[HOMEBREW] d20 3.5 Spear Dancer (based on Aiel Warrior)

[SylvanPrincess]

UNDER CONSTRUCTION
SORRY, COME BACK LATER :)



I am working on a new version of this with descriptions and everything!

[Milskidasith]

I wouldn't recommend numeric guides; they tend to be very poor at actually estimating the capability of classes. For instance, as usual, the Monk would be very costly due to the sheer number of minor abilities it gets, yet wizards cost very little to actually make and could actually be substantially improved.

Anyway, you need to work on your formatting; this is nigh unreadable. You should also probably put all the class features on the table in the actual text of the class, because it looks like this only has one feature.

EDIT X2: I also like how Scribe Scroll is considered a "mystical" level feat and a familiar is an "excellent" ability; it really doesn't make sense Scribe Scroll, which most wizards can ignore, is worth more points than, say, Power Attack, or Martial Study.

[SylvanPrincess]

[edited]

comments were concerning the points system i had used, no longer apply.

[Milskidasith]

You know you could save it to a word document instead of posting it unfinished, right?

[SylvanPrincess]

[edited]

wasnt on topic

[DragoonWraith]

Uh... Milskidasith is by far the greatest source of constructive criticism available on these boards. Seriously.

Anyway, a quick glance says it doesn't look very good, but there is an algai'd'siswai class here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11384). Like I said, it doesn't look particularly well done, but it might be a source of ideas.

Also, much better guides to homebrewing:
Fax Celestis's Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) - includes lots of tables you can use to create your own - just quote his posts and copy the table code. This will help us read your work much better. Bolding and the like will also help.
Djinn in Tonic's Philosophy of Creation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150609) - tons of great ideas for pacing and planning homebrew.
Finally, by posting this here you're asking for feedback, and we can't give you that unless it's complete. Basically, you're wasting our time by not having this finished for us to read. Out of courtesy to those who do want to help you, it's best to finish it, or at least have ideas going.

Or just to make the thread a request for help, instead.

[Temotei]

Points Sytem

Ew. Avoid point systems.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save| Special
1st|+1|+2|+2|+0|Spear frenzy 1/day, AC bonus, Endurance
2nd|+2|+3|+3|+1|Trackless Step, uncanny dodge
3rd|+3|+3|+3|+1|Always ready
4th|+4|+4|+4|+1|Spear frenzy 2/day
5th|+5|+4|+4|+2|Dance the spears
6th|+6/+1|+5|+5|+2|Improved uncanny dodge
7th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+2|Improved crit range (short spear) +1
8th|+8/+3|+6|+6|+3|Spear frenzy 3/day
9th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+3|Deadly stalker (silence at full speed)
10th|+10/+5|+7|+7|+3|Greater frenzy
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+7|+4|Improved crit range (short spear) +2
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+8|+4|Spear frenzy 4/day
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+8|+4|Deadly stalker (camouflage)
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+9|+5|Deadly stalker (hide in plain sight)
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+9|+5|Improved crit range (short spear) +3
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+10|+5|Spear frenzy 5/day
17th|+17/+12|+7|+2|+10|+10|+6|Tireless frenzy
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+11|+6|Superb striker (strike with no thought)
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+11|+6|Improved crit range (short spear) +4
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+12|+6|Spear frenzy 6/day[/table]

Spear Frenzy: Starting at 1st level, an aiel warrior gains the ability to focus her mind into a thoughtless frenzy of superb deadliness
and accuracy. In this state of frenzy, she temporarily gains a
+2 to Strength and +2 to Dexterity. Her speed increases by
10 feet, and she can choose to make a flurry of blows with a
full attack action in melee, making one extra attack per round
while suffering a -2 penalty on every attack.

While in a spear frenzy, an Aiel Warrior cannot use skills or abilities
that require patience or concentration, except Move Silently.
(She cannot use any class skills in a frenzy except Intimidate.)

She can use any feat she might have except for item creation feats,
metamagic feats, and Skill Focus (if it's tied to a skill that requires
patience or concentration). A spear frenzy lasts for a number of
rounds equal to 3 + the aiel warrior's Constitution modifier.

The aiel warrior may prematurely end the frenzy voluntarily. At
the end of the frenzy, the aiel warrior is fatigued (-2 to Strength,
-2 to Dexterity, can't charge or run) for the duration of that encounter.

The aiel warrior can only enter a frenzy once per encounter, and
only a certain number of times per day (determined by level).
Entering a frenzy takes no time itself, but the aiel warrior can only
do it during her action, not in response to somebody else's action.

At 10th level, the bonuses from greater frenzy to Strength and
Dexterity increase by +2 (to +4), and her speed increases by another 10 feet (to +20 feet). The duration increases by 1 round.

At 17th level, the aiel warrior can spear frenzy without becoming
fatigued.

At 20th level, the bonuses to Strength and Dexterity increase by another +2
(to +6 total), and her speed while in a frenzy increases another 10 feet
(to +30 feet). The duration increases by 2 rounds.

You'll have to describe all of their class features. I fixed the table and the formatting as much as possible, though.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I wouldn't recommend numeric guides; they tend to be very poor at actually estimating the capability of classes. For instance, as usual, the Monk would be very costly due to the sheer number of minor abilities it gets, yet wizards cost very little to actually make and could actually be substantially improved.

Anyway, you need to work on your formatting; this is nigh unreadable. You should also probably put all the class features on the table in the actual text of the class, because it looks like this only has one feature.

This. Doubly this for any point-based construction system. They don't take into account the myriad of possibilities of the game, nor the combination effect that powers have. The people who write them rarely have any grasp of actual game mechanics.

Also, the ability you have written now is unusual. A speed boost promotes motion, but a flurry ability promotes standing still and full-attacking. That's conflicting design right there.

It's also fairly weak, but I'm not sure what the other abilities are, so I'll reserve judgment.


Uh... Milskidasith is by far the greatest source of constructive criticism available on these boards. Seriously.

Sad Djinn is sad. :smallfrown:

That said, he's probably right. There are only a few that might be close.

[SylvanPrincess]

This. Doubly this for any point-based construction system.

Also, the ability you have written now is unusual. A speed boost promotes motion, but a flurry ability promotes standing still and full-attacking. That's conflicting design right there.

It's also fairly weak, but I'm not sure what the other abilities are, so I'll reserve judgment.



Sad Djinn is sad. :smallfrown:

That said, he's probably right. There are only a few that might be close.


frenzy here is directed taken almost word for word from the sohei class in oriental adventures. talk to its designiers about the speed increase :(

ok, im just going to delete this. im new here, but jeez, forgive me. this is my take on a fun idea. thanks to temotei for converting it.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

frenzy here is directed taken almost word for word from the sohei class in oriental adventures. talk to its designiers about the speed increase :(

The Sohei is, sadly, poorly designed. That's why we're here to help. But we have to see more first. :smallbiggrin:


ok, im just going to delete this. im new here, but jeez, forgive me. this is my take on a fun idea. thanks to temotei for converting it.

...but I wasn't on your case at all! There's nothing I need to forgive! I'm honestly just here to help, and I was commenting and critiquing on things that will help you become a better homebrewer: avoiding point based systems, and learning about conflicting design intent. That's all you have up so far, so that's all I could comment on.

I'm trying to offer the critique you wanted, not put you down. :smallfrown:

[SylvanPrincess]

im sorry, i felt a little attacked by everyone, this is something i poured myself into, and i guess i took it too hard. im sure milkishtesith is awesome at critiquing, and ill finish it tonight after work. my humble thanks to everyone who took the time to read it

edited the op class list some.

quick ability descriptions.
dance the spears lets you use power attack and combat expertise simultaneously. say u hava 5 bab, you can put 3 into ac for the next round and get +2 to damage. maybe its not as well thought out as it should be yet, but thats the gist. any ideas are welcome

Strike with No Thought: is like the iajutsu master (OA).lets you roll a full attack before initiative is rolled if the target is flat footed.

[SylvanPrincess]

I'm trying to offer the critique you wanted, not put you down. :smallfrown:

sorry, estrogen :shrugs sheepishly:

[DragoonWraith]

Temotei, that was nice of you, but she can't use it because it's in a quote. If she quotes you, it doesn't include what you quoted. So she won't be able to access the table codes that way. You should edit so she can.


Sad Djinn is sad. :smallfrown:

That said, he's probably right. There are only a few that might be close.
Well, you're certainly the best 'brewer here, I'd think, but I don't see you PEACH as much as Milski, so... hehe. No reason to be sad, certainly.

[Temotei]

Temotei, that was nice of you, but she can't use it because it's in a quote. If she quotes you, it doesn't include what you quoted. So she won't be able to access the table codes that way. You should edit so she can.

Crap. You're right. I forgot about that.


Well, you're certainly the best 'brewer here, I'd think, but I don't see you PEACH as much as Milski, so... hehe. No reason to be sad, certainly.

I don't even dare guess who's the best homebrewer on the forums. The Demented One, Krimm_Blackleaf, Realms of Chaos, Djinn_In_Tonic...so many.

Milskidasith is probably the best critique man on the site, however. All of his time spent on the Homebrew section is for critiquing and commenting, which might contribute a little to that title.

[Siosilvar]

I don't even dare guess who's the best homebrewer on the forums. The Demented One, Krimm_Blackleaf, Realms of Chaos, Djinn_In_Tonic...so many.You forgot Fax and Vorpal Tribble.


That being said, there is a Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) barbarian variant that gives nearly identical benefits to your Spear Frenzy ability; you could look at that and see if it works.

Dance the Spears doesn't seem to give any benefit at all; as far as I can tell, you've always been able to use both Power Attack and Combat Expertise in the same round.

EDIT: Ooh, Dance the Spears should let you take -X to attack and get the benefits of BOTH Power Attack and Combat Expertise. That'd be a useful ability.

[jiriku]

Food for thought:


The classes you're borrowing your abilities from, the sohei, ranger and monk, are all considered pretty marginal by many. Don't be afraid to make your class better than those classes.
In general, "better" means more options and more flexibility, not bigger numbers.


Recommendations:


Allow the extra flurry attacks on a standard action, and on a charge. Consider allowing them on an attack of opportunity too, if the character also acquires Combat Reflexes.
Include class skills. Lots of them. I'd recommend 4 or 6 skill points per level.
At levels 11, 12, 15, 16, 19, and 20, you grant small incremental improvements to existing abilities. These small improvements are much less valuable than the original abilities were, and moreover, higher-level characters new new options, not merely the ability to continue doing what they did before. Do grant your incremental improvements, but consider also granting an additional class feature at each of the six levels I mentioned, to give the Aiel Warrior the ability to do at least six new things she couldn't do before.

[DragoonWraith]

You're right; I was just thinking in terms of the PrC contest considering how many he's won, but not everyone participates in those, including all of the others you've mentioned. Still, he's damn good, and I'm really bad with hyperbole. My apologies to everyone else who is also damn good that I was forgetful.

[SylvanPrincess]

as this is my first day on these forums i hope he forgives my ignorance! i understand what youre saying about class abilities grating more at higher levels. originally i had stolen the iajutsu master prc 10 level class as the higher level abilites. but one i added (what i thought was too powerful) all the frenzy abilities, then i figured i should take it out.

originally, this class got jab- which essentially was flurry of blows with a spear. also a sudden strike progression i think. it also got the monks full ac bonus (not just wis to ac), and speed bonus. ill see if i can find the original class, it is such a different feel. i like it better even... i have it written on graph paper, ill put it up here to compare.

Siosilvar: i love the idea to make dance the spears BOTH abilities. is level 5 too early for that? also, should i add a weapon specialization progression? and i am going to change imp crit +1,+2,+3,+4 to 2 installments of improved crit.

tometei, thanks again for doing the chart. ill look into the rules for posting and do it the right way. im sorry all :(

[--Lime--]

To get Temotei's table into your post, just click the "quote" button, copy everything in the posting box to the clipboard, go back to the thread. Click "edit" on your first post, paste from the clipboard, remove the [quote] tags, and you're golden.

I for one am glad to see spears here. Not enough people use spears in my book. Improved crit range is also underused and another thing I'm glad to see here.

I know the point has already been got across, but steer clear of point buy for classes :P

[Siosilvar]

Siosilvar: i love the idea to make dance the spears BOTH abilities. is level 5 too early for that?
At level 5, you're probably fine with giving both. Of course, you have to make sure they have both, so... here's a writeup (choose "she" or "he" as appropriate, but keep it consistent throughout your class):

Dance the Spears
An Aiel Warrior of at least 5th level gains Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, even if [she/he] does not meet the requirements.

In addition, [she/he] gains a bonus to damage whenever using the Combat Expertise feat with a spear. This damage bonus is equal to twice the penalty [she/he] takes on [her/his] attack rolls.


also, should i add a weapon specialization progression?
To put it bluntly, Weapon Specialization sucks. It's a small numerical bonus; something you write off once and then forget about; it doesn't define anything about your character aside from "I like to use X weapon".

I don't really like numerical bonuses that apply all the time; I like to have more tactical abilities or things you're reminded you have every time you use them. Sneak Attack is a good example; it gives you a style of fighting (multiple, actually) that gives you a boost in the number of dice you roll. I like rolling handfuls of d6s; it gives me a feeling I'm actually being rewarded for doing something special, even if a flat +X bonus would be better than my dice.

feels more rewarding, even if a +1 crit range isn't as useful as a +1 bonus to damage. This is why I like playing rogues and duelists and other "sneaky" classes; they simply feel better than "attack of the numbers" to me.]

Here's another idea for an ability, playing off of a more controlling aspect of spears: let an Aiel Warrior, after succeeding on an attack, push around a target.

After all, traditional spears were useful because they kept things away from you, gave you control over what was happening. That's a tactical advantage; not just bigger and better numbers. Tactical advantages are, for me at least, more fun.

[DragoonWraith]

(Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization aren't bad just for emphasizing "I am X-wielder!", which isn't a bad thing for a class. But yeah, mechanically they're a waste of time.

Anyway, Combat Expertise that also counts as Power Attack? Interesting. I do kind of like that idea, but how does it function with Power Attack?

[Siosilvar]

Anyway, Combat Expertise that also counts as Power Attack? Interesting. I do kind of like that idea, but how does it function with Power Attack?

As normal?

-5 to hit gives you +5 AC, +10 damage. From there, you can Power Attack like you normally would.

Hmm... all that would mean for a charger build is that your AC is a bit higher than normal (still abysmal) and your to-hit and damage are a bit lower. Damage could go up to 10 points higher than normal, but then your to-hit is even lower.

Two-handed non-charger, you can PA for 5 points more and get some free AC out of it... but you're not really that much more effective.

So, it's probably fine. Trade-offs as usual, and it doesn't look like an overpowering ability.

[Milskidasith]

Of course, then you can power attack for essentially nothing with shock trooper, since you power attack sacrificing AC, and gain AC from combat expertise.

[Siosilvar]

Of course, then you can power attack for essentially nothing with shock trooper, since you power attack sacrificing AC, and gain AC from combat expertise.

-5 to hit to get that AC.

So you give up some of the benefit of Shock Trooper in order to get more damage out of it... sort of confusing, but makes sense in a roundabout sort of way.

[Temotei]

You forgot Fax and Vorpal Tribble.

Vorpal is the god of creature creation. Gods. I can't believe I didn't type him down. Of course, the balance of his creatures sometimes comes into question, but the level of coolness makes up for it, mostly. :smalltongue:

Fax made d20r, which is generally okay. It's something different and massive, so I respect him for that.

[centuriancode]

Something else you might want to consider adding would be essentially pointless abilities/restrictions that add to the flavour of the class.

Little things like "can't stab a blacksmith" or "shuns gypsies", which are likely to have no effect on combat (or most games) but can bring out the eccentricities of ji'e'toh.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Something else you might want to consider adding would be essentially pointless abilities/restrictions that add to the flavour of the class.

Little things like "can't stab a blacksmith" or "shuns gypsies", which are likely to have no effect on combat (or most games) but can bring out the eccentricities of ji'e'toh.

Ah, sarcasm. Speaking of which...


-10 Exclusive Alignment (Druid's)
-25 Code of Honor (Greater Code), Weapon Prohibition (NO SWORDS)
-15 Skill Penalties (cant swim (taking a cross class rank in swim costs 5 skill points, takes a minus 10 to any attempt), (-10 to ride checks)

Exclusive Alignment can work in very specific situations, when backed by strong flavor. I'd normally recommend against it unless you have very good reason. Same with a Code of Honor, which you'd need to write out so we can see it.

Restricting them to no swords is silly. Is there a logical reason they shouldn't be able to pick up a sword, even if just to flail around with it?

Also, never mess with the skill system like that unless you have a really, really good reason. Which I don't think this class has. That's just restricting a player for no discernible reason.

[SylvanPrincess]

a sword is designed to kill a man.
they used to be pacifists a LONG time ago- they wont use anything designed solely to kill humans. anything thats dual purpose for hunting and gathering is coo tho

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

a sword is designed to kill a man.
they used to be pacifists a LONG time ago- they wont use anything designed solely to kill humans. anything thats dual purpose for hunting and gathering is coo tho

...but they're obviously not pacifists now. Also, the modern spear WAS designed to kill a man. Just like the old sword (the knife) was designed for hunting and skinning purposes.

Anyway, that's a shaky justification at best. I feel it's better to remove that restriction completely: a base class shouldn't shoe-horn the player into a particular fighting style. Adding restrictions into a base class, in fact, is something that should be done as sparingly as possible.

[DragoonWraith]

I do agree that this makes much more sense as a Prestige Class.

However, in terms of the source material, yes, they are no longer pacifists. The vast majority of them have no idea they ever were. They don't use swords for cultural/pseudo-religious reasons that they don't particularly understand very well, with the exception of the chiefs and wise women, who, IIRC, hide it from the rest of the tribes. The rest of the tribes "know" that there is a good reason, but don't know what it is - which is fortunate, because there's not really any good reason.

[SylvanPrincess]

I do agree that this makes much more sense as a Prestige Class.

However, in terms of the source material, yes, they are no longer pacifists. The vast majority of them have no idea they ever were. They don't use swords for cultural/pseudo-religious reasons that they don't particularly understand very well, with the exception of the chiefs and wise women, who, IIRC, hide it from the rest of the tribes. The rest of the tribes "know" that there is a good reason, but don't know what it is - which is fortunate, because there's not really any good reason.

no, its against everything aiel. they shun swords, and this class will too :P its no different that the druid not wearing metal armor, or the monks no armor ability, and makes things interesting. i figure there will be a penalty (24 hour period) that the warrior cant use its class abilites

[centuriancode]

...but they're obviously not pacifists now. Also, the modern spear WAS designed to kill a man. Just like the old sword (the knife) was designed for hunting and skinning purposes.

Anyway, that's a shaky justification at best. I feel it's better to remove that restriction completely: a base class shouldn't shoe-horn the player into a particular fighting style. Adding restrictions into a base class, in fact, is something that should be done as sparingly as possible.

Firstly, apologies if my earlier post seemed like sarcasm. It wasn't meant to be.

Secondly, why no swords makes sense. Robert Jordan created the Aiel as part of his ridiculously long (but very good) Wheel of Time saga (which has now undergone author existence failure :smallfrown:). Part of the Aiel flavour and background is that they can't use weapons with no purpose but to kill a person. They are allowed to use spears, knives, and bows as they all have (theoretically) a non-military purpose. It's just swords that are out of the question.

They have some really weird things as well. This includes not being able to harm Blacksmiths, and staying away from a gorup that are effectively gypsies in the Wheel of Time universe.

Oh, and yeah, this makes much more sense as a prestige class for something like a monk or ranger.

[SylvanPrincess]

the spear master class could be a prc sure... but something this specific? i mean, if i wanted to do an aiel warrior as a prestige class, id just rename the iajutsu master prc, and change its abilities to wis-oriented ones. its true though, this class is too specific race-wise, and i should probably just look at it from building a badass spear class. but i am designing it to use it in a game, in which my dm is including a ripoff of the aiel... i dunno

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

the spear master class could be a prc sure... but something this specific? i mean, if i wanted to do an aiel warrior as a prestige class, id just rename the iajutsu master prc, and change its abilities to wis-oriented ones. its true though, this class is too specific race-wise, and i should probably just look at it from building a badass spear class. but i am designing it to use it in a game, in which my dm is including a ripoff of the aiel... i dunno

The thing about specific classes is that they SHOULD be Prestige Classes. Base classes are supposed to be a basis from which you can build any number of possible characters. The more restrictive the class, the more the likelihood it should actually be a PrC increases.

[Moofaa]

the spear master class could be a prc sure... but something this specific? i mean, if i wanted to do an aiel warrior as a prestige class, id just rename the iajutsu master prc, and change its abilities to wis-oriented ones. its true though, this class is too specific race-wise, and i should probably just look at it from building a badass spear class. but i am designing it to use it in a game, in which my dm is including a ripoff of the aiel... i dunno

Don't let what some other people suggest get you down. Remember that this is D&D where anything can happen if the DM rules it. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with including seemingly ridiculous requirements in a new class. If the Aiel were required to wear miniskirts and drink grape juice or lose their class features then so be it. When designing worry about what makes sense in your particular campaign, if someone else doesn't like the restrictions they can take them out when they use the class in their own game.

Also having a race-specific class for the Aiel makes sense from what I remember. I haven't read the books in ages but it seems to be that nearly all Aiel were warrior-types. They also had ninja-like skills so if it were me I would give them stealth skills as class skills if they aren't already.

Also if it helps I'd reccomend looking up Open Office as a free alternative to MS Word or Wordpad. You can do a lot more with it and its compatible with most MS file formats. I use it for all my D&D stuff now.

[SylvanPrincess]

thanks a lot for the consoling :) i did get a little discouraged at first, but now im rolling with it. the thing is, a lot of people here have said that this class is potentially weak, and i fail to see how. frenzy seems like a good ability (from the sohei) and i improved it to match the barbarian rage progression so that it gets plus 6 to str and dex at level 20. ok maybe compared to a druid20with wildshape elemental this isnt that strong i suppose. i just dont know. also, my friend (and dm in our current game) thinks that EVERYTHING is overpowered. it gets super annoying sometimes. i told him about my dance the spears ability that grants power attack and expertise at the same time ( to be developed further because i liked a few suggestions for it here) and he was like WHAT?? that is sooo over powered! *rolls eyes*. he is designing a class for this upcoming game as well, so i am trying to match the level of class power to his. he made an air bender a looooong time ago and now, with the release of the last air benmder movie he is revisiting the idea.

ANYWAY... i still am going tyo repost my old aiel warrior class for yousguys's perusal, so i can get a comparison going.

[SylvanPrincess]

well ive edited the OP with a new version of the Spear Dancer class, any ideas? thoughts? changes? id love some help

katy

[jiriku]

You still have some formatting errors in your table in level 17.

The reason we're calling it underpowered is that it suffers from linear warriors, quadratic wizards (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards). Many of the core PHB classes suffer from this as well.

You do alright for the first few levels, but at higher levels, you're mostly still granting powers that are appropriate for a level 3-6 game, while spellcasters are getting much better powers. Let's compare your class at levels 17-20 with the wizard and the cleric by way of example:

Wizard 17-20:

summon a mighty extraplanar being, compel it to serve you
travel bodily to another plane with your friends
become immune to surprise
stop time
turn into any creature ever
slay groups of foes instantly
create your own personal pocket dimension


Cleric 17-20:

raise the dead with no level loss
summon a mighty extraplanar being, compel it to serve you
travel bodily to another plane with your friends
heal all your allies of a tremendous amount of damage


Aiel Warrior 17-20:

+10 feet to land movement speed only
+1d8 sudden strike damage
+5% threat range with a limited selection of weapons


The comparison is slightly unfair because you haven't designed your level 20 ability, and because wizards and clerics are (rightly) criticized for having over-the-top 9th-level spells...but now try comparing your 17-20 powers against what a wizard or cleric gets at levels 7-10:

Wizard 7-10:

instantly travel hundreds of miles with your friends
conjure up a variety of resilient or damaging barriers
spy on foes from miles away
build a small keep in a matter of days without manpower or money
possess your foe, or make him helpless with a single action
bind any number of powerful outsiders


Cleric 7-10:
Raise the dead
become immune to grapples, paralysis and entanglement
dismiss extraplanar creatures
instantly slay foes with a touch
summon the aid of an outsider that's as powerful as you are
heal terrible wounds with a touch


Aiel Warrior 17-20:

+10 feet to land movement speed only
+1d8 sudden strike damage
+5% threat range with a limited selection of weapons


Now, you don't need to try to exactly match the power of the cleric and wizard, but when casters that are 10 levels lower than you are getting better stuff, there's an issue.

[SylvanPrincess]

well to be fair, its 5d8 sudden strike, but yeah.

[jiriku]

I wrote +1d8 because the other four dice were already granted at previous levels. In that 17-20 range, sudden strike only received a single die of increase.

I think the root of your problem here is D&D's power level. You've created a class that fairly accurately describes the role and powers of the Aiel warrior, but if Wheel of Time had been a D&D game, the campaign would have ended somewhere around levels 8-12. Most Aiel were probably between 3rd and 6th level. You didn't see Rand and his buddies routinely 'porting hundreds of miles at the drop of a hat, flying around in gaseous form at 120 miles per hour, summoning humongously powerful outsiders, raising the dead with a diamond and three seconds worth of effort, or doing any of the other stuff that high-level D&D characters routinely do.

If you want your class to accurately describe the scope and effectiveness of the Aiel warrior, I'd recommend that you make it a 5-level prestige class designed to be entered from monk at aroung 4th to 6th level and granting use of traditional Aiel weapons as special monk weapons, among other things.

If you want your class to be a 20-level base class no matter what, I'd recommend that you sit down for a brainstorming session, put on your Robert Jordan hat, and imagine what kind of powers a level 11+ Aiel warrior would have had if there had ever been any in the Wheel of Time series (because assuredly, there weren't). You're going to have to develop supernatural powers that go radically beyond the scope of the books if you want your class to be competitive in a high-level D&D environment.

[DragoonWraith]

I dunno, Rand was pretty ridiculously powerful. But yeah, I agree, no one else in the books besides possibly the BBEG is higher than like level 8.

[SylvanPrincess]

kk... well then if aiel warriors are 6-12th level in the wheel of time, then id imagine a lev 20 speardancer to be much like the charaters in samurai or dynasty warriors - multicleave, hitting multiple targets in one hit, devastating supernatural abilities...maybe i give them a limited damage spells spell list based on some of the destructive abilities in WoT? or make it more like the amazon in diablo II, thunder strike, poison jav, fend (whirlwind?), some sorta fire strike? youve given me much to think about. the problem as i said before is that people will have problems with any class stronger than what ive listed here :( -nobody thinks about your points about what a spell caster can do at higher levels. i will talk to them about it though

[DragoonWraith]

It's another reason that a 5-level PrC seems fitting - it fits the level range better, too.

But anyway, no, I don't think the Aiel in the books are 6th-12th level. More like 3rd-6th. Seriously. Hercules (as in the Greek demigod) is realistically probably not more than level 7-8 or thereabouts).

[centuriancode]

You could try working in something like the taveren effect. Any NPC you meet in DnD who is more than about level 10 (in PC classes) is usually favoured by the Gods, or has some other overt power source that makes them more awesome than anyone else for the last hundred years or so.

Apart from being Rand or the Chosen, the closest that anyone in WoT universe gets to this is the taveren effect. Matt is able to do ridiculous things and survive practically anything because of his insane, taveren-inspired luck (and immunity to magic), Rand's father apparently benefited from the Leadership feat because he was taveren, and Artur Hawkwing had the same thing. As this class is a physical combat class, you could try stealing some of the effects of the Egoist Psion.

Alternatively, you could give them (at higher levels) some of the supernatural powers that emerge that aren't based on the one power. This would be things like Min's ability to see the future and could function as a 1/day spell-like ability, or something similar.

If you were really desparate for something to justify this as a 20 level base class, you could begin to give them unconscious use of the one power at higher levels. There is justification for this in the original canon when they first arrive in the waste by coming through the strange pillar and someone (Moiraine?) says that any Aiel man who learns he can channel goes north towards Shayol Ghul to hunt the Dark One. The unconscious aspect of the power usually manifests itself as ridiculous luck (essentially functioning as spell-like abilities) to replicate some natural effect just as it is needed most (like when Rand calls down a lightning bolt that fries the Dark Friend without knowing it in what I think was Four Kings).

One of these things beginning to emerge at high levels could justify your class for a few extra levels, though anything other than the taveren thing is likely to change the feel of the class. Even so, I doubt that you can extend it beyond a 10 level PrC, but good luck to you anyway.

[jiriku]

kk... well then if aiel warriors are 6-12th level in the wheel of time, then id imagine a lev 20 speardancer to be much like the charaters in samurai or dynasty warriors - multicleave, hitting multiple targets in one hit, devastating supernatural abilities...maybe i give them a limited damage spells spell list based on some of the destructive abilities in WoT? or make it more like the amazon in diablo II, thunder strike, poison jav, fend (whirlwind?), some sorta fire strike? youve given me much to think about. the problem as i said before is that people will have problems with any class stronger than what ive listed here :( -nobody thinks about your points about what a spell caster can do at higher levels. i will talk to them about it though

The key to developing this is that you don't want to just pile on bigger and bigger numbers. At high levels, an Aiel who deals 500 damage per round is not significantly more dangerous than an Aiel who deals 50 damage per round -- both of them are equally helpless when locked in a forcecage. Add different abilities. Taveren seems like a good approach to me.

[SylvanPrincess]

Touched by the Power: this is my attempt to make this fighter-type class curved better at higher levels. It doesnt have the versatility of a mage at higher levels, but it does get options. At levels 6, 10, 14, and 18, (maybe 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 20?) he/she gets a choice between 2 level appropriate powers.

At level 6, he/she can choose between Lightning Bolt and Fireball. Roll D100. If the DC check is 1-50, then she receives Lightning Bolt; if the DC check is 51-100 she receives Fireball. He/She can cast either as a Sorcerer of the same level. "

my questions to you are these:
which progression should i use for spell-like abilities?

what caster level do you feel is appropriate for these abilities (im leaning towards full)?

should i lessen the BAB to a rogues bab to make it fair?

Should i drop the sudden strike progression, or keep it? im thinking about greater invisibility as one of the spell options...

should i have it be random selection of spell-like abilities?

NOTE: i am going to write it in that one can sacrifice a bonus feat to pick up a lower level spell-like ability that was missed earlier OR to gain an additional per/day casting. i feel this will give people choosing this the option to make the class the way they want, focusing on fighter abilities, more spells, or a more versatile spell list.

would love to hear your thoughts on this new idea tree, how it compares, etc

also might have it at a certain level that a female in this class gets more control over these abilities, while a male starts to lose it some, and gets surges of strength with his abilities- but both start off as fighter-types

[DragoonWraith]

1. Both Fireball and Lightning Bolt are weak.

2. Both Fireball and Lightning Bolt are pointless for the Aiel - she can already do damage, what she needs are other options.

3. 1/day is basically meaningless anyway.

4. Not even being able to choose what powers you get is unbelievably weak.

[SylvanPrincess]

1. Both Fireball and Lightning Bolt are weak.

2. Both Fireball and Lightning Bolt are pointless for the Aiel - she can already do damage, what she needs are other options.

3. 1/day is basically meaningless anyway.

4. Not even being able to choose what powers you get is unbelievably weak.

its the level 6 ability! :P its goes up to 6 a day at level 20 (and level 18 and 20 both get 9th level spells as their abilities)

the spells it will get are comparative to the spells a sorc will get at the same level.

also why i wanted suggestions for spells

[paddyfool]

Randworld channeling is somewhat closer to psionics, particularly the psychokinesis school, and to a lesser extent the psychoportation school, than it is to arcane spellcasting. If you're going to simulate it, you may want to look into some access to the Discipline powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#kineticistPsychokinesisDisciplinePow ers) for those two... with a very limited, but perhaps easily replenishable, power points pool.

EDIT: Although, I hate to say it, but the way I'd fluff this is say that the vast majority of Aiel warriors are swordsages, but that only those few that have any channeling ability take the more supernatural manoevres. I'd also give them some culturally specific feats, starting off with something along the lines of "Aiel upbringing: level one only. You must pass a will save, DC 10 + CL, to ever attack a blacksmith, or use any weapon not on the aiel weapons list, and if you do so you automatically become shaken for 1d6 rounds. You gain weapon proficiency and weapon focus in all Aiel weapons." (Or, y'know, something vaguely along these lines that actually makes game sense, perhaps vaguely modelled on the vows in BoED). You could also have an Aiel culture feat for each Warrior Society (such as the Maidens of the Spear, the Stone Dogs, the Red Shields, etc.), and each would have Aiel Upbringing and the absence of any other Warrior Society feat as their requirement.

[jiriku]

Avoid assigning random powers.
Full caster level is good.
Full base attack is fine.
Sacrificing a feat for access to a single spell is usually a bad deal.
Sudden strike + greater invisibility sounds very good to me. Maybe then you could actually use sudden strike, y'know, more than once per battle.
DW brings up a good point, however, that you don't really need many more ways to deal damage. One or two is fine, but focus on (thematically appropriate) spells that let you do something other than kill people.


A good thing to try when bringing this class to your DM would be to compare it to the right classes. If you compare it to the fighter, monk, ninja or even the barbarian, it's going to look over-powered, because those classes are all quite limited and only good at doing one or two things. Do you have access to Complete Arcane, Tome of Battle, Dungeonscape or Player's Handbook 2? If you do, you can compare it to classes like the warlock, swordsage, factotum or duskblade. It will stack up quite nicely against those classes.

[centuriancode]

its the level 6 ability! :P its goes up to 6 a day at level 20 (and level 18 and 20 both get 9th level spells as their abilities)

the spells it will get are comparative to the spells a sorc will get at the same level.

also why i wanted suggestions for spells

DW is correct is saying that Fireball and Lightning Bolt aren't especially powerful and are the wrong approach. They are third level spells, true, but they cap at damage that is miniscule when compared to what focused casters can do.

MUCH more importantly, they don't fix the basic problem with the design premise. You've assumed that more numbers and more damage are the important parts of a class. If your group only really plays kick-in-the-door type campaigns, then that's not an overt problem in approach, but it does remove the point of spells because the damage isn't really an issue with this class. Instead flexibility is the problem, and that's true even if you do play kitd campaigns. The Aiel is good at fighting in close combat, but if she encounters anything that isn't a stand up fight (say, if enemy casters are using containment rather than destruction, as per Jiriku's Forcecage example) then the ability of the Aiel to do anything at all is almost entirely gone. If you're going to give the Aiel spells (which has the potential to resolve the flexibility issue), then they need to have more possibilities than simply direct damage, which make's Paddyfool's suggestion of psionics an excellent one. It also fits the disciplined, calm, and controlled flavour of the Aiel. An element of randomness can potentially work for arcane casting, but you would need to be very careful with it and ordinary psionics will probably work better and will definitely be easier to create.