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View Full Version : New system for summon monster spells [3.5]



AustontheGreat1
2010-07-03, 03:53 PM
I've always been a little disappointed by the inflexibility of the summon spells. on't get me wrong, I love summoning, I just don't like having to choose from that little list when their are so many new and interesting monsters coming out in new source books and being homebrewed. I was wondering, is it possible to, instead of just creating a list, create a system to let you summon any monster.

I was pondering making it based on CR. Maybe creatures with CR = spell level +2 can be summoned. I don't know, I'm a terrible homebrewer.

Anyway, does any body know if there is a way to make this work or any reasons it just can't work, or isn't a good idea?

Edit: Actually, before you answer those other questions, answer this: Has anything like this been done before?

Milskidasith
2010-07-03, 03:57 PM
First: CR is not an accurate judge of power.

Second: Unlimited summon list, even with a CR 11 limit, gives more versatility than any other spell and would be a must pick up.

Third: CR + 2 is very powerful up to level 5 because the monster you summon will be equal to or greater than the parties actual CR at any given time, and that's assuming the CR is appropriate for you guys. That Damn Crab, for instance, is an easy summon at level 1 or 3 (can't recall it's CR, though I think it was 3 or 4) and is brokenly good (read: near invulnerable to characters of that level).

AustontheGreat1
2010-07-03, 04:03 PM
Ok, what would you suggest as an appropriate way to judge power?

I wanted to use CR because I wanted to be able to mix and match templates on summoned creatures as well.

lesser_minion
2010-07-03, 05:57 PM
If you go down this route, then I'd suggest:

Reducing the number of spells to: Monster Summoning, Lesser; Monster Summoning; and Monster Summoning, Greater. Basing the access to creatures on CL and the creature's basic ECL (the DM will have to ad-lib things for creatures that aren't playable, but many of those should be banned wholesale anyway).


That would hopefully curb the worst abuses you're likely to see, but remember that being able to cherry-pick through every splatbook is one of the key reasons why polymorph is broken.

As Milskadasith pointed out, this would make for a ridiculously versatile spell -- if you're conservative in handing out level equivalents, then you might get away with it, but it'll be a lot of work.

Very few creatures were actually given SC equivalents -- if they had, then this is probably the approach they'd have used all along.

Oslecamo
2010-07-03, 06:05 PM
Ok, what would you suggest as an appropriate way to judge power?


CR isn't perfect, but it's still the best thing we have available to judge a monster's power, unless you do it on a case by case basis.

However, like already mentioned, allowing you to summon any

Mind you, the MMs do sometimes allow you to add some of the new monsters to summon monsters. It's just assumed that the other monsters aren't suitable for summon monster power and/or fluff wise.

Because like already pointed out, being able to cherry pick any monster you want would make summon monster one of the top spells of all.

AustontheGreat1
2010-07-03, 06:11 PM
So what I'm getting is that this just isn't really good idea. I understand why. It's just something I've been pondering for awhile. Isn't my first bad idea, won't be the last. Life goes on. :smallsmile:

lesser_minion
2010-07-03, 06:12 PM
CBecause like already pointed out, being able to cherry pick any monster you want would make summon monster one of the top spells of all.

Especially considering that all of the polymorph downsides don't apply -- summoning a monster doesn't wipe out all of your class features and spellcasting, for example.

Oslecamo
2010-07-03, 06:24 PM
Especially considering that all of the polymorph downsides don't apply -- summoning a monster doesn't wipe out all of your class features and spellcasting, for example.

Actualy, polymorph doesn't remove your class features at all. A polymorphed barbarian can still rage and stuff.

The spellcasting is harder, but as long as your new form has hands and it can speak, you can still cast spells.:smalleek:

It isn't considered one of the most broken spells out there for nothing.

AustontheGreat1:Well, if you're willing to work for it, one idea that could work would be expanding summon undead from Libris Mortis. Like summon construct, summon insect, summon catgirl, etc, etc, each spell with it's own thematic list of monsters.

AustontheGreat1
2010-07-03, 06:36 PM
Well, if you're willing to work for it, one idea that could work would be expanding summon undead from Libris Mortis. Like summon construct, summon insect, summon catgirl, etc, etc, each spell with it's own thematic list of monsters.

Well your still left with the same basic problem. It was the list I was trying to get away from. Creating dozens of specialized lists would still be unsatisfactory. But, I see the problem with being able to summon any monster ever written up, now. I almost never consider how something can be abused when I think it up. I guess I just don't have that sort of mindset.

lesser_minion
2010-07-03, 06:46 PM
Actualy, polymorph doesn't remove your class features at all. A polymorphed barbarian can still rage and stuff.

The spellcasting is harder, but as long as your new form has hands and it can speak, you can still cast spells.:smalleek:

Actually, per RC, you explicitly lose all of your existing abilities, including class features. The only thing you keep is your current hitpoint total.

We spent a while on the IRC laughing at the whole "wizards can polymorph into another spellcasting monster" claim, when the nastiest spellcasting monster you can turn into and still gain spellcasting casts as a 9th level wizard... meaning that you usually need to be a 15th-level wizard in order to actually benefit.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-03, 10:05 PM
If the whole issue is wanting to add monsters from new splatbooks, you could simply rule that each time you get a new level of spells you can trade out 2 nontemplated creatures already on the list for creatures with lower or equal CR and HD or trade out 1 templated creature for the same creature with a different template of lower or equal CR and LA adjustment. That gives you some flexibility without making summon monster a godly spell; it prevents you from taking advantage of wonky CR monsters like the adamantine horror; and it allows you to work with templates without getting too crazy. Plus, it works well for a dedicated summoner more attractive, because the longer you know a SM spell the more creatures you can trade out.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-03, 10:31 PM
A few splat books do add additional summoned creatures and like
PairO'Dice suggests you have to give up an existing monster on the list. [or it says which one you give up]

You could look to the psionic power Astral Construct, which is kind of build a monster-work shop. A higher level construct has more HD and higher stats but you pick from menus for any special abilities.

Vaynor
2010-07-03, 10:31 PM
Maybe introduce spells that are themed, like "Summon Monster <spell level> (Aquatic)" and the like. Just go through the monster manuals and slot creatures into categories. This way the spell wouldn't be too versatile but still allow casters to utilize new monsters.

AustontheGreat1
2010-07-03, 10:38 PM
This may sound lame, but I wasn't really expecting to have to work at making this work. (compiling lists of creatures, redesigning the whole spell, create additional spells, etc...) I Thought that we could just use the system that was created to assign power level, unfortunately, the general consensus is that this system doesn't work. :smallamused:

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-03, 10:42 PM
This may sound lame, but I wasn't really expecting to have to work at making this work. (compiling lists of creatures, redesigning the whole spell, create additional spells, etc...) I Thought that we could just use the system that was created to assign power level, unfortunately, the general consensus is that this system doesn't work. :smallamused:

That's why I made my suggestion--the change is a single sentence explaining the swap, and it's still open to any creatures you want, there are just more limits on which ones you can use. Yeah, CR is a bad system, but not so bad that you can't use it for summon monster (since the lists were composed around a given CR anyway), but limiting by HD serves as a sanity check of sorts.

AustontheGreat1
2010-07-03, 10:45 PM
That's why I made my suggestion--the change is a single sentence explaining the swap, and it's still open to any creatures you want, there are just more limits on which ones you can use. Yeah, CR is a bad system, but not so bad that you can't use it for summon monster (since the lists were composed around a given CR anyway), but limiting by HD serves as a sanity check of sorts.

And I appreciate your suggestion, rest assured. Thank you. And thank you to everyone else who tried to help. That option seems like the best fit for what I was going for, I'm going to run it past my DM and see what he thinks.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-03, 10:58 PM
Its for the same reason ECL doesn't match CR. The power and usefulness of an ability in the hands of a DM is very different then say a PC.

For a good core example we have the Spectre, its a lowly CR 7, however it is an incorporeal creature which means many monsters will be unable to fight it directly. It does however deal two negative levels per hit.

Edit: So yeah go for the swap option, unearthed arcana has some theme summon list but they don't look all that good.

DracoDei
2010-07-03, 11:20 PM
I agree that figuring out the lists is very difficult... I don't know that making the lists longer really makes the spell that much more powerful, although I GUESS it does... one concept is that instead of SWAPPING, you can ADD things by taking the spell AGAIN... basically it takes up twice as many pages in your book (and requires another spellcraft roll), takes up two "spells known" slots for a sorcerer, etc. but now has twice as many options... and then x3 and etc. That makes it at least a bit of an investment, but still gives you versatility in return for it.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 04:07 AM
Actually, per RC, you explicitly lose all of your existing abilities, including class features. The only thing you keep is your current hitpoint total.


By "RC" do you mean rules compendium? So polymorph finally got a proper nerf bat in there? Heh, if yes I may actualy get the book just for that.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 04:16 AM
By "RC" do you mean rules compendium? So polymorph finally got a proper nerf bat in there? Heh, if yes I may actualy get the book just for that.

I actually think he may be remembering baleful polymorphs entry, I'll check the book in the morning and get back to ya.

Volthawk
2010-07-04, 04:21 AM
Maybe this will interest you. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/summonMonsterVariants.htm)

lesser_minion
2010-07-04, 05:04 AM
This may sound lame, but I wasn't really expecting to have to work at making this work. (compiling lists of creatures, redesigning the whole spell, create additional spells, etc...) I Thought that we could just use the system that was created to assign power level, unfortunately, the general consensus is that this system doesn't work. :smallamused:

With a large number of caveats:

CR judges the creature's worth as a challenge. It doesn't tell you how suitable the monster is as an ally of the PCs, or under the control of the PCs. Look at LA or SCE for that. CRs were initially assigned by extensive playtesting. Those values were eyeballed in 3.5 Over time, the power level of the game grew, as more and more ways to optimise were discovered.



By "RC" do you mean rules compendium? So polymorph finally got a proper nerf bat in there? Heh, if yes I may actualy get the book just for that.

Yes.

To a point. I'm pretty sure you can still break the revised version, but you don't get to keep your original abilities any more, so some of the abuses are gone.

Also, bizarrely enough, wild shape was buffed back to pre-errata levels (it now heals you, and your hitpoints change as a result of your new ability scores). :smallfurious:

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 05:08 AM
lesser_minion:One of my friends had rules compendium, and the only "polymorph" spells revised are balefull polymorph wich indeeds removes your all class features, but already did so before, and shapechange. Polymorph itself however is still unchanged and thus allows you to keep most of your class features, including spellcasting.

lesser_minion
2010-07-04, 05:15 AM
lesser_minion:One of my friends had rules compendium, and the only "polymorph" spells revised are balefull polymorph wich indeeds removes your all class features, but already did so before, and shapechange. Polymorph itself however is still unchanged and thus allows you to keep most of your class features, including spellcasting.

It looks like an oversight -- they did note it as a spell they were changing in that section, it just didn't get done.

Looking over it, it does gain the polymorph subschool, but because they didn't reprint the rules text, :smallfurious:.

Oslecamo
2010-07-04, 05:22 AM
You're right, but it's an oversight -- the "Revised Spells" section explains that several spells have changed significantly, and lists polymorph as one of them.


No, it mentions several spells that allow te character to change shape, including polymorph, baleful poly, shapechange, animal shapes and alter self and then it says some of them have changed, and then explicitly says that the changed ones are presented on that section. Polymorph isn't among the "some" changed, it's just mentioned as another spell that allows you to change shape but they didn't think it was worth rewriting.

ericgrau
2010-07-04, 07:33 PM
While CR may guess at a monster's effectiveness in combat, a monster's use as utility or even special combat tricks may be completely different. I think we can solve this by killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Generally summons slow down the game unless you have them pre-statted out. As long as you're statting them out, you might as well run them by the DM at the same time. Generally, for combat purposes, I think CR = spell level - 1. Summon nature's ally is CR = spell level. You may want to check a few existing monsters to make sure. The DM can use that as a baseline and then check for special tricks so he can adjust accordingly for each monster.

AustontheGreat1
2010-07-04, 08:02 PM
in the OP a said spell level +2 because of the elder elementals which are CR 11 on the Summon monster IX, I believe.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-04, 09:12 PM
No, it mentions several spells that allow te character to change shape, including polymorph, baleful poly, shapechange, animal shapes and alter self and then it says some of them have changed, and then explicitly says that the changed ones are presented on that section. Polymorph isn't among the "some" changed, it's just mentioned as another spell that allows you to change shape but they didn't think it was worth rewriting.

Check page 122, it has a more universal change for polymorph in general.

lesser_minion
2010-07-05, 06:14 AM
Check page 122, it has a more universal change for polymorph in general.

Yes, but follows it with (paraphrased) "alter self and polymorph are considered to be part of the polymorph subschool, but the original rules text overrides the improvements".

That's the issue.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-05, 10:52 AM
Yes, but follows it with (paraphrased) "alter self and polymorph are considered to be part of the polymorph subschool, but the original rules text overrides the improvements".

That's the issue.

No its not an issue, unless your assuming the spells say something they aren't.
What it actually says is the spell text takes priority over the rules of the spellschool which isn't anything knew specific trumps general, in general.

Alright the new subschool rule states you lose your class features when polymorphed, period. That's the default rule unless the spell says otherwise

The spell polymorph doesn't say you retain your class features, so you don't under the new subschool rules.

The spell text actually has to say something to override the subschool rules like "you retain your class features" but it doesn't so you don't

lesser_minion
2010-07-05, 11:03 AM
No its not an issue, unless your assuming the spells say something they aren't.

I'm not assuming that at all. The spells explicitly do let you keep your class features.

Alter Self explicitly lets you keep your class features, and polymorph explicitly works like Alter Self except where otherwise noted.

The relevant text:


This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature


You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).

You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-05, 11:13 AM
I'm not assuming that at all. The spells explicitly do let you keep your class features.

Alter Self explicitly lets you keep your class features, and polymorph explicitly works like Alter Self except where otherwise noted.

The relevant text:

No it doesn't it says you keep the extraordinary abilities, which leaves a lot of class abilities out the window. Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics.

Spellcasting is magical and thus can't be an extraordinary ability. So because alter-self doesn't say you keep all class features you lose them under the new polymorph subschool rules.

Now I know you[or someone] is going to say what about this line

You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form,
Well normal form is your base race abilities, the line about extraordinary attacks and qualities, says you keep the ones from class but lose the ones from your normal form.

lesser_minion
2010-07-05, 12:06 PM
Now I know you[or someone] is going to say what about this line

Well normal form is your base race abilities

No, it's everything available to your normal form. Not just racial abilities (which are actually the only supernatural abilities you're likely to lose).

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-05, 12:18 PM
No, it's everything available to your normal form. Not just racial abilities (which are actually the only supernatural abilities you're likely to lose).

Where's your response to the rest of my post?
Alterself states you "You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels" it does not say magical, supernatural or spell-like abilities derived from class are kept.

This means using the new subschool rules their gone, and plenty of of class features are not extraordinary abilities, like spellcasting which is excluded by the virtue of being magic.

lesser_minion
2010-07-05, 12:33 PM
Where's your response to the rest of my post?
Alterself states you "You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels" it does not say magical, supernatural or spell-like abilities derived from class are kept.

Why do I need one?

You already know that that line is all I need.

You keep spellcasting because only extraordinary abilities, abilities that require a body part that you no longer have, and abilities that come from a previous casting of a shape changing spell are lost.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-05, 11:00 PM
Why do I need one?

You already know that that line is all I need.

You keep spellcasting because only extraordinary abilities, abilities that require a body part that you no longer have, and abilities that come from a previous casting of a shape changing spell are lost.

So you basically ignore the Rules Compendium that says class features are lost by default in the polymorph subschool. Taking that rule means the only class features retained are the ones specified in the spells description.

The change in the polymorph subschool means the spell polymorph or alterself would have to say you keep all class features for you to keep all class features. So until you bring forth the line that says all class features are retained, Only Ex. class features are kept.

lesser_minion
2010-07-06, 05:58 AM
So you basically ignore the Rules Compendium that says class features are lost by default in the polymorph subschool. Taking that rule means the only class features retained are the ones specified in the spells description.
.

No, I don't. I read the line saying that the text of the spells overrides the subschool and the lines explaining which class features you keep.

There is no line saying that you keep all class features because you keep all supernatural or spell-like abilities no matter what.

If it's a supernatural ability and you had it in your normal form, you keep it, whether it's a class feature or not. The same goes for spell-like abilities.

The default for [polymorph] spells is that you lose all existing abilities. All of your class features are either extraordinary -- in which case they fall under the 'you keep extraordinary class features' line of polymorph; or not -- in which case they fall under 'you keep supernatural and spell-like abilities of your normal form'.

Either way, you get to retain your class features.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-07-06, 11:52 AM
No, I don't. I read the line saying that the text of the spells overrides the subschool and the lines explaining which class features you keep.

There is no line saying that you keep all class features because you keep all supernatural or spell-like abilities no matter what.

If it's a supernatural ability and you had it in your normal form, you keep it, whether it's a class feature or not. The same goes for spell-like abilities.

The default for [polymorph] spells is that you lose all existing abilities. All of your class features are either extraordinary -- in which case they fall under the 'you keep extraordinary class features' line of polymorph; or not -- in which case they fall under 'you keep supernatural and spell-like abilities of your normal form'.

Either way, you get to retain your class features.

I still believe your still making false assumption that normal form is meant to include class levels and not racial abilities, that aside.

Not all class features are extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like, no where is that said. If its not marked with (Ex), (Su), or (Sp) its not any of those things. And guess what isn't marked as any of those class based spell casting.

lesser_minion
2010-07-06, 12:29 PM
I still believe your still making false assumption that normal form is meant to include class levels and not racial abilities, that aside.

Not all class features are extraordinary, supernatural or spell-like, no where is that said. If its not marked with (Ex), (Su), or (Sp) its not any of those things. And guess what isn't marked as any of those class based spell casting.

I'm pretty sure most people consider spellcasting to be spell-like, since spell like abilities follow all of the rules for spellcasting except where otherwise stated.

That aside, most polymorphs remove spellcasting because you don't have hands any more.

Surgo
2010-07-06, 01:30 PM
To get back on topic, I was also interested in creating a better system. And like you, I wanted it based on CR because that is the best judge of a monster's power.

The problem I came up with was coming up with a clean mathematical formula that worked at every level and didn't require any math higher than doubling or addition/subtraction.

My first idea was CR <= (spell level * 2 - 4). This seems okay at the higher end of things, but doesn't really work out well with Summon Monster 1 (how do you use this at level 1? not that anyone uses summon monster as written at level 1, but...), or really Summon Monster 2 either.

That was actually my only idea. I'm not sure if there's a way to do it that works at every level, and I'm not willing to make it work at the high at expense of the low.