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Mystic Muse
2010-07-08, 10:30 PM
Not homebrewing, just looking for ways to take away some of th penalties from using full plate. The main things that get me are the penalty to skill checks and the speed reduction. I can (Theoretically) deal with the speed reduction by enchanting the armor with a continuous expeditious retreat effect but is there something I can do about the skill penalty other than making the armor out of mithril?

Also, if there's a better way (AKA more likely) to get rid of the speed penalty, other than boots of striding and sprining, I'd be willing to hear it.

EDIT: This character already exists and is a human. I can't really change the race at this point.
EDIT 2: I should also mention I can't afford to take levels in another class.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-08, 10:31 PM
I think there is a feat Armor specialization in races of stone, that reduces the ACP.... other than that I think a mithral fullplate counts as a medium armor

IdleMuse
2010-07-08, 10:39 PM
The Quickness armour enchant in MIC (p13) increases your speed by 5ft. Armour of Nimbleness (directly above Quickness) increases the armour's max dex by 1 and decreases the AC penalty by 2.

Aside from that, there's numerous other ways of increasing your speed, or you could be a Dwarf, who don't take the speed penalty from anything less than Mountain plate.

As for how to make Full Plate better, try Mechanus Plate from Planar Handbook, or if you're that worried about speed, Heavy Plate from Races of Stone. If you have a feat free for Exotic Armour Proficiency, Battle or Mountain plate are in the same book for even higher mundane armour bonuses.

If the campaign suits it, you could always use the historical solution and sit on a horse. :smalltongue:

Andion Isurand
2010-07-08, 10:39 PM
Heh, well, you could try this...

Thaalud Stone Armor: heavy armor; 2,800 gp;
armor bonus +12; max Dex +0; check penalty
8; AF 40%; 180 lb.

from Anauroch the Empire of Shade

There is also a feat in Races of Stone that lets you add your armor bonus to your touch AC as long as you are psionically focused.

taltamir
2010-07-08, 10:42 PM
mithril... its cheap, it reduces the skill penalties, reduces weight, reduces speed penalty, allows higher dex bonus...

mithril fullplate FTW.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-08, 10:43 PM
I think there is a feat Armor specialization in races of stone, that reduces the ACP.... other than that I think a mithral fullplate counts as a medium armor

This might work. However, does a Mithral fullplate still count for the purposes of the feat?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-08, 10:46 PM
This might work. However, does a Mithral fullplate still count for the purposes of the feat?

I think it depends on the DM, if (s)he rules that Mithral FP is a heavy armor you take the feat for heavy armor, if (s)he rules Mithral FP is medium you take the feat for medium armor

Defiant
2010-07-08, 10:49 PM
Mithral full plate is medium armor.

Any other ruling is pure sillyness.


Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral)

Mystic Muse
2010-07-08, 10:53 PM
The Quickness armour enchant in MIC (p13) increases your speed by 5ft. Armour of Nimbleness (directly above Quickness) increases the armour's max dex by 1 and decreases the AC penalty by 2.[quote] This should work

[quote]
If the campaign suits it, you could always use the historical solution and sit on a horse. :smalltongue:

Bah. Who needs a horse when you have a Dragon? (Won't always be riding her is why I was wondering)


Mithral full plate is medium armor.

Any other ruling is pure sillyness.

That's what I thought.

mabriss lethe
2010-07-08, 10:58 PM
As with so many problems, the solution can be a simple as taking a level of Binder. Binding Aym gets you the Dwarven Step ability, which allows you to move at your full speed while wearing medium or heavy armor

Mystic Muse
2010-07-08, 10:59 PM
Sorry, multiclassing isn't an option. I should make that clear in the OP.

Knaight
2010-07-08, 11:05 PM
Mithral full plate is medium armor.

Any other ruling is pure sillyness.

Your quote: "Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light.

This implies that heavy armors are still heavy armor, but merely treated as medium. Being treated as medium the feat for medium should work, but as it does not say that they actually become medium, one could argue the feat for heavy in addition to the one for medium.

ProfMoriarty
2010-07-08, 11:15 PM
From Tome of Magic, the Teeth of Dahlver-Nar items have a tooth of Savnok for 2000gp, which lets you move at your normal speed even while wearing medium or heavy armor.

It takes up no item slot but you are under the influence of the Savnok Vestige.

Savnok requires you to be headstrong and stick to decisions you make and never remove armor providing AC for any reason, even shields, else suffer a -1 penalty to attack, saves, and AC until you remove the tooth.

Defiant
2010-07-08, 11:29 PM
Your quote: "Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light.

This implies that heavy armors are still heavy armor, but merely treated as medium. Being treated as medium the feat for medium should work, but as it does not say that they actually become medium, one could argue the feat for heavy in addition to the one for medium.

It does not say in what regard they are treated as medium armor. We cannot conjecture in what way they are not treated as medium armor. Logically, it would be safe to say that regardless of "being" heavy, in all respects they are treated as medium. A feat says that it doesn't work for armor that "is" heavy? No problem, since MFP will be treated as medium.

Is MFP treated as medium armor in regards to proficiencies and feats? Is MFP treated as medium armor in regards to speed? Etc.

Like I said, any other ruling is pure silliness. (consequently I also spelled it wrong earlier)

Grumman
2010-07-08, 11:30 PM
This might work. However, does a Mithral fullplate still count for the purposes of the feat?
I say it should be like Powerful Build, it counts as whichever is better on a case by case basis. Particularly for glassteel: it makes no sense for a feat to work with steel splint mail (+6 AC) but not work for glassteel mechanus gear (+13 AC) because it's too light.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-08, 11:35 PM
Well, the 2 less ACP from nimbleness and the -2 from Mithral work well enough and I can spend 2,000 on the tooth if my DM won't allow the expeditious retreat modification.

Thanks everyone.

Also, what's glassteel from?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-08, 11:36 PM
I think glassteel is a special material from eberron.... but I am not sure

Grumman
2010-07-08, 11:38 PM
Also, what's glassteel from?
Races of Faerun.

erikun
2010-07-08, 11:40 PM
It does not say in what regard they are treated as medium armor. We cannot conjecture in what way they are not treated as medium armor. Logically, it would be safe to say that regardless of "being" heavy, in all respects they are treated as medium. A feat says that it doesn't work for armor that "is" heavy? No problem, since MFP will be treated as medium.

Is MFP treated as medium armor in regards to proficiencies and feats? Is MFP treated as medium armor in regards to speed? Etc.

Like I said, any other ruling is pure silliness. (consequently I also spelled it wrong earlier)
Be careful with assuming such logic is universal. At my table, Medium Armor Proficiency is proficiency in the equipment listed as medium armor on page 123 in the PHB (and any other armors listed as medium). Proficiency in a suit of full plate, regardless of how much it weighs, would be handled under Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Just as training in wielding a Bastard Sword one-handed is handled with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, even though a mithral bastard sword is as light as a standard long sword.

Defiant
2010-07-08, 11:52 PM
Be careful with assuming such logic is universal. At my table, Medium Armor Proficiency is proficiency in the equipment listed as medium armor on page 123 in the PHB (and any other armors listed as medium). Proficiency in a suit of full plate, regardless of how much it weighs, would be handled under Heavy Armor Proficiency.

Mithral full plate is treated as medium armor. Medium Armor Proficiency grants the wearer with proficiency in the medium type of armor. Even if MFP is not medium armor, it is treated as medium armor.

Is a character with MAP proficient with MFP? MFP is treated as medium, and the character can wear medium armor without penalty. Therefore, I would say yes.

By RAW at least.

Conceptually, I can see how one could house-rule that HAP is necessary for being proficient with any type of full-plate. But by RAW, MFP is treated as medium.


Just as training in wielding a Bastard Sword one-handed is handled with Exotic Weapon Proficiency, even though a mithral bastard sword is as light as a standard long sword.

The properties of the mithral special material has no bearing on the type (martial or exotic) of weapon. Nowhere does it specify the reason one needs EWP for BS as being that it's too heavy to handle in one hand without special training. In fact, it says it is too large to handle in one hand without training, so reducing its weight should have no effect (by fluff) on its need for EWP.

Therefore, never would adding the mithral special material to a Bastard Sword eliminate the need for EWP, for use in one hand.

By RAW at least.

Conceptually, I can see how one could house-rule that a MBS could be easier to use in one hand so as to belay the need for EWP. But then again, the fluff does say the reason training is needed is that the BS is too large, not too heavy. DM's call, really.

Rixx
2010-07-09, 12:01 AM
Pathfinder fighters gradually reduce their armor check penalties and increase their max dex bonuses as they level. As soon as 7th level, a fighter can move full speed in heavy armor.

erikun
2010-07-09, 12:37 AM
DM's call, really.
Exactly, although calling such DMs silly is a bit much. :smalltongue:

Defiant
2010-07-09, 12:42 AM
Exactly, although calling such DMs silly is a bit much. :smalltongue:

Well it's mainly silly to pay such a hefty fee for mithral (9000gp for Heavy Armor), yet not gain the important benefits. I mean, what's the boost mithral gives, if not for toning down armor type? Weight? Meagre benefits to max dex and armor check penalties? Not worth it.

What makes it amazingly fun is exactly that of toning down the armor type. Now a barbarian or a bard can wear breastplate.

Heck, I wish there were something, however more exponentially expensive, that brought it down even two steps!

Coidzor
2010-07-09, 01:02 AM
If the campaign suits it, you could always use the historical solution and sit on a horse. :smalltongue:

It's still a popular recourse. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE)

Mystic Muse
2010-07-09, 01:31 AM
Well it's mainly silly to pay such a hefty fee for mithral (9000gp for Heavy Armor), yet not gain the important benefits. I mean, what's the boost mithral gives, if not for toning down armor type? Weight? Meagre benefits to max dex and armor check penalties? Not worth it.


Agreed. For example, a Chain shirt weighs 25 pounds and it costs 1,000 to turn that into a mithril chain shirt.

Then we have full plate. It weighs only twice as much, yet for some reason it costs 9 times more than the chain shirt does.

huttj509
2010-07-09, 03:35 AM
Agreed. For example, a Chain shirt weighs 25 pounds and it costs 1,000 to turn that into a mithril chain shirt.

Then we have full plate. It weighs twice as much, yet for some reason it costs 9 times more than the chain shirt does.

Well, that's because the full plate has large pieces that gotta be formed. That's a lotta mithril to work with, and a lot of man hours.

Chain shirt? That's just a series of loosely connected holes, right? Not like working with the links is time consuming or anything. :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse
2010-07-09, 03:37 AM
Well, that's because the full plate has large pieces that gotta be formed. That's a lotta mithril to work with, and a lot of man hours.

Chain shirt? That's just a series of loosely connected holes, right? Not like working with the links is time consuming or anything. :smalltongue:

If that's the case, why aren't prices similar for adamantine?

EDIT: I don't know. It just seems like the prices were decided rather arbitrarily. Every other price seems consistent but the mithral item prices seem random.

Math_Mage
2010-07-09, 04:30 AM
Agreed. For example, a Chain shirt weighs 25 pounds and it costs 1,000 to turn that into a mithril chain shirt.

Then we have full plate. It weighs only twice as much, yet for some reason it costs 9 times more than the chain shirt does.

Well, the original products differ in price by a factor of 15. For a more concrete explanation, well, difficulty of labor plays a role. Assume mithral works because it provides the same amount of protection with a thinner piece of metal. For maille, all you have to do is draw the wires a little longer than with regular metal, and spend a lot more time putting the rings together in the appropriate weave. For plate, you have to maintain a uniform thickness over a large surface with much less margin for error than before, which requires better tools and more skilled laborers and so on. Hence the expense, on top of the material costs.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-09, 04:32 AM
It sounds like the Halfweight armor enhancement is what you're looking for. Buy it as Halfweight Illithidwrought armor to get it cheaper. Both enchantments are next to eachother in the Forgotten Realms book Underdark on page 70. Halfweight will let you treat any armor as Light armor and halves the armor's lsited weight. If used in combination with Illithidwrought is only a +2 price modifier.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-09, 04:36 AM
Well, the original products differ in price by a factor of 15. For a more concrete explanation, well, difficulty of labor plays a role. Assume mithral works because it provides the same amount of protection with a thinner piece of metal. For maille, all you have to do is draw the wires a little longer than with regular metal, and spend a lot more time putting the rings together in the appropriate weave. For plate, you have to maintain a uniform thickness over a large surface with much less margin for error than before, which requires better tools and more skilled laborers and so on. Hence the expense, on top of the material costs.

Wouldn't it be the same for items made out of different materials too though? Making full plate out of adamantine costs only 3 times as much as an adamantine chain shirt does (Ignoring the original prices)


It sounds like the Halfweight armor enhancement is what you're looking for. Buy it as Halfweight Illithidwrought armor to get it cheaper. Both enchantments are next to eachother in the FR book Underdark on page 70. Halfweight will let you treat any armor as Light armor and halves the armor's lsited weight. If used in combination with Illithidwrought is only a +2 price modifier.

What's Ilithid wrought do that I'd want to combine them?

Wings of Peace
2010-07-09, 04:39 AM
Wouldn't it be the same for items made out of different materials too though? Making full plate out of adamantine costs only 3 times as much as an adamantine chain shirt does (Ignoring the original prices)



What's Ilithid wrought do that I'd want to combine them?

Ignore the advice to take Illithidwrought for cheapness, I was reading things wrong. If they're together on the armor then Halfweight becomes a +2 instead of a +3. But Illithidwrought is also a +2 so in the long run you're still paying more.

Illithidwrought gives a +1 Insight bonus to AC or a +2 Insight bonus to AC if you're a psionic creature.

Edit: Ask your DM actually, according to the table Illithidwrought is a +1 to the price modifier, but in parenthesis it and Halfplate are both listed +2s indicating together they should only be a +2 in my mind. The text however does not agree with this, so there seems to be some contradiction in how it was written.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-09, 04:45 AM
Edit: Ask your DM actually, according to the table Illithidwrought is a +1 to the price modifier, but in parenthesis it and Halfplate are both listed +2s indicating together they should only be a +2 in my mind. The text however does not agree with this, so there seems to be some contradiction in how it was written.

Text trumps table.

Is there anything else that halfweight does or does it just make the armor count as light?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-09, 04:46 AM
First of all, if you're only proficient in medium and light armor you can wear mithril full plate without penalty, because it is medium armor.

Armor Specialization is in PH2, and it gives you DR 2/- when wearing the chosen type of armor. The feats in RoS are Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization, both of which increase the armor bonus it grants and decrease the armor check penalty. One option would be adamantine full plate, which would grant DR 3/-. You could also see if your DM would let the DR of adamantine heavy armor stack with armor specialization, since both grant the same type of DR.

RoS also has the feat Deflective Armor, which makes the armor bonus of any heavy armor you wear also apply to your touch AC when you're psionically focused.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-09, 04:50 AM
Is there anything else that halfweight does or does it just make the armor count as light?

-Armor base weight is halved

-Armor counts as light in ALL ways.

-+3 to Price Modifier (+2 if Illithidwrought is also applied to the armor)

The example they give is sort of strange. They use a breastplate and explain that the person wearing the Halfweight Breastplate takes no penalties if they are ONLY proficient in light armor. This contradicts the earlier text which does not describe he property itself as being dependent on your proficiencies at all.

For imagery purposes, it's essentially armor with lots of 'psionic' circuitry and articulated joints to make moving easier.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-09, 04:51 AM
-Armor base weight is halved

-Armor counts as light.

Hmm. I don't really know if that's worth +2 or not. I'll have to think about it.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-09, 04:52 AM
Hmm. I don't really know if that's worth +2 or not. I'll have to think about it.

Ninja edited as you typed, it's +3. The price is only +2 if Illithidwrought is also applied and together they form a +4.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-09, 04:54 AM
Ninja edited as you typed, it's +3. The price is only +2 if Illithidwrought is also applied and together they form a +4.

Oh. Yeah, not worth +3. I can't even afford that right now.

Ossian
2010-07-09, 05:00 AM
Qualify for Dread Commando as soon as you can, and no one shall stop you ! :smallbiggrin: (Heros of Battle)

Mystic Muse
2010-07-09, 05:46 AM
Qualify for Dread Commando as soon as you can, and no one shall stop you ! :smallbiggrin: (Heros of Battle)

Can't use it. I can't afford to take levels in another class. Plus, I wouldn't qualify until level 15 anyway since I need to get 2 feats that I haven't spent any feats on to qualify.

Knaight
2010-07-09, 07:52 AM
For maille, all you have to do is draw the wires a little longer than with regular metal, and spend a lot more time putting the rings together in the appropriate weave. For plate, you have to maintain a uniform thickness over a large surface with much less margin for error than before, which requires better tools and more skilled laborers and so on. Hence the expense, on top of the material costs.

So, what about the difference between a chainmail shirt and chainmail. Or, to ditch D&D terminology a mail shirt or mail hauberk? Its just the rings, drawn thinner, riveted together, then presumably heat treated after being put together. Yet there is a significant difference out of proportion to sheer quantity of rings, and its not as if the hauberk design is significantly more difficult.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-09, 09:02 AM
Turns out I can actually afford the +3. I was thinking Armor bonuses and Weapon bonuses cost the same.

So, if that affects anything feel free to mention it.