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warlock2000
2010-06-27, 10:17 AM
So I've had this idea bouncing around in my head for the past two weeks since I looked up this particular board. What if we gathered up a number of the homebrew items here, with the permission of the creators of course, I compile them into a pdf, and we start sort of like a mailing list for new D20 content every month or every other? Not only would it get the homebrew out there but all the stuff designed could be expanded on in later installments. The content would all be free and credit would be given to the people how create it. What do people think? Good or horrible idea?

Morph Bark
2010-06-27, 10:22 AM
Good idea, but incredibly hard to pull off. You'd need editors and artists and at least one person knowledgeable in the creation of PDFs.

Mulletmanalive
2010-06-27, 10:54 AM
Been tried. Not worked in 4 years last count, if my math is right.

Things inevitably fall apart somewhere in the editorial process. I think the guy who used to mastermind such things was banned; not sure if it's related.

DonEsteban
2010-06-27, 10:58 AM
Good idea, but why don't you create a wiki for it. Or, better still, use one of the existing ones like this (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) or this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Homebrew).

Draconi Redfir
2010-06-27, 10:58 AM
i say its at least worth a try. i know of a guy who might be willing to draw the art so long as its not overly violent/gruesome. color might be an issue however.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-06-27, 11:20 AM
Been tried. Not worked in 4 years last count, if my math is right.

Things inevitably fall apart somewhere in the editorial process. I think the guy who used to mastermind such things was banned; not sure if it's related.
If you mean JackMann he went into the military. Isn't banned to my knowledge.

warlock2000
2010-06-27, 11:44 AM
Well I can do up the pdfs and would setup a mailing account. As for art unless donated it would be just text. I am sure though if it got off the ground it could be huge. Is there any interest in joining this cause?

un_known
2010-06-27, 11:44 AM
I know how to make PDF's and to work with them so if you need help in that area talk with me.

Debihuman
2010-06-27, 12:23 PM
It's a great idea, but you're asking for a LOT of work. I speak from experience. First, I've worked as a professional proofreader and copywriter. Second, I've also done the same for four gaming netbooks.

boring background stuff here


I've edited, proofread and created the pdf for Bhu's The Cat Burglar, and edited and proofread for Zeta Kai's FFX-D20 . Both of those were projects on this forum. Previously, I've worked on OZ OGL by Grimgrin, where I edited, proofread and created the pdf for that project. It started as a thread on the WotC's site and just ballooned into a netbook.

Prior to that, I worked on Liber Mysterium:The Netbook of Witches and Warlocks by Tim Brannan. Liber Mysterium was an "official" netbook back when we had to get contributor numbers from WotC to even work on it. I'm listed as an editor on that as well although I did a little writing for it too.

Creating a netbook isn't an easy thing. It usually means arguing over the rules. I'm a stickler for standardization (Just ask Bhu and Zeta). Tim would say the same thing. Grim's I did strictly for myself and didn't even show it to him until it was complete. It avoided the rules arguments, but I didn't have any feeback until it was over.

Also, what standards would you use?

More boring background stuff here:

There are a lot of house rules and odd mechanics in homebrewed stuff. If you really want to maximize the number of DMs who will use that material, you have to change things for standard OGL. Otherwise it's not going to be useful to anyone who doesn't use that particular house rule. If you want to put out the best product out there, then that's what needs to be done.

Just ask all the writers on Liber Mysteriaum who were peeved because I took the "k" out of magic (except for the made up names of magic books like: "Ye Olde Tome of Magickal Beasts". You'd have thought I was asking for them to give me their first born child! It was easier to make the grammar and spelling changes from British to American by myself than to ask the writers to do it. Writers aren't necessarily good grammarians.

I think Zeta wanted to kill me when I made him change the ranges of attack for every single monster.
Lastly, damn you DebiHuman. Damn you to hell, with your "good ideas" & your "well-reasoned suggestions". See here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5254545&postcount=624. .

Debby

Mulletmanalive
2010-06-27, 01:23 PM
If you mean JackMann he went into the military. Isn't banned to my knowledge.

Got confused with the dude who set up the homebrewer's sig thread. Wasn't he also the guy who tried to resurrect Footprints? Or was that you?

Jota
2010-06-27, 01:51 PM
Good idea, but why don't you create a wiki for it. Or, better still, use one of the existing ones like this (http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page) or this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3.5e_Homebrew).

Feel compelled to say that:

a) The first on you mention is being absorbed into this one (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page), though I think the name may be changed back to dnd.wikia once the absorption is complete (not totally sure about that).

b) The second one is really quite mediocre, and in turn really quite awful compared to the former.

c) Sysop on the aforementioned dungeons.wikia (Surgo) was the one who tried to re-kindle the process here on GitP sometime in the last six months or so (not sure when exactly). IIRC, the issue was not with submissions, which were available in abundance, but with critiques for said submissions, which were not quite as forthcoming.

warlock2000
2010-06-27, 04:06 PM
Ok, let me start off with I do understand this would be a great deal of work on those involved. But I am not looking at starting huge. I was thinking maybe 3ish classes maybe 2ish races, some feats and a junk drawer section to start things off. If there is more great. My goal would to improve each installment, rather then starting with perfection. I am thinking it's only going to be a few pages the first few and expand from there. I am not looking to change the world of RPGs, I am just looking for my place within said world beyond the gaming table.

@un known I do have programs to make pdfs but I am always willing to learn more.

@Debihuman I do understand there will be work involved and on a volunteer/free project I will be stuck with a lot of the boring stuff myself. But I feel I need a project of RPG flavor. I very much agree with you about the Standardization of the base rules. The OGL would be the guide. There may be exceptions from abilities inherent to the race or class but the base rules would remain. But there would be spots to showcase such rules that people seem to like as a separate part within the pdf.

@DonEsteban I have a personal dislike wiki, but I am not looking to debate the Pros and Cons here, this thread is just to determine if I should follow through with setting this up and distributing such a collection of work.

Note: I don't doubt the work load, I basically want to know if the interest is there. Would you like a pdf package each month with homebrewed content to plug into your games? Or on the flip side would you want have your stuff seen and shared by others?

Morph Bark
2010-06-27, 05:01 PM
Note: I don't doubt the work load, I basically want to know if the interest is there. Would you like a pdf package each month with homebrewed content to plug into your games? Or on the flip side would you want have your stuff seen and shared by others?

I would love that, personally. Might have stuff I haven't otherwise looked into, or give it a new look over. I'd prefer it if a team of people well-known with rules and power levels in DnD would have looked it over enough and given their "go" to publish the thing (as well as of course the creator's permission).

A seperate section could be devoted to older homebrewed content that might have missed the spotlight and deserves some more attention, or things that are just so awesome the people should get a new look at it.

warlock2000
2010-06-27, 08:43 PM
Well anything done would need the creators permission of course, but I understand where your going.

For Valor
2010-06-27, 09:39 PM
I don't think art is very necessary.

You can copy a class down pretty quickly (change the tables to the prettier Excel version and copy them into a Word Doc) with its abilities and all, since everythings already written up.

Then you paste that onto your e-mail/forum post/whatever or throw it on as an attachment. Pretty quick. All we really need is editing.

--------------------------------------------------------

Another idea is to get contributions from people/groups who want their stuff pdf-ed. If someone wants to get all the stuff from the "Tears of Blood" project and make it into a pdf, then they can submit it to some group of editors who look it over and then put it on a big forum that has links to Scribd or Rapidshare or something.

That way the homebrew moves at its own pace (and there's a controlled database for all of it), and new stuff that gets OK'd could be put out once a month/2 weeks.

No art required. Not unless you do it yourself.

warlock2000
2010-06-28, 12:37 PM
I don't think art is very necessary.

You can copy a class down pretty quickly (change the tables to the prettier Excel version and copy them into a Word Doc) with its abilities and all, since everythings already written up.

Then you paste that onto your e-mail/forum post/whatever or throw it on as an attachment. Pretty quick. All we really need is editing.

--------------------------------------------------------

Another idea is to get contributions from people/groups who want their stuff pdf-ed. If someone wants to get all the stuff from the "Tears of Blood" project and make it into a pdf, then they can submit it to some group of editors who look it over and then put it on a big forum that has links to Scribd or Rapidshare or something.

That way the homebrew moves at its own pace (and there's a controlled database for all of it), and new stuff that gets OK'd could be put out once a month/2 weeks.

No art required. Not unless you do it yourself.

This is exactly the kind of thing I mean. Just need peoples permission and a list to send to. Will put some framework up tomorrow and hopefully get some bites of interest.

Susano-wo
2010-06-28, 12:56 PM
I think the Wiki idea is good, or even if you weren't going to wiki it, some sort of Database. Then you could have a monthly newsletter detailing new additions, but it would be easy to search through the archives, rather than trying to figure out with of many PDF's it was in. (of course, if you could attach yourself to an already existing Wiki, that would make things easier, since you would already have content up)


Also, Debi: Thank you so much for your sig. I've been trying to figure out what the heck PEACH is since I started looking at the homebrew forums! :P

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-28, 01:02 PM
The problem with the attempts I've seen is that there is little quality control. The D&D wiki, for example, is kind of a pit of terror if you go in looking for a balanced class that fits into the philosophy of D&D.

This will only work if you can get a good team of people to judge the content, and maybe write a brief little introduction to each piece telling the reader what to expect from it in game. These people need to be known and respected quantities in the homebrew world, and people who can actually judge balance. We'd need permission from people submitting work allowing us to edit their work in order to make it fit our balance, flavor, and content requirements. Highly specific base classes, for example, have no place in 3.5, but the D&D wiki is FULL of them. A "Gravity Knight" would be a Prestige Class, for example. A Knight, on the other hand, is a base class.

People like Realms of Chaos, Krimm Blackleaf, The Demented One, Fax Celestis, ErrantX, and, if I may be so blunt, myself might be good options for reviewers/editors/content police.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-28, 01:27 PM
The "dungeons.wikia.com" wiki, as opposed to the D&D Wiki, has much better quality control. Or, at least, it's supposed to, and I know everything I've put up there has seen at least some critique, though I haven't browsed what they have very thoroughly.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-28, 01:48 PM
My wiki (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php) has pretty good QA, if you ask me. :smalltongue:

Hyooz
2010-06-28, 01:54 PM
I'd be willing to invest some time in such a project as an assistant editor of sorts. Djinn's list is quite excellent for the highest level of editing, but I think a team of assistant editor types would be ideal to keep from dumping all the work on them and preventing them from making their own homebrew :smalltongue:

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-28, 01:56 PM
I'd be willing to invest some time in such a project as an assistant editor of sorts. Djinn's list is quite excellent for the highest level of editing, but I think a team of assistant editor types would be ideal to keep from dumping all the work on them and preventing them from making their own homebrew :smalltongue:

I would also be willing to assist in quality control and editting, as critiquing and editting homebrew is something I enjoy doing. As a warning, hwoever, I'm extremely harsh in my criticism, and have fairly high standards. :smallredface:

Mulletmanalive
2010-06-28, 03:59 PM
The "dungeons.wikia.com" wiki, as opposed to the D&D Wiki, has much better quality control. Or, at least, it's supposed to, and I know everything I've put up there has seen at least some critique, though I haven't browsed what they have very thoroughly.

Last i checked, they were basically copies of each other. Heck, some of the unfinished articles from years before seem to have been transfered over.

T'was most disppointing, especially considering the original start with Frank and K's stuff with the smug trimmed a little was a good read...

warlock2000
2010-06-29, 12:45 PM
@Susano-wo - A database may be a good idea but I still dislike wiki. I may figure out something, maybe a master list every 5 issues detailing where stuff is.

@Djinn_In_Tonic - you have an excellent point. I will take you advice and message those people to see if any of them have any interest in this project.

In general I want to thank everyone again this advice is very useful, but please no more wiki suggestions.

Susano-wo
2010-06-29, 01:39 PM
Yeah, I wasn't really suggesting a wiki, just saying that it would probably be better than just a newsletter--I much prefer the database idea, due to the Quality Control issue mentioned (no offense meant to Fax or her Wiki...I don't know anything about the QA on it...just talking theoretically ^ ^)

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-29, 02:00 PM
Yeah, I wasn't really suggesting a wiki, just saying that it would probably be better than just a newsletter--I much prefer the database idea, due to the Quality Control issue mentioned (no offense meant to Fax or her Wiki...I don't know anything about the QA on it...just talking theoretically ^ ^)

Fax's wiki has exceptional quality control, from what I've seen. Mainly because you have to be approved to have an account there. :smallbiggrin:

Analysis
2010-06-29, 04:46 PM
There is a potentially large problem in that a lot of homebrew people make builds on non-OGL material. Binding, Incarnum, Shadowcasting, Invocations, Truenaming, Maneuvers, Auras and so forth are not OGL. Beguilers, Duskblades, Archivists and Dread Necromancers are not OGL. Including anything that expands these subsystems in a published homebrew compendium means taking a potentially large legal risk. Which is quite sad.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-29, 05:00 PM
There is a potentially large problem in that a lot of homebrew people make builds on non-OGL material. Binding, Incarnum, Shadowcasting, Invocations, Truenaming, Maneuvers, Auras and so forth are not OGL. Beguilers, Duskblades, Archivists and Dread Necromancers are not OGL. Including anything that expands these subsystems in a published homebrew compendium means taking a potentially large legal risk. Which is quite sad.
This thought occurred to me just yesterday. I wonder if it's possible to receive permission to refer to and expand upon these subsystems in an official capacity...

For Valor
2010-06-29, 07:43 PM
This thought occurred to me just yesterday. I wonder if it's possible to receive permission to refer to and expand upon these subsystems in an official capacity...

It certainly might be, though I'd expect a solid "No" from WotC.

Anyways, I'd say that the best idea if we want to make pdfs from here on out is to take TDO's stuff, DragoonWraith's stuff, the old F&K stuff (balanced to tier 3-ish, usually), give some quick tier assignments, and turn them into pdfs separately.

Releasing 1-3 classes a week, along with whatever stuff goes with them, seems like a good idea for a slow publishing progression, which will give time for whoever the main editor is to post something on a form, get it critiqued and changed, and then make it a pdf.

What say we start on something really easy? F&K's "Races of War" has the new Barbarian, which is a nice Tier 4 class. Grab a couple other "smash things" classes (anybody got some of those?) and we can make our first pdf!

DragoonWraith
2010-06-29, 07:56 PM
It certainly might be, though I'd expect a solid "No" from WotC.
So would I.

Poppatomus
2010-06-29, 08:04 PM
Always an interesting Idea. As quality control goes, there's always the board vote system (require ideas posted to receive a certain number of votes before consideration in the final.) That's how MitP II did it, years ago. Does anyone remember what happened with that one?

warlock2000
2010-06-29, 10:10 PM
@Analysis - Yes they are band and any almost identical system. However it doesn't stop us from creating new things. We can design our own. There are limits to what can be a copy right but we, I feel shouldn't push it, so we just avoid what we can't expand and just make our own things to expand. (It's late and I hope this makes sense.)

@For valor - We just can't take stuff we need those peoples permission. Also let's not rush, this is building steam quickly so I don't want to derail. I am sure a theme might be a good plan to start though. Suggestions?

What's MitP ?

Poppatomus
2010-06-30, 05:29 PM
Monster in the Playground. It was an attempt to do this back in 07, when i was last semi-active on the board. The links in my signature block point to some of my contributions, and a search for MitP would turn up others. It was just getting into the collate/edit/publish phase when I disappeared for a bit.

warlock2000
2010-07-01, 12:48 PM
Question: If a third party published under the OGL license does it become OGL content. Because there are a few things out there that used auras and other abilities long before Wizards.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-07-01, 02:33 PM
There is a potentially large problem in that a lot of homebrew people make builds on non-OGL material. Binding, Incarnum, Shadowcasting, Invocations, Truenaming, Maneuvers, Auras and so forth are not OGL. Beguilers, Duskblades, Archivists and Dread Necromancers are not OGL. Including anything that expands these subsystems in a published homebrew compendium means taking a potentially large legal risk. Which is quite sad.

Untrue, I believe. You can work with them as much as you want, provided you don't mention the rules that they operate under.

I can make a class feature that says "whenever you use your Dark Knowledge ability, do X" or an alternate use for a Dark Knowledge ability, or I can make a homebrew Martial Discipline or Shadowcasting PrC with new mysteries. I simply can't quote any rules text or explain how the intellectually copyrighted abilities work.

Debihuman
2010-07-01, 02:50 PM
If a third party published under the OGL license does it become OGL content. Because there are a few things out there that used auras and other abilities long before Wizards.

Ans: Not necessarily. OGL is the license that is used, but every publisher advises what is and isn't open content in its book.

See section 8 of the License:


8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.

Not everything published under OGL is open content. Things considered Product Identity are rarely open content. Artwork generally isn't. You have to read each book to find out what is considered open and what isn't. In fact, you can publish under the license and declare that nothing is open content--though that might not be in your best interest as nobody else can cite to it and even having your name in another publication can put your name out there. I found some books simply by reading the license that I might otherwise have missed.

One of my favorite resources is the Tome of Horrors i by Necromancer Games (an imprint of White Wolf) because it contains mostly open content but not the artwork, the credits and the advertising material along with a few other things like the covers, material in the preface, etc. It even has a section on how to use the OGL properly (as in how to cite to the book's open content and who has to be given credit). It's frequently cited in Paizo's Pathfinder line because it contains so much open content.

I hope this clarifies things for you.

Debby

--Lime--
2010-07-01, 04:26 PM
I am very very interested in this project. It's just a shame that the timing is so bad.

I've been the editor of an award-winning newsletter before, and I can be quite handy with a pencil when it comes to art. I'll say this now to refer to once I'm back from China (3 months...) but can someone keep me up to date with its progress? If there's an opening to help out, I'd like to get into it when I return, or if it falls through or the editor flakes or whatever I'd be happy to step in once I'm back, or create another incarnation of it.

For Valor
2010-07-04, 02:10 AM
DragoonWraith... you've got a melee class... right?

EDIT: Nvm. Must've been someone else--you're a crazy magic guy.

EDIT2: Alright! So, in lieu of the winds of change not moving here, I took the opportunity to make a quick sampler (http://www.scribd.com/doc/33878874/Smash) on Scribd. My computer doesn't have Adobe Reader, so could anyone tell me if they can download the file in PDF format?

I did that pretty quickly... well, a couple hours quickly, actually. How does it look for a PDF update-thing?

If that doesn't work, a .doc or .docx can be converted for free here (http://www.freepdfconvert.com/). I've used it before, and it doesn't screw me over with viruses or anything (and you should see the firewall on this thing... it blows..).

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-07-04, 08:42 AM
DragoonWraith... you've got a melee class... right?

EDIT: Nvm. Must've been someone else--you're a crazy magic guy.

EDIT2: Alright! So, in lieu of the winds of change not moving here, I took the opportunity to make a quick sampler (http://www.scribd.com/doc/33878874/Smash) on Scribd. My computer doesn't have Adobe Reader, so could anyone tell me if they can download the file in PDF format?

I did that pretty quickly... well, a couple hours quickly, actually. How does it look for a PDF update-thing?

If that doesn't work, a .doc or .docx can be converted for free here (http://www.freepdfconvert.com/). I've used it before, and it doesn't screw me over with viruses or anything (and you should see the firewall on this thing... it blows..).

...that IS just a test, right? Please tell me it's just a test...those classes are...um...yeah. :smalleek:

DragoonWraith
2010-07-04, 10:38 AM
Didn't read it, but did decide that I really don't like Scribd. Too many ads, too much bustle, etc. Making a real PDF is not that difficult and will look much better.

And... I do have some melee classes. The Dancer, the Bound, the Cabal Warlock, the Swordmage...

warlock2000
2010-07-04, 12:44 PM
Sorry for not posting in a couple days. Today/Night I will get some order to all this if everyone is ok with that.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2010-07-04, 01:58 PM
Personally, I think this would work better as a forum compilation, not a pdf. Let homebrewers send you links to their material, and then each month make a new thread with a list of stuff and a poll so people can vote on what they like. Then keep a master thread (maybe get it stickied by an admin) with links to each month's thread.

Vaynor
2010-07-04, 04:11 PM
Well, there's the compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120075), but I'm not sure how much that's updated.

Edit: It seems to have been last updated about 4 months ago. Shame.

Diabolical
2010-07-04, 05:09 PM
I also like this idea.

@Vaynor I have to ask, is your avatar inspired by the abarat?

Vaynor
2010-07-04, 05:29 PM
Indeed it is. Clive Barker is awesome. :smallsmile:

Diabolical
2010-07-04, 05:51 PM
I agree Clive Barker is very very awesome :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: ...but now i kind of want an abarat avatar...damnit!

Vaynor
2010-07-04, 06:16 PM
You can request one here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122056).

For Valor
2010-07-04, 06:38 PM
...that IS just a test, right? Please tell me it's just a test...those classes are...um...yeah. :smalleek:

Que?

The first and third are recognized, but not widely used, across dungeons wikia, and the 2nd is something that most homebrewers there look up to when making a melee class.

Of course, there are plenty of people who think that sort of stuff is awful and imbalanced. It's very entertaining to me when those are the same people who play swordsages.

DragoonWraith: the only thing that Scribd would be usable for is making that pdf. You don't even need to look at the document on Scribd after you download the pdf. However, different strokes... I suppose we'll get to that later.

As for melee classes, I meant "melee", I meant simple melee. The sublime bard doesn't count because you need to reference other things (not just the class). The swordmage uses magic (referencing other things), and the Bound is a PrC. I might not have specified, but the ideal for the sampler was Base classes. I also have no idea what the Cabal Warlock is... I can haz link?

Concerning the Compendium: The idea of continuing the Compendium is bothersome to me. As nice as it is (being already filled with goodies), it's not something I can use when my internet cuts out, and it's not something I can throw on a USB drive or CD to pull up when I've got an internet filter at my school. It also won't look as pretty.

Jota
2010-07-04, 07:06 PM
...that IS just a test, right? Please tell me it's just a test...those classes are...um...yeah. :smalleek:

Chalk me up as confused by this as well. I don't think that the first or third are overpowered against their intended balance points (and the Races of War Barbarian is Tome, so that sort of speaks for itself, though I admit unfamiliarity with the material might incite incredulity; I know it did in my case), so maybe you could elaborate?

Rin_Hunter
2010-07-04, 07:40 PM
I'm all for this, but have a few suggestions.

First, I agree that a monthly thread is the best thing for this and allows people to vote.

Secondly, if the monthly thread is used then why can't a companion pdf be created each month after the vote for what goes in?

Third, my copy of Microsoft word can save directly as a pdf. I have no problem with saving it for whoever puts it together.

Feel free to look over my Variant Systems thread and contact me if you want to include anything.

Hyooz
2010-07-04, 07:46 PM
Dungeons wikia, as has been noted, is far from the best source for material, and runs rampant with oddly designed classes and general... "don't look up to this"-ness.

I can't vouch for the power level of them, but part of Djinn's distaste might be that two of those classes totally miss the point of base classes. One has the ability to control gravity and the other manufactures venom in its own body. Those are very much prestige class concepts.

I'm also not a fan of the inclusion of the tier indicators with the classes on the PDF. Part of that is just not being a fan of the proliferation of the tier system in general, and the other part is that it's just... tacky. As long as a class isn't deliriously broken one way or another, then really, it doesn't matter. It's very easy to play a wizard and not insta-kill every encounter. It doesn't even require nerfing yourself, it just requires you come into a game with the mindset that "hey, I'm not here to ruin the game. I'm here to have fun."

Jota
2010-07-04, 09:04 PM
Dungeons wikia, as has been noted, is far from the best source for material, and runs rampant with oddly designed classes and general... "don't look up to this"-ness.

As someone who contributes to both, I don't really think you have a point here. Every community is different. GitP is notable (in my opinion) for it's overwhelming acceptance of Tome of Battle-style mechanics and breadth of knowledge concerning expanded magic systems, but it's not very good at accepting and critiquing tier one or two material, including psionics, for example (again, still my opinion). It (GitP) is usually quite good for ensuring someone takes a look at your creation (which wikis sometimes fail hard at, especially dandwiki) and offers some kind of feedback, but I feel it venerates its veterans too much, and is a bit too wrapped up in its own conventions. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good that people can earn respect and I have no issue with those individuals, but I think devil's advocates are shouted down too easily and progress is sometimes hindered for it.

To look at someplace nearly entirely the opposite, The Gaming Den (http://tgdmb.com/index.php?sid=f59c2528d390b4f63d777f50027e2a10), on the other hand, sometimes seems solely about tier one or two material and can be (is?) downright hostile/brutally honest with its feedback. I'd wager some of the most respected homebrewers here could go over there and be ridiculed, and that fact isn't something that should reflect poorly on them; it's just a reflection of that community's values.

Furthermore, you call into question this "'don't look up to this'-ness" that exists everywhere on the internet, including here on GitP. It's called Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law). The primary difference is GitP has these things get ignored and then purged, whereas wikis do not necessarily have the same luxury. There's quality material everywhere (mostly) you go, just as there is bound to be crap, so I'm just going to reiterate that I really feel your comment has no basis.


I can't vouch for the power level of them, but part of Djinn's distaste might be that two of those classes totally miss the point of base classes. One has the ability to control gravity and the other manufactures venom in its own body. Those are very much prestige class concepts.

See, now this is something that comes directly from Djinn's guide, and I won't say his guide is wrong (in part because it is an opinion), but there's absolutely no reason these things cannot be base classes. If you take said guide as god, then these concepts aren't broad enough (or whatever) to be base classes, but to reiterate: that's an opinion. Using that logic, I could argue the barbarian (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian,_Sublime_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29), ranger, and paladin (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Paladin,_Sublime_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29) should be prestige classes (which, coincidentally, has been done on dungeons.wikia using the Tome of Battle chassis -- see links), since they're just minor deviations from the warrior subtype, but that does not mean they cannot exist as functional base classes (see Fax Celesitis' interpretations (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tome_of_Battle_Core_Class_Update)) .

Furthermore, flavor is mutable. How the class says it does what it does is not so important as what it actually does mechanically. I could call it a knight and have it be some sort of knight's challenge. The mechanics might not make as much sense paired with that fluff, but it's doing the exact same thing. So again, no point.


I'm also not a fan of the inclusion of the tier indicators with the classes on the PDF. Part of that is just not being a fan of the proliferation of the tier system in general, and the other part is that it's just... tacky. As long as a class isn't deliriously broken one way or another, then really, it doesn't matter. It's very easy to play a wizard and not insta-kill every encounter. It doesn't even require nerfing yourself, it just requires you come into a game with the mindset that "hey, I'm not here to ruin the game. I'm here to have fun."

Not going to disagree here, just because I want to make it clear I'm not trying to be hostile; I just disagree with about everything you said. The tier system has it's fair share of flaws and proliferating it implies some kind of acceptance of it (something I'm more than guilty of) when it is clearly something very much up for debate, to a certain degree. It also presumes the reader's awareness of such a system, which isn't a good thing either. I will, however, disagree that some form of balance notation isn't necessary. Within certain bounds, none is needed. But as I mentioned before, you can't simply assume your readers will have certain knowledge or skills (i.e. will be able to judge balance on their own). There's plenty of people who still subscribe to the awesomeness of the monk, magic missile as one of the best first level wizard spells, the overpoweredness of the Tome of Battle, and similar notions.

tl;dr -- I disagree with just about everything that was said. The arguments presented have little basis in fact.

warlock2000
2010-07-04, 09:29 PM
@Jota - You posted while I was typing so I have included commenting on your post.

@Lime - All help is welcome, look us up when you return.

@For Valor - Can't look up your pdf sorry. Feel free to email me at warlock_2000@hotmail.com.

@Thomar_of_Uointer - I am making a pdf to email out. It will be accessible once downloaded even without internet.

@Rin hunter - looking at your system there are some neat ideas there. I don't know exactly how we are going to choose and add content yet. But I am open for many suggestions. And yes I will just be using open office to create the final pdf with a bit of flair with paint shop pro thrown in.

@hyooz - Tier system?

Suggestion for flow of presentation

Core
-Races
-Classes
-Prestige Classes

I homebrew...
-get one of the entries creators to discuss the thought process they went through for their creation.

Junk Drawer
- Some other homebrew tidbit that can be added to a game.


Any more suggestions on format? Or have I lost people through organization.

Jota
2010-07-04, 09:58 PM
Tier system?


http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

Rin_Hunter
2010-07-05, 08:36 AM
Well, I was going to suggest my XP Adjustment and Hp systems and my Champion last night but apparently the PSP has a character limit on text entry and I didn't want to double post.

I'll be back at my computer on the 15th. May not be too useful until then.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-07-05, 11:56 AM
I can't vouch for the power level of them, but part of Djinn's distaste might be that two of those classes totally miss the point of base classes. One has the ability to control gravity and the other manufactures venom in its own body. Those are very much prestige class concepts.

The Gravity Warrior is full of dead levels and abilities that all do similar things. When you hit level 20, there aren't a lot of options available to you, nor does the class offer you a good amount of options. Additionally, the concept is very specific, and the early levels are full of fairly boring, passive abilities. It also arbitrarily decides to insert gravity flavor into what could have been a much more "base" class-ish character, that a DM could add gravity flavor to at his discretion. Strange flavor should be added, not default. IMHO.

The Barbarian is much, much better, although putting anti-magic abilities is basically just saying "no" to casters, and no class should have an unbeatable hard-counter to the abilities of another class. In theory, of course. That, and DR 12/-- and Fast Healing 20 at 20th level make magic the only really effective way to fight him. Rather than give the Barbarian some cool and balanced abilities, they made him a "no" machine: constant stunning effects, colossal Fort save used for Ref and Will, DR, Fast Healing, Anti-magic, Mage's Disjunction...you just can't DO anything to him. His incredibly massive damage also exacerbates the problem, as a full attack routine with +10d6 damage on each attack is a little crazy, AND steps on the Rogue's toes.

The last is another one-trick pony, and is specific enough that it should have been a Prestige Class. Yes, flavor is mutable, but a base class shouldn't require a COMPLETE REFLAVORING unless I'm trying for a very specific concept. I shouldn't have to reflavor one to play anything but a guy whose body is full of poison.

Yeah, this is all my opinion. But so was the fact that I hoped that was just a test. The opinion of others may vary.

Either way, that's the sort of critique I'd be offering. I have strong opinions on homebrew...just how I am.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-05, 01:21 PM
Djinn, to be fair to the Barbarian - it's not a "no" button at the level of play that it's designed for. The guys who wrote it were assuming that Wizards get infinite Wishes by about level 15, possibly earlier, and created a system based around that level of optimization.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-07-05, 02:17 PM
Djinn, to be fair to the Barbarian - it's not a "no" button at the level of play that it's designed for. The guys who wrote it were assuming that Wizards get infinite Wishes by about level 15, possibly earlier, and created a system based around that level of optimization.

Meh. True. But at that point the game is fractured enough that I see no reason to 'brew for it. :smallbiggrin:

Surgo
2010-07-05, 02:20 PM
I've attempted this on two separate occasions in the past, once on this board and once on another. It did not work, for various reasons but can mostly be summed up with "people are lazy" and "non-lazy people don't necessarily make the best material".

I tried a third time, with much better results: that try was making the Dungeons & Dragons wiki (which can be found in my signature). It also has a neat application now to build magazines from material inside. And has an export-to-PDF option.


...that IS just a test, right? Please tell me it's just a test...those classes are...um...yeah.
I'm glad to see another person not understanding the class, which is meant to compete with Sorcerers, not core Fighters. Unfortunately the person who copied it did not copy our article on balance points (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:Balance_Points), which is meant to put a stop to posts like this.


scribd
If you screenshot (I think that's what you're doing) from the wiki, there's an application there now to export a series of articles into a PDF-zine. No need to take the intermediate steps.

Also, I know this is just a sample, but that material is licensed under the CC-BY-SA license, so you need to mark it as such.


edit: You know, I just had an idea of a program that would make a nice PDF out of a series of wiki articles. You'd write it, and include the articles and their formatting therein, and it would also be able to resolve links so the PDF itself was cross-linked.

Hyooz
2010-07-05, 06:07 PM
I'm glad to see another person not understanding the class, which is meant to compete with Sorcerers, not core Fighters. Unfortunately the person who copied it did not copy our article on balance points (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:Balance_Points), which is meant to put a stop to posts like this.


Why on earth is Beguiler tossed in with the rest of the unbalanced stuff?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-07-05, 06:26 PM
I'm glad to see another person not understanding the class, which is meant to compete with Sorcerers, not core Fighters. Unfortunately the person who copied it did not copy our article on balance points (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:Balance_Points), which is meant to put a stop to posts like this.

I did admit that that was the best one there. I simply disagree with the direction you took it in and the power level you balanced it against. It's well implemented, but I personally don't think it's well designed. Nothing against you or your work: my own opinion just differs greatly.

Surgo
2010-07-05, 06:31 PM
That's fair. Different strokes, and all.

Rithaniel
2010-07-06, 06:06 PM
*blush* eh heh

Some stuff off topic:

Djinn in Tonic

The Gravity Warrior is full of dead levels and abilities that all do similar things. When you hit level 20, there aren't a lot of options available to you, nor does the class offer you a good amount of options. Additionally, the concept is very specific, and the early levels are full of fairly boring, passive abilities. It also arbitrarily decides to insert gravity flavor into what could have been a much more "base" class-ish character, that a DM could add gravity flavor to at his discretion. Strange flavor should be added, not default. IMHO.

Full of dead levels? It has 4. All of them after 10th level. Or did you not notice the Fast Movement? Were you perhaps discrediting it? Fast Movement is minor, course. As for options, the guy is good at bull rushing, grappling, tripping, etc, he can create a huge area of difficult terrian, smash the ground and take a large number of foes out of combat temporarily (Later levels doing this pretty often), and auto-trip/exhaust a single foe at a very considerable distance, just to sprint after him (fast movement, the foe can't run or charge), and get things into melee combat. Not to mention that he can actually hold his own in combat.

Also, your gripe about fluff is odd. A guy who can control some abritrarily defined medium called 'magic' to any one of a million and a half different end results is extremely 'strange flavor', to say the least, yet the wizard is considered one of the most generic base classes. This is the same way, only the medium is 'gravity' instead of 'magic'. :smallbiggrin:


The Barbarian is much, much better, although putting anti-magic abilities is basically just saying "no" to casters, and no class should have an unbeatable hard-counter to the abilities of another class. In theory, of course. That, and DR 12/-- and Fast Healing 20 at 20th level make magic the only really effective way to fight him. Rather than give the Barbarian some cool and balanced abilities, they made him a "no" machine: constant stunning effects, colossal Fort save used for Ref and Will, DR, Fast Healing, Anti-magic, Mage's Disjunction...you just can't DO anything to him. His incredibly massive damage also exacerbates the problem, as a full attack routine with +10d6 damage on each attack is a little crazy, AND steps on the Rogue's toes.

To be perfectly fair, that class was intended with the concept in mind that, at level 16, an appropriate challenge would be 8 Huge Shadow Fire Elementals, with 16 Fire Element Dire Wolves on the side, and the entire battle taking place inside a lake of lava (this is one barbarian against that). The guy would likely need to be able to survive that, don't you think? Do you think he'd be able to withstand 20d6 damage every round from being submerged in lava without, at least, fast healing 15? Then, while swimming in lava, do you think he'd be able to survive indefinately with 24 foes (who don't take damage from the lava), each one shooting it's own array of problems at the guy, without his own ability to kill them? The class has one goal and one goal only: CHARGE. And it was built to actually be able to survive after charging.

Granted, it likely wouldn't be considered kosher by most. It's a bluntly straight-forward class.


The last is another one-trick pony, and is specific enough that it should have been a Prestige Class. Yes, flavor is mutable, but a base class shouldn't require a COMPLETE REFLAVORING unless I'm trying for a very specific concept. I shouldn't have to reflavor one to play anything but a guy whose body is full of poison.

Fluff issues again?

On topic:

This idea is awesome. If there is any help that is required, drop a line.

For Valor
2010-07-10, 12:32 AM
On the subject of the Tome Barbarian's Fast Healing: Read the Fast Healing description, and you'll see that it only applies outside of battle. This is because the Bbn gets punched in the face in every fight. During the battle, healing is up to whoever heals (IF anyone heals during the battle) but after the fight... well, the Fast Healing basically saves the party money by not making the Cleric burn his Wands of Lesser Vigor or his spells or anything like that.

On the subject of flavor issues: Look at Tome of Battle, my friend... going by your argument, Desert Wind shouldn't be a discipline. After all, it's too strange. You're weilding fire with your sword for God's sake!

... not to mentioned (IMO, and off-topic too) that most people who specialize in Desert Wind will look like a cross between Shishio and Carnage... but don't rant about that. I just wanted to add in some references to completely separate comic series.

---Rith got most of what you said about the classes covered, except the Fast Healing bit. You should probably just refer to his posts...---

On the subject of PDFs: So what's the general opinion about the PDF-creation-ness? I'm seeing dissent about Scribd and all, and a lot of alternate ideas floating around. What say we put things into Microsoft Word Documents (2003 plz? I'd actually prefer documents in Word format) and then give one guy the job of converting the nonsense to a pdf any way he/she wants it.

MOAR IMPORTANTLY

We need to get to work on what we're going to include. What's first? I think that we should grab 2-3 races, 2-3 classes, and 1 variant rule for each installment, starting with whatever stuff people have here. Themes would be nice, but if this thing is going to happen every month (or twice a month, as I would prefer), we should get used to a "No Themes" approach.

EDIT:
@Surgo: What's that thing about copyright-ness? I don't follow the string of letters... could you explain please? Or give me a link?

warlock2000
2010-07-10, 09:03 PM
Suggestion for flow of presentation

Core
-Races
-Classes
-Prestige Classes

I homebrew...
-get one of the entries creators to discuss the thought process they went through for their creation.

Junk Drawer
- Some other homebrew tidbit that can be added to a game.


Any more suggestions on format? Or have I lost people through organization.

How is this for format?

For Valor
2010-07-11, 01:51 PM
oh, yeah. I DO like that. Especially that thing about people thinking their way through the homebrew... how did I miss that post?

For races, I'm thinking that LA +0 would be best, and we could run 3 of them (including all the flavor text). Then we could run the 3 classes we make with a similar amount of flavor text to "SMASH" (that thar pdf on Scribd). After that, we get someone smart like DragoonWraith, Surgo, Rith, or someone else, and we make ask them to explain their thought process. I'm in favor of DragoonWraith explaining his Swordmage. It's an excellent class.

then 1 variant rule of some kind? I saw a different way of doing spell points, or maybe lower-level access to epic feats (a lot of which suck). We could also run small section from Book of Gears, since that's very well-organized.

warlock2000
2010-07-18, 04:27 PM
Sorry for not posting in a while guys there was a death in the family on my wife's side. I will be on tonight though. I hope there is still enough steam for this idea to pull ahead again.

I_Got_This_Name
2010-07-19, 11:06 AM
EDIT:
@Surgo: What's that thing about copyright-ness? I don't follow the string of letters... could you explain please? Or give me a link?

CC-BY-SA
CC means Creative Commons. The other letters define the terms of the specific CC license it's released under. Creative Commons is a freer license than OGL, if I understand right.

BY means attribution. Any re-release or derivative work of CC-BY-SA content has to be attributed to the original author. The letters are there for historical reasons; all CC licenses that don't require attribution are deprecated (you could still release your stuff under an old license if you want)

SA means Share-Alike. All derivative works of a CC-SA-licensed work must be released under the same license as the original (if released at all).

Here's the wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_licenses) if you want to look up more.

Rin_Hunter
2010-08-02, 01:40 PM
So, has this died or is there a new thread that I've over-looked?

I was looking forward to this and all...

Aran Banks
2010-08-02, 10:26 PM
hmmm... would you like to do it with me, Rin?

We could do "Incantations 2.0" and run the Restorer (Dungeons Wikia), Incanter (I bet you've never heard of that one before... since you wrote it and all :smallamused:), and a warlock fix (like shadowmind's).

Then we add in a bunch of extra Incantations instead of the variant rule section, and then get someone to describe why they fixed the warlock the way they did--or you could explain your thought process behind the Incanter. I'm not sure how much work you want to do.

I'm not sure what races would fit with "incantations". Maybe some with at-will spells or something...

Rin_Hunter
2010-08-03, 01:34 PM
hmmm... would you like to do it with me, Rin?

We could do "Incantations 2.0" and run the Restorer (Dungeons Wikia), Incanter (I bet you've never heard of that one before... since you wrote it and all :smallamused:), and a warlock fix (like shadowmind's).

Then we add in a bunch of extra Incantations instead of the variant rule section, and then get someone to describe why they fixed the warlock the way they did--or you could explain your thought process behind the Incanter. I'm not sure how much work you want to do.

I'm not sure what races would fit with "incantations". Maybe some with at-will spells or something...

1. I could work with you on this as I have about a month and a half of free time before my university course starts.

2. I would rather leave the Incanter out of this until I have actually finished writing a good amount of Incantations. I think I have 5 online now and would like at least another 15. I have plans for 8 more in a .txt document.

3. The Ri are meant to go with Incantations in my setting, while my Hunter class is meant to go with the Sanai.

Aran Banks
2010-08-03, 04:40 PM
'kay. I'll dig up another Incantation class.

Would you be able to look for a second race, then? We'll run your Ri (I assume it's finished. It looks finished) and there should be a second race somewhere in the Playground. If worst comes to worst, I'll write something up.

Rin_Hunter
2010-08-03, 05:55 PM
'kay. I'll dig up another Incantation class.

Would you be able to look for a second race, then? We'll run your Ri (I assume it's finished. It looks finished) and there should be a second race somewhere in the Playground. If worst comes to worst, I'll write something up.

Alrighty. And it is finished.

What kind of race are you wanting me to look for exactly?

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-08-03, 06:10 PM
I may be a little late to the bandwagon, but I could offer up some services as an assistant editor if things get off the ground. I love the concept, but as this thread has already shown, the execution will be difficult.

Rin_Hunter
2010-08-03, 06:14 PM
I may be a little late to the bandwagon, but I could offer up some services as an assistant editor if things get off the ground. I love the concept, but as this thread has already shown, the execution will be difficult.

I'd say that the more people there are working on this the less likely it is to die.

oblivion6
2010-08-03, 06:40 PM
i know im late (i just registered today) but i can probably compile some of my 4e homebrew stuff for use in this pdf/newsletter

Rin_Hunter
2010-08-03, 06:41 PM
i know im late (i just registered today) but i can probably compile some of my 4e homebrew stuff for use in this pdf/newsletter

I won't be able to evaluate that because I only play 3.5e but I'm sure that'll be ok when we figure out everything that's going in.

Aran Banks
2010-08-04, 02:07 AM
gross, 4e.

It depends how much stuff you've got, oblivion6, and how much work you're willing to do. Seeing as you're probably the only guy doing 4e here, you'd have to be the one coming up with themes, getting the iHomebrew worked out, and finding the variant rules.

Honestly, if you tell me to search something up, I'll totally do that for you. But you'd be leading the charge and doing most of the work... unless we get someone to convert your 4e to 3.X. Which is a possibility.

Rin_Hunter
2010-08-04, 02:24 AM
gross, 4e.

My first thought exactly, but I decided not to share it :smallbiggrin:

Aran Banks
2010-08-04, 02:36 AM
so, Rin, you said our finished those invocations for the Incanter?

Do you want to put it in the newsletter?

Rin_Hunter
2010-08-04, 02:41 AM
so, Rin, you said our finished those invocations for the Incanter?

Do you want to put it in the newsletter?

I said that the Ri was finished, not the Incantations. I wouldn't mind the Ri going in, as long as it's tagged for a high power setting.

Aran Banks
2010-08-04, 03:32 AM
oh, gotcha!! Well, we can certainly tag it that way.

Concerning the sorts of races to look for, I was thinking something magic-oriented (wih SLAs, Detect Magic, and maybe a charisma bonus).

Just something charisma-oriented, really.

Rin_Hunter
2010-08-04, 03:33 AM
oh, gotcha!! Well, we can certainly tag it that way.

Concerning the sorts of races to look for, I was thinking something magic-oriented (wih SLAs, Detect Magic, and maybe a charisma bonus).

Just something charisma-oriented, really.

You essentially just described the Ri :smalltongue:

Aran Banks
2010-08-04, 03:35 AM
I basically ripped my idea off from the Ri. Only thing is, we need a second race.

Do you know of any other homebrew races similar to the Ri in theme?