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Mark Hall
2010-06-29, 05:06 PM
As a GM, would you allow someone to claim concealment for "attacking out of the sun" (i.e. having the sun at your back, so people trying to target you have to look into the sun)?

Just something that came to me out of the "Eldritch Spear" discussion. Fly + Eldritch Spear + Using the Sun to blind people trying to look at you.

Susano-wo
2010-06-29, 07:17 PM
sound reasonable to me. Its basically trying to "hide" and snipe from in front of the sun? The character would, upon successful hide, be un-targetable by anyone between him and the sun, though when they move laterally they would be able to see him.

HunterOfJello
2010-06-29, 07:18 PM
As a DM, if my players are creative enough to use smart tactics that would work in real life, then I allow it. (As long as they don't use them too often.)

Ranos
2010-06-29, 07:22 PM
As a GM, would you allow someone to claim concealment for "attacking out of the sun" (i.e. having the sun at your back, so people trying to target you have to look into the sun)?

Just something that came to me out of the "Eldritch Spear" discussion. Fly + Eldritch Spear + Using the Sun to blind people trying to look at you.

It's not RAW, but I'd definitely allow it as a GM. Just make the standard hide check. Though I'm not sure if that would work with creatures with darkvision. They don't care about light, right ?

HunterOfJello
2010-06-29, 07:56 PM
It's not RAW, but I'd definitely allow it as a GM. Just make the standard hide check. Though I'm not sure if that would work with creatures with darkvision. They don't care about light, right ?

Darkvision is seeing with the absence of light. The creatures with the best darkvision usually have Light Blindness when broad daylight (like Drow). So, I wouldn't consider creatures with darkvision better off when looking into the sun.

BRC
2010-06-29, 08:01 PM
Darkvision is seeing with the absence of light. The creatures with the best darkvision usually have Light Blindness when broad daylight (like Drow). So, I wouldn't consider creatures with darkvision better off when looking into the sun.
Slightly off topic, but can you hide in shadows from creatures with Darkvision. I mean, Shadows are a primary way for rogues and the like toe sneak around (For good reason), but considering WoTC felt like they should give every other monster in the manual Darkvision, it seems that hiding in shadows is useless against pretty much everybody.

Viskocity
2010-06-29, 08:16 PM
Slightly off topic, but can you hide in shadows from creatures with Darkvision. I mean, Shadows are a primary way for rogues and the like toe sneak around (For good reason), but considering WoTC felt like they should give every other monster in the manual Darkvision, it seems that hiding in shadows is useless against pretty much everybody.

This is why they created the Darkstalker feat. IIRC, it is from Lords of Madness. It forces anyone looking for you to make spot checks like normal, even if they have nonstandard senses. I think you are still screwed against mindsight though...

Cealocanth
2010-06-29, 08:20 PM
As a GM, would you allow someone to claim concealment for "attacking out of the sun" (i.e. having the sun at your back, so people trying to target you have to look into the sun)?

Just something that came to me out of the "Eldritch Spear" discussion. Fly + Eldritch Spear + Using the Sun to blind people trying to look at you.

It's not in the Core rules, and it has to be the right time of day, but I would allow it.

HunterOfJello
2010-06-29, 08:22 PM
Well, Darkvision (from my understanding) only works in absolute darkness. So, if there are any light sources in a room, darkvision won't work at all. If the room was pitch black, then a rogue would still have to use a hide check to use something in the room to hide behind to avoid being spotted by a creature with darkvision.

Low-light vision might make it harder to avoid detection in a dark room with a single light.

drengnikrafe
2010-06-29, 08:28 PM
Well, Darkvision (from my understanding) only works in absolute darkness.

Not according to the rules.


Darkvision
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
Bolded for emphasis.

Il_Vec
2010-06-29, 08:56 PM
As a GM, would you allow someone to claim concealment for "attacking out of the sun" (i.e. having the sun at your back, so people trying to target you have to look into the sun)?

Why, if they can't even see the sun out in this distance?! [/BadJoke]

In all seriousness, it would only work in specific times and places, on a very clear sky. Like midday and just before sundown. Other times, the sun normally isn't as bright and might be behind clouds and all.

Snake-Aes
2010-06-29, 08:58 PM
There's no specifics about staring at the sun, so it's really up to your discretion. Personally I'd grant concealment, but not allow the hide check.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-29, 09:20 PM
Concealment is about low contrast. In very dim light everything is dim. In the direction of the sun everything is bright unless you've got some way of cutting out the glare. An attack from the direction of the sun would normally have concealment, but not against someone with Sundark goggles (Races of the Dragon).

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

Hague
2010-06-29, 09:50 PM
Isn't all vision with darkvision considered shadowy illumination and thus allowing hide checks?

Snake-Aes
2010-06-30, 05:58 AM
Concealment is about low contrast. In very dim light everything is dim. In the direction of the sun everything is bright unless you've got some way of cutting out the glare. An attack from the direction of the sun would normally have concealment, but not against someone with Sundark goggles (Races of the Dragon).

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

I thought about concealment because normally you can't stare at the sun without going blind, so your vision is impaired. Try looking at something exactly between you and the sun and see if you'll see it well.


The only nonblindness effect linked to bright light i recall off my had is the Flare cantrip.

Aroka
2010-06-30, 06:27 AM
As a GM, would you allow someone to claim concealment for "attacking out of the sun" (i.e. having the sun at your back, so people trying to target you have to look into the sun)?

Just something that came to me out of the "Eldritch Spear" discussion. Fly + Eldritch Spear + Using the Sun to blind people trying to look at you.

No concealment, but since creative tactics rock... Reflex save or blinded for 1 round, dazzled on a successful save. After the first round, if the character manages to keep the sun at their back, the dazzled condition applies for 1 round following any attack on the character. It's not terribly powerful, and is easy to counter by moving around the character.


Isn't all vision with darkvision considered shadowy illumination and thus allowing hide checks?

Nope.

From the SRD:

"Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise — invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision."

"Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover."

Hzurr
2010-06-30, 02:02 PM
I'd most likely do something like give enemies a penalty to defense for trying to hit you, and a penalty to attacks when trying to hit you. Simple, straightforward, easy to do.

Mark Hall
2010-06-30, 02:21 PM
I'd most likely do something like give enemies a penalty to defense for trying to hit you, and a penalty to attacks when trying to hit you. Simple, straightforward, easy to do.

Great. Now I just need to figure out how to fly, get someplace with a sun, and attack from a distance... then I'm SET!