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Exthalion
2010-07-08, 10:18 AM
Question, has anyone taken a look at this class who can tell me weather it is a good idea?

I read it and see three things ultimately: Free metamagic, obscene caster level, no high level spell/power access.

Now, I very much like the idea of the first two, but the third could be a deal breaker.

Can anyone tell me if I am missing something, or if there is someway around that problem that doesn't require epic levels? Or if perhaps those two are so good as to make giving up high level spells/powers worthwhile?

Exthalion
2010-07-08, 01:09 PM
I suppose if someone has a good alternative to cerebromancer that would be sufficient as well.

Odd, isn't it. That there are three options for mixing arcane magic and psionics but all of them cut off access to higher level spells and powers, or just don't get there on their own.

arguskos
2010-07-08, 01:14 PM
I have it. I read it. It's... special. Twin Wells is really pretty strong, and Twin Wells Same Source is ++.

It's very good, probably worth the lost levels. Here's a funny trick though:

Wizard 1 (taking precocious apprentice for early entry)/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 6/Mind Mage 10.

You get 9th level powers, 8th level arcane casting, and every nice goodie that Mind Mage grants you. Seems pretty ok to me. :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 01:14 PM
I found it via Google. Assuming I'm looking at the right one, it seems pretty bad. Losing 2 caster levels and 2 manifester levels is no good for a theurge, because you'll already be losing levels to qualify.

arguskos
2010-07-08, 01:15 PM
I found it via Google. Assuming I'm looking at the right one, it seems pretty bad. Losing 2 caster levels and 2 manifester levels is no good for a theurge, because you'll already be losing levels to qualify.
1. You have multiple Theurge options to combine with Mind Mage.

2. Twin Wells and TW++ help counter that somewhat.

3. Taking a short dip for the power points-->metamagic thing is pretty good.

Flickerdart
2010-07-08, 01:19 PM
I have it. I read it. It's... special. Twin Wells is really pretty strong, and Twin Wells Same Source is ++.

It's very good, probably worth the lost levels. Here's a funny trick though:

Wizard 1 (taking precocious apprentice for early entry)/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 6/Mind Mage 10.

You get 9th level powers, 8th level arcane casting, and every nice goodie that Mind Mage grants you. Seems pretty ok to me. :smallamused:
Could you not finagle Ardent into that to profit even more? Wizard 1/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 8/Mind Mage 10? If you can break the skill caps, at least. If not, another Ardent level.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 01:21 PM
I suppose I should clarify "pretty bad." Obviously 9th-level spells and 8th-level powers are quite good - but you're blowing a ton of feats (and I don't know whether these "psi-spell" feats are any good) just to qualify, when you can accomplish the same objective as an StP Erudite and be up several feats.

Stacked on top of Cerebremancer it's great, but on its own (i.e. compared to Cerebremancer) it's not so hot. You can do great things with True Necromancer if you stack it on top of Mystic Theurge, but that doesn't make True Necro itself good.

arguskos
2010-07-08, 01:24 PM
Could you not finagle Ardent into that to profit even more? Wizard 1/Ardent 1/Cerebremancer 8/Mind Mage 10? If you can break the skill caps, at least. If not, another Ardent level.
Hey, yeah, Ardent. There's another good one.


I suppose I should clarify "pretty bad." Obviously 9th-level spells and 8th-level powers are quite good - but you're blowing a ton of feats (and I don't know whether these "psi-spell" feats are any good) just to qualify, when you can accomplish the same objective as an StP Erudite and be up several feats.
...you are seriously using StP Erudite as a benchmark here? I think you've lost the war on this one, Opti. That's like using Beholder Mage as a benchmark of power to compare Entropomancer against.


Stacked on top of Cerebremancer it's great, but on its own (i.e. compared to Cerebremancer) it's not so hot. You can do great things with True Necromancer if you stack it on top of Mystic Theurge, but that doesn't make True Necro itself good.
Well, Mind Mage has some very nice class features that do some cool stuff. I'd hazard that it's better then theurges normally are, just because you get class features of relevance.

Now, purely power-based, ok, it's not. For an actual game, I'd say it's probably better than your average theurge.

Eurus
2010-07-08, 01:26 PM
I found it via Google. Assuming I'm looking at the right one, it seems pretty bad. Losing 2 caster levels and 2 manifester levels is no good for a theurge, because you'll already be losing levels to qualify.

Yeah, but the class features are fantastic. Everyone knows how ridiculous free metamagic can be, and this thing is better at that than the Ultimate Magus with only two levels. Force Touch is neat, since you can basically drop two spells for the action cost of one. Twin Wells is absolutely nova-tastic, and Focus of Discipline is... well, it might be useful sometimes. And Twin Wells Same Source is completely awesome.

Still probably not worth it as a Wizard 5/Psion 3/Mind Mage 10, since you'd lose out on way too much, but you can go in as a:

Wizard 1 (with Precocious Apprentice)/Ardent 2 (with Practiced Manifester)/Cerebremancer 2/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 3-7. You don't lose any manifester levels, but pick up wizard casting of your level -2 (enough to end with 9th level spells) and all the Mind Mage stuff.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 01:35 PM
...you are seriously using StP Erudite as a benchmark here?

No, Cerebremancer.

Again, you can end up powerful as a result - but that says more about Cerebremancer than Mind Mage, just as the power of a True Necro/MT that ends up with 9/8s says more about MT's power than TN's.


Wizard 1 (with Precocious Apprentice)/Ardent 2 (with Practiced Manifester)/Cerebremancer 2/Mind Mage 10/Cerebremancer 3-7. You don't lose any manifester levels, but pick up wizard casting of your level -2 (enough to end with 9th level spells) and all the Mind Mage stuff.

And that build says more about Ardent than MM. Specifically that, by losing a boatload of power points and sacrificing several mid-level powers, they can bypass the ML progression system and end up at 9ths.

The metamagic ability is nice, but more expensive than it looks. Persisting a spell will cost 18 PP - the equivalent of a 9th-level slot.Though interestingly enough, they do not limit it to your manifester level, which I chalk up to Dragon's wonderfully rigorous editing procedures.

Exthalion
2010-07-08, 01:40 PM
Assume I don't hate my DM and don't go the Ardent route, would psion (and what discipline) or erudite (with one of its variants most likely spell to power) be a better fit?

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 01:57 PM
Assume I don't hate my DM and don't go the Ardent route, would psion (and what discipline) or erudite (with one of its variants most likely spell to power) be a better fit?

If you're going StP Erudite there's no reason to take this PrC at all.
(You also probably hate your DM :smalltongue:)

With Psion/Erudite instead of Ardent, you need a 3rd level of Psion before you can get into Cerebremancer over Eurus' build. This is just enough for you to miss out on 9th-level spells, though you can still get 9th-level powers.

Exthalion
2010-07-08, 02:12 PM
Doesn't StP still not get 9th level spells?

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 02:17 PM
Doesn't StP still not get 9th level spells?

a) Neither does Mind Mage/Cerebremancer unless you use Ardent.

b) You can learn 9th-level spells that your caster friend has lowered to 8th-level. (e.g. via Sanctum Spell.)

Exthalion
2010-07-08, 02:22 PM
What I mean is that while strait 20 StP would have more power points this way I would have the Theurge like never run out of casting ability the free metamagic and the huge caster/manifester level.

Along with the same access to 9th level spells.

So I guess what I am saying is, that as a final build is this one better the pure Spell-to-Power Erudite?