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Claudius Maximus
2010-07-05, 04:02 PM
I might be dealing with extreme ranges in a campaign soon, and I'm kind of off-put by the fact that nobody in D&D can see beyond about 600 feet without serious spot optimization.

Does anybody have any ideas for a revised range penalty system for Spot checks?

Ranos
2010-07-05, 04:05 PM
I might be dealing with extreme ranges in a campaign soon, and I'm kind of off-put by the fact that nobody in D&D can see beyond about 600 feet without serious spot optimization.

Does anybody have any ideas for a revised range penalty system for Spot checks?


The Spot skill is used primarily to detect characters or creatures who are hiding
Don't use Spot for things that are in plain sight.

Edit : And no goddamit, the sun is not hiding.

Claudius Maximus
2010-07-05, 04:08 PM
Sometimes a creature isnít intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.

Let's just assume that the DM in question would consider extreme range good enough to force a check in some circumstances.

PersonMan
2010-07-05, 04:21 PM
Let's just assume that the DM in question would consider extreme range good enough to force a check in some circumstances.

Probably a fairly difficult DC to spot it, maybe with 1/4 distance penalties, and one with full distance penalties to identify it. It's much easier to see a spot on the horizon than it is to know that it's a bird.

Siosilvar
2010-07-05, 04:22 PM
{table=head]{colsp=2}Lighting Modifiers
Daylight|One-third normal penalty
Bright Light|One-half normal penalty
Darkness|Twice normal penalty[/table]

Halve the penalty again in open terrain, half again in flat (outdoor) terrain.

Taking 10 in broad daylight on a plain, your line of sight is around a quarter mile for a Medium object "in plain sight".

In a completely dark cave, you can see around 50 feet.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-05, 04:59 PM
I might be dealing with extreme ranges in a campaign soon, and I'm kind of off-put by the fact that nobody in D&D can see beyond about 600 feet without serious spot optimization.

Does anybody have any ideas for a revised range penalty system for Spot checks?

Spot is to compete with hiding and to detect minutia. It's pretty obvious that you CAN see someone on the other side of the bridge. You just won't be able to tell who he is until you come close enough, and you won't see him if he hides at that distance.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-07-05, 06:55 PM
Spot is to compete with hiding and to detect minutia.
Exactly. You donít have to make a check to notice things that are right in front of you and immediately obvious. It is going to take some serious Spot optimization to notice people hiding from you or other tiny details at 600 ft. What kind of detail can you see at 600 ft?

Cieyrin
2010-07-05, 07:35 PM
{table=head]{colsp=2}Lighting Modifiers
Daylight|One-third normal penalty
Bright Light|One-half normal penalty
Darkness|Twice normal penalty[/table]

Halve the penalty again in open terrain, half again in flat (outdoor) terrain.

Taking 10 in broad daylight on a plain, your line of sight is around a quarter mile for a Medium object "in plain sight".

In a completely dark cave, you can see around 50 feet.

Looks fairly good, though I think we should base it off of a 'Take 0', as it were, as it typically takes special features to auto-get Taking 10, like Quick Reconnoiter and so on. Take 10 on both Hide and Spot and apply bonii as necessary. Same for Listen and Move Silently, as them Boots of Elvenkind don't just stop working b/c you're not actively trying to be quiet.

mucat
2010-07-05, 08:27 PM
In cases where the rules fail, just base it off real-world common sense.

Something almost anyone would notice: DC 5.

Something the average person may or may not notice, but a trained professional (who I am giving Spot +5) almost certainly would: DC 10.

Something an average person would probably miss; the professional might miss it too: DC 15

Average person almost certainly misses it. The professional is likely to miss it too; this is why you have hightly specialized professionals (Spot +10) on the payroll: DC 20

...and so on...

So yeah, the sun is DC 1 or so.

Harperfan7
2010-07-07, 01:37 PM
You have to have cover and concealment to hide, not just be standing there, and unless you are in the plains, mountains, or desert or something, you probably just cannot see 600ft. in the first place.

The sun has no cover (except an night, during eclipses, and when its cloudy), has a -eleventy billion size penalty, and it is a light source, there is no DC to find the sun. Period.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-07, 01:57 PM
You have to have cover and concealment to hide, not just be standing there
Who says anyone's hiding?
Sometimes a creature isnít intentionally hiding but is still difficult to see, so a successful Spot check is necessary to notice it.
{table=head] Difficulty (DC) | Example (Skill Used)
Very easy (0) | Notice something large in plain sight (Spot)[/table]

ericgrau
2010-07-07, 05:24 PM
Let's just assume that the DM in question would consider extreme range good enough to force a check in some circumstances.

The target still isn't hiding if it's in plain sight. The base DC is 0 plus range modifiers, because it's a DC 0 check to see something in plain sight. Regardless of the creature's hide modifier.

By RAW range penalties are already halved in mountainous areas due to how clear it is. I'd use the same in any other wide open area. Otherwise random objects in terrain with any features at all would cause the normal penalties.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-07, 10:51 PM
The target still isn't hiding if it's in plain sight. The base DC is 0 plus range modifiers, because it's a DC 0 check to see something in plain sight.
It's only DC 0 to see a Large target in plain sight, within 10'. Each size step changes the DC opposing Spot by +/- 4, so it's DC 4 to see a Medium target within 10'.