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View Full Version : Designing a Half-Gestalt System (And no, its got nuthin' to do with tiers...)



Roc Ness
2010-07-05, 10:55 PM
Okay, I have an idea about a gestalt system. It could be a brilliant gestalt system, but I dunno yet. :smalltongue:

Basically, the idea is to gestalt one normal gestalt side with another side consisting of a single 10-level PRC, the PRC gaining a level at every odd level. So a sample build could be:
Ranger 1//Dervish 1
Ranger 2//Dervish 1
Ranger 2/Scout 1//Dervish 2
Ranger 2/Scout 2//Dervish 2
Ranger 2/Scout 3//Dervish 3
Ranger 2/Scout 4//Dervish 3
And so forth…

Theoretically, I think it would work well. You get a nice strong PRC ability in the lower levels (in this case Dervish Dance), and receive its capstone abilities at a higher level. Like in any gestalt, you get the greater BAB, Save or HD of your gestalt combination. So for example, in the above example the character would have a higher than average Will save, BAB and HP thanks to its gestalted Dervish levels. In addition, you are free to take other PRCs on the standard side on the same level that you gain a level from the 10-level PRC side.

However, practically there would be a lot of problems that need sorting out, particularly at the lower levels. Some PRCs would be an obviously overpowered choice (Sublime Chord, 4th level spells at first level doesn’t work :smallannoyed:), while other PRCs may become useless due to a lack of a central higher level ability (I was going to make an example of the Swiftblade, but at least it still has some class features usable without Haste. Probably a better example out there somewhere). And then there are some PRC abilities that need to be given special rules and guidelines, like the +1 spellcasting level stuff.


So how about it? What are the playground’s opinions and suggestions regarding my inspiration? :smallbiggrin:

Roc Ness
2010-07-05, 10:57 PM
RESERVED FOR STUFF LIKE RULE/SUGGESTIONS & PRCs THAT WOULD BE BANNED/NEED SPECIFIC CHANGES

Variant Ideas:

Do away with Gestalt and simply grant certain abilities every two levels.
Create PRC base classes.

Chambers
2010-07-06, 08:39 PM
Interesting idea, but you've pretty much identified a lot of the issues. To wit:


Not having prerequisites for the Prestige Class
Higher level abilities at lower levels
Benefits that increase other benefits (+1 Caster Level, mainly)


Your example of the Dervish's Dance ability is where you should go with this. I would drop the gestalt messiness and have each character choose a Prestige Class for their character. They work out the special abilities that the character can have at lower levels without it being unbalanced. The character progresses as normal single class character and at certain level intervals gains these bonus abilities.

Example:

Zug-Zug is a Half-Orc Ranger. His Prestige Class Archetype is the Dervish. Every two levels he gains some ability from the Dervish PrC, like increased speed, special attack options with the scimitar, dervish dance, etc.

Roc Ness
2010-07-06, 08:55 PM
Okay, so they can just get special abilities every two levels... its a good idea, but I was hoping for some more rules and guidelines so that anybody who can read the rules can simply just go ahead and make their character instead of needing to negotiate a whole lot with the DM...

Chambers
2010-07-06, 09:04 PM
I don't know how well that would work. The major issue is that nearly all of the abilities prestige classes grant are keyed tied abilities that the characters won't have (The Archmage, for example).

Some general rules?

- No caster level increases (+1 Caster level)
- Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, or Supernatural abilities must not be of a higher spell level or equivalent spell level (in the case of Sp & Su) than a full caster of the character's level could cast. So no 4th level spells at 1st level.
- Abilities tied to a specific feat or ability (Power Attack or Turn Undead, for example) require the character to have the ability before granting the PrC ability.

I dunno. It's still very messy. I don't see how it's going to work without 1 on 1 customization, simply because the system wasn't designed to do this. :smallfrown:

Roc Ness
2010-07-06, 09:28 PM
Hmm. Well, either way, I doubt we have to worry about the Archmage, given the 10-level PRC thing.

Although I was thinking... with the Abilities-Tied-To-A-Specific-Other-Ability, what if we simply grant those abilities at half level, and have it stack with up to the character's character level if the character already has an equivalent ability?

So for an example with Turn Undead, a Barbarian 5//PRC requiring Turn Undead 3 would be given Turn Undead as a 3rd level cleric, while a Cleric 5//PRC RTU 3 would have 5th level Turn undead (Cleric already has 5th level Turn Undead), and a Barbarian 1/Cleric 4//PRC RTU 3 would also have 5th level Turn undead (Cleric level and PRC level stack, up to the character's character level).

And I was thinking that maybe it might be possible to waive the strictly unneeeded PRC requirements, namely the Skill Rank requirements and certain feats, like Weapon Focus, while granting certain other feats (like Power Attackm if it really is that central) as bonus feats.


I dunno. It's still very messy. I don't see how it's going to work without 1 on 1 customization, simply because the system wasn't designed to do this. :smallfrown:

Part of the challenge, innit? :smallbiggrin: I'm sure it would be incredibly easy once some of the beginning mess is cleared up.

Chambers
2010-07-06, 09:40 PM
Another issue is balance. Some PrC's are strictly better than others. Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil - I'm looking at you. :smallwink:

In the example you provided it would benefit characters more to take PrC's that have requirements that they don't meet, since that way they get the benefits for free. The Barbarian 5 gets free turn undead in addition to whatever the ability is. The Cleric 5 just gets the ability.

Another example. Frenzied Berzerker requires Power Attack and Rage. Let's say a Rogue takes that PrC Archetype. The character now gets Power Attack & Rage for free, in addition to the benefits of the Fre'zerker, while a Barbarian that took Power Attack gets no added benefit. From an optimization viewpoint it's strictly better to not qualify for the PrC.

Roc Ness
2010-07-06, 11:51 PM
Another issue is balance. Some PrC's are strictly better than others. Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil - I'm looking at you. :smallwink:

Yeah, but balance problems run rife in DnD anyway. I don't think they'd be a problem unless they get too out of hand... Besides, Mr. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil isn't invited to this 10-level PRC party. :smalltongue:


In the example you provided it would benefit characters more to take PrC's that have requirements that they don't meet, since that way they get the benefits for free. The Barbarian 5 gets free turn undead in addition to whatever the ability is. The Cleric 5 just gets the ability.

That's the same in normal gestalt: You get more benefits for choosing classes with different abilities than for chossing classes with redundant abilities. As for the Free Turn Undead: Without extra Cleric/Paladin/Etc. levels the turn undead would be pretty useless later on in the same way that a multiclass Barbarian/Cleric would have a useless Turn Undead.


Another example. Frenzied Berzerker requires Power Attack and Rage. Let's say a Rogue takes that PrC Archetype. The character now gets Power Attack & Rage for free, in addition to the benefits of the Fre'zerker, while a Barbarian that took Power Attack gets no added benefit. From an optimization viewpoint it's strictly better to not qualify for the PrC.

Unless a specific Frenzied Berserker ability requires Power Attack, I don't think that rogue should get PA for free. The fact that its a requirement doesn't exactly make it mandatory, I know there are a lot of classes with pointless feat Prereqs just there for a bit of Fluff, let the character take them. As for the Barbarian getting no additional benefit, what if we made the PerDay things stack? So the 1st Level Barbarian//Frenzied Berserker gets 2/day Rage, the 1st level Paladin//Something gets 2/day Smite Evil and the Bard//Seeker of the Song gets 2/day Bardic Music...

Chambers
2010-07-07, 01:01 AM
Here's an idea I've seen before: Play as the Prestige Class. No gestalt and no base class. Your first and subsequent levels are in the PrC.

Example:

Arcane Archer
HD: d8, 4 Skill Points a level, Craft, Hide, Listen, Knowledge Arcana, Move Silently, Spellcraft, & Spot.
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Reflex|Will|Special|Spellcasting
1|+1|+2|+2|+0|Enhance Arrow +1|Wizard 1
2|+2|+3|+3|+0|Imbue Arrow|
3|+3|+3|+3|+1|Bonus Archery Feat|Wizard 2
4|+4|+4|+4|+1|Seeker Arrow 1/day|
5|+5|+4|+4|+1|Enhance Arrow +2|Wizard 3
6|+6|+5|+5|+2|Phase Arrow 1/day|
7|+7|+5|+5|+2|Bonus Archery Feat|Wizard 4
8|+6|+6|+6|+2|Hail of Arrows 1/day|
9|+9|+6|+6|+3|Seeker Arrow 2/day|Wizard 5
10|+10|+7|+7|+3|Enhance Arrow +3|
11|+11|+7|+7|+3|Bonus Archery Feat|Wizard 6
12|+12|+8|+8|+4|Arrow of Death|
13|+13|+8|+8|+4|Phase Arrow 2/day|Wizard 7
14|+14|+9|+9|+4|Hail of Arrows 2/day|
15|+15|+9|+9|+5|Enhance Arrow +4|Wizard 8
16|+16|+10|+10|+5|Seeker Arrow 3/day|
17|+17|+10|+10|+5|Bonus Archery Feat|Wizard 9
18|+18|+11|+11|+6|Phase Arrow 3/day|
19|+19|+11|+11|+6|Hail of Arrows 3/day|Wizard 10
20|+20|+12|+12|+6|Enhance Arrow +5, Improved Arrow of Death|[/table]
Proficient with Light and Medium armor? (add some kind of Armored Mage ability)
Proficient with Simple and Martial Weapons. (Perhaps choose an exotic ranged weapon as well.)

That's just a rough example of what I mean. To make the class more interesting take other abilites from Prestige Classes that would fit, like the Order of the Bow Initiate PrC.

Zovc
2010-07-07, 01:21 AM
Here's an idea I've seen before: Play as the Prestige Class. No gestalt and no base class. Your first and subsequent levels are in the PrC.

Example:

Arcane Archer
[snip]

That's just a rough example of what I mean. To make the class more interesting take other abilites from Prestige Classes that would fit, like the Order of the Bow Initiate PrC.

The only issue I see with this is that it doesn't allow the player to combine things the way OP seems to want.

I think some of the ideas you have might be salvageable, though.

Perhaps casting-advancing classes can give you "Wizard 1" casting if you don't already have it? No, that probably wouldn't work, since it mostly will only give non-casters incentive to take casting-advancing PrCs.

Maybe you could require the player to qualify for the prestige class as soon as possible, or would that be too restrictive? The idea would, as an example, require the player to take the Dodge feat to meet a prerequisite as soon as posisble, or other things of that nature.

I think the most difficult things you will encounter are how to handle casting progression, and how to decide which BAB, Skills, HD, etc take precidence. Consolidating other level-based class features will be easy.

Roc Ness
2010-07-07, 02:36 AM
Here's an idea I've seen before: Play as the Prestige Class. No gestalt and no base class. Your first and subsequent levels are in the PrC.

Example:

[Stuff]

That's just a rough example of what I mean. To make the class more interesting take other abilites from Prestige Classes that would fit, like the Order of the Bow Initiate PrC.

...But of course by then we will basicly be revamping everything to do with PRCs, coming up with new ideas for that good hundred out there, maybe mixing and matching and sorting similar PRCs in vain to settle the workload, creating new abilities for the troubling ones, etc. I don't really think PRC base classes would actually ever really see the light of day, given that the size of the project.

Plus there are some good old abilities belonging to base classes that most PRCs don't get. :smalltongue:


The only issue I see with this is that it doesn't allow the player to combine things the way OP seems to want.

Yeah... Much of the fun in DnD comes from creating things and combining things and customising things to suit personal tastes, and then watching it play out. I want to create some rules pointing people in a new direction to be creative in, in the same way gestalt did. Just creating base classes from PRCs gives new resources to be creative with, sure, but it seems a waste when we could wring a bit more out of the already vast pool of ideas available to each person.


I think some of the ideas you have might be salvageable, though.

Definitely. :smallbiggrin:


Perhaps casting-advancing classes can give you "Wizard 1" casting if you don't already have it? No, that probably wouldn't work, since it mostly will only give non-casters incentive to take casting-advancing PrCs.

Yeah, that could work... it effectively becomes half-spellcasting, like rangers and paladins have got. And actually, it probably would not give non-casters incentive to take casting-advancing PrCs, as one 2nd level spell per day at 5th level is not a very impressive ability compared to some of the other ones available out there. However, if we make the +1 casting level stack with your standard casting levels (capped at the character level, of course, otherwise it'll be insane) it would give characters the incentive to make Dual Progression characters... issat good or bad?


Maybe you could require the player to qualify for the prestige class as soon as possible, or would that be too restrictive? The idea would, as an example, require the player to take the Dodge feat to meet a prerequisite as soon as posisble, or other things of that nature.

Nah, I think that just kills the spirit of things. I think as skill prereqs go, a character shouldn't need any. As far as feat prereqs go, a character shouldn't need them unless they are essential and the entire PRC revolves around it.

Although as an afterthought, I think the character should still have to satisfy ability/race/size prerequisites of any feats/abilities etc. So that Rogue//Frenzied Berserker won't get Power Attack, won't need to get Power Attack (unless they want to), but they still will need 13 Strength to be able to be a Frenzied Berserker. A player who otherwise needed to take Dodge to fulfil a prereq normally wouldn't need to take dodge, he'd just need 13 Dex.


I think the most difficult things you will encounter are how to handle casting progression, and how to decide which BAB, Skills, HD, etc take precidence. Consolidating other level-based class features will be easy.

Casting Progression: Definitely Difficult
BAB/Skill/HD Precedence: Just take the higher one. I did say I was trying to make a "Half-Gestalt" :smallwink:
Other Features: Yeah, probably easy. There will, off course, be occasional bumps that won't be immediately apparent. Like the Seeker of the Song, which would grant a 1/day 6d6 fire damage nuke at level one...

Zovc
2010-07-07, 09:34 AM
Yeah, that could work... it effectively becomes half-spellcasting, like rangers and paladins have got. And actually, it probably would not give non-casters incentive to take casting-advancing PrCs, as one 2nd level spell per day at 5th level is not a very impressive ability compared to some of the other ones available out there. However, if we make the +1 casting level stack with your standard casting levels (capped at the character level, of course, otherwise it'll be insane) it would give characters the incentive to make Dual Progression characters... issat good or bad?

The biggest problem is that casters have the least incentive to take casting prestige classes (unless, like you said, they're trying to dual-progress).

Roc Ness
2010-07-07, 08:23 PM
The biggest problem is that casters have the least incentive to take casting prestige classes (unless, like you said, they're trying to dual-progress).

Are you sure? The extra abilities granted by most casting PRCs can be quite welcome, especially since many annoying prerequisites the PRCs might require are quite possibly waived. And then not all casting PRCs grant 10/10 casting advancement either, so the gestalt side can mean a nifty place to put PRC without worrying about drawbacks of (:shudder:) losing caster levels.

Zovc
2010-07-07, 09:45 PM
Are you sure? The extra abilities granted by most casting PRCs can be quite welcome, especially since many annoying prerequisites the PRCs might require are quite possibly waived. And then not all casting PRCs grant 10/10 casting advancement either, so the gestalt side can mean a nifty place to put PRC without worrying about drawbacks of (:shudder:) losing caster levels.

Well, you're right. Casters might actually choose to use prestige classes that would otherwise hose their casting progression, but that still doesn't address what I'm getting at.

A Ranger//Abjurant Champion, let's say would effectively be a Ranger10//Wizard 5 with cool abilities at level 10, where as a Wizard 10//Abjurant Champion 5 would be a Wizard 10 with cool abilities, and 'staggered' improvement to their HD and BAB, depending on implementation.

Spontaneous casters would get a lot better, though, using classes like the Sand Shaper that, within a few levels, grant them many, many new spells.

Would you allow stuff like Sorcerer 10//Sand Shaper 1/other Prc 1/another Prc 1, etc?

Roc Ness
2010-07-07, 10:27 PM
Well, you're right. Casters might actually choose to use prestige classes that would otherwise hose their casting progression, but that still doesn't address what I'm getting at.

A Ranger//Abjurant Champion, let's say would effectively be a Ranger10//Wizard 5 with cool abilities at level 10, where as a Wizard 10//Abjurant Champion 5 would be a Wizard 10 with cool abilities, and 'staggered' improvement to their HD and BAB, depending on implementation.

I don't understand what you mean. Ignoring the fact that it the PRC side should only have 10-level PRCs (so no Archmage, Abj Champ, Iot7FV, Exotic Weapon Master, Prestige Class Paladin, etc), I don't see how this gives or takes incentive. If a meleer like a ranger takes a casting PRC archetype, he/she gains some new, minor abilities, and becomes a gish character. On the other hand, if a caster takes a casting PRC archetype, his/her original abilities are augmented/improved, and he/she becomes a better caster. Its all taste, really. That ranger might like some minor magic abilities and a good AC boost, or he might prefer to take another PRC that grants Sneak Attack.


Spontaneous casters would get a lot better, though, using classes like the Sand Shaper that, within a few levels, grant them many, many new spells.

Would you allow stuff like Sorcerer 10//Sand Shaper 1/other Prc 1/another Prc 1, etc?

Not sure about that. Somebody is bound to decide to do a something like a mindbender dip.