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Hamswordsman
2010-06-30, 01:45 PM
This guy is based on a rogue that loses its ability to really fight in combat but makes up for it in terms of deception and trickery. He is mostly just a skill monkey who specializes in hiding. He has a great ability to move through the battlefield and has the abilities to take out weak units that try to hide in the back.

Deceiver

Flavor: A a completely cloaked and hooded figure whose cloak almost seems to blend in the background. He lurks in the shadows and rarely shows up in public. Although largely introverted, he can be extremely charming and cordial to anyone on a moments notice though usually to gain something. Few inhabitants know they even exist and thus don't really have an opinion on them but those that have seen them respect them but also fear them at the same time. They fight only when necessary, and always leave combat to the martial classes but they are not useless in combat. They usually are able to observe an enemies weak points and convey useful information to his allies giving them an edge in battle. His combat prowess doesn't lie with his strength but with his calculations and poisons.

Alignment: Any Non-Lawful

Table: The Deceiver Hit Die: d6
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special| Cunning
1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|1st Study, Cunning (Inexperienced)|1
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Evasion, Mental Message|2
3rd|+2|+1|+3|+3|Use Poison,odorless|2
4th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Improved Invisibility|3
5th|+3|+1|+4|+4|Wind Walk, 2nd Study|3
6th|+4|+2|+5|+5|Self Non-detection, Paranoia, Cunning (Apprentice)|4
7th|+5|+2|+5|+5|Hide in Plain Sight|4
8th|+6/+1|+2|+6|+6|Hit and Hide|5
9th|+6/+1|+3|+6|+6|Improved Evasion|5
10th|+7/+2|+3|+7|+7|3rd Study|6
11th|+8/+3|+3|+7|+7|Cunning (Experienced)|7
12th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8|4th Study|7
13th|+9/+4|+4|+8|+8||8
14th|+10/+5|+4|+9|+9|5th Study|8
15th|+11/+6/+1|+5|+9|+9||9
16th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Cunning (Master), 6th Study|10
17th|+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|Master of Invisibility|10
18th|+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|7th Study|11
19th|+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|Phase| 11
20th|+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12| 8th Study|12[/table]
Class Skills (8 + Int modifier per level, ◊4 at 1st level)

Class Skills (8 + Int modifier per level, ◊4 at 1st level)
Class Features: Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Poison making)(Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (local) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha), and Use Rope (Dex).

Same as rogue except
Took out: Perform(Deceivers do not want to be in front of everyone and therefore get flustered if they are on center stage.)
Changed: Craft (Poison-Making) (Deceivers are skilled in making poisons but have lost interest in other crafts)
Put in: Heal (Deceivers are skilled in the use of poisons and know basic treatments for them)

All of the following are class features of the Deceiver.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Deceivers are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Deceivers are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.

Study(Ex):Deceivers are skilled at observing and interpreting situations. Through Careful observations, they can often discover the vulnerabilities of their foes and then relay that information to their comrades.

Standard Action, only applies to one attack, information can be relayed to one ally otherwise your next attack gets those benefits

See Weak Points
The Deceiver through careful observation, discovers weak points in a creature such as a hole in the armor or a thinner hide allowing for more precise strikes.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Precision Damage
1 | +1 | +1d6
3 | +1 | +2d6
5 | +2 | +2d6
7 | +2 | +3d6
9 | +3 | +3d6
11 | +3 | +4d6
13 | +4 | +4d6
15 | +4 | +5d6
17 | +5 | +5d6
19 | +5 | +6d6[/table]

Study Anatomy
The Deceiver Studies the creature and examines how the creature's muscles work and operate and learns their weak points. Someone actually needs to hit him in order for him to suffer the ability damage.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Physical damage damage
2|+1| -1 Str, Con or Dex
4|+2| -2 Str, Con, or Dex
6|+2| -3 Str, Con, or Dex
8|+3| -4 Str, Con or Dex
10|+3| -5 Str, Con or Dex
12|+4| -6 Str, Con, Dex
14|+4| -7 Str, Con, or Dex
16|+4| -8 Str, Con, or Dex
18|+5| -9 Str, Con, or Dex
20|+5| -10 Str, Con, or Dex
[/table]

Search for Vital Points
The Deceiver studies the creature and sees where the body is weak to various poisons.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Fort Save deduction
2 | +1 | -1 on fort save
4 | +2 | -2 on fort save
6 | +2 | -3 on fort save
8 | +3 | -4 on fort save
10 | +3 | -5 on fort save
12 | +4 | -6 on fort save
14 | +4 | -7 on fort save
16 | +5 | -8 on fort save
18 | +5 | -9 on fort save
20 | +5 | -10 on fort save[/table]

Study Movement
The Deceiver studies the dodging patterns of the target.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Reflex Save Deduction
2 | +1 | -1 on Reflex Save
4 | +2 | -2 on Reflex Save
6 | +3 | -3 on Reflex Save
8 | +4 | -4 on Reflex Save
10 | +5 | -5 on Reflex Save
12 | +6 | -6 on Reflex Save
14 | +7 | -7 on Reflex Save
16 | +8 | -8 on Reflex Save
18 | +9 | -9 on Reflex Save
20 | +10 | -10 on Reflex Save[/table]

Observe
You observe the target trying to see anything suspicious as well as focusing on what they may be casting.
The check bonus applies to the skills Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather information, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Search, Spellcraft checks only on the target.
If the target does something like turn invisible, mislead, mirror image, or some other illusion then you get to check where the real one went. I need a check and an opposing check cause I am absolutely horrible at balancing this.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Check Bonus
1 | +1 | +1, Reveal 1 vulnerability
3 | +1 | +2
5 | +2 | +3 Learn General patterns of Movement
7 | +2 | +4, Reveal 2 vulnerabilities
9 | +3 | +5
11 | +3 | +6 Know what the creature is going to do next 50% of the time
13 | +4 | +7, Reveal 3 vulnerabilities
15 | +4 | +8
17 | +5 | +9
19 | +5 | +10Know what the creature is going to do next[/table]

Study Nerves or Processing
Deceivers learn what are the points of paralysis of the individual and utilizes this information to his benefit.
If a Deceiver or anyone who has the information on weak points makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly paralyzing the target. This takes one standard action. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Deceiver class level + the Deceiver's Int modifier) against the paralyze effect, she is paralyzed. The victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the Deceiver. If the victimís saving throw succeeds the attack is normal.
Even if this is done by someone else, it still uses the same save.

Study Spellcasting
Deceivers learn about how the caster is casting spells and learns how to counteract them. The check for the Counter Dispel is 1d20 + Deceiver +10. Spell caster must be hit with the move in order for there to be any effect.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus
2 | +1 |
4 | +1 |
6 | +2 |
8 | +2 |
10 | +3 |
12 | +3 |
14 | +4 |
16 | +4 |
18 | +5 |
20 | +5 | [/table]

Improved Study (EX): May substitute instead of taking another study, Doubles the effects of the chosen study. The doubled effects are higher saves, higher insight, etc. Stacks but you must choose a new area of study to improve

Cunning: Through many years of training, Deceivers are able to disguise and alter themselves in order to deceive the people around them. With the help of some of their supernatural abilities that led them down the path of a Deceiver they are further able to amplify their deceptiveness. The cunning idea is very similar to a warlock's invocation. The spells themselves are exactly like the original spell except they are supernatural abilities and have no verbal, somatic, or material components. They also can only target himself unless otherwise noted

Cunning Inexperienced: Invisibility, Mirror Image, Disguise Self, Ghost Sounds, Precision
Cunning Apprentice: Mislead, Alter Self, Obscuring Mist, Spider Climb
Cunning Experienced: Swap Clones, Freedom of movement, Locate Creature, Misdirection
Cunning Master: Don't really know yet

Cunning Inexperienced:
Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm)

Mirror Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorimage.htm) (SP) Difference on Deceiver: only creates one

Self-Feather Fall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/featherfall.htm)(SU)= Feather Fall

Disguise Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disguiseself.htm)(SU)

Ventriloquism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/ghostsound.htm) (SU)= Ghost sounds
Key Differences: can only make sounds that you can feasibly make, Not a spell, no verbal somatic or material component

Precision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/truestrike.htm) (SP)= True Strike

Cunning Apprentice:
Mislead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mislead.htm) (SU and SP)
Key Difference from Mislead: You get invisibility not greater invisibility

Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterself.htm)(SU)=

Obscuring Mist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringmist.htm) (SP)

Spider Climb (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spiderclimb.htm)(SU)=

Cunning Experienced:
Switch with Clone (SP): As a standard action, a deceiver can switch positions with a clone. This is by switching between them magically and not by fast movement.
I'm sure there are going to be lots of questions and I will try and answer all of them:smallsmile:

Freedom of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm) (SU)

Locate Creature (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locatecreature.htm) (SU)


Misdirection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm) (SU)

Abilities:

Evasion (Ex):Same as Rogue

Improved Evasion (Ex): Same as Rogue

Improved Invisibility (Ex): If someone with true seeing, see invisibility or other ability that would allow them to see you while invisible, You roll a hide check (in plain sight unless if you are in fact hiding behind something) against their spot check.

Wind Walk (SU): When Deceiver is invisible, he is treated as in the ethereal plane. Seems way overpowered for a low level but I am changing everything to fit the normal rules more. He could still see clearly, or else study would make no sense.

Self Non-Detection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) (EX)= Non Detection
Key Differences: it is a EX. It is an ability that I just have, no need to cast or anything

Paranoia (Ex): The Deceiver has an uncanny ability to sense when he is being watched. When he is being watched directly by someone or something as well as if there is a sure chance that they know which is the real clone, the DM alerts the Deceiver. The DM does not have to declare what actually sees him or how his cover was given away.

Mental Message (SU): At will, you may whisper thoughts to anyone who is willing. When you try it, the target can analyze if it is friendly or not. If they resist it automatically fails. Range is 100 ft.

Poison Use (Ex): Deceivers are trained in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Hide in plain Sight (EX): Same as the ranger

Odorless (EX): A Deceiver makes sure to clean themselves regularly so their scent does not betray them. Any ability that uses scent to track the Deceiver does not work.

Hit and Hide (EX): After a deceiver does an attack, he may use a Cunning or the hide skill, and then may take a 5ft step.

Master of Invisibility(EX): You are treated as invisible unless you don't want to be.

Phase (SU): When Invisible, You may choose to phase through the next form of damage and thus ignoring all of its effects. This may only be done once per battle.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-30, 02:23 PM
Well obviously the idea of something radically different is not very well liked...

Entirely untrue. If you see my most recent post on your last thread, you'll get a better idea of why I thought the idea was poorly executed. It's not because it's radically different. I also offered a few suggestions for getting the project off on the right foot. :smallbiggrin:

On to the Deceiver.

Like your last class, this one is a largely one-trick pony. You can become invisible and do some shenanigans with that, but that's really all you've got going for you. You're fragile, poor at combat...and have Heal instead of Intimidate and Use Magic Device? Knowledge (Local), Intimidate, and Use Magic Device all fit nicely into the theme of a deceiver. Heal does not. I'd recommend changing that back.

You do have an interesting thing here though. I'd recommend dropping the invisibility angle just a tad (you're stepping on Beguiler turf with a Rogue/Caster hybrid, and the Beguiler is a very well designed class) and going with the deception angle you see to want. Don't replicate spells if you can help it: the Beguiler will do that better. Instead, try for some more unique decieving abilities that will really set the class apart.

Alternatively (and I realize this isn't what you wanted to hear, but...), the Beguiler (Players Handbook II) might be right up your alley. If it exists, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Still, this could go in its own direction if you want to take it there. You'd need to drop the "duplicating spell" shtick you've got going though. A few are fine, but it needs to have something else going for it if you want it to be distinct from the Beguiler.

jiriku
2010-06-30, 02:28 PM
You may find this helpful. Just hit "Quote" down in the bottom right of this post to see my formatting. You can copy and paste it into your original post.


{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+2|+0|Self-Invisibility, Study
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+0|Evasion
3rd|+1|+1|+3|+1|Clone
4th|+2|+1|+4|+1|Improved Invisibility
5th|+2|+1|+4|+1|Wind Walk, Trapfinding
6th|+3|+2|+5|+2|Self Non-detection, Paranoia
7th|+3|+2|+5|+2|Fool
8th|+4|+2|+6|+2|
9th|+4|+3|+6|+3|
10th|+5|+3|+7|+3|
11th|+5|+3|+7|+3|
12th|+6/+1|+4|+8|+4|
13th|+6/+1|+4|+8|+4|
14th|+7/+2|+4|+9|+4|
15th|+7/+2|+5|+9|+5|
16th|+8/+3|+5|+10|+5|
17th|+8/+3|+5|+10|+5|
18th|+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|
19th|+9/+4|+6|+11|+6|
20th|+10/+5|+6|+12|+6| [/table]



Feedback on your class so far: I'd agree with djinn's assessment of your class skills. Add back in the ones you dropped; they're relevant and appropriate for your concept. If you want Heal as a class skill, go ahead and throw that in too. One more class skill isn't going to break anything.

You cut the number of skill points per level as compared to the rogue. Any particular reason for that?

Also, consider using alternatives to the mana system. Designing a fair and balanced point-based system from scratch is difficult to do. If you'd like your powers to be point-based, I'd suggest you use the psionics power point system (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm)and reflavor it however you please. The psionic power point system is well-tested and robust - there's no reason not to take advantage of it. Alternately, if you dislike that system, consider granting x number of uses per day or per encounter with each power. Or just, you know, granting a spellcasting progression. You create a lot of extra work and difficulty for yourself if you try to create a new power system from scratch.

Hamswordsman
2010-06-30, 02:45 PM
Entirely untrue. If you see my most recent post on your last thread, you'll get a better idea of why I thought the idea was poorly executed. It's not because it's radically different. I also offered a few suggestions for getting the project off on the right foot. :smallbiggrin:

On to the Deceiver.

Like your last class, this one is a largely one-trick pony. You can become invisible and do some shenanigans with that, but that's really all you've got going for you. You're fragile, poor at combat...and have Heal instead of Intimidate and Use Magic Device? Knowledge (Local), Intimidate, and Use Magic Device all fit nicely into the theme of a deceiver. Heal does not. I'd recommend changing that back.

You do have an interesting thing here though. I'd recommend dropping the invisibility angle just a tad (you're stepping on Beguiler turf with a Rogue/Caster hybrid, and the Beguiler is a very well designed class) and going with the deception angle you see to want. Don't replicate spells if you can help it: the Beguiler will do that better. Instead, try for some more unique decieving abilities that will really set the class apart.

Alternatively (and I realize this isn't what you wanted to hear, but...), the Beguiler (Players Handbook II) might be right up your alley. If it exists, there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. Still, this could go in its own direction if you want to take it there. You'd need to drop the "duplicating spell" shtick you've got going though. A few are fine, but it needs to have something else going for it if you want it to be distinct from the Beguiler.
Did not even know that the beguiler class existed. I will try for different stuff as well. Anyways what I don't get is this one trick pony thing. I don't see how Barbarians are so multi talented. Looking over the beguiler class, it is an actual caster. This guy is supposed to be able to study target and figure out how an ally should correctly approach. Studying might reveal important information like vulnerabilities or other combat bonuses. I was also thinking about being able to set up traps in secret and lay down poisons and other such instruments. I was also thinking about making him a warrior that can phase through walls and other things.

Frog Dragon
2010-06-30, 03:17 PM
Aside from the formatting, there are a few things I'd change about this.
Up the HD. There are arcane casters with d6 hd.
Up the bab. This uses mainly physical attacks, so a poor bab would need a rather extraordinary reason. This has none.
For a point system, I recommend the ninja way, except per encounter so you can actually use them for a decent number of times. And as this is highly reliant on the abilities, lets give it even more. How about class level+Int mod (seems the most appropriate) per encounter.
It needs more abilities, or stuff that scales. Currently, its strictly a 7 level class, and a very weak one at that.
Abilities need much more definition, and durations.
I recommend just giving a sneak attack progression for it.
The abilities are kinda wonky, why not just say "as the spell, but blah blah blah."
Wind Walk needs to be Su. You don't walk through a wall without it being magic. Also, that ability just duplicates etherealness, so why not say that?
This needs more unique stuff. Something beyond "spell x as a class feature"
About the one trick pony thing. Two wrongs don't make a right. The barbarian infact, is a one trick pony. That is not a good thing. I actually have a homebrew that addresses exactly that. Barbarian being a one-trick pony. So yeah.

Siosilvar
2010-06-30, 03:30 PM
You could always play a Psion and take more subtle powers (including being a Telepath, Egoist, or Seer). Conceal Thoughts, Concealing Amorpha, and Cloud Mind are all low-level powers that seem to fit what you want.

Power Points will get you your mana pool, and you can take Forced Share Pain, Hostile Empathetic Transfer, and Recall Agony to get the feel of the class you were trying to make before, as well.


Really, from what I've seen, a new class needs to provide unique, interesting abilities to actually be worth taking the effort to make. You've certainly got interesting down, but not so much unique.

Merk
2010-06-30, 03:47 PM
How about this as a prototype for the "study" feature?

Study (Ex)

As a move action, you may analyze a foe and find its weakness. You gain a +1 insight bonus to any attack rolls made against that enemy and +1d6 precision damage on damage rolls made against that enemy for one round. The benefits of your Study ability improve with level, as shown on the table below:

{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Precision Damage
1 | +1 | +1d6
3 | +1 | +2d6
5 | +2 | +2d6
7 | +2 | +3d6
9 | +3 | +3d6
11 | +3 | +4d6
13 | +4 | +4d6
15 | +4 | +5d6
17 | +5 | +5d6
19 | +5 | +6d6[/table]

jiriku
2010-06-30, 03:58 PM
How about this as a prototype for the "study" feature?

Study (Ex)

As a move action, you may analyze a foe and find its weakness. You gain a +1 insight bonus to any attack rolls made against that enemy and +1d6 precision damage on damage rolls made against that enemy for one round. The benefits of your Study ability improve with level, as shown on the table below:

{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Precision Damage
1 | +1 | +1d6
3 | +1 | +2d6
5 | +2 | +2d6
7 | +2 | +3d6
9 | +3 | +3d6
11 | +3 | +4d6
13 | +4 | +4d6
15 | +4 | +5d6
17 | +5 | +5d6
19 | +5 | +6d6[/table]

Since you're not wanting to use weapons yourself, how about the same as above, but you grant the bonus to an ally who can hear you. ("His guard is low on his left side! Hit him there!")

Hamswordsman
2010-06-30, 04:31 PM
Since you're not wanting to use weapons yourself, how about the same as above, but you grant the bonus to an ally who can hear you. ("His guard is low on his left side! Hit him there!")

Exactly what I was thinking.
I was also thinking of much more interesting ideas like studying and learning where to hit it for crippling strikes or some other thing. Lose Con cause I knew where its weak point and know where some tendon connects in your leg so you lose movement. Just other things than just damage

The other thing I can add is
I can give him use poison and he can sneak up and he will get bonuses if he attacks out of invisibility
Another way I was thinking is that excels at disarming and tripping but then is good at going back into hiding afterward or doing those things while staying hidden.
Probably the craziest one is that I lay down traps and try and make them trigger them

As for the comments on the convoluted skills, I just copied and pasted the words straight out of D &D wiki so dont know what to tell you there.

I was basing mana off of psionics. These just work every encounter as opposed to every day.All of the other stuff like concentration and the like follows the psionics. Then again I'm not completely familiar with them

jiriku
2010-06-30, 05:02 PM
Word to the wise: avoid D&D wiki. Getting your ideas from there is a lot like getting your food from the dumpster behind McDonalds. Only the quality is probably more consistent behind McDonalds.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-06-30, 05:04 PM
Word to the wise: avoid D&D wiki. Getting your ideas from there is a lot like getting your food from the dumpster behind McDonalds. Only the quality is probably more consistent behind McDonalds.

Jiriku...are you secretly me? Is that what's going on here?

Basically, the man is correct. D&D Wiki is a place to get, if anything, inspiration from a concept. Trying to base mechanics on 98% of the stuff there (or relying on it to be correct) is like performing open heart surgery with a sledgehammer. It'll work, but it will NOT be easy, and you'd sure as heck better know what you're doing.

:smalltongue:

If you're looking for places to copy/paste text from, google the phrase Hypertext SRD.

Hamswordsman
2010-06-30, 05:11 PM
Jiriku...are you secretly me? Is that what's going on here?

Basically, the man is correct. D&D Wiki is a place to get, if anything, inspiration from a concept. Trying to base mechanics on 98% of the stuff there (or relying on it to be correct) is like performing open heart surgery with a sledgehammer. It'll work, but it will NOT be easy, and you'd sure as heck better know what you're doing.

:smalltongue:

If you're looking for places to copy/paste text from, google the phrase Hypertext SRD.

Hypertext is actually where I got the text from. Do not know how I confused the two... Verify it for yourself if you want. I'm just using the text so I do not need to type it all up not for ideas. Still do not know how i switched.

lesser_minion
2010-06-30, 05:21 PM
Surgo forked the dungeons and dragons wiki -- the "now with quality control" version can be found here (http://dungeons.wikia.com).

As has been said already, D&D wiki is not particularly brilliant.

luv2breformed
2010-06-30, 05:24 PM
I have zero experience homebrewing, but have been browsing a little and thought this idea was interesting. the study ability mentioned I think is really neat, but if you wanted to use it purely to help your allies, it would be cool if it were more like a telepathic communication feature. It would probably add some flair to be able to share information with your allies this way, and you could call the feature "share insight" or something like that. I don't know of any spells off the top of my head that do this, but you could certainly find one and make it "at will" or "x uses per day". Just a thought.

jiriku
2010-06-30, 05:34 PM
Heh! It's all good, Ham. And Djinn...let's just say...you should avoid mirrors.


So...looks like you've got a theme developing:


Able to avoid detection
Perceptive, can locate weak points
Can grant combat bonuses to nearby allies
Able to inflict status effects or ability damage with attacks
Able to strike and disappear
Persuasive, can easily trick others
Able to appear to be in places where he isn't


This is a core concept that can make a strong, flexible character! It's broad enough that you'll be able to do something useful to help your friends in almost any situation in or out of a fight. You might not be the uberpwnzz0rz, but you'll be right there, pulling your own weight, contributing with everyone else.

Since you've got Complete Adventurer, take a look at the ninja class. Be warned...the ninja is very weak, and not very effective in its role. Don't know what the designers were thinking. But their hearts were in the right place -- you can borrow concepts from it and improve on them.

Also, flip to the feats section and check out Staggering Strike. I think you'll want to take that feat.

Hamswordsman
2010-06-30, 06:19 PM
I have zero experience homebrewing, but have been browsing a little and thought this idea was interesting. the study ability mentioned I think is really neat, but if you wanted to use it purely to help your allies, it would be cool if it were more like a telepathic communication feature. It would probably add some flair to be able to share information with your allies this way, and you could call the feature "share insight" or something like that. I don't know of any spells off the top of my head that do this, but you could certainly find one and make it "at will" or "x uses per day". Just a thought.

Ya it would be highly suspicious for a voice to come out of a corner "Attack the Left Flank" so it seems like a reasonable idea.
I also think that study is probably the way to expand the class more. Here is my ideas for study

Study Anatomy
The Deceiver Studies the creature and examines how the creature's muscles work and operate and learns their weak points. Someone actually needs to hit him in order for him to suffer the ability damage.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Physical damage damage
1 | +1 | -1 Str, Con or Dex
5 | +2 | -2 Str, Con or Dex
10|+3 | -4 Str, Con, or Dex
15 | +4 | -6 Str, Con or Dex
20 | +5 | -8 Str, Con or Dex[/table]

Search for Vital Points
The Deceiver studies the creature and sees where the body is weak to various poisons.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Fort Save deduction
2 | +1 | -1 on fort save
4 | +2 | -2 on fort save
6 | +2 | -3 on fort save
8 | +3 | -4 on fort save
10 | +3 | -5 on fort save
12 | +4 | -6 on fort save
14 | +4 | -7 on fort save
16 | +5 | -8 on fort save
18 | +5 | -9 on fort save
20 | +5 | -10 on fort save[/table]

Study Movement
The Deceiver studies the dodging patterns of the target.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Reflex Save Deduction
2 | +1 | -1 on Reflex Save
4 | +2 | -2 on Reflex Save
6 | +3 | -3 on Reflex Save
8 | +4 | -4 on Reflex Save
10 | +5 | -5 on Reflex Save
12 | +6 | -6 on Reflex Save
14 | +7 | -7 on Reflex Save
16 | +8 | -8 on Reflex Save
18 | +9 | -9 on Reflex Save
20 | +10 | -10 on Reflex Save[/table]

Observe
You observe the target trying to see anything suspicious as well as focusing on what they may be casting.
The check bonus applies to the skills Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather information, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, Search, Spellcraft checks only on the target.
If the target does something like turn invisible, mislead, mirror image, or some other illusion then you get to check where the real one went. I need a check and an opposing check cause I am absolutely horrible at balancing this.
{table]Deceiver Level | Insight Bonus | Check Bonus
1 | +1 | +1
3 | +1 | +2
5 | +2 | +3 Learn General patterns of Movement
7 | +2 | +4
9 | +3 | +5
11 | +3 | +6 Know what the creature is going to do next 50% of the time
13 | +4 | +7
15 | +4 | +8
17 | +5 | +9
19 | +5 | +10Know what the creature is going to do next[/table]
"The Know what creature is going to do" should probably be supplemented with a sense motive check.

These obviously need work but they are a general idea of what I want. I can spread them out on levels so it isn't so front heavy. I'm thinking making it so you learn a new area of study every 5 levels.
I also made tweaks incorporating some of the poison ideas and filled out the chart some more. The big change will probably be the new BAB which is weird but not off the wall.

Analysis
2010-06-30, 07:31 PM
Consider borrowing some things (Death Attack - it is similar to your Study concept, Poison Use, Hide in Plain Sight) from the Assassin:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm

Come to think of it, making a hybrid of the Assassin prestige class and Beguiler would probably be really cool. Switching out some Beguiler abilities for the Assassin features, spread across 20 instead of 10 levels, and adding the Assassin spell list to the Beguiler one maybe.

jiriku
2010-06-30, 07:43 PM
That could work. Something like the paralysis version of the assassin's death attack, but usable after one round of study (the three rounds thing makes the death attack useless during a combat - many combats are decided before the third round).

Hamswordsman
2010-06-30, 08:07 PM
That could work. Something like the paralysis version of the assassin's death attack, but usable after one round of study (the three rounds thing makes the death attack useless during a combat - many combats are decided before the third round).

Would something like this work:

Study Nerves or Processing
Deceivers learn what are the points of paralysis of the individual and utilizes this information to his benefit.
If a Deceiver or anyone who has the information on weak points makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly paralyzing the target. This takes one standard action. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the Deceiver class level + the Deceiver's Int modifier) against the paralyze effect, she is paralyzed. The victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the Deceiver. If the victimís saving throw succeeds the attack is normal.
Even if this is done by someone else, it still uses the same save.
Though it really isn't in a nice chart like everything else.

jiriku
2010-06-30, 08:14 PM
That's good, but the usual formula is 10 + 1/2 class level + Ability modifier. Ideally you're aiming for a maximimum save DC of 20 + Ability modifier by level 20, which is approximately a 50% chance of success vs. a typical opponent.

Also, it looks like you copy-pasta'd a bit, because your paralyze effect seems to both paralyze and kill the opponent, both at once. :P

As far as where to position the ability, single-target melee-range save-or-die effects usually start appearing around 9th level, while paralysis effects show up as early as 3rd level.

Hamswordsman
2010-06-30, 08:22 PM
That's good, but the usual formula is 10 + 1/2 class level + Ability modifier. Ideally you're aiming for a maximimum save DC of 20 + Ability modifier by level 20, which is approximately a 50% chance of success vs. a typical opponent.

Also, it looks like you copy-pasta'd a bit, because your paralyze effect seems to both paralyze and kill the opponent, both at once. :P

I basically took the Death attack from the assassin made it only a one turn thing but now it is only paralysis. I guess I forgot to delete one of the mentions about death. That is the formula they gave on the sheet though assassin is a prestige class so 1/2 the character lvl isn't a bad idea. I also updated the original thread with certain things so if some people can help point out some critiques, that would be great!

I am really thinking about changing to using the spells of the assassin but I really don't like the fact that they are actual spells and I don't have enough uses of invisibility or other key spells. Maybe I'll just tweak them around heavily

jiriku
2010-06-30, 08:32 PM
Yeah, typically the save DC for an ability on a base class is 10 + 1/2 level + Stat mod, and the save DC for an ability on a prestige class is 10 + level + Stat mod.

Since the typical PrC is 10 levels, they end up with the same value, but I think it's sloppy design. The save DC on the PrC ability starts out weak for its level, then rockets up to be really strong for its level by the time you take 10 levels in the class, then gets stale as you move out into another class after completing it and it's not progressing any longer. It's a rough ride. Plus, some designers follow that progression even for 5-level PrCs, and 10 + 5 + Stat mod is just a bucket of suck by the time you get to high levels. Heck, my grandma could pass that save on a 2 or better.

When I build or modify prestige classes, I usually set their ability save DCs at 10 + 1/2 total character level + stat mod. That makes the save DC start higher and progress more smoothly.

Hamswordsman
2010-06-30, 09:16 PM
Consider borrowing some things (Death Attack - it is similar to your Study concept, Poison Use, Hide in Plain Sight) from the Assassin:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm

Come to think of it, making a hybrid of the Assassin prestige class and Beguiler would probably be really cool. Switching out some Beguiler abilities for the Assassin features, spread across 20 instead of 10 levels, and adding the Assassin spell list to the Beguiler one maybe.

Got the Study idea from the from the assassin actually and I think it was a good idea gone wrong so I made it much more entertaining and useful than death attack and I think it became much more interesting.
I'm gonna go ahead and add poison use cause I think he is fairly underpowered and it adds another interesting angle to the Deceiver.

I think I like the idea of changing him around a bit. He is still going to be someone who hides and studies and avoids getting into the middle of the conflict. The change is that he eventually comes out of the shadows and does precise calculated strikes that don't rely on strength but ingenuity and careful calculation. so he can actually do a bit more than sit in the back all day.

Analysis
2010-07-01, 06:58 AM
I am really thinking about changing to using the spells of the assassin but I really don't like the fact that they are actual spells and I don't have enough uses of invisibility or other key spells. Maybe I'll just tweak them around heavily

Maybe they could get Invocations (as the Warlock from Complete Arcane) instead? These are effectively at-will spells, and include, among other things, some stealthy options.

Hamswordsman
2010-07-01, 11:15 AM
Maybe they could get Invocations (as the Warlock from Complete Arcane) instead? These are effectively at-will spells, and include, among other things, some stealthy options.

The invocation idea is perfect! I don't have any of the invocation books so I think I will change it around a bit as well
Here is what I think I will change it to:
Invocation is the same thing as Cunning except cunning is a supernatural ability.

Cunning Inexperienced: Self-Invisibility, Clone, Take a Disguise, Ghost Sounds, Precision
Cunning Apprentice: Fool, Change Appearance, Smoke Bombs, Latch to walls
Cunning Experienced: Swap Clones, Self-Freedom of movement, Locate Creature, Change direction
Cunning Master: Don't really know yet

I updated all of the "spells" so they are exactly like the normal one except they are supernatural.

Hamswordsman
2010-07-02, 06:15 PM
I think I am mostly done with the character but still thinking of ideas on filling out the top levels some more as well as filling out the master cunning list. With the new study spell casting, he is now able to take spell casters by windwalking through the front lines and largely disable them.
I'm just wondering what tier this is in cause the new Cunning thing makes him a spell caster that can spam spells but they still don't actually do any damage or disable creatures so I think it works. He also cant take on an encounter all by himself which is the epitome of a tier 1 or 2 character. I want him to be somewhere in tiers 2-4 and right now, i think he is a middle tier 3 depending on who else is in your party
Do all of the abilities he have make sense? Are they balanced out right? Should I switch some skills and abilities to other levels?

I'm also thinking about taking out the Master Cunning and adjusting the levels so that it is only three tiers.

Thanks for all of the criticism and hopefully you guys can find some more things to improve on.