Theurge vs Ultimate Magus 3.5

[EENick]

Hey all I've a got a thread going on the Cerebremancer,a Psi/Wizard prestige class very simimlar cleric/wizard MysticTheurge and I got a lot of great feedback both pointing out the classes obvious flaws but also some great advice to make the most of it. Some of that adviace lead me to the complete mage handbook where I found a very different sort of hybrid caster class the Ultimate Magus an sorcerer/wizard combo with a more robust and interestering approach then simply piling on more spellcasting levels.

I know the Theurge is underpowered and has issues I was just wondering if anyone has tried the Ultimate Magus and if so how they compaired? It seems like the magus was meant to try and plug a few of the hybrid caster flaws seen with the Theurge so I'm very currious as to how they actually work out.

[2xMachina]

IIRC, UM has worse spell lvls, but the metamagic option is better.

[DragoonWraith]

Basically, the Ultimate Magus is how theurge PrCs should be done; personally, I only have two problems with it. One, you have to enter favoring your prepared spellcasting, because it requires 2nd level prepared spellcasting but only 1st level spontaneous spellcasting - it should allow either mix to enter. Two, the way it advances the lowest caster level means it's trying to even out your two classes when you really want to focus on one - that one's easily fixed with Practiced Spellcaster in the spontaneous class, though.

By the way, Wizard/Beguiler is better than Wizard/Sorcerer because it is still SAD. Plus the Wizard can easily ban Illusion and Enchantment and use his Beguiler casting to get them back (Sorcerer could do that too, of course, but gets fewer spells known).

If you're looking for homebrew, my Cerebremancer (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Cerebremancer) took some cues from the Ultimate Magus, and got a good response. Also, my Spell Weaver (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Spell_Weaver) was specifically designed as a Cha-based Wizard replacement so you could create a SAD Ultimate Magus with the Sorcerer.

[Gnaeus]

Well, the normal entry is Wizard 4, Spontaneous 1 with Practiced spellcaster on the spontaneous side. That way, Wizard counts as your lower level class, and gets 9/10 progression. So you wind up casting like a wizard 18 (Caster level 22), sorcerer 9 (CL 17). That is pretty darn good for a dual progression caster. It gets better when you remember that your wizard can be a specialist or focused specialist, and use his Spontaneous class to cover the holes from banned schools pretty well.

All in all, it works better than most.

[Keld Denar]

Magus differs from Theurge in the fact that it has...CLASS FEATURES! I mean, spellcasting is well and good and whatnot, but what makes the Magus shine is the ability to actually use those extra spell slots to make up for the weakness. Ultimate Magus is great at metamagic. You burn slots off one list to empower spells on the other list. At times, you can even cast spells that are higher level than a straight class wizard, simply because you can Empower a spell for free or something.

UM also has a bit of shananiganery behind it. If you take Practiced Spellcaster for your "off" class, you can actually improve your primary casting class with nearly every level of UM. If you are Illumian with the Krau sigil AND take Practiced Spellcaster, you can do it for every level. This sacrifices 1 level of your primary class to pick up 8 levels of a spontaneous class which gives you 4th level spells and allows you to add up to +4 Metamagics to your 5th level and under wizard spells. Thats like, 3-4 free Quickens and a couple other MM feats. That goes a long way toward making up 1 lost CL.

If you don't use UM shananiganery, it's less exciting. You just can't make up for that many lost spellcaster levels because spell power increases quadratically.

Also, Sorcerer is a less exciting option for UM. Beguiler is the real meat and potatoes. You get lots of skills, Trapfinding, AND you automatically know all your spells. Oh, and Int synergy. LOTS of Int synergy.

[Optimystik]

Seconding Keld and DW - Beguiler/Wizard is the way to go with UM, rather than Wizard/Sorcerer or some other combination.

However, don't discount the MT yet - the Pathfinder version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/mystic-theurge) actually does have class features, and fits into regular D&D just fine.

UM is also arcane/arcane only, so you're not gaining quite as much versatility that way.

[DragoonWraith]

The difference between Arcane and Divine magic isn't enough to really worry about that distinction, I think.

Anyway, the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge still requires 3/3 entry, which is awful, and the alternate source spell thing applies a +1 spell level for no reason whatsoever, greatly diminishing the thing's usefulness. Then Spell Synthesis is quite arguably overpowered.

So, at levels 4 through 15, you're underpowered because you've lost a ton of spellcasting levels from both sides and the Combined Spells feature is effectively neutered by the +1 spell level thing. Then at 16 you're breaking the action economy in half, possibly being overpowered if not compared to some serious cheese on the part of a single-classed Wizard or Cleric. Finally by 20 you're pretty weak again, because your spells don't continue to grow.

This is a really hideous design, honestly.

[Hendel]

One of my issues I found with the Ultimate Magus was that I enjoyed being able to burn a slot to use metamagic on a spell, but I could not apply any other metamagic feats to that same spell. That makes no sense to me and I found it too limiting to be useful.

If I could burn a slot, then apply other metamagic to that spell through feats and/or rods, it would be a lot more useful.

[Optimystik]

Anyway, the Pathfinder Mystic Theurge still requires 3/3 entry, which is awful, and the alternate source spell thing applies a +1 spell level for no reason whatsoever, greatly diminishing the thing's usefulness. Then Spell Synthesis is quite arguably overpowered.

So, at levels 4 through 15, you're underpowered because you've lost a ton of spellcasting levels from both sides and the Combined Spells feature is effectively neutered by the +1 spell level thing. Then at 16 you're breaking the action economy in half, possibly being overpowered if not compared to some serious cheese on the part of a single-classed Wizard or Cleric. Finally by 20 you're pretty weak again, because your spells don't continue to grow.

This is a really hideous design, honestly.

There's lots of early entry techniques that can fix the requirements. Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster, Improved Sigil: Krau etc. So it's really not that bad.

Spell Synthesis is indeed powerful, but at 1/day is hardly going to destroy the game, I'd say.

[2xMachina]

Precocious + Versatile/Heighten = 1/1 entry?

[Optimystik]

Precocious + Versatile/Heighten = 1/1 entry?

Well, the trouble isn't so much entering early, as what you do after you finish. You can't take MT 11 until epic, which means you need more levels (preferably, another theurge) to keep your caster levels on both sides up until then.

You can of course just forget one side and focus on the other, becoming say a Wizard 19/Cleric 11, but even if that route has more options than a wizard 20 I just don't see the point in theurging "half-assed," so to speak.

[Bakkan]

Precocious + Versatile/Heighten = 1/1 entry?

Possible, though you still have to have 6 ranks in Know(arcana) and Know(religion), so you might need some shenanigans there.

[Optimystik]

Possible, though you still have to have 6 ranks in Know(arcana) and Know(religion), so you might need some shenanigans there.

Inspire Greatness (bardic ability) is the only way I can think of to cheat skill reqs.

[DragoonWraith]

There's lots of early entry techniques that can fix the requirements. Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster, Improved Sigil: Krau etc. So it's really not that bad.
None of which are from Paizo, none of which are intended by Paizo's designers, and therefore none of which can be counted as part of Paizo's design. Those tricks shouldn't need to be necessary. I was judging Paizo's quality as designers on that one, more than I was judging how useful the class was.


Spell Synthesis is indeed powerful, but at 1/day is hardly going to destroy the game, I'd say.
Is it 1/day? OK, nevermind then. That went from overpowered to nearly useless fast.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I played a wizard/warmage ultimate magus, actually, and it was a blast. I used the Practiced Spellcaster trick with the warmage side, and banned evocation on the wizard side. It took a bit to get going, but by the time I was finished I was tossing around some sick damage with orb spells. It's a little more MAD than a wizard/beguiler, but warmage edge goes nicely with INT focus, and you don't need too high a CHA if you're going to focus on the orb spells.

[Optimystik]

None of which are from Paizo, none of which are intended by Paizo's designers, and therefore none of which can be counted as part of Paizo's design.

They don't have to - Pathfinder is backwards compatible, except in cases where it overrides 3.5 rules. (e.g. the combat maneuver system.)


Those tricks shouldn't need to be necessary. I was judging Paizo's quality as designers on that one, more than I was judging how useful the class was.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing - but given that Paizo didn't intend to invalidate existing 3.5 material from the start, one could argue that they simply left their MT open to the early entry techniques that the standard one had. They could have easily raised the skill reqs or something to keep it out of reach of such if they wanted.

Nor am I glorifying Pathfinder - just pointing out that there's no reason to use the standard MT when you don't give anything up to use PF's, and gain some actual class features to boot (not to mention a slightly beefier hit die and even cheaper skill reqs.)

[Gnaeus]

None of which are from Paizo, none of which are intended by Paizo's designers, and therefore none of which can be counted as part of Paizo's design. Those tricks shouldn't need to be necessary. I was judging Paizo's quality as designers on that one, more than I was judging how useful the class was.

Agreed, and you can't count on using them that way anyway. Personally, I would houserule the class long before I would let players sneak in with tricks.

[Optimystik]

Agreed, and you can't count on using them that way anyway. Personally, I would houserule the class long before I would let players sneak in with tricks.

Naturally, houserules can solve everything. It's just nice to have a RAW way in as well.

I think "sneaking in" is a bit strong; there aren't many other reasons to take Precocious Apprentice, after all.

[Gnaeus]

I think "sneaking in" is a bit strong; there aren't many other reasons to take Precocious Apprentice, after all.

I see plenty of tricks involving PA. Alter Self abuse springs immediately to mind. I will admit that it isn't a strong feat under normal use, but there are lots of those.

I don't think sneaking in is strong at all. It is close to the mildest language I would use. I think early entry is very close to cheating. It is abusing a rule in a way which I feel pretty sure was not intended by the designers of the feat or the class. I consider it strictly TO. That is of course only my opinion.

[Optimystik]

I don't think sneaking in is strong at all. It is close to the mildest language I would use. I think early entry is very close to cheating. It is abusing a rule in a way which I feel pretty sure was not intended by the designers of the feat or the class. I consider it strictly TO. That is of course only my opinion.

And you are entitled - however, I think costing a feat (or two, in the case of Sublime Chord) to make a theurge work is an acceptable tradeoff for the power they can provide once early entry is accomplished.

[Eldariel]

The way to go with UM is obviously Wizard/Nar Demonbinder to get 19/Full casting with CL 23/24 (or 27 with certain readings). Of course, you need Spontaneous Divination-trickery to enter (as Nar doesn't do low-level spells) but as you still advance two separate classes and you'd want Spont Div anyways, that's a small price or no price at all.

The fact that you're Int/Cha is immaterial compared to the benefits you gain; just take all your save-allowing spells on the Wizard-side and you'll gain more than enough for your money from Demonbinder (though Binding-spells have saves and thus of course, you may wanna cast them from the Wizard-side). Besides, you'd want some Cha anyways for Charms and Bindings and what-not.

[Gametime]

Is it 1/day? OK, nevermind then. That went from overpowered to nearly useless fast.

Yeah, I love the idea of a dual-caster actually being able to, y'know, dual cast, but finding the right balance for it is tricky. Personally, I like the idea of Mystic Theurge allowing you to cast two standard actions spells together by spending 1 round casting them, maybe once per encounter, maybe more. You're still getting two spells in a turn when you should only get one, but one round casting times leave you open to disruption.

There would almost certainly need to be a note that metamagic can't improve this casting time, though.

[Gnaeus]

And you are entitled - however, I think costing a feat (or two, in the case of Sublime Chord) to make a theurge work is an acceptable tradeoff for the power they can provide once early entry is accomplished.

It depends on the game.

In a low op game with tier 4 and 5s, MT as written is BETTER balanced than wizard or cleric.

In a moderately optimized game, normal entry MT is too weak to play. But divine 1/arcane 2/MT 10 is close to gestalt level. Certainly much better than Cleric 13 or Wizard 13 for much of its progression.

In a high powered game, I agree it isn't nearly as problematic as other things a Cleric or Wizard could be doing with their time or feats.

[EENick]

Thanks very much for the opinions.

Hmmm the pathfinder MT seems a lot better then standard, though I'm not sure that really is saying all that much.

[Optimystik]

In a moderately optimized game, normal entry MT is too weak to play. But divine 1/arcane 2/MT 10 is close to gestalt level. Certainly much better than Cleric 13 or Wizard 13 for much of its progression.

That's hardly a fair comparison. How many wizards and clerics do you know that will stay in one class all the way to 13?

Early-entry MT is powerful, but there's a hefty opportunity cost associated with its use. If my Cleric goes MT 10, that means he's not going Contemplative, or Divine Oracle, or Radiant Servant of X, or Sacred Fist etc. Meanwhile my Wizard is skipping Malconvoker, Iot7FV, Master Specialist, MotAO, UM/US etc.

And that's not even counting the really powerful options that they are giving up, like Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper, or That Which Must Not Be Named. (Hint: rhymes with "Sainted Caller")

So compared to what is possible - extra divine or arcane spells (depending on your primary class) at the cost of being MAD? Not a big deal at all.