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Jackgar
2010-07-12, 12:21 PM
Hey, guys.

I was searching through the board, trying to find any threads or anything that could let me in on good feats for Artificers, and quickly found out how swarmed the search is with things I might not necessarily be able to use, so I decided to ask like this.

Anyway, anyone's who's read through my Warforged Rogue thread ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159400 Here if you're curious) knows that one of my group members is an Artificer. Well, I'm trying to help him out by figuring out what manner of feats would be good for him, or what would be good books to look through. I'm looking mainly for things that would either improve his ability to buff the rest of us, or to maximize the use of magic items. Also, one of his goals with the character is to have to roll as few dice as possible for anything but damage. Which seems odd to me, but I guess he just doesn't have all that much confidence in his rolling.

Optimystik
2010-07-12, 12:28 PM
Here's an Artificer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0) with some nice suggestions. (Don't let the "3.0" fool you, that is the iteration of the guide rather than the edition.)

Jackgar
2010-07-12, 12:29 PM
Here's an Artificer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0) with some nice suggestions. (Don't let the "3.0" fool you, that is the iteration of the guide rather than the edition.)

Ah, cool. I was trying to find something like that, and I was getting lost in the waves of other threads.

Edit: No wonder I couldn't find it, after looking at the URL :p

Optimystik
2010-07-12, 12:42 PM
BG is where most of the handbooks from the WotC CharOp boards were moved to just before their purge. Definitely search there first for handbooks (then here, then WotC.)

There's also a thriving optimization community.

PId6
2010-07-12, 12:42 PM
Make sure to pick up Extraordinary and Legendary Artisan (ECS) to reduce cost/xp of crafting. If he's a warforged who traded away Craft Homunculus, definitely pick up Craft Construct (MM1) in order to build Dedicated Wrights for crafting while adventuring.

Extend Spell and Persistent Spell (CArc) are awesome for an artificer due to Metamagic Spell Completion and the Metamagic Item infusion. Quicken and Twin Spell (CArc) are likewise good, but not to the same degree. Chain Spell (CArc) can be useful for a buffer, while Craft Contingent Spell (CArc) is simply amazing if allowed. Finally, Wand Surge (ECS) goes very nicely with the Unfettered Heroism spell (RoE).

Jackgar
2010-07-12, 01:00 PM
Make sure to pick up Extraordinary and Legendary Artisan (ECS) to reduce cost/xp of crafting. If he's a warforged who traded away Craft Homunculus, definitely pick up Craft Construct (MM1) in order to build Dedicated Wrights for crafting while adventuring.

Extend Spell and Persistent Spell (CArc) are awesome for an artificer due to Metamagic Spell Completion and the Metamagic Item infusion. Quicken and Twin Spell (CArc) are likewise good, but not to the same degree. Chain Spell (CArc) can be useful for a buffer, while Craft Contingent Spell (CArc) is simply amazing if allowed. Finally, Wand Surge (ECS) goes very nicely with the Unfettered Heroism spell (RoE).

I know he'll definitely want to take advantage of any crafting feats he can get that the Artificer's class doesn't automatically grant him, especially since he wants to try his hand at making golems when it's financially feasible. And just so I know I'm in the right book, CArc is Complete Arcane, right?


BG is where most of the handbooks from the WotC CharOp boards were moved to just before their purge. Definitely search there first for handbooks (then here, then WotC.)

There's also a thriving optimization community.

Ah, I'll be sure to pour through there first before I have a question about what would be worth taking for any given class. Thanks again.

PId6
2010-07-12, 01:11 PM
And just so I know I'm in the right book, CArc is Complete Arcane, right?
Yep, that's correct.

theos911
2010-07-12, 01:20 PM
The Maester

You need to be a gnome with 8 craft ranks and 4 UMD ranks and you must have 2 item creation feats and Arcane CL 5.

It is a poor BAB, good will save, 4/5 casting PrC. At 1 and 5 you get a bonus item creation feat. Also at level 1 you get quick crafting. This allows you to make any item in half the normal time required to make it. I recall someone looking for a way to craft things faster a while back, so I guess this is there answer. The neat thing about this class is it's lvl 3 ability to basically cast identify at will for free as many times per day as needed. It's not quite like casting it, but it is very similar. I think this is one of the most balanced classes I've ever seen. It's good for a 1 lvl dip, a 3 lvl dip or taken for all 5 levels. I don't know much about artificers, but this could be a cool PrC for them, although I'm sure there are better(Read:Less balanced or overpowered)ones out there.

Lol, never quoted myself before. Well your not the guy who was looking for quicker crafting, but your close enough. I know you want feats, but this is class that gives 2 bonus item creation feats. Again, I'm not an artificer expert, but this class still seems like it would well for them.

EDIT-Just noticed he is warforged, reqs for this is gnome. See if DM will refluff; seems reasonable to me to let warforged take it.

Jackgar
2010-07-12, 01:29 PM
Lol, never quoted myself before. Well your not the guy who was looking for quicker crafting, but your close enough. I know you want feats, but this is class that gives 2 bonus item creation feats. Again, I'm not an artificer expert, but this class still seems like it would well for them.

EDIT-Just noticed he is warforged, reqs for this is gnome. See if DM will refluff; seems reasonable to me to let warforged take it.

That does seem like a neat class, but I'm not totally sure our DM would allow it. It's a prestige class, it looks like, right? And as for creation feats, don't Artificers get a good chunk of them through standard leveling? Anyway, I'll ask the player if he'd be interested in it first, then I'll ask the DM if he'd be willing to refluff it. What book is it in?

theos911
2010-07-12, 01:34 PM
That does seem like a neat class, but I'm not totally sure our DM would allow it. It's a prestige class, it looks like, right? And as for creation feats, don't Artificers get a good chunk of them through standard leveling? Anyway, I'll ask the player if he'd be interested in it first, then I'll ask the DM if he'd be willing to refluff it. What book is it in?

It is from Complete Adventurer in the PrC section. Idk what feats artificers get. I'd guess they get quite a few. I as a DM would be willing to refluff it, though that doesn't matter much here.

EDIT-They get all the core item creation feats. They also get 5 bonus feats. These can be used on Metamagic or a custom list of 5 in the class entry. There are no item creation feats on that list. Maester would allow him to get some other item creation feats from out of core, but it wouldn't really help him anyway. Also, you said it was a core game so there wouldn't be any other item creation feats for him to take. Looking at artfiicer I can't see any reason why would you would not advance in the class all the way. Straight artificer would be better than going into Maester. Now if it were gestalt, he could do maester and something else on the other side. That would be cool and also probably game breaking depending on what else you put on 2nd. side.

Jackgar
2010-07-12, 01:54 PM
It is from Complete Adventurer in the PrC section. Idk what feats artificers get. I'd guess they get quite a few. I as a DM would be willing to refluff it, though that doesn't matter much here.

EDIT-They get all the core item creation feats. They also get 5 bonus feats. These can be used on Metamagic or a custom list of 5 in the class entry. There are no item creation feats on that list. Maester would allow him to get some other item creation feats from out of core, but it wouldn't really help him anyway. Also, you said it was a core game so there wouldn't be any other item creation feats for him to take. Looking at artfiicer I can't see any reason why would you would not advance in the class all the way. Straight artificer would be better than going into Maester. Now if it were gestalt, he could do maester and something else on the other side. That would be cool and also probably game breaking depending on what else you put on 2nd. side.

Well I wouldn't say we're totally core. Our DM's basically said "If it's in a WotC book, it's available." But either way, it sounds like pure Artificer would be fine, which is good, since I don't think the player has much interest in multiclassing in any way, even if it's Prestige. He doesn't really want to over-complicate his character too much. How about for his "not having to roll too many dice" thing? Are there ways to go about that?

theos911
2010-07-12, 02:07 PM
Well I wouldn't say we're totally core. Our DM's basically said "If it's in a WotC book, it's available." But either way, it sounds like pure Artificer would be fine, which is good, since I don't think the player has much interest in multiclassing in any way, even if it's Prestige. He doesn't really want to over-complicate his character too much. How about for his "not having to roll too many dice" thing? Are there ways to go about that?

There are ways of doing it. I'm going to assume less attack rolls for now. You always have Force Missile Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8664949&postcount=61)(Thanks K-B), Magic Missile means no attack roll. On a more serious note there is a thread around here somewhere on how to avoid making attack rolls as well. I don't remember what it is called. Sorry to be so non-helpful

Jackgar
2010-07-12, 02:18 PM
It is from Complete Adventurer in the PrC section. Idk what feats artificers get. I'd guess they get quite a few. I as a DM would be willing to refluff it, though that doesn't matter much here.

EDIT-They get all the core item creation feats. They also get 5 bonus feats. These can be used on Metamagic or a custom list of 5 in the class entry. There are no item creation feats on that list. Maester would allow him to get some other item creation feats from out of core, but it wouldn't really help him anyway. Also, you said it was a core game so there wouldn't be any other item creation feats for him to take. Looking at artfiicer I can't see any reason why would you would not advance in the class all the way. Straight artificer would be better than going into Maester. Now if it were gestalt, he could do maester and something else on the other side. That would be cool and also probably game breaking depending on what else you put on 2nd. side.


There are ways of doing it. I'm going to assume less attack rolls for now. You always have Force Missile Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8664949&postcount=61)(Thanks K-B), Magic Missile means no attack roll. On a more serious note there is a thread around here somewhere on how to avoid making attack rolls as well. I don't remember what it is called. Sorry to be so non-helpful

Letting me know it's around is plenty helpful enough, trust me. I mostly wondered if it could be done as an artificer. Even Magic Missile, though, he still has to roll. He has a wand of it. His UMD is high enough that he rarely botches it, but that can only take you so far, ya know?

theos911
2010-07-12, 07:14 PM
I didn't think of it earlier, but he could always take maximize. Makes max roll for all dice, no rolling needed. See my sig for evocant champ. It gets a small pool of maximizes per day. You and I could homebrew a 5 lvl PrC loosely based off that with a crafty feel to it and he could use that. Of course that is, if you wish to go through all that work for a friend.

Lycanthromancer
2010-07-12, 07:39 PM
Consider making some +1 spell-storing aurorum dye arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye) with a least energy crystal attached to your bow.

You'll be able to store your infusions in your arrows so you can make touch-attacks on your warforged companions at range (multiple times a round - once per attack). When they hit, they'll break, causing 1 point of energy damage (but no more) and releasing the infusion stored within.

If you take the warforged artificer ACF from Races of Eberron, you'll heal them when you hit them as well, making up for the damage dealt by the energy crystal and then some.

After the fight, just collect the pieces of the arrows (even better if you put returning on them) and reassemble them before the next time you're ready to fill them with infusions.

Only works on 3rd level infusions and below, but this is a great way to assist your party while maximizing your resources.

Jackgar
2010-07-12, 08:04 PM
I didn't think of it earlier, but he could always take maximize. Makes max roll for all dice, no rolling needed. See my sig for evocant champ. It gets a small pool of maximizes per day. You and I could homebrew a 5 lvl PrC loosely based off that with a crafty feel to it and he could use that. Of course that is, if you wish to go through all that work for a friend.

That does sound fun, and I'd be down for at least making one as a thought experiment, but we do have the restriction of "Official WotC material only", which does include site-posted stuff, but no totally homebrewed classes. If you are interested in at least thinking something up for potential future use, either send me a PM or drop me a line on AIM.

Lycan: That's a pretty neat idea, making buffing arrows. I'll also look at that ACF and see if it would work well for our campaign (it probably will, I'm sure), and let the player know about it, and see if he'd like to take it. Our DM's letting me retroactively take an ACF on my Rogue, so he'll probably allow it for the 'ficer,too.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-12, 08:07 PM
TWF + Double Wand Wielder is pretty rawesome for a blastificer. Especially if you have Wand Mastery.

Jackgar
2010-07-12, 08:49 PM
TWF + Double Wand Wielder is pretty rawesome for a blastificer. Especially if you have Wand Mastery.

Why would you use both TWF and Double Wand Wielder? How do they stack together? Wand mastery, of course, makes total sense no matter what.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-12, 08:50 PM
Why would you use both TWF and Double Wand Wielder? How do they stack together? Wand mastery, of course, makes total sense no matter what.

TWF is a prereq for Double Wand Wielder, so I included it.

Jackgar
2010-07-12, 09:49 PM
TWF is a prereq for Double Wand Wielder, so I included it.

Ooooh, alright, that makes sense then.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-07-12, 10:58 PM
Man, doing all the wand stuff gets expensive fast, though. You'd need to be in a game with some serious cash flowing to pull it off with any amount of regularity.

Escheton
2010-07-13, 01:56 AM
Eternal wands, eternal wands, eternal wands.
You will be knee-deep in bandoleers, haversacks and wandcompartments anyways. Get eternals for the spell/infusions you use a lot.

The artificerguide mentions a great prestigeclass that allows you to make potions that enable you to use infusions as a standard action.
Which is rather awesome.
It also mentions arbalesters. A homunculi that acts as an independent crossbow, that can even perch itelf on your shoulder or pack.
I don't have Magic of eberron. Can anyone quote the stats and prereqs on those?

Jackgar
2010-07-13, 12:26 PM
Eternal wands, eternal wands, eternal wands.
You will be knee-deep in bandoleers, haversacks and wandcompartments anyways. Get eternals for the spell/infusions you use a lot.

The artificerguide mentions a great prestigeclass that allows you to make potions that enable you to use infusions as a standard action.
Which is rather awesome.
It also mentions arbalesters. A homunculi that acts as an independent crossbow, that can even perch itelf on your shoulder or pack.
I don't have Magic of eberron. Can anyone quote the stats and prereqs on those?


Arbalester
Tiny Construct
Hit Dice: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares)
AC: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, fl at-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/9
Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d41) or masterwork light crossbow
+7 ranged (1d8/1920)
Full Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d41) or masterwork light
crossbow +7 ranged (1d8/1920)
Space/Reach: 21/2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Receive enhancement
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft.,
low-light vision
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +4, Will +0
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 19, Con , Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 7
Skills: Balance +8, Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Point Blank Shot
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Any (same as creator)
Advancement: 23 HD (Tiny)
Level Adjustment:

Page 151, if you're curious.

Speaking of homunculi, I'm trying to find exactly where the description for Improved Homuculus is, or the statblocks for the standard ones. I was flipping all through ECR and MoE trying to find them, and no luck. Can someone get me the page numbers?

Beorn080
2010-07-13, 12:44 PM
Hmm, with a full set of mental scores, that arbalester is sentient, and can gain class levels. I'm seeing a small army of rogue arbalesters.

Escheton
2010-07-13, 04:14 PM
The basic homunculus can be found on page 154 monster manual 3.5.

Checking out the improved homunculus feat makes me want to craft a swarm of flying autonomous crossbows.
The way I am reading the artificer entry though is that they can only make basic homunculi and would actually need the feat craft construct for any of the others. Which could not be advanced beyond 6hd.
Anyone have a different take on it?

Jackgar
2010-07-13, 10:43 PM
The basic homunculus can be found on page 154 monster manual 3.5.

Checking out the improved homunculus feat makes me want to craft a swarm of flying autonomous crossbows.
The way I am reading the artificer entry though is that they can only make basic homunculi and would actually need the feat craft construct for any of the others. Which could not be advanced beyond 6hd.
Anyone have a different take on it?

The homunculi that Artificers make are a little different, and I found exactly where they were all listed. The core ones start on page 284 of ECS. I don't really get why they're in a different section without the artificer section saying what page they start on, though. Seems odd to me.

Endarire
2010-07-14, 02:22 AM
Magic item cost reducers are handy.

Improved Initiative lets his army go sooner.

Improved Homunculus (Magic of Eberron 49) helps make your construct minions Big and Bad.

Heroic Surge (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) gets him an extra standard action at least once per day.

Escheton
2010-07-14, 04:55 AM
The thing is that the artificer entry has a part about adding hd and the homunculus then becoming small and not larger then that.
Given the various sizes of the new homunculi that makes me think as stated above.

Jackgar
2010-07-14, 10:17 AM
The thing is that the artificer entry has a part about adding hd and the homunculus then becoming small and not larger then that.
Given the various sizes of the new homunculi that makes me think as stated above.

Well when I had hit "quote" on your last message, it was still talking about the Monster Manual homunculus. So that's why I said what I did. And from the entry, it looks like you do NOT need craft construct for these. Artificer's Craft Homunculus is more like a specific version of Craft Construct that allows specifically the ones designed just for Artificer use. Of course, it's still cool to take Craft Construct as well and make an army of both homunculi and golems.

Escheton
2010-07-14, 12:38 PM
On that note: the warforged artificer alternative class features are pretty sweet. One replaces the craft homunculus class feature. On that same lvl you get a free feat though...

theos911
2010-07-14, 04:52 PM
On that note: the warforged artificer alternative class features are pretty sweet. One replaces the craft homunculus class feature. On that same lvl you get a free feat though...

The OP and I discussed those IN-DEPTH, but I don't remember what we agreed on....

Jackgar
2010-07-14, 05:20 PM
The OP and I discussed those IN-DEPTH, but I don't remember what we agreed on....

Well I haven't discussed those with the player yet. The level 1 one, though, there's no reason not to take, since you keep all the normal lv. 1 artificer stuff, plus you gain Infuse Self, which is cool.