(Potentially) Playable Sphinx 3.5 [PEACH]

[Nada Rakshasa]

I still remember my first time looking through the Monster Manual (I found the PHBfor a race to play, only to have a fellow player tell me that no, I could not reasonably play a sphinx. This left me understandably disappointed. I'd shelved the idea until today, when I threw this together. I was hoping that more game-design/balance oriented playgrounders might have some thoughts on this creature. I ran it by my boyfriend (a generally more game-design/balance oriented person), who told me that it looked okay, but may have done so that I would let him get back to his movie. :smallconfused: So here I am, getting a second opinion (although more would be preferable).

This creature is the size of a war pony and has a tawny leonine body, great falcon wings, and a humanoid face. Neosphinxes are usually 6-8 feet from head to rump; Their wingspan usually double that.
Unlike some other sphinxes, neosphinxes come in both genders.

Neosphinx characters possess the following racial traits.
+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom.
Speed: A neosphinx’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Size and Type: As magical beast, a neosphinx is proficient with its natural weapons only. They have no proficiency with any armor or shield.
As Medium creatures, neosphinxes have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. However, see the powerful build ability description below for more details.
Flight (Ex): Neosphinxes have a flying speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability, as long as they do not carry more than a medium load, are not wearing Heavy armor, and are not fatigued or exhausted. On average, Neosphinx wings have a span equal to twice their body length; they cannot fly in an area that does not allow them to fully extend their wings.
A neosphinx may make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the neosphinx must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A neosphinx can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage. A neosphinx can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line.
Powerful Build: The physical stature of a neosphinx lets her function in many ways as if she were one size category larger. Whenever a neosphinx is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the neosphinx is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to her. A neosphinx is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect her. However, her space and reach remain those of a creature of her actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Quadruped: As quadrupeds, neosphinxes have a +4 bonus on checks to resist bull rush and trip attacks. They have a carrying capacity 1-1/2 times greater than normal for their Strength. They must wear barding instead of normal armor and cannot wear boots designed for humanoids.
Neosphinxes are unable to hold items, such as wands, weapons, and shields.
Low-Light Vision: A neosphinx can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Darkvision: Neosphinxes can see in the dark out to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and neosphinxes can function just fine with no light at all.
Racial Hit Dice: A neosphinx begins with three levels of magical beast, which provide 3d10 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +3, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: A neosphinx’s magical beasts levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival. Neosphinxes have a +2 racial bonus on Intimidate, Spot and Survival checks.
Racial Feats: A neosphinx’s magical beast levels give it two feats. A neosphinx receives Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.
Natural Armor: +2
Natural Attacks: A neosphinx is proficient with its claw (1d6) attacks.
Pounce (Ex): If a neosphinx charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): A neosphinx that pounces onto a creature can make two rake attacks with its hind legs. The extra rake attacks deal normal damage for her claw attack + 1/2 any Strength bonus.
Languages: Neosphinxes speak Sphinx and Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Fighter/Swordsage.
Level adjustment: +2.

I wanted to focus on the physicality of sphinxes, moreso than the intellectual aspect. For this reason, I opted to not racially commit them to the obsession with riddles, as that seemed like more of a quirk of an individal sphinx than a truly racial trait.

Edit 6/22: Made further alterations. Mostly reduced some numbers and consolidated some info. Going with ECL 8. Gonna try to run some tests with them and see how that goes.
Edit 6/23: Some more changes. Added a skill Bonus
Edit 6/24: Some fairly extensive changes this time. Tweaked overall ECL, skill bonuses, and other aspects.

[MythMage]

I think you generally have to have hands/arms/opposable thumbs to be a monstrous humanoid. I also think your sphinx should probably have only a +1 level adjustment, at most +2, since it has the major disadvantage of being unable to wield magic weapons despite favoring fighter tactics. Moreover, its special abilities aren't so good that the critter will totally overshadow a 5th-level fighter when it only has 4 HD.

How much damage do its rake attacks do?

Otherwise, it seems pretty solid. Kinda bland, but that's more a problem with sphinx mechanics in general, rather than with your interpretation in particular. ;)

[DragoonWraith]

If you're interested, I created an ECL 1 Sphinx race here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147068). I think the Riddle mechanic is interesting, anyway.

[Temotei]

A level adjustment of +3 and four racial hit dice is too high, most likely. I'd lower it to either just LA +2 or LA +1 and a racial hit die. Then again, I've never been too great with level adjustment. Always slightly off...:smallamused:

Wait for the others, though. They'll probably say the same. :smalltongue:

There are a few things you could do to make them a bit more magical in nature:

Add Desert Wind-style attacks
Add a flight ability, such as creating gusts of wind by flapping
Give them spell-like abilities
Allow them to enchant their natural attacks without extra costs


I'm drawing a blank, otherwise, but I'm sure there are some other things to do. Depending on whether you add something or not, and how powerful that thing is, you may have to adjust my above comments on level adjustment and racial hit dice.

[Nada Rakshasa]

MythMage, Temotei: Thank you for the insight. I'm still uncertain of some aspects of the concept, but your thoughts have pointed me in a direction that will hopefully round out the build some.
Also, I added the Rake damage (1d6 + 1/2 Str mod).

DragoonWraith: Thanks. I did actually come across your thread in my search for similar themes. And would have responded to it, were I not afraid of being dubbed a thread necromancer. ^^ I think your concept is interesting, but it's a bit too minimalistic for my Sphinx-playing needs, if that makes sense (no offense intended). It's a cool (and much more reasonable) build, but it's also heading in a different direction from where I'm intending.

[DracoDei]

It is correct that you should add opposible thumbs explicitly... I do not, however, think it is as big a deal about being able to wield weapons as others have said. If the character is only as bipedal as a bear, then that works I think... certainly never stopped dragons. I actually created a prize (http://i449.photobucket.com/albums/qq216/alchemyprime/RealDracoDeiTrophy.jpg) winning pair of dragons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6377600&postcount=32) who had everything from cross-bows to scrolls to wine-bottles full of acid in the arsenals they carried around. Of course, it didn't hurt that they could hover due to good maneuverability, and would almost never actually touch the ground in a fight, leaving their fore-limbs available for wielding objects.


DragoonWraith: Thanks. I did actually come across your thread in my search for similar themes. And would have responded to it, were I not afraid of being dubbed a thread necromancer.
[public service announcement]That is what PMing the author is for. In some cases, people should even creating a new thread, with a link to the old thread at the top. [/public service announcement]

[DragoonWraith]

The thread's also less than 3 months old, so it wouldn't have been thread necromancy to begin with.


Anyway, no offense at all, Nada, totally understand. Just wanted to make sure you'd seen it in case you were interested.

[Nada Rakshasa]

Thanks for understandin', 'Wraith. I 'preciate your help.

'though the forum rules indicated that if a thread was a month and half old and beyond page three, that it falls under the realm of thread necromancy. I did check on that before I opted for the new thread. But in the future, I will remember in the future to communicate with the previous author.

[Nada Rakshasa]

It's been suggested to me that I opt for some sort of Riddle/Puzzle-based compulsion in an effort to reduce their LA. It's a combination of Bestow Curse and Lesser Geas. It still feels off to me, on a number of levels. :smallannoyed:

Riddling Curse (Su): Due to a divine curse placed upon their race, if confronted or challenged with a riddle or puzzle, a neosphinx is compelled to solve it, devoting all of their mental faculties to finding the answer. They can make a Will save (DC 25) to resist this compulsion, but even if they succeed this, they take a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks. The Riddling Curse cannot be dispelled, nor can it be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, remove curse, or wish spell. If they are unable to solve the riddle or puzzle immediately, only by meditating upon the riddle for 4 (?) hours a day can a neosphinx avoid this penalty.

Too much? Not enough? Thoughts? :smallconfused:

Should I opt to pursue this option, I intend to give them a +2 racial bonus to Knowledge (Riddles).

[DragoonWraith]

What's the DC to solve the riddle? Also, the penalty on a successful save is very high.

[Nada Rakshasa]

That's part of why I'm not fond of this ability (or the whole riddle business). Different DMs handle riddles differently. Some will let you get away with a Intelligence or Knowledge check, other prefer to let the player work their way thru it out of character. I'm not sure out how to narrow that aspect for DM preference. So I've left it open to the DM to determine. Prolly not practical.

The DC is intentionally high (and like all of the numerical values at this time, changeable), to indicate that a neosphinx must work their way through the challenge, regardless of how long it takes.

I don't care for it overall, to be honest. Just trying to balance things out a bit.

[DragoonWraith]

The save DC is fine, actually, I meant the penalties that you take even if you save. -4 to all of that is a lot. -2 would be more reasonable, I think.

Anyway, I'd say this race is pretty weak, mechanically. You've probably got the RHD and LA where they canonically are supposed to be, but the racial features are not worth 8 levels of class features. Even as-is, I'd reduce the RHD quite a bit, and I'd strongly consider things like using the Raptoran's scaling flight model (Races of the Wild), dropping Powerful Build (which seems kind of out of place, but may be worth keeping for a martial type), lowering the ability modifiers, natural armor, or losing the freebie rake or pounce to lower the LA.

Assuming you want a martial type Sphinx, probably keep Powerful Build and Pounce (they're very good, and difficult-ish to get), the Natural Weapons and Rake, drop down to Raptoran-style flight, and take... 3 RHD and a +2 LA? Add the Curse on top and you can probably be +0 LA.


As a comparison, at ECL 6, assuming above changes but no curse:
{table=head]Goliath | Sphinx
12 + 4d12 + 5*Con HP (5 HD) | 10 + 2d10 + 1d12 + 4*Con HP (4 HD)
LA +1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 4 | RHD 3/LA +2/Warblade 1
+5 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con | +5 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis
Powerful Build | Powerful Build
Pounce | Pounce
Land speed 30 ft. | Land speed 40 ft.
- | Fly speed 40 ft. (Average) (Con mod rounds)
Free Accelerated Climbing | -
- | Stability
+2 Sense Motive | -
Normal Vision | Low-light vision, Darkvision
- | 2x 1d6 + Str Claw attacks
- | 1d6 + 1/2 Str Rake
32 + 8*Int skills) | 16 + 7*Int skills
Initiator Level 5 | Initiator Level 2.5
3rd level Maneuvers | 1st level Maneuvers
6 M. Known, 4 M. Readied, 2 Stances | 3 M. Known, 3 M. Readied, 1 Stance
Battle Clarity | Battle Clarity
Weapon Aptitude | Weapon Aptitude
Uncanny Dodge | -
Battle Ardor | -[/table]

[Siosilvar]

-table-

You missed the d12 hit die on both Barbarian and Warblade?

Looking at the stack-up, +1 LA is probably okay for melee, but how does it fare as a gish?

[DragoonWraith]

As a gish? Poorly; you've lost 5 spellcasting levels, that's awful.

Anyway, I hadn't missed the Barbarian's d12 (hence the 12 + bit on the Goliath side), but you're right, I'd forgotten that Warblades get it too.

Also, based on a thread I just made out of curiosity, 3 levels of Incarnate would get the Goliath flight, so I'm going to rework it to get that, for more direct comparison.

[Nada Rakshasa]

Ah, I misunderstood. I guess I just want the Curse to stay relevant at higher levels, if I opt to keep it. But you're right, I think.

I had considered using the Raptoran-style flight. It just seems... complicated, wordy and not really what I'm looking for.

I agree that it doesn't feel quite like eight levels worth of class features, even if others I've discussed it with have said it seemed mechanically sound as a ECL of 8. The martial aspect is my focus. I would like to get down an ECL of 5 or 6 (3 RHD & 2/3 LA?) or so.

Also, your table-work is an unexpected and appreciated visual aid.

[DragoonWraith]

New Table, after I realized that Dragonborn doesn't negate Powerful Build:
{table=head]Dragonborn Goliath | Sphinx
12 + 5d12 + 6*Con HP (6 HD) | 10 + 2d10 + 2d12 + 5*Con HP (5 HD)
{colsp=2}
Goliath averages 16.5 HP more than Sphinx

LA +1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 5 | RHD 3/LA +2/Warblade 2
+5 Str, -4 Dex, +4 Con | +5 Str, +2 Con, +2 Wis
Powerful Build | Powerful Build
Pounce | Pounce
Land speed 30 ft. | Land speed 40 ft.
Fly speed 30 ft. (Average) (Con mod rounds) | Fly speed 40 ft. (Average) (Con mod rounds)
Glide 30 ft. (Average) | -
+2 dodge AC | -
Frightful Presence Immunity | -
- | Stability
Normal Vision | Low-light vision, Darkvision
- | 2x 1d6 + Str Claw attacks
- | 1d6 + 1/2 Str Rake
BAB +6/+1 | BAB +5
36 + 9*Int skills) | 20 + 8*Int skills
+5 Fort, +2 Ref, +2 Will | +4 Fort, +1 Ref, +1 Will
Rage | -
Initiator Level 6 | Initiator Level 3
3rd level Maneuvers | 2nd level Maneuvers
6 M. Known, 4 M. Readied, 2 Stances | 4 M. Known, 3 M. Readied, 1 Stance
Battle Clarity | Battle Clarity
Weapon Aptitude | Weapon Aptitude
Uncanny Dodge | -
Battle Ardor | -
Bonus Warblade Feat | -[/table]
Honestly, they look startlingly similar, and a Dragonborn Goliath Barbarian/Warblade's not a bad build, but for anything else your race isn't as good. Still, LA buy-off works out that this is probably not bad.

You could probably argue for +2 Natural Armor to match the Dragonborn's +2 Dodge AC, and considering how Flight+Glide works in the Dragonborn's favor, full flight is probably fair. You're still down on Rage, Initiator Level, and a lot of Maneuvers here, but you get a pair of natural attacks, rake, better vision modes... probably ought to get some skill bonuses, though, cuz those are looking bad...

Maybe Favored Class: Warblade, and a Warblade Sphinx adds his Sphinx Racial Hit Dice to his Initiator Level, instead of only half?

[MythMage]

The curse is not a sound method to reduce LA at all. Unless you have so broad a definition of riddle as to include things virtually every adventurer will encounter on a regular basis (and the way you talk about it it seems very unlikely that was your intent), it will not reliably impact play, which means it will not matter enough to justify any reduction in LA.

Also, I recommend you try to reduce LA before you start chopping off HD. Remember that racial HD are not independent of LA - each racial HD is essentially empty levels in terms of class abilities, which means each one is worth a fractional reduction in LA. Having a high LA is always dangerous because important HD-based effects, such as caster level (even if you get racial HD to count toward it via feats) and base attack bonus will always linger behind fellows of your level.

[Nada Rakshasa]

MythMage: I suspected the curse was too focused to be useful for my purposes. And I'd prefer to drop the LA over HD, but if it's a sacrifice that must be made...

'Wraith: So, you're proposing something like this:

NEOSPHINXES AS CHARACTERS
Neosphinx characters possess the following racial traits.
+4 Strength, +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom.
Speed: A neosphinx’s base land speed is 40 feet.
Size and Type: As magical beast, a neosphinx is proficient with its natural weapons only. They have no proficiency with any armor or shield.
As Medium creatures, neosphinxes have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. However, see the powerful build ability description below for more details.
Flight (Ex): Neosphinxes have a flying speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability, as long as they do not carry more than a medium load, are not wearing Heavy armor, and are not fatigued or exhausted. On average, Neosphinx wings have a span equal to twice their body length; they cannot fly in an area that does not allow them to fully extend their wings.
A neosphinx may make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the neosphinx must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A neosphinx can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage. A neosphinx can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line.
Powerful Build: The physical stature of a neosphinx lets her function in many ways as if she were one size category larger. Whenever a neosphinx is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the neosphinx is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to her. A neosphinx is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature's special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect her. However, her space and reach remain those of a creature of her actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.
Quadruped: As quadrupeds, neosphinxes have a +4 bonus on checks to resist bull rush and trip attacks. They have a carrying capacity 1-1/2 times greater than normal for their Strength. They must wear barding instead of normal armor and cannot wear boots designed for humanoids.
Neosphinxes are unable to hold items, such as wands, weapons, and shields.
Low-Light Vision: A neosphinx can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Darkvision: Neosphinxes can see in the dark out to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and neosphinxes can function just fine with no light at all.
Racial Hit Dice: A neosphinx begins with three levels of magical beast, which provide 3d10 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +3, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +3, and Will +1.
Racial Skills: A neosphinx’s magical beasts levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival. Neosphinxes have a +4 racial bonus on Intimidate, Spot and Survival checks.
Racial Feats: A neosphinx’s magical beast levels give it two feats. A neosphinx receives Flyby Attack as a bonus feat.
Natural Armor: +2
Natural Attacks: A neosphinx is proficient with its claw (1d6) attacks.
Pounce (Ex): If a neosphinx charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex): A neosphinx that pounces onto a creature can make two rake attacks with its hind legs. The extra rake attacks deal normal damage for her claw attack + 1/2 any Strength bonus.
Languages: Neosphinxes speak Sphinx and Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Fighter/Warblade.
Level adjustment: +2.

[DragoonWraith]

Yeah, that looks about right to me. I wouldn't make the Warblade thing part of the Favored Class line, though, I'd give a separate feature for that.

Also, I'm not sure it's worth even having the 6 HD limitation on the weaker form of flight - I mean, you start with at least 4 between RHD and the first class level, it'll be two levels before you get it, and you'll be ECL 6 due to LA anyway. It does make a small difference in the balance, but I wonder if it's not better to just pare down some of the very lengthy description of that ability by just granting it no matter the Sphinx's HD.


EDIT: Whoa, I missed the line about being unable to use weapons, shields, or boots. That's rough, very rough. Hrm. Well, magic boots resize to fit the wearer, I believe. You should note that they'll fit themselves to the Sphinx's feet, so they don't lose the Boot slot. Maybe add a way for the Sphinx to attack with all four limbs, to make up for the lack of weapons? It still hurts. A lot. Especially if the Amulet of Natural Attacks isn't in play.

EDIT2: And it dawns on me that Swordsage might be much more appropriate than Warblade. Swordsages are semi-mystical, and so are Sphinxes, and they use Wis, which the Sphinx gets a bonus on. Soo.... Yeah, maybe Swordsage instead of Warblade.

[Nada Rakshasa]

Altered again. Yeah, the Gliding/Flight combo just seemed like a ... wordier route to the same destination.

Yeah, I opted to maintain the "Sphinxes have feline extremities (i.e. paws)" aspect. It was one of my main factors in my attempting to mitigate the LA (Also, I think it just makes sense). However, with Pounce and Rake, they're able to make use of their forelimbs and hind-limbs on an attack, for a total of four attacks on a charge. Also, in regard to equipment, WotC did set up some information on equipment slots for quadrupeds:
Animal Item Slots

Although it's easy to imagine an animal benefiting from magic equipment beyond a simple saddle and a suit of barding, fitting a mount's physiology to the list of item slots available to characters is not an easy task. Try the following variant list of item slots for quadruped animals (and other monsters when appropriate).


One skull cap or helm
One pair of lenses or goggles
One collar
One saddle blanket or vest
One saddle or jacket
One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches
One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders
One pair foreleg bracers
One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts
Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves
One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts


Having looked over ToB a bit this evening, yeah, Warblade does seem a bit more appropriate for sphinxes.

[DragoonWraith]

The natural attacks you're getting are better at low levels than weapons (not enough money for enhancing, not enough BAB for iteratives), but by mid-to-high levels that's going to really hurt.

[Nada Rakshasa]

There are options for increasing one's number of attacks with natural weapons (i.e. the "Rapid Strike" feats from the Draconomicon). It'd involved devoting a feat or two, but it could be improved, somewhat.

Also, I've been reconsidering the 'sphinx's flight ability. I guess I've not been as open to input on that point as I should have been. The Raptoran glide/flight ability is more reasonable for an already potent creature (even if it makes their stat block even longer. :smallsigh:).