Trying Command Undead on an Evil Undead Wizard...

[Talbot]

Ok, I'm a level 14 Factotum, possibly 15 by the time I try this. My target is an undead wizard capable of casting Gate, so I've estimated her Will save to be around 13 or so, significantly higher if she has Keen Intellect (in which case this plan is likely doomed to fail). I'd like to use Command Undead on her to get her to use gate (I have an ally who's been kidnapped to the Far Realm and I don't feel like going after him), are there any non cheesy ways to up my odds of success? My current save DC on this spell in 21, and I'd really like to bump it up to at least 23 and give myself a shot. I'd prefer not to use Heightened Spell (or anything else that costs me a feat slot, really), because, hey, I'm a Factotum, I'm not really casting that often, and I've got other stuff (FoI, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, etc.) I'd rather burn feats on.

[Tyger]

That wizard is going to have significantly higher than a 13 Will save. A level 17 wizard (minimum for casting gate), has a base of +10 to Will. Count in an actual WIS bonus, along with the basic +5 to saves vest or cloak, and you are likely looking at +20 or more.

That said, that isn't even your biggest problem. Any level 17 wizard that doesn't have Mindblank up all the time is, quite simply, doing it wrong.

If the wizard doesn't have that up, try a Mind Fog first, to drop the Will save.

[Talbot]

I have two things going for me on that front...

A) Magic items are ridiculously rare in this setting. I have a bunch of them because I took some crafting feats, but otherwise they're ultra-hard to come by... she probably has some, but the odds are good that if she does, they probably don't buff saves as in a ridiculously low-magic setting she's got to be much more worried about assassins, armies, and the like. I hope.

B) Since Undead are mostly immune to mind-affecting stuff, I'm not sure she'd bother with Mindblank. I hope. She also probably doesn't know I'm a caster, since my guy tries to conceal that fact as best as possible.

Since she's undead, would Mind Fog even work on her?

[Tyger]

Good point on the Mind Fog...

As for whether or not the wizard has Mindblank up will depend on your DM's perception of how powerful wizards operate. The protection from mind effects is only one facet of the spell, with protection from scrying being the other part. Many DMs (rightfully so I happen to believe) play high level wizards as paranoid bastards :smallbiggrin: in which case the Mindblank is all but guaranteed.

That said, taking out a level 17 wizard with a level 2 spell... that would be almost insulting to the wizard in question - don't you think? And even if you do get the spell off, can you make the opposed check to get her to cast the spell, what with the 1,000 XP cost you are asking her to incur?

And do you have any reason to think that this wizard doesn't also have crafted items? Or access to save enhancing spells? Superior Resistance gives a +6 to all saves for 24 hours, and its only a 6th level spell - one which is frequently used by most casters of that level.

[Makiru]

Also, you just can't use a Gate spell to go to the Far Realm. You quite simply need a plot device to get there due to it existing outside of time/space.

If any high level wizard could just Gate in any old Lovecraftian horror at a whim, then the Material Plane would be drowning in tentacles...more so than usual! However, that isn't the case because of how difficult it is to establish a link to get there.

[Talbot]

The plan isn't so much for taking her out... I'm reasonably confident our party can handle her. The plan is for getting her to help after we've subdued her.

She could have crafting feats, it's true, but I'm choosing to believe it's unlikely given how scarce feats are, and how rare magic is in this campaign... plus, I'm reasonably confident she's burned a few feats to increase her Necromantic skills. My main weapon is that she believes (rightly) that she's one of, if not the, only powerful magic user on the planet. There are a few clerics and paladins running around, but practically none of high enough level to be a threat to her; her main enemies are the assassin's guild and the do-gooding knights and fighters that run parts of the country. I'm planning to throw a dispel or something at her anyways, in case she is buffed up, but still, I suspect most of her resources to be tied up in Necromacy spells and feats, based on what I've seen from her so far.

Ultimately, how powerful she is isn't that relevant; I'm trying to improve my odds of being able to command her, whether they're going from 45% to 65% or from 10% to 15%.



Also, you just can't use a Gate spell to go to the Far Realm. You quite simply need a plot device to get there due to it existing outside of time/space.

If any high level wizard could just Gate in any old Lovecraftian horror at a whim, then the Material Plane would be drowning in tentacles...more so than usual! However, that isn't the case because of how difficult it is to establish a link to get there.

Well, my character knows for a fact that she opened the portal to the Far Realm that's lead to a Kaorti invasion of the material plane, so I'm reasonably confident that she has some means of reaching that realm...

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see... Undead are immune to mind-affecting stuff, so Mind Fog is out (and bluntly, it's pretty much out anyway, because if the target fails the save to the Will-save Mind Fog, the target could have just as easily failed the save to the will-save spell you wanted them to fail in the first place. It's really only useful if you plan on sending a lot of Will-save effects at someone, and those effects are very low-level).

If you expect to have the undead mostly at your mercy, a Consecrated area with a shrine to a Good deity gives... -2 to saves. A good-aligned intelligent magic item, or a Holy weapon, gives negative levels that can't be overcome - but you'd need to force the guy to wield it/them. But really, there's a shortage of will-save debuffs that affect undead.

Of course, you'll need to strip your opponent of gear.

Polymorph Any Object will affect objects, and changes creature type; that could be used, and would bypass the undead fort-save-effect immunity, but not the Polymorph immunity of a Lich. Then you could use standard debuffs, like Enervation (which would be deliciously ironic, no?).

[dextercorvia]

A 17th level wizard doesn't need a vest or cloak for saves. Superior Resistance lasts all day, and gives a +6. (Also, it's DM friendly, because the PC's can't pick it up as swag.) Expect her to have a higher than normal Wis, since she could dump Con. If the DM gave her PrC's, remember that most spellcasting PrC's are Will favored, so she could very easily have a +20. Do you have a Fatespinner handy?

Moonbolt would make her helpless if she fails the save, but it is a Will save too. Sword of Deception can stack up to a -5 penalty on the next save. Bestow Greater Curse grants a -8 penalty on saves, but again she has to fail the first Will Save. Holy Transformation imposes a -2 penalty to evil creatures within 10 feet.

[Makiru]

Well, my character knows for a fact that she opened the portal to the Far Realm that's lead to a Kaorti invasion of the material plane, so I'm reasonably confident that she has some means of reaching that realm...

I didn't know the particulars of the game, I was just running off of general setting knowledge. Well, don't think there's anything else I can contribute that hasn't been said.

[Talbot]

Yeah, I was thinking of Sword of Deception but I'm worried she'll have Spell Resistance (everything seems to in this campaign). I can turn it off for a round at a time, but it costs me two inspiration points that might be better used bolstering my saves and giving myself extra turns. Technically, just doing it for the first round the sword is active SHOULD be enough, but that seems like the kind of thing the DM can/might torpedo.

But yeah, Greater Dispel Magic + Sword of Deception (gotta love Factotum extra rounds) in round one, whatever I feel like doing in round 2 and/or 3 (maybe see if I can tag her with Unluck) as necessary, fire off Command Undead once she's at a -5 and hope for the best... should have a 50/50ish shot at working. Moonbeam would be cool, but Factotum don't get it.

[dextercorvia]

Moonbeam would be cool, but Factotum don't get it.

Factotums do, however, get UMD. Can you get (or craft) a scroll or wand of Moon Bolt?

[Talbot]

Factotums do, however, get UMD. Can you get (or craft) a scroll or wand of Moon Bolt?

Probably not. Magic items are extraordinarily rare in the campaign, and the only crafting feat I have is Wondrous Item.