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Clovis
2010-06-22, 05:34 AM
I am writing a CE demigod of a mortal origin: a shadowelf bestowed with divinity by Ao for services rendered. I was wondering if he could gain more devoters -- and therefore more power as measured by divine ranks -- by gaining followers among demons. BoVD and Fiendish Codex are a bit unclear on this issue.

Salbazier
2010-06-22, 05:47 AM
Since when Ao grants anything to mortal?

If there's a god among demons some them may worship him, but I don't think that count for divine rank. Otherwise no god will bother with mortals at all.

Eldan
2010-06-22, 05:50 AM
That would likely depend on the demon in question. The more powerful ones are quasi-deities themselves, but the lesser ones? If you can convince them to worship you, no problem.

Angelmaker
2010-06-22, 05:52 AM
The question is: Should he be able to? Which consequences does it have?

If he should be able to, then yes. Do you really need rules for this? If it is for story purposes: Why, go for it.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 05:59 AM
Since when Ao grants anything to mortal?


He chooses to grant Cyric and Mystra divinity after they return the tablets of fate- not primarily because of that, but because deities have died and their roles need filling.

Salbazier
2010-06-22, 06:02 AM
Oh, yeah I forgot those two.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 06:09 AM
There's also him talking to Elminster in book 2 of the Shadow of the Avatar trilogy, and in War In Tethyr, he speaks (once) to a paladin, who is fighting a false cult of Ao, and whose companion has died- resurrecting the paladin's companion and showing approval of the paladin's actions.

That said, him communicating to mortals who don't end up as gods at some point, is exceptionally rare.

Clovis
2010-06-22, 06:19 AM
Ao bestowing divinity happened at the end of a campaign. Our long-time gaming group disbanded and the GM thought that he'd never see the players or PCs again so he elevated them all to demigods for saving other deities being held captive by Thanatos. I've been writing the story of this demigod ever since and, as luck would have it, some of us reconvened under the same GM, so our demigods are actually back in the game. So, DM fiat in the first place and now I need to make this demigod pc stronger to be able to help my followers to conquer the elven nation :smallbiggrin:. His followers are hard at it and I've got to keep my face straight when our current PCs are hearing news about it.
Mystara campaign, not very many homebrewn rules apart from a few demigods. That's why I asked if there are references for demons worshiping. I know it can be houseruled, but a diplomacy check against a reluctant DM has a DC of one gazillion...
Anyway, thanks for any info!

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 06:22 AM
While I can easily imagine demons worshipping demon princes (which can act as conduits for the Abyss to grant divine power) in FC1, demons are extremely opposed to the gods in general.

That said, if the god has a strong affinity with the demonic (such as Lolth) it might be more plausible.

Mjoellnir
2010-06-22, 06:27 AM
I may be crazy but I think that a god needs actual mortal worshipers. Otherwise gods could sustain themselves through their petitioners and outsider servants and there wouldn't be any risk of dieing from lack of worship unless his realm gets annihilated.

Clovis
2010-06-22, 06:34 AM
That said, if the god has a strong affinity with the demonic (such as Lolth) it might be more plausible.

Hmm, forgot to mention that bit of information: He is a former worshiper and now ally of Lolth, who of course uses him for her own purposes. The GM and I agreed that he is not subservient to Lolth, ie does not send her power through worship. Hence strong affinity to demons.

The point that if gods could rely on outsider worship, mortal worship would not be needed so much is a good one, though.

Eldan
2010-06-22, 08:05 AM
While I can easily imagine demons worshipping demon princes (which can act as conduits for the Abyss to grant divine power) in FC1, demons are extremely opposed to the gods in general.
.

Really? Interesting. Seems like I'll have to read the FCs one day. I only knew the Daemons doing that. (Stupid upstart spawn of mortal worship)

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 10:36 AM
Hmm, forgot to mention that bit of information: He is a former worshiper and now ally of Lolth, who of course uses him for her own purposes. The GM and I agreed that he is not subservient to Lolth, ie does not send her power through worship. Hence strong affinity to demons.

Sounds a bit like a male counterpart of some of the other ascended mortal drow deities- Zinzarena, or Kiaransalee.

Selvatarm doesn't really count- since he was the offspring of deities. However, since he gained some of his power by slaying a demon lord (Zanasu- a spider demon) he might be a good parallel example.

If this demigod has taken over a demonic realm, he might make a good patron for demonic clerics.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-22, 11:18 AM
I don't think Demons really have it in them to worship with anything approaching genuine-ness. You could certainly bribe, cajoal or force them into serving you, of course, but I don't think they'd really make a worth-while bunch of followers.

I kind of think of it along the lines of, well, they're not mortal. They've seen beyond the veil, and understand to fundamentally that the difference between a God and a Demon Prince is largely semantics.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 11:45 AM
It would probably be more a case of the demon exploiting a source of power, than real devotion. Still, demonic clerics of a demonic god don't seem that implausible.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-22, 12:16 PM
In Planescape, at least, demons would be creatures of belief, and being formed from worship would probably not worship other things.

Mnemnosyne
2010-06-22, 12:17 PM
I don't know if there is a specific 3.5 reference that deals with this, I've never read one. However in the 2nd Edition boxed set, Hellbound: The Blood War, it specifically covers fiend priests.


A fiend priest got to where it is by making a pact with an evil god, pledging to do the deity's bidding in exchange for raw power. Most often, a would-be priest who strikes such a bargain is bent on exacting revenge on a powerful enemy. The deal involves more service than worship - fiends never take up a god's robes out of true faith or sincere belief.

While that doesn't cover fiend worshipers, the note about true faith or sincere belief would seem to cover that part. In order to gain power from worshipers, presumably a god must have them actually have some degree of sincere faith or belief.

In my opinion, I don't think any innately outer-planes races (fiends, celestials, modrons, slaadi, rilmani, etc) are capable of granting divine power to gods, they're essentially outside that framework. We should also remember that the fiends as races are older than the gods, pretty much. At the very least, they think they are, given that pretty much all the individuals old enough to actually have been around at the time on either side are gone.

If a fiend were to gain mortal worshipers of its own, as they sometimes do, I expect it would be able to enter into a bargain with a god to transfer those worshipers' power to the true god, while receiving something in exchange. That seems to be the most likely potential situation for a god getting divine power from fiends. Assuming the fiend doesn't have aspirations of becoming an actual deity (many of them would not want to - they know well the gods, their power, but also their limitations, and while some of them have no issues with that, others wouldn't accept the limitations that comes with being a god, such as acting within your own portfolio) this arrangement would be beneficial to both sides.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 12:24 PM
At the very least, they think they are, given that pretty much all the individuals old enough to actually have been around at the time on either side are gone.

The demonic obyrith lords (Dagon, Pale Night, Pazuzu, Obox-ob) are probably among the few from that era that are free and powerful. Most obyrith lords tend to be semi-dead, or imprisoned.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-22, 12:31 PM
If a fiend were to gain mortal worshipers of its own, as they sometimes do, I expect it would be able to enter into a bargain with a god to transfer those worshipers' power to the true god, while receiving something in exchange. That seems to be the most likely potential situation for a god getting divine power from fiends.
The Lilitu in... Fiendish Codex I? do just that, they revel in corrupting the faithful into accidentally worshiping a demon lord.

Clovis
2010-06-22, 02:50 PM
Sounds a bit like a male counterpart of some of the other ascended mortal drow deities- Zinzarena, or Kiaransalee.

Selvatarm doesn't really count- since he was the offspring of deities. However, since he gained some of his power by slaying a demon lord (Zanasu- a spider demon) he might be a good parallel example.

If this demigod has taken over a demonic realm, he might make a good patron for demonic clerics.

Good comments from all of you, thank you! This one is close to the mark. In our campaign world he certainly has contacted Kiaransalee (the GM and I haven't got writing that part yet) and Selvetarm isn't dead but contact hasn't been made since my demigod has contacted Lolth directly.

An idea has been growing that this demigod would defeat a minor demon lord in Pazunia (1st layer of the Abyss) and take over a territory. Problem is how to maintain the realm -- the demigod could not spend his all of his time there and with the current 4 divine ranks he cannot afford to have a proxy present at any given time to maintain control. That's why more divine ranks are needed. Also, his current escapades on the Prime will piss Corellon off something awful. However, in our campaign the chaotic elements are winning at the current time.

Demonic clerics sound like a workable idea. The fact that demons would use him as a conduit for power would not faze the demigod since it would be vice-versa. If he's a racial god for subterraneon elves what else would he need demons for except for fodder and source of power? Both sides would know this and benefit. A recently ascended divine being would have a helluva -- sorry, abyssal time to convince any fiend to worship him, given the inherent distrust of gods.

Why all these questions? A recently ascended god is impatient! :smallsmile: and not so knowledgeable about the cosmos/multiverse :smallredface:

Jorda75
2010-06-22, 03:03 PM
I don't believe that having outsiders worship a powerful outsider (like a deity or the like) grants them any divine power and here's where my thinking comes from:

Asmodeus is the most powerful devil in all the 9 hells and though certainly not all the devils worship him as a god a great many do. Even if a small portion of the cursed souls and devils that walk the 9 hells worshiped him so his followers would number in the hundreds of thousands, if not more. And yet he is not of divine rank, because while he holds an iron grip on hell, on the material plane his cult is still relatively small on most worlds.

Mortal followers seem to be the only source of gaining more divine power through worship. Demons, angels and devils are most often either created directly by the gods to serve them or are a byproduct of the nature of their native domain (such that "hell" spawns demons by it's own will, for example).

Clovis
2010-06-22, 03:25 PM
Talking about Asmodeus: the Dicefreaks bestow him with enough cosmic ranks to place him among the greater deities (or cosmic beings) who do not need or care about followers, mortal or otherwise. Personally I find this to be more plausible. He's too powerful to care about the Prime, since he's one of the Three (original ones).

ps. No troll or flaming intended!

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 03:32 PM
There's a lot of versions of Asmodeus's story.

I think one had him and Jazirian (a serpent deity) be twins, fight, and him cast down by Jazirian.

Interestingly, Jazirian is not an old deity in Serpent Kingdoms- he was created when Amphisbaena the World Serpent split into many lesser deities under the questioning of the nagas.

Since amphisbaenas in D&D are serpents with a head at either end- maybe Asmodeus was one head, Jazirian the other, and the many other reptilian deities spawned from the place where the body split?

Fiendish Codex 2 has him as a servant of the gods of law. So, not a primordial entity like the obyriths.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-22, 03:52 PM
Do demons worship? What a silly question to ask of course they worship, demons worship power plain and simple. Power, evil and destruction.
They are what a demon is, loves, desires so it is what it worships.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 04:00 PM
Which is not quite the same thing as worshipping a deity with the Evil and Destruction domains.

If you go by FC1, demons usually hate divine entities.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-22, 04:01 PM
Which is not quite the same thing as worshipping a deity with the Evil and Destruction domains.

If you go by FC1, demons usually hate divine entities.
Did I say deity? I don't think I did

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 04:04 PM
The original question concerned a demigod- can he get demons to worship him?

The fact that demons might worship abstract forces rather than deities- "Evil" "Destruction" "The Abyss" and so on, doesn't have much bearing on the question of "can a demigod persuade demons to worship him"

Optimystik
2010-06-22, 04:07 PM
What about Orcus? He was trying to be divine - was he expecting for all his worshipers to be from the Prime? Was he slated to be the demonic equivalent of Germans Love David Hasselhoff (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GermansLoveDavidHasselhoff)?

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 04:19 PM
He probably falls into the "demonic- so easy for demons to worship" category.

A demon who is a god (like Ghostwalk Orcus, or Lolth in the fluff) is probably easier for demons to worship, than a plain deity with no tie to demons.

That said, if (as people have speculated) outsider worshippers can't actually elevate you, than it would explain Orcus investing heavily in worship by mortals.

Jorda75
2010-06-22, 04:22 PM
Another example of a god in an evil realm who does not gain power from their followers is Lolth. She resides in the Demon Web Pits and it would seem her power is based solely on her number of Prime worshipers, mainly Drow of course, and not the demons that reside in her realm with her.

Orcus is another example, he almost became a god but it was only when his death cults grew to sufficient size that this happened, not his base of demon followers.

The "soul" is the key issue for me, as that's where I feel divine worship lies. Demons and their ilk are not mortals, like elementals they're spawned from primal sources and while they can think and act as they please their "souls" are not really theirs to give, unlike a mortal worshiper with a finite life span and a soul to give as they please.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 04:26 PM
Demonomicon of Iggwilv (Dragon) and FC2 both suggest that some demons are mortal souls in a new demonic form.

When the Abyss "spawns tanar'ri" it has to have something to spawn them from- and that something is generally a mortal soul, and if that mortal soul is associated with a particular sin, the appropriate demon will form.

Succubi from lust, glabrezu from envy, akilith from sloth, and so on.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-22, 04:27 PM
It the demi-god possesses those qualities and has the ability to bestow them upon a demon then yes he can get worship from demon.

A demon prince in theory is worshiped not only for the power it possesses but because they hold the power to demote other demons, their control over demon hierarchy is not as extensive as say with devils but its still there.

For a demon to worship a deity that deity needs to be able to offer power in return. It is probably that a powerful deity residing on the abyss could promote or demote a demon to some degree.

hamishspence
2010-06-22, 04:30 PM
Seems plausible.

I agree that the demigod would probably have to dwell in the Abyss to earn demonic respect though.

Jorda75
2010-06-22, 04:34 PM
That makes some sense, but it still seems off to me for some reason :P I think for me it boils down to numbers and motivation again. The only devils and demon lords who actively seek divine accession seem to do so through mortal followers, not by gathering demons to their cause. Why would Orcus go out of his way to build up any cults at all on the Prime if he could just recruit demons from the endless hordes all around him? It's just not logical that so many demons, devils and outsiders could provide so little divine power.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-22, 04:36 PM
That makes some sense, but it still seems off to me for some reason :P I think for me it boils down to numbers and motivation again. The only devils and demon lords who actively seek divine accession seem to do so through mortal followers, not by gathering demons to their cause. Why would Orcus go out of his way to build up any cults at all on the Prime if he could just recruit demons from the endless hordes all around him? It's just not logical that so many demons, devils and outsiders could provide so little divine power.

Who said they'd provide divine power? an army of demoms who worship you is an army of demons you can use to crush your enemies.

Jorda75
2010-06-22, 04:39 PM
Who said they'd provide divine power? an army of demoms who worship you is an army of demons you can use to crush your enemies.

I think that the original question was not "can demons worship a god", of course they can.


I am writing a CE demigod of a mortal origin: a shadowelf bestowed with divinity by Ao for services rendered. I was wondering if he could gain more devoters -- and therefore more power as measured by divine ranks -- by gaining followers among demons. BoVD and Fiendish Codex are a bit unclear on this issue.

The question is whether said worship grants divine power, which I don't believe it does.

Zen Master
2010-06-22, 06:07 PM
To my thinking, demons - and all outsiders without exception - do not worship anything. They have no immortal soul to save, they have no afterlife, and they have absolutely no cause for 'faith' - god could be their next door neighbor.

No - outsiders have the equivalent of employers. They work for god. Or ... nearest equivalent, like a demon prince or whatever.

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 02:45 AM
Most descriptions do suggest they have souls- its just that the soul dissipates rapidly into the home plane, making it harder to resurrect.

Complete Divine has this as the explanation for why it needs Wish, True Ressurrection, (or the later Revive Outsider) to bring back a dead Outsider.

They have souls- but their souls are more strongly tied to their bodies than mortals, to the extent that it's sometimes stated "soul and body is one unit"

Clovis
2010-06-23, 03:43 AM
Thank you all for your valuable input. As far as I see from all of the above, demons [outsiders] would not give divine power. Oh well, they can be used to crush one's enemies, as someone said. Good enough -- since demons, they be plentiful.

It is time, then, to follow Lolth's example and visit other worlds to get more followers. Easier said than done :smallsmile:

Zen Master
2010-06-23, 04:43 AM
Most descriptions do suggest they have souls- its just that the soul dissipates rapidly into the home plane, making it harder to resurrect.

Complete Divine has this as the explanation for why it needs Wish, True Ressurrection, (or the later Revive Outsider) to bring back a dead Outsider.

They have souls- but their souls are more strongly tied to their bodies than mortals, to the extent that it's sometimes stated "soul and body is one unit"

Meh - sorry, but I disagree. Basically, the fluff I invent is usually far better than the crap WoTC insults the world by charging money for. But whats more, the concepts of 'soul' and 'demon' are mutually exclusive - the guys who invented the concepts specifically said so, and a roleplaying book isn't changing that.

Again, this holds true as long as I'm the GM. Others will portray things differently - as they should, if it works better for them, naturally.

Cicciograna
2010-06-23, 08:33 AM
If demonic ranks worshiping a demonic God could grant him divine power there's no reason on why this couldn't be used in an infinite loop:

1) Demonic God gets power from demonic worshipers;
2) with his enhanced power, the God spawns/creates/makes/buds/gives birth to other demons;
3) spawned demons begin worshiping Demonic God, thus increasing his power.

Lather, rinse and repeat for unlimited divine might.

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 08:37 AM
Meh - sorry, but I disagree. Basically, the fluff I invent is usually far better than the crap WoTC insults the world by charging money for.

It isn't just WoTC- D&D authors have been doing "outsiders can be the souls of mortals" for a while.

In Elaine Cunningham's Windwalker, the drow priestess meets a yochlol (a demon servant of Lolth) who was a drow high priestess in life.


But whats more, the concepts of 'soul' and 'demon' are mutually exclusive - the guys who invented the concepts specifically said so, and a roleplaying book isn't changing that.

In the context of D&D- Gygax and Arneson? Where did they say that "soul" and "demon" are mutually exclusive?

In the context of mythology- souls and demons aren't always mutually exclusive- frequently, demons are described as being "the souls of evil mortals"

Wikipedia example- from the Demon section:


Augustine of Hippo's reading of Plotinus, in City of God (ch.11) is ambiguous as to whether daemons had become 'demonized' by the early 5th century:

"He [Plotinus] also states that the blessed are called in Greek eudaimones, because they are good souls, that is to say, good demons, confirming his opinion that the souls of men are demons.

Sydonai
2010-06-23, 12:14 PM
He probably falls into the "demonic- so easy for demons to worship" category.

A demon who is a god (like Ghostwalk Orcus, or Lolth in the fluff) is probably easier for demons to worship, than a plain deity with no tie to demons.

That said, if (as people have speculated) outsider worshippers can't actually elevate you, than it would explain Orcus investing heavily in worship by mortals.

Lolth isn't just a Demon Lord anymore, she became an actual deity at the end of The War of The Spider Queen series.

hamishspence
2010-06-23, 12:22 PM
She was turned into a Demon Lord when she was banished from the pantheon- she regaind divine power fairly quickly though. By the time the drow are banished underground, she is already a deity.

The War of the Spider Queen ends with her ascension to greater deity.

The standard Lolth, pre-War of the Spider Queen, is effectively both a deity and a demon lord simultaneously.

Jallorn
2010-06-23, 12:45 PM
I am writing a CE demigod of a mortal origin: a shadowelf bestowed with divinity by Ao for services rendered. I was wondering if he could gain more devoters -- and therefore more power as measured by divine ranks -- by gaining followers among demons. BoVD and Fiendish Codex are a bit unclear on this issue.

Ask your DM how it works in his world. And if you are the DM, why not?