the iterative attacks of manufactured weapons.

(Just to be confusing.)

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-19, 10:38 AM
Unarmed strikes are normal weapons, not natural weapons. I don't see the problem.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 10:48 AM
Unarmed strikes are normal weapons, not natural weapons. I don't see the problem.

Normal unarmed strikes I'm not sure about, but I know Monk's count as both natural attacks and strikes with weapons. It specifically states it.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-19, 10:50 AM
Unarmed strikes are simple weapons, not natural weapons. :smallwink:

The monk has special unarmed strikes.

Greenish
2010-06-19, 10:54 AM
Normal unarmed strikes I'm not sure about, but I know Monk's count as both natural attacks and strikes with weapons. It specifically states it."A monkís unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Now, WotC has been very inconsistent with Unarmed Attacks. In passing, they're sometimes referred to as natural weapons, but there are plenty of contradictions. (Skip Williams is on the opinion that Unarmed Attacks aren't natural weapons, if someone is willing to pay him attention.)

Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 10:59 AM
Rule 0 and Rule 1 mean its not THAT important though, don't they?

balistafreak
2010-06-19, 11:00 AM
Why would anyone want to?

1d2 Crusader (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135457) trick for infinite damage. It's strictly TO - no DM would let you get by with it - but it's a neat rules trick, nonetheless.

Greenish
2010-06-19, 11:06 AM
Rule 0 and Rule 1 mean its not THAT important though, don't they?Which raises the question of why did you even bother trying to correct someone.

Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 12:30 PM
Just trying to add something xD. The rules comment was more in response to how strange WotC have been about unarmed strikes in general.

Frosty
2010-06-19, 12:56 PM
Unarmed strikes are simple weapons, not natural weapons. :smallwink:

The monk has special unarmed strikes.
Special or not, Monks are not proficient with Simple weapons, so while they can make iterative punches, they provoke each time they do so.

EDIT: On a separate note, can a monk throw his own fists if he has Bloodstorm Blade levels?

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-19, 01:04 PM
No, he doesn't provoke - he has Improved Unarmed Strike.

He just takes a -4 nonproficiency penalty.

Edit: By a literal reading of the rules... maybe.

Kensei can definitely do it, though.

Frosty
2010-06-19, 01:05 PM
No, he doesn't provoke - he has Improved Unarmed Strike.

He just takes a -4 nonproficiency penalty.

Edit: By a literal reading of the rules... maybe.

Kensei can definitely do it, though.

Sorry. You're right. I got the two mixed up for some reason :smalltongue:

I suddenly want to make a Warforged Monk/Kensai/Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade...

Cogidubnus
2010-06-19, 02:11 PM
Sorry. You're right. I got the two mixed up for some reason :smalltongue:

I suddenly want to make a Warforged Monk/Kensai/Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade...

Yes, he can, if he has an amulet of natural weapons that gives his fists the throwing property. The example of its use in SS is a throwing, returning natural attack. Though I think your bite attack would probably drop to the floor if it was returning. It's hard to catch without a head :smalleek:

HunterOfJello
2010-06-19, 02:42 PM
Why would anyone want to?

Woodland Archer Feat. It's a tactical feat that gives 3 nice benefits to ranged attackers. Once of which is, "Adjust for Range: To use this maneuver, you must shoot a projectile weapon against a foe and miss. Subsequent shots you take against that foe this round gain a +4 bonus, because youíre able to quickly adjust your aim to compensate."


If you had BAB +6/+1, then you could use your +1 BAB before your +6 BAB, then you'd gain a larger benefit from this feat. However, it appears that doesn't follow the rules for multiple attacks.

~

Crusaders can use the stance that lets them do additional attacks if they do maximum weapon damage on a roll to throw an infinite number of shurikens per turn with a feat or two.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-19, 05:35 PM
Unarmed strikes are simple weapons, not natural weapons.
They're both: unarmed strikes are simple natural weapons. Here are some of the citations.
You canít cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.
You canít cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).
Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strikeís damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
A fanged ring grants its wearer the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) teat.

The monk has special unarmed strikes. That's true. For a Monk, unarmed strikes (natural weapons) are also treated as manufactured weapons.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-19, 06:20 PM
It doesn't apply to spells with ranged touch attacks either, because those spells specify their casting times in the spell description and only allow a number of attacks based on the spell description. It doesn't apply to most martial strikes either, because those require the specific action listed for the strike (usually standard) rather than attack actions.


A spell is very different thing then simply a physical attack, in both rules and especially in mind.
If you had said all attacks from manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes, but not natural weapons. Instead of simply all attacks, it would have been a better answer.

PLENTY of people have asked if a creature can get multiple claw or bite attacks from having a high base attack bonus. I thought it best to clarify that before he made a common mistake from your response.