PDA

View Full Version : Hook swords [New weapon]



SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 06:31 AM
I'm going to use something like this on a NPC of mine, and I would like to know what you think about it.

Hook Swords
This sword is a little longer than a shortsword and has a hooked tip. It can be used as a normal sword by itself, or the user can combine the hooks of two similar swords and use them as a single reach weapon. The hand-protector on the handle is bladed, so that it can deal damage when swung at an opponent. Combining the blades into a reach weapon takes a move action.
The swords, whether single-wielded or combined, CANNOT be used with two hands for a damage bonus.
When two swords are used separately, the swords are treated as light martial weapons, also granting the user a +2 bonus to disarm checks because of the hooks.
When the blades are combined, they are treated as a single, exotic, one-handed reach weapon, but are still affected by the weapon finesse feat. Upon combining the weapons, it is assumed, unless announced otherwise, that the user keeps his grip of the sword in the main hand and the off-hand sword is the one being swung around. In this situation, only the off-hand weapon's damage-regarding enhancements apply. However, only the main hand weapon's enhancements NOT regarding damage apply.
Damage: 1d6
Critical: 19-20, x2
Category: Martial Light Weapon (Exotic One-Handed Weapon)
Type: Slashing
Reach: When combined, 10 ft.
Weight: 3 lbs.
Standard Cost: 15 gp
https://www.mainemilitary.com/productcart/pc/catalog/C616S-m.jpg

Ashtagon
2010-06-30, 06:42 AM
In real life, are they actually capable of being hooked together as you describe? Since it doesn't actually look like it would be possible.

(Disclaimer: Nothing against cinematic, as long as everyone is aware that it's cinematic)

Bastion Press's Arms & Armour makes is broadly equivalent to a short sword, except slashing only, and can disarm.

ETA: Wikipedia does mention linking the two together, for a total length of 6 feet. However, even that isn't really into "reach weapon" length.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 06:47 AM
Hmm. Any ideas about what I should do with the combination thing? Because if it doesn't work as a reach, and it's the whole point about this weapon.

Bisected8
2010-06-30, 06:58 AM
Maybe make the basic swords martial weapons and the combined swords a seperate exotic weapon?

Ashtagon
2010-06-30, 07:00 AM
Hmm, I just noticed you listed it as a light weapon. At 3 feet in length for a single piece, it's bang in the middle of the one-handed size category for weapons.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 07:00 AM
What would be the difference between the versions? The whole point, even in real life, is combining for range. I don't think it makes the weapon much more deadly or anything, just increases its range.

paddyfool
2010-06-30, 07:02 AM
Suggestions:

- Making the switch to reach or back should be enabled, but take a move action (never mind technicalities over being the right length; it's a weapon that's clearly meant to be swung out at a distance).

- While used as a reach weapon, they should lose the light weapon property (so you can't dual-wield two chains of them very well) but instead become a one-handed finesse weapon.

- When not being used as a reach weapon, these should probably have a bonus to disarm checks, a la the Sai (annoyingl, they'd still not as good for it as a two-handed weapon so this doesn't make any real difference to the weapon's effectiveness, but it fits).

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 07:03 AM
Thanks paddy. Those were good ideas.

Brother Oni
2010-06-30, 07:07 AM
Looking at the SRD, Reach weapons allow you to attack a target up to 10ft away.

Making the assumption that a normally welded sword has a range of 3ft + user's reach (usually about 3ft for a person, so about that for a medium sized creature) for a total of 6ft. Connecting the swords would increase the range up to 9ft putting you just short of what's regarded as a reach weapon.

I see no problem with house ruling the weapon to have Reach when connected - the NPC could be using a slightly longer version to give him the extra foot range (6 inches per sword).

Ashtagon
2010-06-30, 07:10 AM
Here's my take on it:

Damage: 1d6
Critical: 19-20, x2
Category: Martial One-Handed Weapon
Type: Slashing.
Weight: 3 lb.
Standard Cost: 15 gp.
Special Manoeuvres: Disarm, Finesse.

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat with this weapon, applying your Dexterity modifier to your attack roll instead of your Strength modifier.

You can combine two hook swords into a single weapon connected by their hooks. In this form, the weapon loses the ability to disarm, but gains the reach (5 ft or 10 ft range) quality. It is still considered a one-handed weapon for all purposes. Hooking or unhooking a pair of hook swords that you are wielding requires a swift action or a move action. You cannot wield a weapon or shield in the off-hand when wielding the hook swords thus, due to needing to periodically grab the second sword to prevent it from dislodging, but for other purposes, the second hand is not used.

Attacking with a pair of hook swords in combined form normally requires EWP (hook sword). Without this feat, such attacks are made at a -4 attack penalty, and hooking or unhooking the swords requires a move action (i.e. it cannot be done as a swift action). Additionally, if you have EWP (hook sword) and are fighting with a hook sword in each hand, they are treated as light weapons for purposes of TWF attack roll penalties.

If an opponent attempts to disarm you while you are wielding two hooked swords in the hooked configuration, he can either attempt to disarm the weapon you are holding (standard modifiers apply), or he can attempt to unhook the weapons and disarm just the weapon attached by the hooks, in which case he receives a +5 bonus on his disarm attempt.

When wielding two magical hooked swords in combined (hooked) form, the bonuses do not stack; use the bonuses from the weapon that actually strikes the enemy. A "held" +3 flametongue hook sword and a "hooked" +4 frostbrand hook sword, when combined, would be treated as a +4 frostbrand hook sword.


----

"One-handed" vs. "Light" mainly means no Weapon Finesse feat, and a better damage bonus from high Strength.


ETA: I see the video, so its certainly possible in a kata. But that doesn't look like it'd stay hooked after actually striking an opponent. But since EWP basically means "cinematic weapon" anyway, I'm ok with having reach as a benefit from EWP for this weapon.

Edit: Added some of Icedaemon's suggestions

Upsquark
2010-06-30, 07:10 AM
Yes, the hook swords can be hooked together for use as a reach weapon.
Here, watch this, it'll show you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oviYQCJeQ_U&feature=related
Kid's kinda weird, but you get the idea.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 07:21 AM
You can combine them anyhow, but you'd get the penalty if you aren't proficient with it. This is supposed to come up when my players get onto a continent closely resembling Japan/China. I think it would be allowed weapon finesse even when combined, as it's sort of an acrobatic weapon.

paddyfool
2010-06-30, 07:24 AM
"One-handed" vs. "Light" mainly means no Weapon Finesse feat, and a better damage bonus from high Strength.

It also means "worse for two-weapon fighting". I don't see why using a pair of these for TWF should be made any harder than using a pair of short-swords, hence having them as a light weapon. And they seem light enough that they should be finessable.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 07:25 AM
I checked, they're just 1 lb heavier than shortswords.

Ashtagon
2010-06-30, 07:28 AM
I checked, they're just 1 lb heavier than shortswords.

The L/1h/2h distinction was originally intended to be a function of weapon length, not weight.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 07:29 AM
"A little longer than a shortsword".

paddyfool
2010-06-30, 07:29 AM
Yes, but they're the same weight as a number of other core light weapons, such as the handaxe, and clearly more designed for duel-wielding than power-attacking.

Ashtagon's point on the bonuses for enchanted hook swords is a good one, incidentally. (Although adding all the qualities, e.g. flametongue frostbrand for both weapons could be abused, since these are normally more expensive to stack... perhaps you simply pick which one's enhancement bonuses, qualities and material apply when you hook them together?)

Morph Bark
2010-06-30, 07:31 AM
Can it be used as a throwing weapon? If not, I don't see why there should be a range listed.

If you meant that for reach, put "Reach: (only when combined)" or something.

Ashtagon
2010-06-30, 07:36 AM
Yes, but they're the same weight as a number of other core light weapons, such as the handaxe, and clearly more designed for duel-wielding than power-attacking.

Perhaps add that if you have EWP, it is considered light for TWF purposes when wielding a pair of them? Otherwise, it leads to the longsword/hook sword combo, which shouldn't work anything like as well.


Ashtagon's point on the bonuses for enchanted hook swords is a good one, incidentally. (Although adding all the qualities, e.g. flametongue frostbrand for both weapons could be abused, since these are normally more expensive to stack... perhaps you simply pick which one's enhancement bonuses, qualities and material apply when you hook them together?)

Good point about special enchantments stacking. Considering that it is rather easy to disarm in that form though (it's still merely a 1h weapon), and that there's a risk of having both disarmed at once, I don't see that as too great a problem.

If you get to pick which ones are in force, how is that decided? Do you pick at the start of the day? start of the encounter? Each time you hook them? And how many do you get to pick?

Icedaemon
2010-06-30, 07:40 AM
While your ideas are good, I suggest the following modifications:


Damage: 1d6
Critical: 19-20, x2
Category: Martial One-Handed Weapon
Type: Slashing
Reach: 5 ft.
Weight: 3 lb.
Standard Cost: 15 gp.
Special Manoeuvres: Disarm, possibly also trip, (both) require(s) the Exotic weapon proficiency as well.

If you have EWP (hook sword), you can combine two hook swords into a single weapon connected by their hooks. In this form, the weapon loses the ability to disarm, but gains the reach (5 ft or 10 ft range) quality. It is still considered a one-handed weapon for most purposes. Hooking a pair of hook swords that you are wielding is considered a move action, unhooking the pair is considered a swift action. You cannot wield a weapon in the off-hand when wielding the hook swords thus due to needing to periodically grab the second sword to prevent it from dislodging, but for other purposes, the second hand is not used.

If you are disarmed while wielding this weapon in combined (hooked) form, the weapons are unhooked, and the sword you were not holding in-hand falls to the ground. The opposed disarm roll of the double hook-sword wielder gets a -10 penalty..

When wielding two magical hooked swords in combined (hooked) form, the bonuses do not stack; use the damage and critical hit modifiers of the sword that is not held only, but use the better to-hit bonus. A +3 flametongue hook sword and a +4 frostbrand hook sword, when combined, would be treated as a +4 flametongue hook sword.

I am still not sure about using the better attack bonus, since a powergamer could heap magical damage modifiers and keen edge onto one sword, while the other has a simple +x modifier, but, as long as you don't let tossers choose which sort of swords you find in shops, this should not be that big a problem.


ETA: I see the video, so its certainly possible in a kata. But that doesn't look like it'd stay hooked after actually striking an opponent. But since EWP basically means "cinematic weapon" anyway, I'm ok with having reach as a benefit from EWP for this weapon.

One can probably use it to make a single attack safely without worrying about the weapon falling off unless one made a complete blunder, but occasionally using the other hand to make sure that the weapon is safely hooked is likely needed.

paddyfool
2010-06-30, 07:42 AM
Perhaps add that if you have EWP, it is considered light for TWF purposes when wielding a pair of them? Otherwise, it leads to the longsword/hook sword combo, which shouldn't work anything like as well.

That would make sense. Add the rule from the rapier that you can't wield them two-handed for 1.5x your strength and you're golden.


Good point about special enchantments stacking. Considering that it is rather easy to disarm in that form though (it's still merely a 1h weapon), and that there's a risk of having both disarmed at once, I don't see that as too great a problem.

If you get to pick which ones are in force, how is that decided? Do you pick at the start of the day? start of the encounter? Each time you hook them? And how many do you get to pick?

Each time you hook them - it sort of makes sense that you'd actually be attacking people with whichever one is at the far end.

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 07:46 AM
I stated that if the enhancement affects damage, it only works on the sword that actually hits people. If it doesn't, it only works on the sword you are actually holding in your hand. It is kind of hard to read up there, so I'll explain with an EXAMPLE! dunh dunh duuuunh


Joe is holding two hook swords. The one in his main hand is called Hook Sword of Health. The one in his off-hand is called +1 Hook Sword.

Joe decides to combine the swords into a reach weapon. He keeps the Hook Sword of Health in his hand, while the +1 Hook Sword is connected to the hook in the tip and is being swung around, hitting people.

As the +1 Hook Sword is the one hitting enemies, it's +1 enhancements applies. As the Hook Sword of Health is the one being held, it's temporary health effect applies.

However, should Joe switch the place of the swords, neither one's enhancement would apply, as the Hook Sword of Health would be the one hitting opponents.

Get it?

paddyfool
2010-06-30, 07:53 AM
That should work. I would suggest that they can never be used in two hands for a 1.5x Str bonus, whether hooked together or wielded individually (the handguards wouldn't seem to allow it).

SilverLeaf167
2010-06-30, 07:58 AM
I guess it doesn't really matter how I write it, my players will never see this written anyway xD

I can just remember most stuff.

DracoDei
2010-06-30, 02:30 PM
I used hookswords of my own design in one of my games... I based them on longswords instead of shortswords (so you do get a TWF penalty). I think I made it a swift action (or "free, once per round"... it didn't matter since the guy had no other use for his swift action).

Edit:
Starts HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7879394&postcount=26)

Continued(and completed) HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7925958&postcount=27)

Admiral Squish
2010-06-30, 03:06 PM
Hooksword are out there, in secrets of sarlona. I don't have the book here, so I can't just give you the stats.