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View Full Version : One Weapon Fighting, Version 3 [3.5]



Fizban
2010-06-20, 07:21 AM
Edit: New variants in multiple flavors. There's hitting harder, hitting faster, free critical threats, and just plain extra damage from your special abilities. The old version of One Handed Fighting is in a spoiler at the bottom if you're looking for it. New feats also have a little fluff, emphasis on little.

Edit2: renamed Precise Fighter to Focused Style and removed the melee restriction. It's now usable with one handed ranged weapons, like daggers and hand crossbows. And while I was at it, I decided to write up something for crossbows. It's still a stickler about handedness, but that should keep it from mixing with Focused Style. I don't think the crit mechanic can be abused very easily with ranged weapons, especially crossbows, so I'm not too worried about abuse, but as always I could be wrong so that's why I ask for your help.

Edit3: Person Man pointed out that the last crop of feats were strongly duplicative of each other, and he had a good point, so I've reduced it to one feat line and two standalone feats, and axed the crossbow feats for now. As before, old versions are spoilered at the bottom. While Special Attack Specialization is actually weaker than the last version because you can never use it more than 1/round, it feels like more of a must-have feat, which is usually a bad sign. Since Milskidasith described the old one as powerful but didn't say overpowered I'm going to keep it in the running for now (hopefully I'm not putting words in his mouth :smalleek:).

One Weapon Fighting [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Dex 15
Benefit: Once per round when you successfully make an attack with a manufactured weapon wielded in one hand, you gain an extra attack at the same attack bonus. You may not use your other hand (or hands) to make attacks, use a shield (including animated shields), or fire a projectile weapon that requires two hands to fire (such as a bow) in the same round that you use this feat.

Improved One Weapon Fighting [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, One Weapon Fighting, BAB +6
Benefit: You may gain a second extra attack each round from your One Weapon Fighting feat.

Greater One Weapon Fighting [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, One Weapon Fighting, Improved One Weapon Fighting, BAB +11
Benefit: You may gain a third extra attack each round from your One Weapon Fighting feat.

Perfect One Weapon Fighting [Epic]
Prerequisites: Dex 25, One Weapon Fighting, Improved One Weapon Fighting, Greater One Weapon Fighting
Benefit: You may use your One Weapon Fighting feat as many times per round as you have attacks (Ex: you have 4 attacks from BAB and 1 attack from a Haste spell, so you gain up to 5 extra attacks from your One Weapon Fighting feat). Each extra attack still requires you to meet the requirements for One Weapon Fighting before you can use it.

One Handed Power Attack
Prerequisites: Str 15, Power Attack
Benefit: When attacking with a weapon wielded in one hand and using your Power Attack feat, you deal extra damage from Power Attack as if you were wielding the weapon in two hands.

Special Attack Specialization
Prerequisites: A source of bonus damage from a class ability.
Benefit: Choose a source of damage you have from a class ability, such as sneak attack or favored enemy. Once per round before making an attack, you may choose to double the damage from your chosen ability for that attack. If the attack misses, the attempt is wasted.


One Handed Fighting [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 15
Benefit: When making a full attack with a single melee weapon wielded in one hand, you can deal extra damage. Once during your full attack after hitting an opponent you can make a second attack roll as a free action using the same bonuses as the attack that just hit. If this second roll hits, you may double any bonus damage from the triggering attack.
Special: bonus damage for this feat must be damage that applies to all attacks in your full attack. It does not include the base damage of the weapon or effects on the weapon, but does include damage from ability modifiers and effects on the user, as well as special attacks and feats. Bonus damage that cannot be applied to a second weapon without additional cost cannot be used with this feat. A Fighter may select One Handed Fighting as one of his bonus feats.

Example: a level 1 rogue with OHF and 12 strength makes a full attack against a foe with a dagger in one hand while flanking with an ally. He hits on his attack and makes a second attack roll with the same bonuses, which also hits. The rogue deals his normal weapon damage and deals double his strength and sneak attack damage, for a total of 1d4+2+2d6.

Example: the same rogue attacks with a +1 flaming dagger. The +1 enhancement bonus applies to both attack rolls, and he hits both times. The extra damage from the dagger's enhancements is not multiplied, so the rogue deals 1d4+2+1+1d6(fire)+2d6(sneak attack).

Example: a level 6 fighter with OHF, Power Attack, and 16 strength threatens three foes. He full attacks with a longsword while wearing a heavy shield and using Power attack for -3/+3. He makes two attacks at +6 and +1. His first roll hits, and he uses OHF as a free action and hits on the second attack roll, dealing 1d8+6+6 total damage, which is enough to kill his first target. His second attack hits his second foe for 1d8+3+3, but this is not enough damage to drop it. On his next turn he makes the same full attack with power attack for -3/+3, and tagets the wounded foe first. He hits on his first attack in the second round and decides not to use OHF, dealing 1d8+3+3, which is enough to drop the second, already wounded foe. Finally, he makes his second attack and hits the third, unwounded foe. He uses OHF and luckily hits on the second attack roll as a free action, doubling his bonus damage for a total of 1d8+6+6, which is enough to drop the third foe in one swing.

Improved One Handed Fighting [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, One Handed Fighting, BAB +6
Benefit: you may use the benefit of One Handed Fighting a second time per round. This use must be used after one of your iterative attacks with at least a -5 penalty.
Special: A Fighter may select Improved One Handed Fighting as one of his bonus feats.

Greater One Handed Fighting [General]
Prerequisites: Dex 19, One Handed Fighting, Improved One Handed Fighting, BAB +11
Benefit: you may use the benefit of One Handed Fighting a third time per round. This use must be used after one of your iterative attacks with at least a -10 penalty.
Special: A Fighter may select Greater One Handed Fighting as one of his bonus feats.

So, these feats are supposed to let someone catch up to TWF damage with one weapon. You don't take a penalty, but you don't get your weapon or magic weapon damage more than once and you don't have as many chances to hit your opponent since your "extra attacks" only go off after you hit them in the first place. The improved versions keep the diminishing returns penalty of the normal TWF feats, which isn't really a useful feature, but should keep them in line, and also prevent you from doubling up on bonus attacks from Flurry or Haste. You'll notice that I specifically let this work with Power Attack. Hopefully with a way to double their power attack damage this could let sword and board stand up to THF. Well, at least as well as TWF can stand up to THF, which isn't very well, but it's still better than nothing.

Comments, criticism, suggestions? In particular I could use less ambiguous wordings. I want it to work with pretty much any class ability or feat that could give bonus damage to TWF, but without actually just saying that. And if anyone wants to check my horrible fighter example or write up a better one that'd be fine too. And any name suggestions: I don't want to use Einhander or Fencer because those have been used a ton and I definitely don't know my swordfighting enough to use them properly anyway.

This thread inspired by wanting a one handed sneak attack/other bonus dice user after seeing this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155012) class by Samm. Thanks for giving me the nudge to get up and homebrew something.



The new feats should hopefully be a bit easier to read. Strong Arm and Doublestrike seem okay: they both take diminishing returns like TWF and may end up being weaker in the end. Surgeon's Strike is the only one that can be wasted before making the second roll, but it's less restrictive and can still be used with various magic and abilities that function on critical hits. Precise Fighter is the most restrictive in terms of what damage you can increase, but the least restrictive in that you don't have to make any extra rolls. The last two are the ones I'm most worried about, but I'll take input on anything. Interactions with other classes, feats, and abilities are important to make them as widely usable as possible. Ideally you should be able to drop Strong Arm or Doublestrike into a TWF or THF build and have it work just as well (aside from displaced feats).

Strong Arm [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: str 15
Benefit: You have learned how to strike as hard with one arm as most warriors would with two. When making an attack or full attack action with a single melee weapon wielded in one hand, you may double all damage (including bonus dice) from one attack per round by hitting on a second attack roll with the same bonus as a free action. You chose to apply Strong Arm after one of your attacks hits, but before damage is dealt. If you choose not to use this feat on your first hit, you may use it later in your full attack. If you miss with the free action attack roll, or do not use it during your turn, it is wasted. You may also use Strong Arm when throwing a weapon, however when doing so you must choose to use the feat before seeing if your initial attack roll hits. If the attack you choose to use it on misses, the attempt is wasted.

Improved Strong Arm [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: str 17, BAB 6+, Strong Arm
Benefit: You have the strength to make another push against your foes in each attack. You may use Strong Arm twice per turn, but the second use must be triggered by an iterative attack with at least a -5 penalty.

Greater Strong Arm [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: str 19, BAB 11+, Strong Arm, Improved Strong Arm
Benefit: Your weapon arm is nearly tireless, smashing foes left and right. You may use Strong Arm a third time per turn, but the third use must be triggered by an iterative attack with at least a -10 penalty.

Perfect Strong Arm [Epic]
Prerequisites: str 25, Strong Arm, Improved Strong Arm, Greater Strong Arm.
Benefit: Though your study of other styles may have suffered, none dispute that you are a master of fighting with a single hand. You may use Strong Arm on all your iterative attacks in a full attack. You may still only use it when fighting with a single weapon in one hand.


Doublestrike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: dex 15
Benefit: You see the opening after striking your foe and make a second attack in the time it takes most warriors to finish their first one. When making a full attack with a single melee weapon wielded in one hand you may make one extra attack per round. This attack is made at your full base attack bonus, but cannot be made until after one of your other attacks hits. You must decide to use Doublestrike before attacking, and take a -2 penalty on all attacks in a round that you do so.

Triplestrike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisistes: dex 17, BAB 6+, Doublestrike
Benefit: Each attack you make only leaves your foes open for more. You gain a second extra attack from your Doublestrike feat at your full base attack bonus. The second attack cannot be made until at least two other attacks have hit, and you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round that you use Triplestrike.

Quadruplestrike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisistes: dex 19, BAB 11+, Doublestrike, Improved Doublestrike
Benefit: Just one opening can turn the tide of battle in your favor. You gain a third extra attack from your Doublestrike feat at your full base attack bonus. The third attack cannot be made until you hit with three other attacks, and you take a -6 penalty on all attacks in a round that you use Quadruplestrike.

Multistrike [Epic]
Prerequisistes: dex 25, Doublestrike, Improved Doublestrike, Greater Doublestrike
Benefit: You may gain an extra attack each round at your full base attack bonus for every iterative attack you receive. For every extra attack made you take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls made this round, and each extra attack requires another hit before it can be used.


Surgeon's Strike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: dex 13, heal 2 ranks
Benefit: Through study of anatomy and a deft hand you can strike your foes' vitals with the proper tool. Once per round you can declare one of your melee attacks will automatically threaten a critical hit. If the attack hits, roll to confirm the critical hit as normal. If the attack misses, the attempt for the round is wasted. You may only use this feat with weapons that have a base critical modifier of x2, and only when wielding them in one hand.

Improved Surgeon's Strike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisistes: dex 15, heal 4 ranks, BAB 6+
Benefit: By identifying multiple weak points and working quickly you can eviscerate foes even faster. You may attempt to use Surgeon's Strike twice per round.

Greater Surgeon's Strike [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: dex 17, heal 8 ranks, BAB 11+
Benefit: The healers would be ashamed with what you've made of their art. You may attempt to use Surgeon's Strike three times per round.


Focused Style [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Concentration 2 ranks, some form of bonus damage from a feat or class ability
Benefit: When focusing on the one hand guiding your wepaon and a single style of combat, you can improve the results you get from that style. Choose a form of bonus damage you have from a feat or class ability, such as the Power Attack feat or the Sneak Attack ability. When making an attack or full attack action with a single weapon wielded in one hand, you may double all damage you deal using the chosen ability on one attack with that weapon. You may choose to use this ability after hitting a target, but before damage is dealt.

Improved Focused Style [General, Fighter]
Prerequisistes: Concentration 4 ranks, Focused Style, BAB 6+
Benefit: With improved concentration comes the ability to focus your meta-style multiple times in an attack. You may use the benefit of Focused Style twice during your full attack.

Greater Focused Style [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Concentration 8 ranks, Focused Style, Improved Focused Style, BAB 11+
Benefit: Further refinement makes you a master of your chosen style. You may use the benefit of Focused Style three times during your full attack.


Crossbow Terror [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus [any crossbow]
Benefit: When wielding a crossbow with which you have the Weapon Focus feat in two hands you may make your first attack in a round especially deadly. When you take your first attack, instead of rolling once you may roll twice. If both rolls are high enough to hit, the attack counts as a critical hit with a x2 modifier regardless of the weapon's normal threat range and multiplier. If one roll hits, the attack is resolved as normal (and may still threaten a critical hit). If both rolls miss, then the attack misses as normal.

Crossbow Fiend [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus [any crossbow], Crossbow Terror, BAB 6+
Benefit: When using the crossbow Terror feat, you may now roll three attacks in place of your first attack. If all three attacks hit, then the attack counts as a critical hit with a x3 modifier, otherwise it functions as the previous feat.

Crossbow Nightmare [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus [any crossbow], Crossbow Terror, Crossbow Fiend, BAB 11+
Benefit: You make four rolls when using Crossbow Terror. If all four rolls hit the attack is a critical hit with a x4 modifier, otherwise it functions as the previous feats.

Lyndworm
2010-06-20, 07:32 AM
You may also wish to view the Einhander (PHb2) and Graceful Edge (DU128) feats.

Also, the way the feats are currently worded, they apply to Ranged attacks as well. Was this your intention?

Fizban
2010-06-20, 05:40 PM
The Einhander feat in PHBII is just a situational way to get a free feint, and Graceful Edge just gives you a small shield bonus and makes your main hand finessable (as well as requiring a realmshelps search to find). Neither of them, nor any other "one handed fighting" feats I've seen published actually make the style more powerful, at best they'll make up for some of the penalties by giving you some extra AC. Hence the homebrew.

I most definitely did not mean it to be usable with ranged attacks. I'll go fix that now.

For Valor
2010-06-20, 10:38 PM
I most definitely did not mean it to be usable with ranged attacks. I'll go fix that now.

Dude... you totally should. It has absolutely nothing to do with the feat flavor-wise, but it would be wonderful. You should definitely allow it. Or make another feat applying to extra ranged attacks.

Temotei
2010-06-20, 10:43 PM
Dude... you totally should. It has absolutely nothing to do with the feat flavor-wise, but it would be wonderful. You should definitely allow it. Or make another feat applying to extra ranged attacks.

Indeed. Slings need love, too.

Samm
2010-06-21, 02:26 AM
This is pretty nifty. I like it, but I've got a question:

Would the damage apply to creatures invulnerable to critical hits? It sounds rather like precision damage if you ask me, but I'm not sure.

Fiver
2010-06-21, 02:43 AM
Would this count as a Fighter Bonus Feat?

Temotei
2010-06-21, 03:33 AM
Would this count as a Fighter Bonus Feat?

It says [General], so no.

Also, maybe the Dexterity requirements should be a tad lower. I'd just lower every requirement by two Dexterity (13, 15, 17 instead of 15, 17, 19). Alternatively, change it to none, 13, 15.

I always feel bad when a player's concept gets trashed for a different one because of bad rolls.

Fizban
2010-06-21, 03:54 AM
Samm: that depends on what type of damage you're using. This feat doesn't provide any extra damage, just like TWF doesn't. If you have precision damage like sneak attack or skirmish, then it will give you extra precision damage by multiplying your sneak attack or skirmish. If you have non-precision damage from power attack then it will give you extra non-precision damage by multiplying your power attack.

Fiver: I didn't even think about that, but of course fighters should get to take it. I'll add that to the special section the same as it is for TWF.

Temotei: It has the exact same requirements as TWF. I agree that the dex requirements are huge, but I'm trying to keep the feats as straight a conversion possible so they are usable in any game. To that end I'd rather not reduce the requirements, because if I did that I'd want to add an extra houserule about reducing the requirements for TWF so keep it fair. Short answer: if you're willing to reduce the requirements for TWF, then reduce them for this feat as well (and I'd totally support you). If you think the feats aren't good enough mechanically as is then I could see lowering the requirements for that reason, but I haven't heard any input like that yet.

On slings: while I'd like a way to take crossbow shots better myself, ranged weapons wouldn't make any sense at all for this feat. The "hit then hit again" mechanic could work for a lot of things including ranged attacks, but I think they would need their own feat line.

Fiver
2010-06-21, 04:46 AM
I have to agree with Fizban. Also, if you don't mind Fizban, I used this feat tree as Combat Style bonuses for my Youxia class.

Ashtagon
2010-06-21, 05:19 AM
Just to be clear, is this meant for true "one hander" fighting, or is it meant to include "sword and board" fighters too?

Fizban
2010-06-21, 08:28 AM
It's meant to include sword and board as well, which is one of the reasons I made an example with it. That's why I didn't restrict it to finessable weapons either. I thought it could both give a one handed fighting style rogue or swashbuckler a chance against TWF damage, and also give a sword and board fighter a chance against THF damage. In both cases the more powerful style effectively ends up doubling it's bonus damage, TWF giving you two sneak-able attacks for every one you'd normally have, and THF giving you twice as much power attack damage as you would with one hand on the weapon. So a feat that lets you double your bonus damage when fighting with one weapon could fix both at once.

So short answer, yes to sword and board. I'm open to naming suggestions. Maybe just One Weapon Fighting even.

Fizban
2010-06-23, 08:05 AM
One handed bump?

The more I think about it the more the disconnect between the mechanics and the idea annoys me. I like the idea of aiming so well/striking so hard that you can double your damage a few times each turn, but the mechanics that keep it balanced favor the one strike/two cuts flavor. The only way I can think of to make it into more of a single attack is making it so you have to decide to use the feat before making your attack, so that if it misses you waste the opportunity for the turn, but that would make it waaaay less powerful.

The main effect of the feat is beginning to bug me as well. I think it would be easier to just double all the damage, but then I might as well just make it a separate attack, which isn't what I'd originally wanted. I don't think bonus damage is even a defined term which makes it hard to have a short feat description. Originally I had it not doubling strength because that's something you always get, but then that made it hard to tell if things like the Shadow Blade feat were bonus damage or not (since Shadow Blade stacks with your strength).

There's got to be more than a few people that are interested in fighting without having all your hands holding a weapon.

imp_fireball
2010-06-23, 05:39 PM
For balance, you should state that if any of the two attack rolls miss, then the attack counts as missing. This way, the player won't always be choosing to make this attack.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 05:44 PM
Maybe a bonus for rolling higher than you needed to? As a way to take advantage of the fact that you're not taking TWF penalties and not Power Attacking, I mean.

Fizban
2010-06-23, 05:58 PM
For balance, you should state that if any of the two attack rolls miss, then the attack counts as missing. This way, the player won't always be choosing to make this attack.
That's something I specifically don't want to do. Would a TWFer ever not take his extra attacks?


Maybe a bonus for rolling higher than you needed to? As a way to take advantage of the fact that you're not taking TWF penalties and not Power Attacking, I mean.
The lack of TWF penalties is because you aren't getting your weapon damage if you make the second roll, and because you have to hit before you can use the feat. TWF gives you extra rolls: if you make two attack rolls even at a penalty you're more likely to hit at least once. But to use OHF you have to hit on your main attacks first. With one attack and the feat, TWF makes two rolls, hits zero, one, one, or two times. OHF ends up hitting zero, zero, one, or two times, because if his one normal attack misses he never gets the second roll for OHF.

I don't get what you mean about not Power Attacking, if you use it you take the penalty and get the chance to double it like everything else.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 06:14 PM
You sounded like you weren't happy with the current mechanics of these feats. I offered an idea for an alternative - instead of rolling twice, every time you roll, I dunno, 5 higher than their AC, you get more damage. Or something.

Basically, you're putting your Attack bonus to use - Power Attack is for 2h weapons, TWF is for dual-wielding, this is for you. PA allows 2h-ers to sacrifice attack for damage, TWF allows dual-wielders to take a penalty to gain another attack, this could allow you to do extra damage for not taking a penalty to attack, that is, an advantage for not using one of those features.

Fizban
2010-06-23, 07:17 PM
Oh, I see what you saying now. I like that, but it doesn't use any existing mechanics, instead you just have to make new ones. There was a nice homebrew about "shifts" that did just that, but it made a good example of how much easier it is to get attack bonus and what you have to do to make sure it doesn't get out of hand. Giving a multiplier based on how much more you hit them by would be too chaotic in my opinion, easy to break or impossible to use.

Maybe I should state my goal more plainly. I want to give people a way to use existing mechanics like sneak attack and power attack to deal lots of damage without using two weapon fighting or two handed weapons, preferably without just printing Flurry of Blows: the Feat.

It's also worth noting that I keep thinking of the critical hit mechanics whenever I look at what I've got. But a feat that lets you auto-threat every turn would be a bad idea with high multiplier weapons, wouldn't work with sneak attack, and would leave a one-handed power attack style vulnerable to non-crit creatures when two-handed is not. I don't think that's very reasonable when you're already paying more feats.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-23, 07:21 PM
Hmm... Actually, increasing the critical threat range and critical multiplier makes sense for one-hander builds; I mean, the Rapier is the weapon of choice for images of the concept, right? And adding a feat that allows precision damage dice to be multiplied would also work well - it's probably not worth it to a TWF-er since they don't crit often enough (maybe; depends how you balance it), but to a 1WF-er it might be worth it because they're also focusing on the crit threat/multiplier.

An idea, anyway.

Fizban
2010-06-24, 01:56 AM
Hmm, there's another idea. Could let you auto-threat 1/round, but only with a base weapon that already has an 19-20 or better threat range. This assumes that all WoTC published weapons have only threat range or multiplier and not both, which I think is right (there might be one or two that I don't know about). That would give a pretty concise rule if there aren't any weapons that would force you to add extra clauses. Would make a cool feat of it's own even if it's not quite what I'm looking for here. Then there's a feat that gives you your sneak attack damage whenever you crit, so together they'd let you reliably sneak attack without flanking. It still wouldn't give you any extra sneak damage per turn, but it would be quite good for power attack since the power attack damage is a constant that gets multiplied.

It'd be a cool feat on it's own but it still doesn't work for both at once. Maybe I should give up on trying to have one feat line for both sneak attack and power attack, and make two different feats: a double strike for sneak attack and an auto-threat for power attack.

Another way to simplify it would be to make them choose what type of damage when they take the feat, so you'd take OHF: Power Attack, OHF: Sneak Attack, or OHF: whatever other feat/ability. I think that would be the best way to cut down on confusion, but it makes the feat less versatile. I'm really stuck on wanting to be able to take any TWF build, replace the TWF feats with OHF feats, and have it all work, but restricting it to one feat or ability means you can't make as good of use of other things that might come up. Maybe I'll type up some new prototype feats and add them to the OP later.

Fizban
2010-06-25, 11:03 PM
And bump for new content added to OP. Bumping makes me feel slimy, but I think this one's worth it. The only idea I didn't really address is ranged weapons, and that's only because they don't fit with a one-handed focus (it's easier aiming with two hands after all), but I'll save that for another day.

Knaight
2010-06-25, 11:10 PM
Strong Arm [General, Fighter]

I wouldn't require a full attack. It should require the attack action to prevent Warblade abuse, or maybe charging, but a full attack is too restrictive.

As for ranged weapons, most projectiles need two hands. A javelin throw, dagger throw, axe throw, whatever is done with one. Then even in projectiles there is the sling and atlatl. With the notable exception of the atlatl, all of these are in core.

Fizban
2010-06-27, 03:15 AM
You don't think that would make it too good then? I've been requiring a full attack since I'm comparing it to TWF, which requires a full attack. Letting it work on a single attack makes your single attack much more powerful than that of a THF or TWFer. Although now that I think about it, that would give the feat a pull of it's own besides just trying to replace the other combat styles, so I'll go ahead and do that.

Strong Arm will now be usable without taking a full attack unless someone's got a good reason to keep it restricted to full attacks.

For ranged weapons: are you suggesting I open up Strong Arm to throwing weapons as well? I don't think it would work with the "extra push" method, but I could put in a line for throwing weapons where you declare before making the attack roll. So I will.

Milskidasith
2010-06-29, 02:59 AM
Strong Arm: It's very powerful, especially for precision damage types, but it is a heavy feat investment.

Multistrike line: It's probably not that useful... in fact, it's probably strictly worse than strong arm (take an attack penalty, requires you to hit to activate anyway and roll another, etc. Basically, you'd get doubled damage if they all hit, and it requires more rolls, but all rolls are at a penalty, while strong arm just has you make extra rolls.)

Surgeon's Strike: It's very, very powerful when combined with Lightning Maces (Three free bonus attacks per round and the power of criticals? Nice!). Or, you know, Vorpal. Anything with a head gets instagibbed.

Precise Fighter: It's a pretty powerful ability for sneak attack types, but if you're power attacking you'd just use a two handed sword and save your feat investment.

Fizban
2010-06-29, 07:11 AM
Thank you for your reply :smallsmile:. I wasn't thinking about Lightning Maces, but then again I usually try not to :smallannoyed:. Vorpal could be problematic, but you still need the natural 20 after choosing to use the ability so I don't think it would be as bad as Lighting Maces (Lighting Maces + Bless Weapon/Dolorous Blow :smalleek:). Still, comparing to spells for balance is just asking for trouble. I could change the base weapon requirement from x2 crit to 19-20 or better crit, which would rule out maces (although not Aptitude weapons) if that would help: that's what came to mind originally but I was afraid there would be a published 19-20/x3 weapon which would be way more powerful than intended.

I'm quite sure that the Multistrike Line is worse than the Strong Arm line, but Strong Arm should usually be harder to qualify for with precision types so I'm not too worried about that. Strong Arm's received a few boosts so it sounds like Multistrike could use the same. The only thing separating it from a pile of flurries is the "combo" effect so I'd be inclined to reduce the penalties first. I'll wait and see what the others think first before I make any more changes though.

And an extra smiley for ending my sentence with a preposition :smallcool:.

Milskidasith
2010-06-29, 01:31 PM
Thank you for your reply :smallsmile:. I wasn't thinking about Lightning Maces, but then again I usually try not to :smallannoyed:. Vorpal could be problematic, but you still need the natural 20 after choosing to use the ability so I don't think it would be as bad as Lighting Maces (Lighting Maces + Bless Weapon/Dolorous Blow :smalleek:). Still, comparing to spells for balance is just asking for trouble. I could change the base weapon requirement from x2 crit to 19-20 or better crit, which would rule out maces (although not Aptitude weapons) if that would help: that's what came to mind originally but I was afraid there would be a published 19-20/x3 weapon which would be way more powerful than intended.

I'm quite sure that the Multistrike Line is worse than the Strong Arm line, but Strong Arm should usually be harder to qualify for with precision types so I'm not too worried about that. Strong Arm's received a few boosts so it sounds like Multistrike could use the same. The only thing separating it from a pile of flurries is the "combo" effect so I'd be inclined to reduce the penalties first. I'll wait and see what the others think first before I make any more changes though.

And an extra smiley for ending my sentence with a preposition :smallcool:.

Vorpal works on a confirmed critical hit, not a critical hit confirmed on a natural 20. It does say you need a "natural 20" followed by a confirmed critical hit, so you could argue that vorpal doesn't work with autocrits, but it's somewhat iffy.

Fizban
2010-06-29, 07:08 PM
That's what I meant: you need to roll the natural 20 on your attack roll even if you don't have to worry about confirming the crit. It should work with the feat, but it works even more easily with a crit-confirming spell.

Witty Username
2010-06-30, 12:22 PM
that's what came to mind originally but I was afraid there would be a published 19-20/x3 weapon which would be way more powerful than intended.




They have, keen. yay auto crit with scythe!:smalltongue:
2d4 19-20(keen)/x4. recommend using a unmodified crit range clause

Edit: needs monkey grip but it works

Fizban
2010-07-01, 02:34 AM
How did that go again? *Ahem* Monkey grip does not work that way! (a quick search should give you plenty of threads on it). But anyway, that's why I used the phrase "base weapon". The base scythe, ore more appropriately a pick, has a x4 crit, so it wouldn't qualify for either. There was an eberron weapon with 19-20/x4 crit (talanta sarresh?), but the errata fixed it to a normal x4.

Auto critting with a scythe is a build I'd love to try though. The spell Dolorous Blow is basically a shorter duration version of Keen Edge that also auto confirms your crits. A few extra attacks here, a few luck rerolls there...

Edit: I was just trying to make a dual Dart-Thruster sneak attack/sudden strike build, and while lamenting how much ranged sneaks suck on their own I realized I could get a very nice ranged sneak feat if I simply removed the melee-only restriction from Precise Fighter. You'd have to get crafty with thrown weapons, crossbows, or other stuff (like say, a Dart Thruster) to use it, but I don't know of any way to boost ranged sneak attack other than just Rapid Shot/Improved Manyshot and pray. Of course is does go against my own earlier opinion that a ranged feat should use both hands, but I'm willing to eat my words since I think it's cool. Yes, I can be shallow :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2010-07-02, 09:21 AM
To me, these feats seem very duplicative. Each of them essentially does the same exact thing - adding extra attacks - using slightly different and somewhat convoluted mechanics. (Mathematically, adding the bonus damage, adding an extra attack, and adding a critical hit are all very similar).

I would just consolidate them into a single line of feats. For example:

One Handed Fighting [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: Dexterity 15
Benefit: Once per round when you successfully make an attack with a manufactured weapon wielded in one hand, you gain an extra attack at the same attack bonus. On any round in which you use this feat, you may not attack with your other hand (or hands) or use a shield (including animated shields), and thus you may not use this feat in conjunction with Two Weapon Fighting.

Improved One Handed Fighting [General, Fighter]
Prerequisite: +6 BAB, Dexterity 17, One Handed Fighting
You may gain a bonus attack from the One Handed Fighting feat one additional time per round, for a total of twice per round.

And so on. As written, this would also incorporate thrown weapons, crossbows, and one handed shield bash attacks.

Fizban
2010-07-03, 02:17 AM
That's a pretty accurate description. I started with just one set of feats based on duplicating the effects of extra attacks, then I decided I wanted more flavors (extra attacks vs. stronger attacks and so on), so I made more feats based on the same idea but using different mechanics. At risk of sounding like I'm just agreeing with you, the list was indeed starting to get rather long. And they do get more and more convoluted attempting to be separate, which isn't usually a good thing. I still like the idea of a feat for increasing damage with a special attack and a feat for automatic critical hits, but I don't know how I'd balance them without limiting them to X/round and requiring extra attack rolls.

I did just have a bit of a duh moment though: beefing up one handed power attack is as easy as just making a feat that says "you deal damage with power attack as if you were using both hands", and it won't be any better than Improved Buckler Defense. With that I don't really need Strong Arm, since it's meant more for fighters, so I can nix that whole line with a single feat and still make the fighter part of my brain happy. I like the way you worded the one handed fighting feat, so I'll use that instead of the Doublestrike line.

That just leaves the Focused Style and Crossbow Terror lines. I think I've got a way to simplify Focused Style but I'm not sure if it will still feel repetitive, so I'll post it and see what you think :smallbiggrin:. The Crossbow feats seemed brilliant when I wrote them up so I'm not surprised they look so clunky in hindsight :smallsigh: I do want a crossbow feat that let's you snipe instead of just attacking a gajillion times per turn, but I'm once again not sure how to do it without making them feel duplicative (the big flaw of basing off something else for balance is that it ends up looking the same I guess). I think repeating crossbows are great and multiple attacks would be fine, but when longbows already fire just as fast the only other direction to take it is fewer attacks with more power. I guess I'll just axe the crossbow feats for now, since this thread was originally about melee anyway.