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quiet1mi
2010-06-23, 10:43 AM
After reading Weapons of Legacy, I felt a need to write a campaign incorporating a lot of them...

Unfortunately, the weapons do not seem that powerful compared to properly built PCs... This is when one of my players piped up and mentioned that maybe the party was hired to retrieve the items for a museum.
*Cue Indiana Jones*

The most Indiana Jones setting is Eberron with its varied people and cultures...(Not to mention ancient civilization in deep vast jungles)

I was wondering what you guys thought of it and if any one could give me any pointers on how to GM an Eberron setting for the first time.

The game begins at level 6 and should conclude at level 10.

I made a requirement that all PC have to be optimized to at least Tier 2 and The party is as follows: In quotation is their experience level in optimization and mechanics...
Level 6 Factotum (Experienced Player and a veteran GM at heart)
Level 6 Wizard (Newish Player)
Level 6 Druid (Basic understanding)
Level 6 Artificer (Newish Player)

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-23, 11:09 AM
As long as the Druid player understands that he's probably going to be the main melee, should be fine.

If he understands it well enough, a two level dip into Swordsage would be good.

CyMage
2010-06-23, 12:44 PM
As long as the Druid player understands that he's probably going to be the main melee, should be fine.

If he understands it well enough, a two level dip into Swordsage would be good.

If you're suggesting the SS for Wisdom to AC bonus, a level of Monk would be probably be better. Only looses 1 caster/wildshape/animal companion level.

Greenish
2010-06-23, 12:52 PM
If you're suggesting the SS for Wisdom to AC bonus, a level of Monk would be probably be better. Only looses 1 caster/wildshape/animal companion level.Also gets Power Attack to get the charger build rollin'. Full druid would be better, though.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 12:52 PM
If you're suggesting the SS for Wisdom to AC bonus, a level of Monk would be probably be better. Only looses 1 caster/wildshape/animal companion level.

so does swordsage, with added maneuvers and initiative.

sofawall
2010-06-23, 12:54 PM
so does swordsage, with added maneuvers and initiative.

You are wrong.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 12:58 PM
You are wrong.

Well, unless you tell me why you believe so, don't expect your reply to be of any worth.

Greenish
2010-06-23, 01:01 PM
Well, unless you tell me why you believe so, don't expect your reply to be of any worth.Swordsage gets Wis to AC at level 2, I seem to recall.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-23, 01:02 PM
Swordsage gets Wis to AC at level 2, I seem to recall.

Oh, shucks. I failed to notice that. Well, that's certainly incredibly more productive than "you're wrong".

Anxe
2010-06-23, 01:04 PM
Swordsages still get to wear armor while Monks lose their Wis bonus while wearing armor, so the Swordsage would probably be better.

At least I think that's the case...

EDIT: Also it seems like a good campaign idea. I'd suggest you rip off some other adventure movies. National Treasure, Sahara, The Mummy, Van Helsing. Don't just confine yourself to the Indie series.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-23, 01:08 PM
A 'newish' player trying an Artificer? Oh dear... That would be like me landing a job in the bomb disposal squad.

RandomAction
2010-06-23, 02:47 PM
Nah, that is more like a kobold taking a job as a physical therapist who teaches weight lifiting on the side.

sofawall
2010-06-23, 03:00 PM
Swordsages still get to wear armor while Monks lose their Wis bonus while wearing armor, so the Swordsage would probably be better.

At least I think that's the case...

EDIT: Also it seems like a good campaign idea. I'd suggest you rip off some other adventure movies. National Treasure, Sahara, The Mummy, Van Helsing. Don't just confine yourself to the Indie series.

Swordsages actually lose the armour bonus when wearing no armour. They only get it in light. I suspect it is something that would have been fixed, if ToB didn't suddenly turn into Complete Mage.

Emmerask
2010-06-23, 03:17 PM
Well it can actually explained by swordsages glancing off strikes using the better protected parts of a light armor while the monk simply dodges the attacks.

So Im not completely sure we would have gotten anything regarding this :smallsmile:

CyMage
2010-06-23, 03:24 PM
Swordsages still get to wear armor while Monks lose their Wis bonus while wearing armor, so the Swordsage would probably be better.

At least I think that's the case...

Yes, but by default when you wildshape, your armour melds into your new form. If the druid will be the meatshield, he'll need to be in a wildshaped form. In this case not losing WS levels is just as important as not loosing CL.

And while Swordsage levels give you maneuvers, there are a lot of different Monk variants that give you different bonus feats. As Greenish said, the OVERWHELMING ATTACK (http://dndsrd.net/unearthedCoreClass.html#fighting-styles) variant gives you free Power Attack. But overall, just druid 20 is good enough.

CyMage
2010-06-23, 03:27 PM
Well it can actually explained by swordsages glancing off strikes using the better protected parts of a light armor while the monk simply dodges the attacks.

So Im not completely sure we would have gotten anything regarding this :smallsmile:

As Sofawall said, it's probably a mistake in the book that wasn't fixed by proper errata. As good as ToB is, there are quite a few mistakes/vague abilities/bad wording just like in all other books.

ryzouken
2010-06-23, 04:06 PM
The Factotum will do just fine in melee combat. Or ranged. Or... practically anything else, with enough applications of Font of Inspiration. By lv 6, he could have it 4 times (Human +3 from lvl), giving him 10 extra inspiration points to play with during combats. He'll be able to add Str + Int to all his melee attack and damage rolls, which is significant.

I'm playing a Changeling Factotum right now in a Red Hand of Doom game where the GM opted to start us all at lv 1 since we have 7 players. At lv 3 I started swinging at +10 to hit (non charge, non flank, inspiration point used) with a +1 short sword for d6+8 (inspiration point used). Then I got ahold of a +1 frost bastard sword. d10+d6+9 (inspiration point used) damage per hit started shredding monsters. I'm up to one shotting hellhounds with a good 70% chance to hit.

Don't underestimate the factotum's capacity to do just about anything you need it to.

Morph Bark
2010-06-23, 04:11 PM
EDIT: Also it seems like a good campaign idea. I'd suggest you rip off some other adventure movies. National Treasure, Sahara, The Mummy, Van Helsing. Don't just confine yourself to the Indie series.

I get most of those movies, recently having seen Sahara and loving it, but... Van Helsing? How does that one fit in there? Are we thinking about the same vampire/werewolf/monster movie?

quiet1mi
2010-06-23, 04:13 PM
A 'newish' player trying an Artificer? Oh dear... That would be like me landing a job in the bomb disposal squad.

He likes classes where you can create things, such as dread necromancers (undead), given it is Tier 1 any under optimization would just place it in Tier 2-3...

Worst case scenario: he is an Expert with a tighter skill list, and can craft items for free (both the cost and the feat)...

The idea of Tier 1 is that they are very forgiving, making poor choices does not cripple you to the point of being a hireling...

Amphetryon
2010-06-23, 04:21 PM
The idea of Tier 1 is that they are very forgiving, making poor choices does not cripple you to the point of being a hireling...A poorly designed and played Wizard or Artificer will almost certainly be a drag on the other characters. It's entirely too easy to make a Wizard that functions like a sub-optimal Warmage without the spontaneous casting to save the day. It's entirely too easy to have an Artificer who plays like a bad Rogue that needs weeks of downtime to do anything more productive.

In general, playing a Tier 1 Class close to its presumptive true power requires a fair degree of system mastery from either the player or the DM. The other ways around it usually involve a) playing a Druid or b) dumb luck.

quiet1mi
2010-06-23, 04:29 PM
That is why I will be there to point out more optimal choices spells/tactics, through the use of encounters...

PId6
2010-06-23, 04:47 PM
The idea of Tier 1 is that they are very forgiving, making poor choices does not cripple you to the point of being a hireling...
That is not true. "Hard to screw up" is a hallmark of Tier 3. Both Tier 1 and Tier 2 can be screwed up in the making, especially those who are not divine casters (which don't need to choose their spells). Druids and (to a lesser extent) clerics are hard to screw up; nearly every other Tier 1 and Tier 2 can gimp themselves fairly easily.

Compounded onto this is that Artificers are literally the hardest base class in the game to play, requiring a minigame of micromanagement worse than even what wizards/druids have to deal with. It's not just about good spell/tactical choices; you have to know what you're doing, how you're doing it, and plan ahead every step of the way as you do. With infusions that takes minutes to cast, crafting that takes days to finish, and feat choices that can make or break your character, they are really really bad for new players who aren't completely familiar with their mechanics.

Escheton
2010-06-23, 04:58 PM
But great for players who love digging in and reading up and crafting their brains out.
Something we seem to be dealing with. Necro's take research to pull off well.
I second the swordsage dip, and recommend practiced spellcaster