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View Full Version : Need help to pimp out a fighter and rogue



Olfgar
2010-06-24, 11:27 AM
Ok so, im a brand new DM, and one of my players has played D&D much more than I have and DM'd more and has decided to play as a Knight, acting as the party tank, planning to stack everything he can into con, and then max out his armor to bet the highest AC, Touch nd flat footed i can.

So with that said, i need some help to make an Epic level Fighter/Dwarven defender to be able to hit him once i have them actually fight it. hes going to dual weild Bastard Sword type weapon(hes a character from our previous campaign that we are bringing over from the campaign that the current Knight DM'd and he created these weapons) or, his signature dwarven war axes. I want to make sure that he will be a threat to him, seeing as how hes going to want to fight the fighter in solo combat for revenge purposes.

And if you could help with a rogue as well id love you long time. Im looking for ideas ranging from gear, to feats, to enchants.

Olfgar
2010-06-24, 12:04 PM
cmon, anyone?

Smiling Knight
2010-06-24, 12:10 PM
Not too good of an optimizer myself, but I do know that Dwarven Defender is a trap. You know you have poor class when it's premier ability can be made useless by walking away slowly. If you're trying to help the Knight tank and battlefield control, you could look up Spiked Chain tripping build.

If it is available, Tome of Battle is always fun and hard to mess up.

Edit- Oh, you need an enemy. Most of it still applies, but perhaps give him some ranks in Use Magic Device and a Wand of Grease. That should mess up the Knight, who has probably dumped Dex and has no ranks in Balance.

Flickerdart
2010-06-24, 12:10 PM
You're going about this precisely the wrong way.

Fighter is not very good. Dwarven Defender is even worse. Dual-wielding, especially heavy weapons, especially Exotic weapons, is a terrible idea because it drives your to-hit into the ground without a proportional boost to damage.

If you want to pose a threat to a turtle character, then use debuffs and battlefield control to whittle him down. Throw spell-storing (with Dispel) nets at him to reduce his DEX and suppress his magical bonuses, then grab a two-handed weapon with Power Attack, Leap Attack and all the rest and cleave him in twain with a single blow.

Mongoose87
2010-06-24, 12:13 PM
You know, I've never seen a real attempt to optimize the Dwarven Defender. It always degenerates into discussion of how useless it is, without anyone at least giving it the same shot at mediocrity that monks get.

Yora
2010-06-24, 12:14 PM
Are you talking about epic-cool or epic-level?
Running a game at 1st level is still quite a challenge for a new gm, an epic level game would probably be impossible to run for the first time. Even if you start just at 7th level, it will still be not an easy thing to try.

Grumman
2010-06-24, 12:17 PM
For the fighter/dwarven defender, I'd suggest using Warblade instead. It's more powerful, and you can use Stone Dragon stances to mimic the usual DD stuff.

If you're planning on standing still all the time, a four level dip in Bloodstorm Blade would probably help, so that you can make melee attacks at range.

I'd also suggest a two level dip in Deepwarden, which lets you add your CON instead of your DEX bonus to AC.

For the rogue, I'd suggest a Spellthief/Wizard or Spellthief/Beguiler with Unseen Seer.

Flickerdart
2010-06-24, 12:17 PM
You know, I've never seen a real attempt to optimize the Dwarven Defender. It always degenerates into discussion of how useless it is, without anyone at least giving it the same shot at mediocrity that monks get.
DDs are only useful in 5ft corridors. Unless you can bring it with you, the DD is useless.

Wagadodo
2010-06-24, 12:22 PM
The dwarven defender is good in its role. Your typical dwarven defender is not going to be an offensive magnet. But I played a Knight/Dwarven Defender and he was servicable in his pursuit. With his come fight me stick it was pretty nice.

But going a dual wield dwarven defender might not work that well. But it could be fun to try. The thing is you are going to have to overcome the guys AC. With a dual wield build you are losing -2 to hit... But at Epic level of fighter you should be hitting at least your first two attacks. I wouldn't go past Two Weapon fighting because your main stat is going to be str. You need to be able hit things hard on a regular basis.

Olfgar
2010-06-24, 12:24 PM
oh i did start it at 1st level, but im planning to make them, well the knight at leats, fight the Dwarf at high levels.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-24, 12:25 PM
Rogues are challenging to construct, and equally challenging to play effectively. If you've got no firmer idea than "Epic level" for the type of character you need, I'm afraid you haven't put enough thought into this exercise to be able to play a character effectively even if someone else did all the work of creating them.

I suggest you think things through some more on your own, and try to define your goals first. Come back with a less open-ended request and maybe you'll get more useful input.

Flickerdart
2010-06-24, 12:25 PM
But going a dual wield dwarven defender might not work that well. But it could be fun to try. The thing is you are going to have to overcome the guys AC. With a dual wield build you are losing -2 to hit... But at Epic level of fighter you should be hitting at least your first two attacks. I wouldn't go past Two Weapon fighting because your main stat is going to be str. You need to be able hit things hard on a regular basis.
Except he wants to dual-wield Bastard Swords or Dwarven Waraxes, which is a -4 penalty even with TWF.

gallagher
2010-06-24, 12:29 PM
if you could make bullrush attempts without moving, have the knights challenge ability, and mixed in levels of barbarian for rage (all the bonuses to strength that you can get are going to be useful) will make the DD at least decent. as i see it, you should go: Barbarian 1 (the totem that gives you improved trip, i think that its wolf)/Knight 3/ Paladin of Freedom 3/ Dwarven Defender 8 (gives you the ability to 5 foot step in your stance, which could be important)/Crusader 5 (for stances and maneuvers)

this should at least give you a decent tank. you will not be a good solo-er, because the build is designed for defending your teammates. you need to maximize Cha, Con, and Str (not necessarily in that order). take extra rage so you can rage more often. get a ring of blink for miss chance (and so you cant be sneak attacked from a flanking rogue). Challenge everyone that you can, and defend the hell out of the hallway

Olfgar
2010-06-24, 12:30 PM
and yeah, i was thinking about taking off the levels of DD, because this was the character I played in the campaign that the Knight DM'd, and he asked if we could link the 2 campaigns together somehow in little ways, like have mine take place on a seperate continent. The whole revenge thing is because my fighter and his allies were responsible for the death of the Knights emporer, and the weapons hes using were from the Emporer the died.

And since im DM now, i can just remake my dwarf in anyway id want. and I was planning on taking Two Weapon fighting, and My main stat was goingt o be Str, followed by Con.

Flickerdart
2010-06-24, 12:31 PM
The DD must be Lawful, so he can't be a Barbarian, and must be a dwarf, so he can't take Half-Orc Paragon. No rage.

Olfgar
2010-06-24, 12:34 PM
Also, the rogue was just an off Idea, my main concern is the fighter im throwing at them. Drunken angry beard of legs coverd in armor....sounds pleasetnt no? And yes, I wont be taking Dwarven Defender intot he fighter build anymroe.

And im not going to lie, since the rogue was just an off idea, i was mainly thinking of like 60d6 of whirling sneak attack death thats very hard to spot untill the opening attack. Im just coming up with characters one at a time.

Flickerdart
2010-06-24, 12:40 PM
And im not going to lie, since the rogue was just an off idea, i was mainly thinking of like 60d6 of whirling sneak attack death thats very hard to spot untill the opening attack. Im just coming up with characters one at a time.
The Knight would be a fool not to get Heavy Fortification, making that useless.

gallagher
2010-06-24, 12:42 PM
The DD must be Lawful, so he can't be a Barbarian, and must be a dwarf, so he can't take Half-Orc Paragon. No rage.
whoops, i was just thinking non-chaotic.

ok, how about this, ditch the DD, and take Crusader levels instead. a knight 3/crusader X would still do marvelously in this role. have Stone Dragon maneuvers and stances, since many of those stances will most likely not let you move much anyway, it perfectly emulates dwarven defender. it also relieves the pain of having to be lawful and a dwarf (for the penalty to CHA)

Aharon
2010-06-24, 12:48 PM
Well, for one, you could use slightly more useful feats to get into the class - Azure Toughness is slightly better than Toughness, and counts as Toughness. Improved Toughness lacks this clause, but you might convice your DM that it is meant to be the same way.
Dodge can be replaced by Desert Wind Doge, Expeditious Dodge and Midnight Dodge, though both Desert Wind Dodge and Expeditious Dodge clash with the Dwarven Defenders ability/wish to stand still lots of times.

Also, he cannot move himself, but he can be moved by Dimension Door/Benign Transposition without losing the benefits of his stance, can't he?
Otherwise, there's also the Training Dummy of the Master, that allows you to take 10ft. steps with your capstone instead of 5ft. steps.

Gallaghers Advice isn't bad though. I guess it takes lots of work to optimize the Dwarven Defender. Isn't there even a Dwarven Flavored class in Tome of Battle that does about the same thing?

Curmudgeon
2010-06-24, 01:06 PM
The Knight would be a fool not to get Heavy Fortification, making that useless.
No, not useless; that sort of obstacle is just part of why an effective Rogue is challenging to construct. 100% Fortification merely means the Rogue would need to flank the Knight with the Penetrating Strike ACF, and they'd get normal sneak attack dice + full Craven bonus damage + 2 points of STR damage (with Crippling Strike and Savvy Rogue) each hit.

Flickerdart
2010-06-24, 01:08 PM
The Knight, as the OP points out, has a sky-high AC. "Every hit" isn't going to be very many hits, especially on a Rogue.

gallagher
2010-06-24, 01:12 PM
No, not useless; that sort of obstacle is just part of why an effective Rogue is challenging to construct. 100% Fortification merely means the Rogue would need to flank the Knight with the Penetrating Strike ACF, and they'd get normal sneak attack dice + full Craven bonus damage + 2 points of STR damage (with Crippling Strike and Savvy Rogue) each hit.

lets just hope that the defender doesnt take robilards gambit or karmic strike. having damage reduction and a damage pool makes karmic strike loads better, and the attack resolves before yours IIRC. high defense nonetheless, he is doing what he excels at, and that is dealing damage when you are in front of him

Curmudgeon
2010-06-24, 01:24 PM
lets just hope that the defender doesnt take robilards gambit or karmic strike. having damage reduction and a damage pool makes karmic strike loads better, and the attack resolves before yours IIRC.
Nope; after.
Resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack. Plus, if the Rogue has dipped Shadowdancer for Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight and maxed out Hide (which is the only sensible way to go) then the Knight has no AoO anyway because you can't attack someone with total concealment. The poor Knight has only (2 + INT mod) skill points, and both Spot and Listen are cross-class. Sucks to be clueless. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-06-24, 02:55 PM
Epic Dwarven Defender versus epic AC + HP focused Knight is going to be a cool fight.

For the first ten rounds, at least.

gallagher
2010-06-24, 03:17 PM
Epic Dwarven Defender versus epic AC + HP focused Knight is going to be a cool fight.

For the first ten rounds, at least.
knight: "come and fight me!"
defender: "no, you come and fight me!"

Torvon
2010-06-24, 03:40 PM
You are the DM.

YOU know the weakness of the charater.

It's a DM's job to provide challenges.

So, what IS the weakness? Very low Dex? No ranks in tumble or balance? Low will save? Or low relfex save?

Low touch AC maybe?

After you provide us with details, help is much more easily provided here.

PLaying a Knight myself, they have quite weak fortitude saves (full will, half fortitude and reflex progression). He has a high constitution, I'm sure, but you could try to work with a high DC poison to f*ck him over. Or just trip him all day long, since tripping is against touch AC. Or even disarm him with a strength monster, if his strength is not very high.


Etc

ta-ta
T.

Grumman
2010-06-24, 04:12 PM
knight: "come and fight me!"
defender: "no, you come and fight me!"
Have you ever seen the fight between Cyril Raffaelli and Jet Li in Kiss of the Dragon?

That's what comes to mind here.