PDA

View Full Version : What's the CR of a Human Commoner?



amanamana
2010-06-19, 10:58 PM
Hey, playground. The title says all, really.

If you're curious why I ask this: I'll be DMing a low-power, low-magic campaign starting this sunday. There will be some trouble for the PCs involving some bandits and even regular townsfolk. I decided to do some notes right now and I'm AFB.

Thanks.

DoodlesD
2010-06-19, 11:05 PM
Roughly 1/2 to 1/3. it really depends on ability scores and the placement of skills, but 1/2 is probably the best you can get out of a commoner.

amanamana
2010-06-19, 11:12 PM
Isn't it written anywhere? Because 1/2 is the same CR as a Warrior, so I don't think that would be the case.

It must be 1/3, at the most.

Doesn't this information exists anywhere? Because I can't recall reading about it.

Hague
2010-06-19, 11:14 PM
Ah, can you have CRs that are 3rds? I thought it went 1/2>1/4>1/10.

DoodlesD
2010-06-19, 11:17 PM
well, i looked, and i can give you details. you're probably right about it being closer to 1/3. they have skills equal to 2+int bonus/level, so not many, and have a d6 of hit points. no save bonus, no BAB. thats pretty much it. Skills are climb, craft, handle animal, perception, profession, Ride, and Swim.

DoodlesD
2010-06-19, 11:19 PM
Ah, can you have CRs that are 3rds? I thought it went 1/2>1/4>1/10.

you can, at least in pathfinder. goblins are 1/3 Cr, as are skeletons and orc

amanamana
2010-06-19, 11:20 PM
They actually have a d4 HPs (I recall that) and only one simple weapon prof.

They don't even have shield and armour proficiency.

EDIT: Maybe d6 in PF, as I see you're probably using that as a reference.

DoodlesD
2010-06-19, 11:23 PM
yes i am, and i'm sure CR and hp and such vary from edition to edition. However, you could probably just build a commoner like a monster and assign it whatever CR you deem fit. it probably won't take much time as there won't be much to add.

amanamana
2010-06-19, 11:30 PM
Yeah, that's what I was doing. I was just making notes to make any possible combat faster for tomorrow and I stumbled on that. Couldn't recall their CR (maybe that is because it's not listed anywhere...).

Well, thanks for your time, anyway.

greetings.

DoodlesD
2010-06-19, 11:33 PM
Same to you sir. good luck on your campaign, and may all go well and a good time be had by all =)

sofawall
2010-06-19, 11:35 PM
A commoner is a CR 1/2. Yes, this is the same as a warrior. Remember, wizards are considered the same CR as Truenamers and monks. To be less extreme, Warblades are considered the same CR as Fighters. CR doesn't work so well.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-19, 11:41 PM
A good thing to keep in mind when DMing 3.5 is that the CR and XP systems should be taken as guidelines. With that in mind, granting XP awards by assuming a commoner with the non-elite array is a CR 1/3 should be reasonable for a low power campaign.

amanamana
2010-06-19, 11:43 PM
But where is this information? Now I'm curious. Although, I'll probably overrule that, as it doesn't make any sense. A Warrior is roughly twice as powerful as a Commoner, given the same effort to optimize them.

About the PC classes, although they are obviously not on the same level, they were written with that intent (I hope so, anyway). That's not the case with the Warrior and the Commoner. The later is supposed to be weaker than the former.


EDIT: Commoners are not supposed to use the elite array. If I recall well, not even the other one (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8). Aren't they supposed to have all 10-11 on the abilities?

mabriss lethe
2010-06-19, 11:50 PM
you can actually make a pretty dangerous low level commoner. Call him CR 1/2, but that's only if you push it.

Here are some suggestions.
-Domain feats: At low levels, Death domain is rather nasty, but any of them can seriously increase a commoner's wattage. Not for every commoner, but one or two "chosen ones" in any given encounter.
-Weapon proficiencies. Longspears are good for your melee commoners (especially in conjunction with death domain.) otherwise fall back on ranged weapons like the sling or once in a while, a crossbow.
-Max out handle animal and get some dogs or whatnot in on the fun, since they might be more dangerous than the commoner himself.
-Elves actually make rather more dangerous commoners since they have racial weapon proficiencies, allowing an exceptional one to be able to engage more effectively at both range and up close.

amanamana
2010-06-19, 11:54 PM
I understand that. But, as I said, if you put the same effort in optimizing a Warrior, you'll end with a much more dangerous adversary.

Also, I said that they will be Humans and buffing them with magic is not part of the Commoner issue. I could buff anyone with magic to make them stronger.


EDIT: I'm not even going to comment about the Dog thing as, you know, not a Human Commoner. :smalltongue:

Runestar
2010-06-20, 12:40 AM
As mentioned, how much effort are you willing to put into optimizing those commoners?

Cuz we already have cr1/4 housecats that can fly and possess a 2d6 acid spit attack. :smallamused:

amanamana
2010-06-20, 12:51 AM
Ok, not that much effort...:smalleek:

As I said, this will be a low-powered, low-magic campaign, using E6 (that last bit of information is new, though). I don't want flying, acid-spitting commoners. I want farmers and laborers that, when needed, would take on arms and defend their own.

I'm not asking for NPC building advice, not even encounter building advice. I started this with a question about the CR just so I could show the noobs in the group how this actually works by RAW.

But, apparently, there is no RAW. I'm AFB and couldn't recall any rules about this specific CR. I usually recall all useful information in Core, as I play this game since 1st edition and changed to 3.x when it was first printed.

greetings.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-20, 01:09 AM
The only RAW answer I can find is sofawall's answer.

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with character levels.

Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level...
[...]
Levels in NPC classes are always treated as nonassociated.
Edit: In the back of the MM there's also a lot of text on how adjusting CR in such a way is just a guideline, and that you'll probably have to adjust CR differently from what the guidelines say, but I guess that's not as important as explicit rules...

balistafreak
2010-06-20, 01:15 AM
Max out handle animal and get some dogs or whatnot in on the fun, since they might be more dangerous than the commoner himself.


You're thinking too small. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) :smallamused:

(To be fair, there's a level of Marshal in the original build.... but still.)

The flying acid-spitting housecats are still more dangerous, though.

amanamana
2010-06-20, 01:29 AM
Stuff

Yet, this actually does not answer my question. These excerpts are not possible to combine in this case, as there is not a basic Human, without class levels.

Isn't there a list of creature's CRs that includes a Human Commoner? Not that this matter much, but I got curious.

Anyway, thanks for your attention.

greetings.

Morph Bark
2010-06-20, 04:46 AM
As mentioned, how much effort are you willing to put into optimizing those commoners?

Cuz we already have cr1/4 housecats that can fly and possess a 2d6 acid spit attack. :smallamused:

Wait, I knew about the acid spit, but flying? Wat. whendiddishappen

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-20, 05:18 AM
Yet, this actually does not answer my question. These excerpts are not possible to combine in this case, as there is not a basic Human, without class levels.

Isn't there a list of creature's CRs that includes a Human Commoner? Not that this matter much, but I got curious.

Anyway, thanks for your attention.

greetings.There's a list of CRs that include a zombie of a human commoner (CR 1/2), but not just a human commoner. The problem is exactly that there are no basic human stats, so there's no creature to work with. That means, before we add class levels of some sort, it has no HD, so it's either dead or doesn't exist. CR 0. Then we add an NPC class level, which is always treated as nonassociated, so we have CR 1/2. Before I had been assuming it worked like an Elf, Gnome, Dwarf, et cetera, where we had a basic CR 1/2 humanoid (without it being listed), we removed the HD, and we gave it a commoner level. CR 1/2. This is as close to RAW as you're going to get. Note that a human skeleton warrior is CR 1/3, so a single commoner should probably be CR 1/3 or less.

Runestar
2010-06-20, 05:47 AM
Wait, I knew about the acid spit, but flying? Wat. whendiddishappen

So yeah, your cr1/4 housecat comes with a cr1 familiar, a 1d6 ranged attack and 10-ft flight. :smallcool:

Oops...its only 1d6, not 2d6. My bad. :smalltongue:


A housecat has the following ability score modifiers: -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +0 Constitution, -8 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. We can give a housecat the nonelite array without increasing its CR, and we'll assign 11 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 10 Intelligence, 9 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. Thus, a housecat with the nonelite array distribution as given above would have the following ability scores: 3 Strength, 16 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 2 intelligence, 11 Wisdom, 4 Charisma.

>Using Unearthed Arcana's flaw system, we can give the housecat the Meager Fortitude and Weak-Willed flaws so that it gets two free bonus feats. With three feat slots to spend, we can make the housecat take Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandals), Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), and Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar). This gives it a fly speed of 10 feet with good maneuverability, a spit attack which deals 1d6 acid damage upon a successful ranged touch attack with a range of 60 feet as a standard action at will, and a useful familiar which is also a formidable combatant when compared to the housecat.

>So yeah, it's a min-maxed flying housecat that can spit acid and has its own pseudo-familiar. And it's still technically a CR 1/4 housecat. Make of it what you will

That said, I think a human commoner1 is somewhere between cr1/3 and cr1/4. It has what...4hp, +1 to-hit for 1d6 damage?

Morph Bark
2010-06-20, 09:56 AM
So yeah, your cr1/4 housecat comes with a cr1 familiar, a 1d6 ranged attack and 10-ft flight. :smallcool:

Oops...its only 1d6, not 2d6. My bad. :smalltongue:

...huh, when you said familiar, for a bit I assumed you meant a level 1 wizard awakened cat. Threw me off as I had been thinking Incarnum all this time. Guess I was in the right direction anyway.

That being said... hm, I think I need some Incarnum specialists for my challenge.

Ilmryn
2010-06-20, 11:36 AM
Roughly 1/2 to 1/3. it really depends on ability scores and the placement of skills, but 1/2 is probably the best you can get out of a commoner.

A human skeleton is CR 1/3. It is better than a commoner.
A kobold warrior is CR 1/4. I'd say even the kobold is better than a non-optimized commoner.
I'd say CR 1/6 for a non-optimized commoner.
With non-optimized, i mean a commoner with noncombat feats(most commoners don't expect to fight regularely enough to take combat feats over skill feats), nonelite array(13,12,11,10,9,8), and equipped as the 1st level commoner conscript is described in the DMG(spear(or miscellaneous farming implement:smallamused:)+padded armor).

amanamana
2010-06-20, 11:37 AM
That said, I think a human commoner1 is somewhere between cr1/3 and cr1/4. It has what...4hp, +1 to-hit for 1d6 damage?

Actually, just the first PC class level has maxed out HPs. NPC class levels don't max the first HD. Hence the fact that a elf warrior has 4 HP's (no Con mod).

That puts our commoner with just 2+Con mod HPs. Also, he has no BAB, no bonus on the Saves, no armour or shields proficiencies and only 1 simple weapon proficiency.

That sounds like a 1/3 CR, at the most, to me.

greetings to all.

amanamana
2010-06-20, 11:43 AM
A human skeleton is CR 1/3. It is better than a commoner.
A kobold warrior is CR 1/4. I'd say even the kobold is better than a non-optimized commoner.
I'd say CR 1/6 for a non-optimized commoner.
With non-optimized, i mean a commoner with noncombat feats(most commoners don't expect to fight regularely enough to take combat feats over skill feats), nonelite array(13,12,11,10,9,8), and equipped as the 1st level commoner conscript is described in the DMG(spear(or miscellaneous farming implement:smallamused:)+padded armor).

A kobold warrior could kick Human Commoners asses, given the same effort in optimization.

What you're saying makes much more sense. I also couldn't remember what the CR of a Kobold Warrior was. But, with that information, I'll review my opinion and say that the CR of a Human Commoner is, at the most, 1/4. Maybe even 1/6, as you suggest.

I would almost never use the elite array for a Commoner, anyway.

greetings to all.

Scarey Nerd
2010-06-20, 04:47 PM
I suggest checking Races of Destiny, it's just about my favourite book ever, as it has the stats for a Human Bandit :smalltongue: