Feats granting ability points?

[Magic Myrmidon]

Say someone's looking to become the best they can be without the help of magic. Would allowing them to take a a feat to put one or two points in an ability score be balanced? Or does something like this exist?

I realize that it probably wouldn't be optimal, but my groups generally don't optimize.

[Jarian]

They're generally epic feats. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma)

Mind, those are incredibly terrible for epic feats, just pointing out that they exist.

[Greenish]

Epic feats. Great [Attribute]. 1 point per feat.

[Edit]: Swordsage'd. Yeah, they suck.

[Saint GoH]

Well... Nymph's Kiss from Book of Exalted Deeds gives you a +2 to Charisma based checks. We read that as "anything that uses Charisma gets a +2 bonus" but that's generally used for Sorcerers so that would defeat your purpose :smalltongue:

[Zaq]

I know that there are Epic feats that do that, but I don't think that they're generally worth being Epic. A feat is an enormous opportunity cost, so I don't think offhand that it would be horrifically overpowered. It is, undoubtedly, stronger than some of the weaker feats out there (at the bottom of the barrel, compare +2 DEX to Dodge, +2 STR to Weapon Focus, and +2 CON to Toughness/Improved Toughness. At the low-but-not-oh-god-why level, compare +2 INT/WIS/CHA to Spell Focus. That said, the feats I listed aren't good to begin with.) but that doesn't mean these feats GOOD so much as the other feats BAD.

I guess you could run into multiplication issues when you have builds that add a single stat to lots of different things (a CHA-monster gish, for example, or an out-of-the-box Factotum), but builds like that usually require every feat they can get their greedy little hands on, so the opportunity cost of getting +2 to, say, INT is pretty damn high compared to getting any other feat.

So, I don't see anything wrong on the face of it. I'm sure there's something that can be abused about it, but it doesn't look that bad.

[Escheton]

Vow of poverty gives free ability points.
And some other cool stuff.

[Snake-Aes]

Vow of poverty gives free ability points.
And some other cool stuff.

Yet, it is more restrictive, and as such doesn't work with the intended "magicalness" available to the gear of characters by level. It's a comparative drop if you have access to plenty magic items.

[Draz74]

E6 allows feats to do that. (Again, they're "epic" feats ... but that means something entirely different in E6.) I don't think there would be anything wrong with allowing it in a non-optimization-heavy environment.

A couple good notes about the way E6 organizes these feats:


Only works once per ability score.
It takes two feats to get a full +2 bonus to an ability score. However, rather than just giving a +1 bonus per feat (which could make either the first feat or the second feat entirely worthless), the first feat gives a +1 bonus to ability checks, while the second feat actually gives a full +2 bonus to the ability score (and explicitly overrides the first feat's effect).


I think they call these feats "Dexterity Training" and "Dexterity Boost," or something like that; and so forth for the other ability scores.

[Greenish]

Vow of poverty gives free ability points.
And some other cool stuff.And trying to be the best you can without magic would be somewhat defeated by being blessed supernatural strength etc. (Well, the ability score increases aren't SU, I seem to recall, but the point remains.)

[bloodtide]

How 'without' magic must it be? Do you just want to avoid lugging around magic items?

If so you have all the ability plus books. And spells like wish.

Then you get the ability bonus, with no magic items.

[Escheton]

And trying to be the best you can without magic would be somewhat defeated by being blessed supernatural strength etc. (Well, the ability score increases aren't SU, I seem to recall, but the point remains.)

right, except that it comes from innate awesomeness from denouncing material possessions and roughing it.
Even if the fluff in the book says it still "magical" you can always refluff.
And I don't think it does, but this isnt the "frell it, I'll look it up time yet".

[Knaight]

At the very least, feats granting ability points for the physical abilities is well within reason. There is also a prestige class which increases strength every level, as pretty much its entire shtick, it might be worth looking into.

[peacenlove]

A little unrelated to the topic but deformity gaunt adds +2 dexterity and reduces constitution by 2 and deformity obese reduces dexterity by 2 and adds +2 to constitution, while adding more minor benefits.

[Ashram]

I agree that there should be non-epic feats that increase physical stats like Strength and Dexterity, because if you're say, a fighter, wouldn't you be constantly training to get stronger?

[Greenish]

if you're say, a fighter, wouldn't you be constantly training to get stronger?Yes. That's what the bonuses you gain to your stats as you level represent.

[Myou]

Just make it once per ability score and you'll be fine.

[Koury]

Just make it once per ability score and you'll be fine.

I hardly think even that restriction is needed.

Orc Fighter 18/Barb 1

22 Str Base
+10 Fighter Bonus Feats
+7 Standard Feats
+4 from levels
+6 Item
---------------------
49 total Str (+19 bonus)

Not really a problem here.

You could pump Con and have a crapton of HP, but still. If thats the only thing you have going for you, you're dead anyway.

[Thurbane]

Deformity (Insanity) feat gives a -2 penalty to WIS...in exchange for being immune to mind affecting spells and such. Not bad if you're not a WIS based caster.

[faceroll]

They're generally epic feats. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#greatCharisma)

Mind, those are incredibly terrible for epic feats, just pointing out that they exist.

More liberal CO interpretations allow you to pick those up as a dragonwrought kobold.

[Vaynor]

I think the epic ones should give +2, but I think offering them below epic level is just begging for major cheese. It's too easy to get feats early on. The above proposed limit of once/ability score could work rather well, though.

[Mystic Muse]

Deformity (Insanity) feat gives a -2 penalty to WIS...in exchange for being immune to mind affecting spells and such. Not bad if you're not a WIS based caster.

What's this from? It sounds intriguing.

[Thurbane]

What's this from? It sounds intriguing.
Elder Evils. It a Vile (Deformity) feat.