Warforged and Natural attacks [3.5]

[AlphariusOmegon]

So, I'm looking at making a Warforged that uses just its natural attacks. The Second Slam Feat from page 120 of Races of Eberron is an obvious choice.

The Improved Natural Attack from page 55 of the Eberron Campaign Setting looks to be another good choice. Every time I take that feat my Slam attack is treated as though I were one size larger. First time I take it my Slam goes from 1d4 to 1d6. Next time is 1d6 to 1d8, then from 1d8 to 2d6 and so on until I'm hitting for 12d6.

Now is were I am running into a problem. The Battlefist from page 268 of the Eberron Campaign Setting: "A battlefist increases the damage dealt by the character's natural slam attack to 1d8 points of bludgeoning and
piercing damage (assuming a Medium character)."

How do the Improved Natural Attack feat and the Battlefist work together, if at all?

[FelixG]

Not being an expert...i would assume, that you apply the battlefist first, then you can work up from there with the improved natural attacks

[Snake-Aes]

So, I'm looking at making a Warforged that uses just its natural attacks. The Second Slam Feat from page 120 of Races of Eberron is an obvious choice.

The Improved Natural Attack from page 55 of the Eberron Campaign Setting looks to be another good choice. Every time I take that feat my Slam attack is treated as though I were one size larger. First time I take it my Slam goes from 1d4 to 1d6. Next time is 1d6 to 1d8, then from 1d8 to 2d6 and so on until I'm hitting for 12d6.

Now is were I am running into a problem. The Battlefist from page 268 of the Eberron Campaign Setting: "A battlefist increases the damage dealt by the character's natural slam attack to 1d8 points of bludgeoning and
piercing damage (assuming a Medium character)."

How do the Improved Natural Attack feat and the Battlefist work together, if at all?

Enlarge the damage dice by your natural size, then by the modified size. 1d8 changes to 2d6, for example.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm
Improved natural attack:

Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.

[AlphariusOmegon]

Wow, you guys are really on top of this. Thanks a lot, it helps to get a second and third opinion.

[ProfMoriarty]

The Improved Natural Attack from page 55 of the Eberron Campaign Setting looks to be another good choice. Every time I take that feat my Slam attack is treated as though I were one size larger. First time I take it my Slam goes from 1d4 to 1d6. Next time is 1d6 to 1d8, then from 1d8 to 2d6 and so on until I'm hitting for 12d6.

You can't take improved natural attack feat twice for the same natural weapon.

[FelixG]

Ah so you cant stack it to get up to 12d6 with a natural attack, as it can only be applied once to the slam

[mabriss lethe]

well, there are grafts that can grant you claw attacks

Snap Kick might be a nice addition.

Warforged also qualify for the Soul Eater PrC from BoVD. (combine with things like Improved Energy Drain for all sorts of shenanigans.)

[dextercorvia]

It's also not really worth it. Unless you have a base damage in the Xd6/Yd8 range, You are getting between 1 and 2 extra damage per attack on average. At level one that's okay, but by level 5 - meh.

You are probably better off going PsyWarrior and getting Expansion.

[Fax Celestis]

Doesn't Warforged Juggernaut get damage increases to its slam attack? You could mix it with that. Barbarian/Warforged Juggernaut with the feats mentioned could be pretty cool.

[Jorda75]

I had a build once for just this type of character, but the details escape me now. You may want to try what I did and adjust/create a PRC that focuses on natural attacks specifically, I don't recall finding one in any WOTC released books but I may be mistaken.

[Saya]

The battlefist increases more if you're a monk or use a monk-like progression IIRC, treating you as a one size larger monk by default.

Not sure if you can apply Improved Nat Attack to unarmed though...

[Marriclay]

I had a build once for just this type of character, but the details escape me now. You may want to try what I did and adjust/create a PRC that focuses on natural attacks specifically, I don't recall finding one in any WOTC released books but I may be mistaken.

In that case the best bet is to get an amulet of natural attacks (I think that's what it's called...) from savage species. it's a great amount cheaper than an amulet of mighty fists and you can choose different enchantments (Like vorpal, or brilliant energy) Every wanted Flaming Hands for your slam? So did I.

Also, be sure to get the Second Slam feat from races of eberron at level 6. Itterative attacks when you can get them are massive.

[Fax Celestis]

The battlefist increases more if you're a monk or use a monk-like progression IIRC, treating you as a one size larger monk by default.

Uh, does it explicitly say that? Natural attacks aren't monk weapons.

[NEO|Phyte]

Uh, does it explicitly say that? Natural attacks aren't monk weapons.

Monks get a size increase on their unarmed strike if they use a battlefist. They can also enchant the battlefist, making them pretty good monks.

[Keld Denar]

Also, since we all know that Monks invest a ton in UMD to use their partially charged wands, a non-Warforged Monk can UMD a Battlefist to emulate the Warforged race to attach the Battlefist. I'm not sure the EXACT biochemistery to make it work, but I'm guessing it would look something like this:
http://merciarising.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/army_of_darkness-ash-chainsaw.jpg

Also, there is a PrC floating around from The Demented One, IIRC, specifically for Warforged using Iron Heart or Stone Dragon manevuers that gives you several options to augement your Adamantine Body feature and your natural slam attack, and one of the options is a size increase to your slam damage.

On top of that, there is a Wiz/Sorc spell in Races of the Dragon called Greater Mighty Wallop. It augements a bludgeoning weapon by 1 size catagory per 4 CLs. At CL20, thats 5 size increases, a pretty potent step up in damage.

1d8 Battlefist goes up to 2d6 with INA, then GMWallop makes it 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6. Tack on a magical size boost (Expansion or Alter Self or Polymorph) and you get 16d6 easy.

[Wings of Peace]

well, there are grafts that can grant you claw attacks

Snap Kick might be a nice addition.

Warforged also qualify for the Soul Eater PrC from BoVD. (combine with things like Improved Energy Drain for all sorts of shenanigans.)

Soul Eater also goes well with Stormguard Warrior: Combat Rhythm :smallwink:

[Fax Celestis]

Also, since we all know that Monks invest a ton in UMD to use their partially charged wands, a non-Warforged Monk can UMD a Battlefist to emulate the Warforged race to attach the Battlefist. I'm not sure the EXACT biochemistery to make it work, but I'm guessing it would look something like this:

Why bother? Take one level of Renegade Mastermaker.

[Greenish]

Why bother? Take one level of Renegade Mastermaker.But then you can never take monk levels again! (Oh woe!)

[Keld Denar]

Why bother? Take one level of Renegade Mastermaker.

Because Renegade Mastermaker doesn't have the [Epic Chin] class feature.

Also, because I like the snark inherant in monks with UMD and partially charged wands...if you have to explain it, its not funny anymore...:smallmad:

[Fax Celestis]

But then you can never take monk levels again! (Oh woe!)

...only if your DM is a total jerk and follows the book completely. There's no reason monks should carry a special multiclass restriction other than that WotC seems to think that monks aren't shafted enough already.

"How could we possibly make this class worse?" said Monte Cook.

"I've got it! We'll add an arbitrary multiclass restriction to represent loyalty to monasticism that is present nowhere else in the class!" replied Skip Williams.

"GENIUS!" cried Monte Cook, "and I know how to make it worse: let's make Flurry of Blows a full-attack action."

Skip smiled wryly and relplied, "I knew there was a reason I loved you." He moved closer to Monte, putting his arms around him and tousling his hair. "Now come here and kiss me, you fool."







<_<
>_>

[Marriclay]

But then you can never take monk levels again! (Oh woe!)

Monastic training obviates this silly rule.

...only if your DM is a total jerk and follows the book completely. There's no reason monks should carry a special multiclass restriction other than that WotC seems to think that monks aren't shafted enough already.

"How could we possibly make this class worse?" said Monte Cook.

"I've got it! We'll add an arbitrary multiclass restriction to represent loyalty to monasticism that is present nowhere else in the class!" replied Skip Williams.

"GENIUS!" cried Monte Cook, "and I know how to make it worse: let's make Flurry of Blows a full-attack action."

Skip smiled wryly and relplied, "I knew there was a reason I loved you." He moved closer to Monte, putting his arms around him and tousling his hair. "Now come here and kiss me, you fool."







<_<
>_>
...

...

... :smalleek:

[Keld Denar]

Wow Fax...just wow.

Really? D&D Dev slash fic? I mean, what they did in game design is unexcusable, but do they really deserve that?

Excuse my while I go try to find a cure for SAN loss...

[Optimystik]

Well, it would explain why the ToB errata is taking so long to finish.

[Partysan]

Fax, if I'd not already know that you're a god, I'd believe in it now.

[Fawsto]

...only if your DM is a total jerk and follows the book completely. There's no reason monks should carry a special multiclass restriction other than that WotC seems to think that monks aren't shafted enough already.

"How could we possibly make this class worse?" said Monte Cook.

"I've got it! We'll add an arbitrary multiclass restriction to represent loyalty to monasticism that is present nowhere else in the class!" replied Skip Williams.

"GENIUS!" cried Monte Cook, "and I know how to make it worse: let's make Flurry of Blows a full-attack action."

Skip smiled wryly and relplied, "I knew there was a reason I loved you." He moved closer to Monte, putting his arms around him and tousling his hair. "Now come here and kiss me, you fool."







<_<
>_>


Seriously, stored for when I need to laugh my self to death again!

[Godskook]

The attack routine:

Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d4+4)
Full attack: Claw +8 melee (1d4+4) and 3 Claws +6 melee (1d4+2) and Bite +5 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +5 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +5 melee (1d8+1)

Raging:
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+6)
Full attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+6) and 3 Claws +8 melee (1d4+3) and Bite +7 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +7 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +7 melee (1d8+2)

Charging Pounce:
Full attack: Claw +10 melee (1d4+4) and 3 Claws +8 melee (1d4+2) and Bite +7 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +7 melee (1d6+1) and Tail +7 melee (1d8+1)

Raging Charging Pounce:
Full attack: Claw +12 melee (1d4+6) and 3 Claws +10 melee (1d4+3) and Bite +9 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +9 melee (1d6+2) and Tail +9 melee (1d8+2)

The build:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=201155

However, at this point, you want to start tacking on sources of damage, since while you have 7 natural attacks, you have little recourse against DR. I suggest 2 levels of fighter, 1 now, then immediately enter Totem Rager, and one later, to snag Shock Trooper(use a level-up feat on whichever feat you didn't snatch with fighter levels). Combine with a source of an Enhancement bonus to damage(A druid with that can de-personalize Superior Magic Fang, or chain Greater MF does it *really* cheaply)

:smallfrown:

[Darrin]

The battlefist increases more if you're a monk or use a monk-like progression IIRC, treating you as a one size larger monk by default.


The wording is a bit wonky and difficult to parse, actually:

"A warforged monk who uses a battlefist deals increased unarmed damage as though the character were one size larger than actual, and he can add the battle fist’s enhancement bonus to his unarmed attack and damage rolls."

There is no clarification on how the monk "uses" the battlefist. Is it still a slam attack, or is it a monk's unarmed strike? Is the battlefist considered a special monk weapon? Is it a light weapon or one-handed weapon? Can the monk flurry with it? Can he still attack with it if both hands are bound/occupied with something else?



Not sure if you can apply Improved Nat Attack to unarmed though...

To a monk's unarmed strike, yes. To a non-monk's unarmed strike (which does not directly benefit from the dual manufactured/natural weapon clause defined in the monk's class abilities), then it's not all that clear.

[Fouredged Sword]

There is rapid strike and it's followup that can get you a fourth slam per round as a natural attack. Two levels of totemest can get you 4 claws. There is a helm that gives you a gore attack and dip cleric 1 for the domain that gives you a bite. Take a level of monk, add snapkick. Get improved Multiattack

Now you have an attack routine that looks like this
slam, slam, slam, slam, claw, claw, claw, claw, gore, bite, unarmed strike, unarmed strike, unarmed strike.

All at BaB-4

Grab levels of souleater.
Laugh as you can drain 13 levels per round.
- take the feat that gives you +1 to hit per level drained. (liber mortis I think)
- laugh even harder.

[Keld Denar]

Rapid Strike is pretty good, but its got some wonky racial reqs. Humanoids and Monsterous Humanoids don't qualify.

Types that qualify include: Aberration, Dragon, Elemental, Magical Beast, or Plant.

Of those, only Aberration and Dragon are easy to get. Plant requires at least a +3 LA or such (Woodling?), Magical Beasts typically don't make good characters, and I don't think I've EVER seen something that gives you the Elemental type.

[Fouredged Sword]

It is the capstone of a few classes, but that doesn't help much.

[Amphetryon]

In before Incarnum and Psy-Forged? Really? :smallfrown:

[Keld Denar]

Not (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8862908&postcount=8) Quite (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8864041&postcount=26)...