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MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 09:17 PM
Ever had this happen to you as GM? Its the beginning of the story and...

"You wake up in the morning in the inn. What do you do?"

Their reaction: Silence. All players look at me for suggestions.

They're in a bustling city for crying out loud!

I don't know about you, but I don't like it when players seem to depend on a GM for ideas on what to do. It makes me feel like I'm holding their hand, taking all the fun away from them, not to mention setting me up for taking the blame for a boring adventure later on.

Obviously this is not the first time this has ever happened to a GM. Any advice? Should I just send them down a cave of doom? :smallbiggrin:

PersonMan
2010-06-22, 09:19 PM
Well, the problem is that if you're put in a situation with absolutely no hints/clues/ideas as what to do, and with a large number of options, it can be difficult to decide what to do. If I were in that situation, I would be trying to figure out what the DM would want me to do, and search for plot hooks/adventure hooks or whatever there.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-22, 09:22 PM
Well, i'd go to the nearest artisan i could find to get new clothes.

OracleofWuffing
2010-06-22, 09:26 PM
"You wake up in the morning in the inn. What do you do?"

I start whittling some twenty sided dice. Elf, start scribing character sheets. Orc, we'll use your coin collection for tokens. Bard, you're the DM.

...

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction. :smalltongue:

Try to avoid those situations. Some people just don't like the role-played socializing aspect of the game, some people just like charging straight into the door that has Admiral Ackbar's picture on it. Let everyone assume all the characters know each other, and if nobody likes it, eliminate the 10-day wagon ride to the Tomb of Battle. Don't force character depth if the players don't want to do it.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 09:26 PM
Well, the problem is that if you're put in a situation with absolutely no hints/clues/ideas as what to do, and with a large number of options, it can be difficult to decide what to do. If I were in that situation, I would be trying to figure out what the DM would want me to do, and search for plot hooks/adventure hooks or whatever there.

I totally understand where you're coming from. But from my experience it gets a little old when I the GM give them hints as to what they could be doing at any given moment. I do make adventure hooks yes, but players shouldn't act like robots in my opinion.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 09:28 PM
Try to avoid those situations. Some people just don't like the role-played socializing aspect of the game, some people just like charging straight into the door that has Admiral Ackbar's picture on it. Let everyone assume all the characters know each other, and if nobody likes it, eliminate the 10-day wagon ride to the Tomb of Battle. Don't force character depth if the players don't want to do it.

I guess you're right. If they expect me to guide them this way, then so be it. But I loathe it when they inevitably complain about the lack of choices. (sigh)

The-Mage-King
2010-06-22, 09:29 PM
Take the adventure to them- have something going on outside after they prep, and leave a... subtle clue to what they should do next with it.

PersonMan
2010-06-22, 09:30 PM
I totally understand where you're coming from. But from my experience it gets a little old when I the GM give them hints as to what they could be doing at any given moment. I do make adventure hooks yes, but players shouldn't act like robots in my opinion.

Unless your group is really bad about it, some direction would be fine. Something like

"You've traveled to this city for whatever reasons, and are staying at the X Inn. During your stay here, you heard rumors about [PLOT HOOK], [ADVENTURE HOOK], [PLOT-RELEVANT TIDBIT FOR LATER], and [FLUFF STUFF]. There's also a/an [EVENT] going on, with [EVENT REPERCUSSIONS]. What to you do?"

See, now the players have several options, but not too many. They can look around for stuff they find interesting and feel like they have options, but not be overwhelmed by the >9000 possible actions they can take.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 09:34 PM
Take the adventure to them- have something going on outside after they prep, and leave a... subtle clue to what they should do next with it.

Funny thing is, they are extremely cautious especially for evil characters. They're lvl 5, and they have never robbed, hurt, stolen goods from, or defrauded any innocent parties whatsoever. And they consistently avoid trouble if they smell it. They only go for easy kills+cheap reward type quests so far. Understandably they want to survive, but boy do they act neutral for evil characters.

I'm leaning towards throwing them somehow into a survival quest if that's the way they're going to act. They'll be at my mercy (with good rewards for success of course; I'm not cruel) and then they'll have to think for themselves. Should be fun.

In fact, now that I think about it the only times when they do seem to come up with their own ideas as characters is when faced with the possibility of death. Hmm.

Steward
2010-06-22, 09:36 PM
The players might be nervous that they could pick the "wrong" option and the DM will either throw a hissy-fit or railroad them (not saying that they're right, only that it's something that someone could be legitimately concerned about).

Try to throw in some hints or highlight certain likely opportunities. I mean, unless you want them to wander aimlessly throughout the city, there has to be something that you too would also like to see them do. If you want it to be free form, still toss in a few things that they might stand out. If it's just a list of things it might be too hard to decide.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 09:41 PM
The players might be nervous that they could pick the "wrong" option and the DM will either throw a hissy-fit or railroad them (not saying that they're right, only that it's something that someone could be legitimately concerned about).

Try to throw in some hints or highlight certain likely opportunities. I mean, unless you want them to wander aimlessly throughout the city, there has to be something that you too would also like to see them do. If you want it to be free form, still toss in a few things that they might stand out. If it's just a list of things it might be too hard to decide.

Let me reiterate my previous points. I do give adventure hooks, i.e. "hints" about what they could do. There's obviously no lack of opportunities. But as players they don't do much roleplaying in terms of coming up with their own plans. They supposedly want to pursue a dark path to power/wealth, yet seem to depend on me for suggestions on how to go about it. I mean, is it too hard for them (for example) to scheme a way to robbing the local bank they just returned from?

I don't expect them to be evil, mind you. I just expect them to think.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-22, 09:42 PM
It's not railroading if they don't notice it.

DM planned for you to meet the next plot hook in a crime scene? Just move the streets.
He wanted the cryptic old man to meet you guys in the One-Eyed Monkey Inn but you went to a bakery? No problem! Just make the old man rant a lot about the wrong crisp of the bread and how he'd just use that treasure to buy the place and reform it...

Grommen
2010-06-22, 09:46 PM
It's not a lack of imagination, it's a lack of leadership you are having I think.

When I start out an adventure or a new campaign, I begin by knowing the characters. That way when I get the big blank stare, all I have to do is give a nudge. Once they take it were off and running. Then it's just back and forth.

If they are contently staring at you, looking for direction. The problem might be you don't have a leader in the group. This can be hard for you. You have to get someone motivated to be the leader of the group, or they will just stare at you all the live long day and you will end up spooning the hole adventure to them. This really sucks.

I'm blessed and cursed most of the time. I have several leaders and no followers. All we end up doing is bickering and digressing and never get anywhere. When I'm not the DM I usually end up the party leader, and get the ball rolling.

Thajocoth
2010-06-22, 09:46 PM
As a player, I would say something like "I check to see if the inn has some sort of bulletin board of dangerous job postings or something like that. Or if not, if the innkeeper knows of any such jobs."

As a DM, I would add "There is a bulletin board with a few job postings." Have a few that are little tedious skill checks for a pittance if they accept them, and one that leads them to a questgiver and eventually to a dungeon.

Once you've given them a bulletin board once, they'll think of it, and ask you if there's one and what's on it at future inns. Replace bulletin board with any other feature of the world. The PCs know they're in an inn in a vague city. They don't know the details of the inn or the city. They don't know their options.

Eloi
2010-06-22, 09:49 PM
Ha, one of my friends who sometimes DMs laid out that situation once to our evil party, and I was playing as a 'mysterious' Chaotic Evil Blackguard, and I got my character drunk and started threating NPCs with broken bottles, and then taking vigilante justice against this one thief, whom of which I killed. The rest of the party seemed to not want to do anything, so I was kind of anxious to do something. Our party ransacked the inn and then burnt it down after I killed the guy. I think it only takes one person to get the others moving, really.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 09:50 PM
If they are contently staring at you, looking for direction. The problem might be you don't have a leader in the group. This can be hard for you. You have to get someone motivated to be the leader of the group, or they will just stare at you all the live long day and you will end up spooning the hole adventure to them. This really sucks.

Actually I think you may have a point here. There's only two players in my game so far, and yes there are no "leaders". I really do have to spoonfeed adventures to them.

The good news is that I'm in the process of creating a lot of detail in my world, complete with a map, etc. That way they at least have some content to work with should they feel truly adventurous.

valadil
2010-06-22, 09:51 PM
Their reaction: Silence. All players look at me for suggestions.

I don't know about you, but I don't like it when players seem to depend on a GM for ideas on what to do. It makes me feel like I'm holding their hand, taking all the fun away from them, not to mention setting me up for taking the blame for a boring adventure later on.


If this happens it's because you haven't prepared them enough. I require backstories from my PCs. Before the game even starts they should know what their character would do given free time. If you can't garner that from the story they've given you, request more story.

Beyond that, the problem isn't that the players have little imagination. It's that they don't realize they can use their imagination. They've been conditioned to expect multiple choice options. Until you give them 3 plot hooks and let them pick which one to investigate, they're out of their element.

Encourage their imagination. Let stuff just work when they're being creative. I like to encourage this sort of thing with open ended puzzles. Gamers are used to puzzles, so this shouldn't surprise them too much. Give them puzzles that don't have fixed answers. In my next session a dude is gonna float over the PCs on an earthmote 100 feet in the air, calling for help. I don't know how they'll get him down. If they think of something it'll work. If they don't, they'll always wonder about that plot they missed (which somehow actually ties into the main overarching plot...). Maybe they'll ask me how they were supposed to get him down and I'll just shrug. Once the players realize that they have to supply the answers to problems like these, they'll be a lot more likely to apply their imagination on other problems too.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 09:53 PM
Ha, one of my friends who sometimes DMs laid out that situation once to our evil party, and I was playing as a 'mysterious' Chaotic Evil Blackguard, and I got my character drunk and started threating NPCs with broken bottles, and then taking vigilante justice against this one thief, whom of which I killed. The rest of the party seemed to not want to do anything, so I was kind of anxious to do something. Our party ransacked the inn and then burnt it down after I killed the guy. I think it only takes one person to get the others moving, really.

LOL! Perhaps we ought to recruit a player like yourself.

Steward
2010-06-22, 09:54 PM
I mean, is it too hard for them (for example) to scheme a way to robbing the local bank they just returned from?

Oh, I didn't know all that when I first started replying (I opened this window and left it open)!

In that case, yeah, I can see your point. If all you had said is, "You're in a bustling city. What do you want to do?" I can see how they would be confused. In a fantasy world, the possibilities in a "bustling city" are functionally limitless; the whole thing could turn out to be a Potemkin Village run by Zombie Warlock Stalin and his ally Cthulhu.

But if they actually have a goal already and you've given them a tour to all the usual places (a bank for bank robbers) then it's kind of weird that they would even need a lot of imagination to figure out what to do. I mean, if I was roleplaying a bank robber and the DM took the time to take me to visit a bank I would probably figure out that there was some kind of plot hook there.


I'm blessed and cursed most of the time. I have several leaders and no followers. All we end up doing is bickering and digressing and never get anywhere. When I'm not the DM I usually end up the party leader, and get the ball rolling.

I guess that's the old riddle. What is better? No movement because no one can agree or no movement because no one has any ideas at all?

ApatheticDespot
2010-06-22, 09:57 PM
This is a mistake I made when I first started DMing. Players do indeed want choice, but the DM needs to provide meaningful choices for them to make. In your scenario of the PCs simply waking up in a bustling city you're giving the players a vast array of possible actions but giving them nothing to decide their actions based on. There are no pros and cons to judge, no priorities to evaluate, you haven't really given them a choice at all. The problem isn't that the players lack imagination, but that they haven't been given anything to use their imagination for. One of the players in the first game I ran put it best, "We need lines so that we can colour over them".

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 09:58 PM
If this happens it's because you haven't prepared them enough. I require backstories from my PCs. Before the game even starts they should know what their character would do given free time. If you can't garner that from the story they've given you, request more story.

Beyond that, the problem isn't that the players have little imagination. It's that they don't realize they can use their imagination. They've been conditioned to expect multiple choice options. Until you give them 3 plot hooks and let them pick which one to investigate, they're out of their element.

Encourage their imagination. Let stuff just work when they're being creative. I like to encourage this sort of thing with open ended puzzles. Gamers are used to puzzles, so this shouldn't surprise them too much. Give them puzzles that don't have fixed answers. In my next session a dude is gonna float over the PCs on an earthmote 100 feet in the air, calling for help. I don't know how they'll get him down. If they think of something it'll work. If they don't, they'll always wonder about that plot they missed (which somehow actually ties into the main overarching plot...). Maybe they'll ask me how they were supposed to get him down and I'll just shrug. Once the players realize that they have to supply the answers to problems like these, they'll be a lot more likely to apply their imagination on other problems too.

I really like what I've read here. These players could use an open-ended puzzle quest. I don't think they'll enjoy it at first, but it should help them enjoy the game more in the long term. Good advice!

DragoonWraith
2010-06-22, 10:03 PM
Yeah, I was in a game where the DM had us in a twisty labyrinthine cave, with a massive number of forks, and absolutely nothing descript about the place. We didn't even know where we were.

And he'd keep posting things like "OK, so there are three forks, left, center, and right. Which do you choose?"

"Is there anything that sets any apart from the others? We don't even know where we're trying to go."

"No, just pick one."

"Uh, OK. Right, I guess."

Note that this process just took like two or three days, because everybody's posting ~1/day. A day later? "OK, now there's four forks..."

Eventually we just kind of stopped posting, because we never really seemed to get anywhere. I mean, I'm quite certain the DM had a distinct plan for the campaign, since he'd shared some of it with me, and there were a few fluff-related things, but ultimately the campaign stagnated because we were given a series of meaningless options.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 10:04 PM
But if they actually have a goal already and you've given them a tour to all the usual places (a bank for bank robbers) then it's kind of weird that they would even need a lot of imagination to figure out what to do. I mean, if I was roleplaying a bank robber and the DM took the time to take me to visit a bank I would probably figure out that there was some kind of plot hook there.

(nods) Hence my previous idea for a survival quest. Maybe even a combo of open-ended-puzzle+survival to get the ol ticker and noodle going. :smallwink:

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 10:06 PM
Yeah, I was in a game where the DM had us in a twisty labyrinthine cave, with a massive number of forks, and absolutely nothing descript about the place. We didn't even know where we were.

Oh God no. I make it a point to avoid maze-like quests whether they're already mapped on paper or not at all. Too confusing for the players and myself.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-22, 10:10 PM
Ah, as mentioned here... characters usually are driven. If no one in the group has that...things won't really happen. It could be something as simple as wanting to take good care of your pet Einsten-Rosen bridge with the personality of a hyperstimulated toddler.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 10:16 PM
Ah, as mentioned here... characters usually are driven. If no one in the group has that...things won't really happen. It could be something as simple as wanting to take good care of your pet Einsten-Rosen bridge with the personality of a hyperstimulated toddler.

I don't know if we're on the same page here. Having the characters take my adventure hooks is easy. Encouraging the players to think for themselves is another matter. As a GM, I expect to be surprised by their actions more often than not. Its not enjoyable when when I spoonfeed the story to them, for me or for them.

There's only one instance of them ever going off the beaten path I had prepared them for, and that consisted of dishonorably killing some goblins who were negotiating with them. Those are the games that I tend to remember the most.

Xefas
2010-06-22, 10:35 PM
I think part of this problem stems from D&D itself. For a supposed 'role-playing game', it has no 'role-playing' elements. Sure, you can write up a backstory, choose a vague, arbitrary alignment, and talk in a funny accent, but you could do that for any game.

For instance "Hey, guys, we're gonna be playing Monopoly. Everyone choose a piece and write up a backstory. Where did your Battleship come from? What our his hobbies? Etc. Then pick an alignment. Good means you'll talk really nice while you suck the money out of everyone's pockets, and Evil means you'll cackle while doing so. And now...talk in funny accents!"

In games even as simple as Risus, there are at least role-playing mechanics. In that particular game, your stats are entirely defined by what you *are*. You can have "Surly Noir Detective [6]" as a stat, and that means you're good at and should have the interests of a Surly Noir Detective.

Further example: Exalted. You have Virtues, Intimacies, and a Motivation to guide what you do. Downtime? Well, my Motivation is to Become The Greatest Warlord In The History of Creation, perhaps I'll go raise an army. Temperance 1? Maybe I'll go boozing and hit up a brothel. Intimacy for My Family? I suppose I could drop in and see how the kids are doing.

Burning Wheel has Beliefs and Instincts. Beliefs are a combination of something your character believes strongly in and a goal extrapolated from that belief (i.e. "I am the smartest and best person at everything always. Therefore, I deserve the family inheritance instead of my older brother and should remove him from the picture somehow."). Instincts are something intrinsic to your character and are a constant assumption the plot takes about them. For instance "I always check my room for traps and make sure its secure before going to bed." The GM can then never say "Hey, ninjas hiding under your bed, they stab you in your sleep." because, hey, its right on your sheet that you *always* check.

I used to have players just like that. They were blank and unimaginative and never took initiative. And then we started actually playing other games and it completely turned around. We've never had that problem again, just because we don't play D&D anymore.

Shpadoinkle
2010-06-22, 10:39 PM
They didn't do anything because you gave them practically nothing to work with. It's like if I gave you a sheet of posterboard and said "Here, make a sign." What kind of sign? Why? Who am I making it for? Don't I get any paints or anything?

That's the situation you threw your players into. You have to give most people a little more than the absolute bare essentials if you want anything creative. Hell, most ideas don't come out of limbo, almost all of them are triggered by being inspired by something else.

jseah
2010-06-22, 10:42 PM
I love it when the GM says that. It means, no immediate timetable, no constraints, no obligations.

I think the easiest way to break the ice is to describe the city. If I was simply asked that at the start of a campaign, with no given info, I'd start by asking a giant list of questions about the city. (and going out to answer it if our characters don't know the answers)
All on the way to the industrial revolution...

Safety Sword
2010-06-22, 10:55 PM
Blank looks and no ideas lead to explosions in my campaigns.

Nothing shakes up PC to action more than when the roof starts collapsing and the walls are coming down.

If I get blank looks after the explosion... I pack up and go home.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-22, 11:53 PM
They didn't do anything because you gave them practically nothing to work with. It's like if I gave you a sheet of posterboard and said "Here, make a sign." What kind of sign? Why? Who am I making it for? Don't I get any paints or anything?

That's the situation you threw your players into. You have to give most people a little more than the absolute bare essentials if you want anything creative. Hell, most ideas don't come out of limbo, almost all of them are triggered by being inspired by something else.

Nothing but false assumptions in this post. Please read the thread before commenting first.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-23, 12:04 AM
I think part of this problem stems from D&D itself. For a supposed 'role-playing game', it has no 'role-playing' elements. Sure, you can write up a backstory, choose a vague, arbitrary alignment, and talk in a funny accent, but you could do that for any game.

For instance "Hey, guys, we're gonna be playing Monopoly. Everyone choose a piece and write up a backstory. Where did your Battleship come from? What our his hobbies? Etc. Then pick an alignment. Good means you'll talk really nice while you suck the money out of everyone's pockets, and Evil means you'll cackle while doing so. And now...talk in funny accents!"

I don't know if its a problem with D&D per se or just a problem with the way players+DMs handle the role-playing styles. But your Monopoly example of alignment hits true to its mark in my current game...except in an inverse way. My evil players are not acting evil. Far from it. They've even saved a baby from certain death! Sure they did it for the possible reward money (reward money for a stranger's baby swaddled in dirty clothes with nothing but a small magical amulate around its neck) but that's about it. If that's Evil, Good has nothing to worry about.

But that's a subject for a different thread. I'm just a little tired of the players not thinking for themselves outside of either the battles or the marketplace.


I used to have players just like that. They were blank and unimaginative and never took initiative. And then we started actually playing other games and it completely turned around. We've never had that problem again, just because we don't play D&D anymore.

I've been exploring FUDGE lately. The other games you mentioned seem very similar. We could probably use a nice reprieve from D&D for a while. Thanks.

Enix18
2010-06-23, 12:29 AM
Ever had this happen to you as GM? Its the beginning of the story and...

"You wake up in the morning in the inn. What do you do?"

Their reaction: Silence. All players look at me for suggestions.

From just what you've written here, the problem seems to be entirely yours, not the players'.

As others have already said, you've given them absolutely nothing to work with. There's nothing interesting going on and nothing meaningful for them to do. You don't have to force-fead them adventure, but you have to give them something.

Why are they in this city? In this particular inn?
How do they know each other? Why are they together?
What interesting things are going on right now? What rumors have they heard?

Answering at least one of these questions from the outset it what a good DM would do. Once the players have some idea what's going on, they're more likely to take action. It doesn't even matter if the interesting things going on in the city are related to the main quest at all; as long as it's something that the players have a reason to be interested in, it's likely to help spur them on.

You don't have to spoon adventure too them, but you at least need to put something on their plate.

Xefas
2010-06-23, 12:49 AM
I've been exploring FUDGE lately. The other games you mentioned seem very similar. We could probably use a nice reprieve from D&D for a while. Thanks.

I'm not very familiar with FUDGE, but I hope everything works out for you and your group.



As others have already said, you've given them absolutely nothing to work with. There's nothing interesting going on and nothing meaningful for them to do. You don't have to force-fead them adventure, but you have to give them something.

Why are they in this city? In this particular inn?
How do they know each other? Why are they together?
What interesting things are going on right now? What rumors have they heard?

You don't have to spoon adventure too them, but you at least need to put something on their plate.

I have to disagree very strongly.

In your life, do you have a Game Master giving you plot hooks? I would hope not. You go about your life doing things because that's what you want/need/have to do. You have wants, needs, and imperatives that drive you.

A good character should have the same things. Every morning your character wakes up, he should have an idea of what he'll be doing that day and why. Every scene, you should ask yourself "What does my character want out of this?" If your character wants nothing out of this, then he should leave because it doesn't involve him.

I would say next time this happens, ask your players some questions about their characters.

Are you hungry?. Yes, well, do you have money? No, I see. So, why not go get a nice, safe, steady job as a barkeep, or a glassblower, or a dog trainer, or a dairy farmer? You don't want a nice, safe, steady job like every other human being on Earth? Why?

And that's where most D&D parties implode their verisimilitude. If your player can answer that question satisfactorily, then you have a plot that can span indefinitely. If your player doesn't want to answer that question, then there's a major problem. Either he wants to hack n' slash, in which case he doesn't want to be playing a role-playing game (which I guess means D&D is right up his alley), or he's not playing the right game for him.

Zeful
2010-06-23, 12:52 AM
Ever had this happen to you as GM? Its the beginning of the story and...

"You wake up in the morning in the inn. What do you do?"

Their reaction: Silence. All players look at me for suggestions.

Yes I have. There are two ways to deal with this. The first: sit down and brainstorm the character's personalities so they have a good idea of who the characters are then ask, as if it were part of the brainstorming session. Go on from there.

The Second: Put them in a situation In Media Res and detail everything the PCs know about the situation, then ask "What do you do?"

Icewraith
2010-06-23, 12:57 AM
The problem with expecting people to know what to do after "it's the morning, you wake up in the inn et. al" is that people only have experience being themselves, they're not playing D&D to wake up, get dressed, go to work, slave for 8-9 hours, come home, have a beer, hang out or do chores depending on day, go to sleep, repeat. If they have backstories then hopefully they'll do something related to those, but if they're in generic inn #314 and nothing immediately interesting is going on...?

Anyway, the response sounds like people who don't RP a whole lot. People who have RPed a lot are generally a little more active even with such little information. If you give someone who has RPed a lot that sort of info, expect a question/statement that immediately leads to 1: them getting more info and 2: causing trouble for you. e.g.

"How many barmaids are there and how cute are they?"
"What's the closest flammable object?"
"Pazuzu, Paz..."
"I cast detect magic" (worse) "I cast Color Spray" (even worse) "I cast Mount"
"How many people in the immediate area are wearing adventurer's kits or better?"
"I run to the nearest forest and begin felling trees in preparation for the construction of a ballista"

Xefas
2010-06-23, 01:09 AM
The problem with expecting people to know what to do after "it's the morning, you wake up in the inn et. al" is that people only have experience being themselves, they're not playing D&D to wake up, get dressed, go to work, slave for 8-9 hours, come home, have a beer, hang out or do chores depending on day, go to sleep, repeat. If they have backstories then hopefully they'll do something related to those, but if they're in generic inn #314 and nothing immediately interesting is going on...?

Well, my point is that your character needs a reason to not want to just go to work in the morning, slave for hours, come home and repeat the next day. If there's no reason for them not to have a normal life, then they'd have a normal life.

For instance, say I'm playing Exalted. The DM wakes me up in generic inn #314 and nothing interesting is happening. I look on my character sheet. I'm a Solar Exalted. That means one day I changed from being completely mortal to having the kind of power that lets me flip Old Testament God the bird and he's too scared to do anything about it. That's my reason for not having a normal life. I can't have a normal life because I can make greater deities piss themselves and run away.

I look once more at my character sheet. My motivation says "Become the greatest warlord in the history of creation." Well, I get up, I go outside, and I use Memory Reweaving Discipline to make the entire town believe that they have always been my fanatical servants since birth. I then tell the Dawn Caste in the party to start training them up, and the Twilight Caste to start making Celestial Battle Armor, because we're about to go conquerin' the world.

In D&D, I may not have the luxury of actual roleplaying mechanics in the system, but I can still make do. I wake up. Generic inn. Nothing interesting happening. Well, why am I an adventurer? Well, maybe I'm a sorcerer and I woke up one morning and shot fire out of my face and now I'm afraid if I hang around people, I'm going to hurt them. Or maybe I'm a barbarian whose tribe was forced off their homeland by the expanding elven empire. Now I have no practical life skills other than huntin' and killin'. Well, maybe I should go find someone that wants something hunted or killed. No one? Well, I'm mighty pissed at those guys that forced my tribe off their land. Perhaps some revenge would make things right.

Knaight
2010-06-23, 01:16 AM
I've been exploring FUDGE lately. The other games you mentioned seem very similar. We could probably use a nice reprieve from D&D for a while. Thanks.

Sounds more like a group problem than a system problem. Still, I encourage this, I'm playing a game with an ex D&D GM in Fudge right now, and he made the transition easily enough. Its not like there aren't resources and/or online fudge groups.

That said, some basic advice. Start things in motion* and keep them there until some goals get properly established and the players get their characters grounded in the setting. Then let things unfurl as they will.

*Violence works well for this.

Volthawk
2010-06-23, 01:30 AM
*Violence works well for this.

Violence always works well.

Knaight
2010-06-23, 01:33 AM
Violence always works well.

Isn't it wonderful?

Angelmaker
2010-06-23, 01:42 AM
Very good stuff mentioned in those posts.

I kind of had the same problems with my players. I am mostly the kind of player that Xefas mentions - I can make my own plans and schemes. May they be silly ( playing a bard can be tremendous fun ) or sinister or heroic. But I can also deal with the more "streamlined" adventure plots. When I DM I make the mistake of assuming my players feel the same way about playing, which obviously they donīt.

When I first presented my players a very open system which required THEM to take actions from which I could garner information about what their characters motives were ( I kinda didnīt want my players to write backstories, because I knew I wouldnīt get one ) it was a very frustrating sessions, even though they had chosen professions for their characters no one came up with even something remotely interesting. Best one was "I will be looking for a job". Another palyer did very interesting stuff, modifying his equipment, looked good. If he had more time, it would probably have led to something interesting.

The sessions more or less ended in with the players arguing about contraband wares which they found abandoned ( I threw them a bone after noone did something intereseting ) causing one player to actually leave the group because no one was clear about what his or her characters motive were.

Here are the details:
The choice was either to hand the contraband to the officials, sell the contraband themselfes, sell the contraband to the local crime lord oooorrrr whatever plan they DID themselves come up with.

I would even had be fine with the possibility of splitting it up, everyone doing their own stuff with it, so I could unify them later with a more interesting plotline, after I had a more clear idea about how to get to them.

So this player instead preferred to return to his local family, helping out on the farm, wanting nothing to have to do with it.

Fine, I thought to myself... I need to make clear, he needs the contraband for... *thinking hard* ... pay for some bill... yeah... and told the player his character would see his father coughing up blood, which his father would try to hide from him. It was an impromptous plan, but I still think itīs a very clever idea to motivate the character. I the players canīt come up with a reason to work together, then thatīs fine, I just have to nudge them. Thatīs my job as a DM anyway, riiiight?

So, instead of taking in character action, either asking his father whatīs wrong or to return to the party to ask to let them back in cause he needed the money ( I even had a plan for the small chance that heīd turn his former group in to the authorities, THAT good was my impromptuo plan. Yes, Iīm awesome :smallcool: ), what he actually did was this:

He accused me of metagaming, because I knew his character wouldnīt want to be part of the contraband plan.

I cannot tell you what I felt that moment. It was something like this: :smallsmile:( he must be kidding ) - :smallannoyed:( he IS kidding, right? ) - :smalleek: ( he really means it??? ) - :smallyuk: ( What are you? dumb!?!? ) - :smallfrown: ( moment of self-doubts: Am I a terrible GM? ) - :smallbiggrin: ( insane giggling ) - :smallsigh: ( oh, well, he means it. I guess that session is over now... )

I mean common... accusing the GM of metagaming is like... I donīt know. Order a cheeseburger without cheese? Driving a car to the gas station because itīs full of gas? Thereīs no amount of headbanging to the wall that can make this thing right.


I learned from that: I ordered a switch to D&D 4, threw them in a boat, gave them a mission and went from there on foreward. Itīs less roleplaying than actual dungeoncrawling, but at least it works!

Vizzerdrix
2010-06-23, 01:48 AM
Ever had this happen to you as GM? Its the beginning of the story and...

"You wake up in the morning in the inn. What do you do?"

Climb out of the wreckage, dust myself off and go get something to eat.

Or go about the business of running my inn.

Panic! I went to sleep in my tower!

Panic! I'm a huge sized critter that just woke up inside a gnome inn! I didn't even know I could bend like that!?

Finally! Some pathetic mortal used the remains of my temple. Now I can gather power in this dark wine cellar until I can take over the world Mwahahahahaaa!

But honestly, If those two sentences was all I got to go on at the start of the campaign, I'd just sit there too.


EDIT: Dragoonwraith-- The next time a DM ever tries to pull that crap on you, make a Know: Architecture/Engineering check, then tell him you put your hand on the wall to your right and walk, never taking it off the wall. You'll get out.

Angelmaker
2010-06-23, 01:57 AM
But honestly, If those two sentences was all I got to go on at the start of the campaign, I'd just sit there too.This wasnīt the first session. Read the OP comment about the bank from which his group just returned. In context of his group believing themselves to be evil, which SHOULD imply some scheme to accumulate wealth or power, this is just a very open minded GM style which I DESPERATELY would appreciate in at least one of my groups.

This is just a matter of getting your GM style in sync with the playstyle of your group.

Ozreth
2010-06-23, 02:17 AM
My first reaction when I read these two sentences together:

"My players have little imagination" and "You wake up in an inn, what do you do?"

was that maybe the pot is calling the kettle black? ha. Starting your players asleep in an inn is the least imaginative and intriguing thing you can do to your players, unless they have hardly ever played the game before, which in that case you need to let them get worn in a bit anyways.

Jallorn
2010-06-23, 02:29 AM
It's not railroading if they don't notice it.

DM planned for you to meet the next plot hook in a crime scene? Just move the streets.
He wanted the cryptic old man to meet you guys in the One-Eyed Monkey Inn but you went to a bakery? No problem! Just make the old man rant a lot about the wrong crisp of the bread and how he'd just use that treasure to buy the place and reform it...

This is why I can't DM, I can't do this. I know to, but it just doesn't feel right. Just because there is the illusion of choice doesn't mean there's actually choice. Of course most choice is really in the form of solutions to the problems your DM presents you with, but I still don't feel right doing it myself.

Knaight
2010-06-23, 02:33 AM
This is why I can't DM, I can't do this. I know to, but it just doesn't feel right. Just because there is the illusion of choice doesn't mean there's actually choice. Of course most choice is really in the form of solutions to the problems your DM presents you with, but I still don't feel right doing it myself.

I don't, and it works out just fine. Sure, in some cases the event still happens. If some guy is tracking you, odds are they will eventually catch up, but the choice of where is still there, not to mention any number of ways to change the situation. He can't catch you if you post a bounty on his head first*.

*Unless you are way cheap, or they are way good.

Math_Mage
2010-06-23, 03:51 AM
I feel like one problem with this scenario is that if your players give you something besides the blank stare, usually it's just another way of saying "I search for adventure hooks." For example, I'm playing 4 or 5 characters right now. If you set this scenario up with my characters...
-One would go trawl for crimes in progress or preparation, so she could show up The Man by beating him to the punch. In the meantime, she'd browse the shops for anything interesting.
-One would go meditate for a while, then trawl for rumors about dragons, then probably go to the library.
-One would wonder why she wasn't sleeping in a tree, then go for some archery practice, then trawl for rumors about elves, then pick a direction and start walking.
-One would go straight for a job postings board.

And so on. Maybe it's just that my backstories are insufficiently detailed, but the first impulse actions I would give to my characters are thinly veiled pleas for adventure hooks. It'd be less work for the DM to use one adventure hook to get things rolling, than to accommodate several different indirect methods of requesting hooks.

(Caveat: These are all 2nd-6th level characters. Your options obviously increase as you level.)

Of course, this isn't your main problem. Your main problem is that your players aren't in touch with their characters and your campaign setting. That means both of you are remiss to some extent, but it also means that you have options. You can do some character brainstorming with the players to get them personally interested in the roleplaying, or you can develop your campaign world and introduce your players to it, so that they want to explore some particular aspect of it when they have nothing else to do.

Or, you can blow something up and go from there. It's always an option.

(Caveat: I've never DM'd, so this may be a one-sided perspective.)

Sliver
2010-06-23, 04:10 AM
I don't railroad, I just lay rails where my players set foot. (I'm hardly planning ahead, just going with an idea and see how it develops with the player's actions. So far I'm only really DMing PbP and I think I'm not too horrible at what I'm trying to do. At least I don't think Dragoon was talking about the first game I DMed here :smallredface:)

I had the problem of a no-reaction player... As a DM and a player...

I mostly prefer to be a follower, but I like to think I know when and how to switch to being a leader... If I'm interested enough in a game but it slows down, I will try to get my character to motivate others. Sometimes it goes by "If you don't do something to move on with the plot, my character will eat the plot" while other times it goes with just taking the initiative...

But this one friend of mine IRL is just horrible... I was a player once IRL, well thrice to the same DM, but at the first game I played it was me, him and the DM and I had to force him to speak, and it was fairly short. It was a solo game with a friend watching and guiding an NPC in combat. I find a major part of my RPG enjoyment to come from PC interaction (came to life from a game with a horrible DM that I found fun only because the two other players. And then the DM forced my character away because I got dominated so I couldn't even play with them. But he didn't use dominate that I thought he did, but just some super charm person that he didn't want to tell me that I had options beside follow mindlessly. You want to know why I was dominated? Because the DM found my character to be boring!)

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 04:49 AM
This is why I can't DM, I can't do this. I know to, but it just doesn't feel right. Just because there is the illusion of choice doesn't mean there's actually choice. Of course most choice is really in the form of solutions to the problems your DM presents you with, but I still don't feel right doing it myself.
:p keep contingency plans around. Have 5, 6 hooks loose and if they can't bite a single one, jam the hook in their necks.

Demonic Spoon
2010-06-23, 05:06 AM
I think what the OP means is that he's attempting to run a sandbox campaign. From what I gather he wants to create a world for the characters and give said characters the total choice on what to do. A DM doesn't need to have anything pre-made as long as there's an interesting world for this to happen in.

In which case simply inform your players that it's that type of campaign. If they still have no idea, provide more details and perhaps some subtle ideas on how they can accomplish their goals (if they're after money and power, maybe offer a couple subtle suggestions

Amphetryon
2010-06-23, 05:49 AM
Two things:
1) Are your players having fun in your campaign? If yes, then don't worry about whether they're willing and able to spontaneously come up with their own adventure hooks when you say '3-2-1 go!' If no, then address the reasons why this is so. They may have nothing to do with your desire to run a sandbox campaign, or they may have everything to do with your desire to run a sandbox campaign. That play-style isn't everyone's forte.

2)
Originally Posted by Snake-Aes
It's not railroading if they don't notice it.Yes, Xanatos, it is. :smallwink:

Killer Angel
2010-06-23, 06:06 AM
As others have already said, you've given them absolutely nothing to work with. There's nothing interesting going on and nothing meaningful for them to do. You don't have to force-fead them adventure, but you have to give them something.

Why are they in this city? In this particular inn?
How do they know each other? Why are they together?
What interesting things are going on right now? What rumors have they heard?


except it's not what you're saying.
It's not the begin of the campaign, they were playing in that city, they just ended an adventure.
I suppose that, even without rumors heard in previous session, almost all the characters should have something on the "to do list". Especially if they're evil scheming guys.
I, just for once, would be very happy to give the session the direction I want, instead of guessing (or knowing) what the DM expects from me.

Umael
2010-06-23, 10:26 AM
You get a story (or the story goes forward) when one of these things happen:

The characters are lured by the plot hook.
A plot hook is the start of the plotline in which the character is interchangeable with any other character. Something happens, you are there, it has nothing to do with you except that you happen to be there. It lures the PCs into the story by being there, tempting the PCs to interact with it.
DM: You wake up the next morning in the inn. There is the smell of smoke coming from outside your door. What do you do?
The characters are snagged by the plot hook.
As above, only the DM forces the PC to interact with the plotline by putting it there, in the PC's face.
DM: You wake up the next morning in the inn. There is the smell of smoke coming from outside your door. What do you do?
PC: Probably just the bacon burning. I go back to sleep.
DM: ...You go back to sleep. You wake a little later because your room is on fire.
The characters are lured by the character hook.
The story has a direct relationship to the character and is likely there directly or indirectly because of the character. However, it simply waits for the PC to take initiative.
DM: You wake up the next morning in the inn. You had fitful dreams last night that remind you the your childhood at the monastery, especially that one night when the monastery burned down. You feel as if something terrible is about to happen. You think you can even smell smoke coming from outside your door. What do you do?
The characters are snagged by the character hook.
As above, only the DM has the storyline take the initiative.
DM: You wake up the next morning in the inn. You had fitful dreams last night that remind you the your childhood at the monastery, especially that one night when the monastery burned down. You feel as if something terrible is about to happen. You think you can even smell smoke coming from outside your door. No, you don't think you can. You smell smoke!
PC: I scream and jump out the window. "Aaaaaaaahhhh!!!"
The characters are dropped in the middle of exposition.
The DM just starts describing things, possibly even the character's actions, until the player responses.
DM: You wake up the next morning in the inn. There is the smell of smoke coming from outside your door. Before you realize it, you have hopped out of bed and run downstairs, where you see that there is a grease fire in the kitchen. At first it looks like breakfast is burnt, until you realize that there is no one in the kitchen. No, that's not right. Taking a more careful look, you realize the cook is lying on the ground, not moving. The smoke makes it hard to see, so you go into the kitchen-
PC: Forget that! This was obviously an assassination attempt! I'm outta here!
The characters are self-motivated.
The PC initiates a story without the DM having to do anything except respond.
DM: You wake up the next morning in the inn. There is the smell of smoke-
PC: I get up immediately, stagger around, moaning and complaining because of my hangover.
DM: ...um, okay. You smell smoke-
PC: Smoke?! Did I light my pants on fire again?
DM: No, the smoke is-
PC: Wait, I remember now! That cardshark won the pants off me last night!
DM: Um, cardshark?
PC: He obviously cheated! I grab my sword and go barreling downstairs. "Where are you!? Where are you, you trouser-snatcher! I have an issue to address with you!'"
DM: The serving girl looks away from the kitchen to see you, without your pants. She blushes and-
PC: "You!" I level my sword at her. "Tell me where the trouser-snatcher is! He's busted a few of my buttons!"
DM: *in and out of character points helplessly outside* "He... um... thataway!"
PC: I charge off! "Where are my pants, you pathetic pantalooning pilferer!"

Of course, these are not inclusive or exclusive (meaning there are probably other ways to start a story and some stories start because of a combination of the methods above). In the right situation, any of these can be very useful, but in the wrong situation, they will wreck the game.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-23, 10:39 AM
My first response to such a set up would probably be "I kick your wife out of bed and go get breakfast." :smallbiggrin:

(Let's try an experiment... how long does it take Hzurr to notice that one?)

However, a lot is going to depend on what's going on in the campaign. In our current 4e campaign, it would be "I go outside and kill lots of undead." If there's nothing happening, no plots threads that need to be policed, and I don't have any personal business to take care of... then, yeah, I'm going to be at loose ends.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-23, 11:00 AM
As a fan of Thieves Rogues, I'm always happy to have any extra time for opportunistic earning. One of the main benefits of choosing Elf as the race is the 4 hours each night not needed for rest, plus low-light vision. I've always got a "night job". :smallwink: Daytime is good for seeing how and where people spend their money, and how many bodyguards they have following them.

Emmerask
2010-06-23, 11:31 AM
Ever had this happen to you as GM? Its the beginning of the story and...

"You wake up in the morning in the inn. What do you do?"

Their reaction: Silence. All players look at me for suggestions.

They're in a bustling city for crying out loud!

I don't know about you, but I don't like it when players seem to depend on a GM for ideas on what to do. It makes me feel like I'm holding their hand, taking all the fun away from them, not to mention setting me up for taking the blame for a boring adventure later on.

Obviously this is not the first time this has ever happened to a GM. Any advice? Should I just send them down a cave of doom? :smallbiggrin:


Frankly there is not much you can do to create player incentive, everything you could do would most likely create the expectation of plot there and would do the exact opposite of what you like to achieve.

Well you could just sit there and stare at them for an hour and wait for something they want to do now :smallbiggrin:
Thankfully my group always has tons of ideas what they now want to do (outside the plot) so I never had to use the above ^^

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-23, 11:43 AM
Ever had this happen to you as GM? Its the beginning of the story and...

"You wake up in the morning in the inn. What do you do?"

Their reaction: Silence. All players look at me for suggestions.

They're in a bustling city for crying out loud!
No offense, but sounds like DM with little imagination. Is that all you have to give them? Where is the bustling city? Did you describe it to them? Were the players told about what's happening on the streets, the sights, the sounds, local news? Did you even bother describing the inn? Describe the innkeepr and or the serving whench? Name any of them?

All you gave is a completely generic twelve word description. Twelve words. Is that all your players get from their storyteller? If my DM would do that, yeah, I'd sit there befuddled as well. Could you not at least humor them with:

You wake up at dawn in the Green Dragon inn to the sounds of the waking city. Cryers are screaming local news, merchants are setting up their merchandise, wagons and carriages rolling up and down the street, and blacksmiths' hammers strike iron.

See, already a hint of direction. Cryers? Maybe we can listen to some of those local news. Merchants? Might as well sell some of the loot from the previous adventure. Blacksmiths? Oh, that reminds me, I wanted a new suit of armor.

PersonMan
2010-06-23, 11:49 AM
Stuff

Actually, 13 words.

I agree with the rest.

Hzurr
2010-06-23, 11:50 AM
My first response to such a set up would probably be "I kick your wife out of bed and go get breakfast." :smallbiggrin:

(Let's try an experiment... how long does it take Hzurr to notice that one?)


Really? You're going to go for my wife over Wes'? You clearly do not understand the humor potential there. Also, I have a gun.


-----
On Topic:

Put yourself in the PC's place. Let's say you woke up one morning, had no job, nowhere to be, no one waiting on you or counting on you? Possibly have a large amount of disposable cash on hand, perhaps more than you'll need for the rest of your life (depending on what level the PCs are)? If it were me, I'd buy a house and retire. If the PCs have no motivation to go out and kill things or whatever it is that PCs do, why on earth should they risk their lives? Without any financial, moral, or personal reason to go out and adventure, I'd just hang out too.

It's up to the DM to provide at least some hint of plot for the PCs, some reason for the PCs to act. It's that whole "an object at rest tends to stay at rest until acted on by an outside force." Give the PCs a reason to move, and once they're moving, maybe they'll start venturing out to find things on their own.

LibraryOgre
2010-06-23, 11:59 AM
Really? You're going to go for my wife over Wes'? You clearly do not understand the humor potential there. Also, I have a gun.

A) Wes isn't the GM, so he wouldn't be asking me.
B) I hit on her all game ANYWAY. Hell, I'm tempted to have my current Deva reveal that, until recently, he remembered being a human Bard, just to evoke memories of Bjorn and the "grope of opportunity... excuse me, opportunity grope."

On topic, I tend to agree with Hzurr on this. One thing I've been working on with my characters is a "Why in the Nine Hells are they doing this". If I can't answer that about a particular combination of mechanics, I move on... the character will founder.

Sliver
2010-06-23, 12:00 PM
Especially if they're evil scheming guys.

Not all evil schemes. By the OP, there is no support for them being the scheming type. From what I read so far, the OP doubts their evilness because they don't scheme. If they aren't LE, they don't have to scheme to remain evil. Something evil has to be there, but you can be evil in your little everyday life without planning it. See a kid eating ice-cream? Smash it in his face. See a wallet hanging out of someone's pocket? Take it. See an old lady waiting to cross a busy road? Push her into a passing car. All those little harmless evil deeds don't have to be planned. If my character isn't of high INT or WIS, he might not care about plans and will just go for opportunities, so if you tell me he wakes up in an inn, I'll just go and have a meal, looking around for a chance to do some trickery.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-23, 12:43 PM
Not all evil schemes. By the OP, there is no support for them being the scheming type. From what I read so far, the OP doubts their evilness because they don't scheme. If they aren't LE, they don't have to scheme to remain evil. Something evil has to be there, but you can be evil in your little everyday life without planning it. See a kid eating ice-cream? Smash it in his face. See a wallet hanging out of someone's pocket? Take it. See an old lady waiting to cross a busy road? Push her into a passing car. All those little harmless evil deeds don't have to be planned. If my character isn't of high INT or WIS, he might not care about plans and will just go for opportunities, so if you tell me he wakes up in an inn, I'll just go and have a meal, looking around for a chance to do some trickery.

Their choice of alignment is not really the issue as much as it is the fact that they don't have motivations as characters, and thus little incentive to imagine greater choices. Even neutral aligned characters have a desire of some sort to further themselves or someone else (to protect a forest, to save a loved one, etc). But so far they're acting more like entrepreneurs than adventurers. Ironically only the lawful evil monk has a clearly evil objective: to take over his native village. The neutral evil wizard on the other hand merely wants to conquer death.

The victims? No one so far, unless you count the goblins they killed during a negotiation (who were offering them a chance to take over a town). And they're all level 5.

I don't buy the argument that as a GM I have to provide millions of details about the setting to give the players ideas. I provide details of major events, etc, but they ought to "scheme" be they good, neutral or evil. Just as how they react to me, I as a GM react to them.

My GM style is very "sandbox" as Amphetryon put it. I give a good chunk of detail about the campaigns in question, but I always make it a point to my players that they have the freedom to do what they wish. Its just that they haven't yet really took it to heart yet. As others have mentioned, I think a lot of it is that I have yet to break them out of that mindset with adventures that entice them to use their brains, to think for themselves. They've done that only once so far, so perhaps I'm making progress.

Hopefully in time they'll be the scheming bastards that they swear they are. :smallbiggrin:

Math_Mage
2010-06-23, 01:58 PM
A NE wizard who wants to conquer death should do research on immortality. He should hunt for rumors of undying legends. Maybe capture and experiment on longer-lived races or outsiders, searching for the secret to their longevity. Maybe he wants to find a way to transform into an immortal being, rather than simply becoming an immortal human. He should be extremely paranoid about anything that could be a threat to his personal safety (like, say, anyone stronger than him), and proactive in eliminating those threats. If nothing else, he should be looking for liches.

See, the character has an appropriate goal. The player just hasn't put any effort into doing anything about it. The problem is not character motivation, it's player motivation.

Sliver
2010-06-23, 02:04 PM
Well, if you know your players don't like taking initiative, you should encourage them to make a more thought out background with things like goals and hobbies in mind. A character that knows he can't further his goal before he gets stronger through adventuring can go work on improving his reputation as a potato sculpturer.

Umael
2010-06-23, 02:08 PM
I don't buy the argument that as a GM I have to provide millions of details about the setting to give the players ideas. I provide details of major events, etc, but they ought to "scheme" be they good, neutral or evil. Just as how they react to me, I as a GM react to them.

There are two slightly, but distinctively different issues here.

Your players lack the motivation or the imagination or the understanding to "sandbox".
You aren't giving them enough to go on.

You believe that the problem is the former. However, the only thing you can do is correct the latter.

Frustrating, isn't it?

MarvisSahad
2010-06-24, 12:06 AM
Well I've finally done it. The players are now scheming, thinking, planning. They're taking initiative on what they want to do next, and its really taken us all for a ride.

Predictably, they fled the major city I provided them from the threat of a massive hoard of zombie monks. They could had stayed to help out a paladin and a cleric who had a gift from Lathander to save the city, but they didn't. Mind you, this was all located in the fridged wastes of the North. Not only was there a major blizzard occuring for a whole day-and-a-half but the evil entities responsible were producing a darkness that swallowed the sky across much of the continent at the time they decided to leave.

So to make the long story short, the two evil characters easily got lost without a guide and are now in a desert...waging war against a caravan run by slavers...by themselves...purely for their survival (the players ran out of supplies days ago). The magical darkness has long since gone before this point (indicative of the forces of evil being thwarted back in their original city), but by then it was too late for them. They're stuck for now.

They've already eaten their horses, and are now up for one hell of a campaign.
:smallbiggrin:

Thanks everyone for their handy advice.

Knaight
2010-06-24, 12:10 AM
Awesome. Of course, this doesn't mean you shouldn't take a look at Fudge. Go do it. Now. :smallbiggrin:

MarvisSahad
2010-06-24, 12:14 AM
Awesome. Of course, this doesn't mean you shouldn't take a look at Fudge. Go do it. Now. :smallbiggrin:

We're going to start a FUDGE game by the end of this week now that you mention it. Should be fun.

Thajocoth
2010-06-24, 12:17 AM
My GM style is very "sandbox" as Amphetryon put it.This wouldn't work for me. Some people need more direction than a sandbox can provide.

Knaight
2010-06-24, 12:37 AM
We're going to start a FUDGE game by the end of this week now that you mention it. Should be fun.

Awesome. Want help banging some mechanics into shape?

Hague
2010-06-24, 01:23 AM
"Why didn't you take ranks in Survival!?"

I love players who don't bring enough supplies to feed their characters and don't bother to have a ranger or other survival based character.

It's probably time to send them an encounter with something that might be poisonous if they don't make a good Profession (Cooking) test :smalltongue:

Angelmaker
2010-06-24, 03:48 AM
Though most of the time a bag of provisions or something for a low amount of gold just trivializes survival checks. One of the problems with high magic campaigns: The versatilty of magic.

@ campaign: Ok, now we now that your players are out there kicking as. Still, I donīt know what was the solution to your problem. Because, a horde of zombie monks does not sound very sandbox likey and the lack of provisions is provoking taking action. No initiative from your players I can see so far, but instead taking a less sanboxey apporach. What am I missing?

MarvisSahad
2010-06-24, 10:11 AM
@ campaign: Ok, now we now that your players are out there kicking as. Still, I donīt know what was the solution to your problem. Because, a horde of zombie monks does not sound very sandbox likey and the lack of provisions is provoking taking action. No initiative from your players I can see so far, but instead taking a less sanboxey apporach. What am I missing?

What is "sandbox" is me accomodating as a GM to the free actions of the players. I didn't exactly plan on them getting lost and finding a slave caravan in the middle of a desert. I didn't exactly plan on them fleeing the city either. In fact, even though I made it somewhat challenging to leave (with the blizzard and darkness and all) they could had made their task a cinch if they just hired a guide.

Stupidity is not something that is planned in the end. Yet I kept expanding the world as they moved within it, providing details and options along the way yet in no way dictating to them which options were mandatory. Its a very free-style approach. Plus, I can't control the roll of the dice. Now that they're in a quest for their own survival (which is their own fault, the dummies) they really can't flee from it unless they come up with something very very clever. And believe me, they have the potential to overcome this.

MarvisSahad
2010-06-24, 10:14 AM
It's probably time to send them an encounter with something that might be poisonous if they don't make a good Profession (Cooking) test :smalltongue:

LOL. The wizard has been depending on the monk to provide him with food, "Share or I'll blast ya!". Its a perfect symbiotic relationship. The wizard casts Endure Elements and the Monk feeds them both. Unfortunately the luck of the roll can't last forever, even if the monk has 5 ranks in Survival.

Now that I think of it, I probably was too generous letting them roll for a 10 to find food of any kind. There's only so many snakes in the desert you know. :smallbiggrin:

MarvisSahad
2010-06-24, 10:15 AM
Awesome. Want help banging some mechanics into shape?

That would be nice. I'm having some trouble understanding the mechanics of character creation. I already have the original FUDGE PDF but if you have a Dummy's Guide that would be great.