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Os1ris09
2010-07-16, 02:05 AM
So I just revised my Ranger Wild Shape build and I need some advice.

Here is the build:

Ranger 5(UA wild shape variant and Champion of the Wild from CC)/Master of Many Forms 7/Nature's Warrior 1/Warshaper 3/Nature's Warrior 2/MoMF 2

Feats:

Flaw Power Attack
Flaw Combat Reflexes
1 Alertness
Human Leap Attack
Ranger Track
3 Combat Expertise
4 Improved Trip
6 Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn)
8 - Fast Wild Shape
9 Swift Wild Shape
12 Robilar's Gambit (PH2)
15 Defensive Sweep
18 Knock-down

Nature's Armament: Nature's Weapons, Water's Flow

Here is where I need advice. The general shape choices are War Troll, Cave Troll, Cryo-Hydra, winter Wolf. I wanted to know if there are other forms you guys would suggest?

Also is the Knock-Down line worth it when I already have massive reach and the enemy will more than likely provoke enough AoO's anyway? The reason for it is that they have to stand from prone which Provokes AoO's.

AND does the Fast wild Shape class feature from MoMF count for the pre-req for Swift Wild shape? It gives the same benefits as the actual feat.

Munchkin-Masher
2010-07-16, 02:19 AM
If you can get This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140428) fix for VoP approved then take it. it's better than WBL simply because all the bonuses apply even when you are wildshaped.

Don't take the original VoP it sucks too hard.

Os1ris09
2010-07-16, 04:44 AM
I don't know if I can get that variant Ok'ed with the DM. :smallfrown:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-16, 04:55 AM
You can't take Leap Attack at 1st level, it requires 8 ranks in Jump, so the earliest you could qualify is 5th level. You also can't get Defensive Sweep at level 15 when it requires a +15 BAB and both MoMF and Warshaper don't get fighter BAB. I don't see Swift Wild Shape as being worth it, you probably won't need to change shape much in combat and spending a move action to do so you'll still be able to attack (or full attack in hydra form). I wouldn't trade out the Ranger spellcasting just because you can prepare Rhino's Rush and get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power to recover it. I'd move Combat Expertise to where Leap Attack is, get Improved Trip at 3rd, Leap Attack at 6th, and Frozen Wild Shape at 9th level. Switch Knock-Down and Defensive Sweep places, and be sure to get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp.

Os1ris09
2010-07-16, 03:29 PM
You can't take Leap Attack at 1st level, it requires 8 ranks in Jump, so the earliest you could qualify is 5th level. You also can't get Defensive Sweep at level 15 when it requires a +15 BAB and both MoMF and Warshaper don't get fighter BAB. I don't see Swift Wild Shape as being worth it, you probably won't need to change shape much in combat and spending a move action to do so you'll still be able to attack (or full attack in hydra form). I wouldn't trade out the Ranger spellcasting just because you can prepare Rhino's Rush and get a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power to recover it. I'd move Combat Expertise to where Leap Attack is, get Improved Trip at 3rd, Leap Attack at 6th, and Frozen Wild Shape at 9th level. Switch Knock-Down and Defensive Sweep places, and be sure to get a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp.

So this is what your suggesting?

Flaw Power Attack
Flaw Combat Reflexes
1 Alertness
Human Combat Expertise
Ranger Track
3 Improved Trip
6 Leap Attack
8 - Fast Wild Shape
9 Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn)
12 Robilar's Gambit (PH2)
15 Knock-Down
18 Defensive Sweep

While I like that better since I get to use wands and stuff would you consider it cheesy? I don't want to over shadow any of the other melee's in combat. I am just providing cover for squishy's while in hydra form since they have to go through reach to get to them provided they are still on the ground.

Eldariel
2010-07-16, 05:03 PM
Gambit requires BAB +12; MoMF is only medium BAB. This means you cannot take it before 15. Something to keep in mind. Also, consider Warshaper 4 over the extra MoMF levels; generally the last MoMF levels aren't amazing (level 12 Wildshaping with those forms and Ex Wildshape gets you all you'll want), while the other abilities add a few nice tricks to your bag.

It may not be a bad idea to consider a level or two or Warblade/Swordsage a bit higher up; some maneuvers go great with this and if you somehow e.g. ended up with Quicksilver Motion, that would cover Swift Wildshape too.

Os1ris09
2010-07-16, 05:09 PM
Ok so would you recommend this then:

Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Nature's Warrior 1/Warshaper 3/Nature's Warrior 4

Flaw Power Attack
Flaw Combat Reflexes
1 Alertness
Human Combat Expertise
Ranger Track
3 Improved Trip
6 Leap Attack
8 - Fast Wild Shape
9 Frozen Wild Shape (Frostburn)
12 Knock-Down
15 Robilar's Gambit (PH II)
18 Defensive Sweep

taking for nature's armament: nature's weapons, water's flow, and serpent coils

OR would this build be better suited:

Ranger 5/MoMF 7/Nature's Warrior 1/Warshaper 3/Nature's Warrior 2/Warshaper 2

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-17, 12:36 AM
Either build would be good, considering Warshaper 5 allows you to change shapes as often as you want for the cost of the initial use. If your DM will let Nature's Warrior's increase in Wild Shape advance your MoMF class features, that would definitely be the one to go with.

In the early levels Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon is usually enough to protect the back row characters and win battles with superior tactics. Once you get some beefier forms (Fleshraker at level 5, Annis Hag at level 8), you can't help but overshadow any characters of a strictly melee class unless someone is Polymorphing them into a similarly beefy form. The purpose of a Ranger/MoMF build is to make a self-sufficient melee powerhouse, and with the exception of ToB classes any other nonspellcaster focused on melee is severely lacking in self-sufficiency unless they're using overpowered templates like Feral and Half-Minotaur. The power of melee classes suffers a sharp decline at around the level you'll be getting some decent forms, and the only way they'll be able to keep up is if there's a spellcaster buffing them. If one or more people play a weak/worthless character and everyone else holds back to avoid hurting their feelings, they're only dragging down the rest of the party and slowing the game down because combats take twice as long. If you're constantly pulling a little more weight than the other melee characters in the party, they may be more open to suggestions as to how they can improve their performance, such as asking the spellcasters for buffs.

Os1ris09
2010-07-17, 06:27 PM
Either build would be good, considering Warshaper 5 allows you to change shapes as often as you want for the cost of the initial use. If your DM will let Nature's Warrior's increase in Wild Shape advance your MoMF class features, that would definitely be the one to go with.

In the early levels Combat Reflexes and a reach weapon is usually enough to protect the back row characters and win battles with superior tactics. Once you get some beefier forms (Fleshraker at level 5, Annis Hag at level 8), you can't help but overshadow any characters of a strictly melee class unless someone is Polymorphing them into a similarly beefy form. The purpose of a Ranger/MoMF build is to make a self-sufficient melee powerhouse, and with the exception of ToB classes any other nonspellcaster focused on melee is severely lacking in self-sufficiency unless they're using overpowered templates like Feral and Half-Minotaur. The power of melee classes suffers a sharp decline at around the level you'll be getting some decent forms, and the only way they'll be able to keep up is if there's a spellcaster buffing them. If one or more people play a weak/worthless character and everyone else holds back to avoid hurting their feelings, they're only dragging down the rest of the party and slowing the game down because combats take twice as long. If you're constantly pulling a little more weight than the other melee characters in the party, they may be more open to suggestions as to how they can improve their performance, such as asking the spellcasters for buffs.

Ok I will see if the wilding feature would work with MoMF. Also as another question where are the feral and half-minotaur templates. :smalltongue:

The Dark Fiddler
2010-07-17, 06:39 PM
If I remember correctly, feral is from Savage Species and half-Minotaur is from a Dragon mag. Not 100% sure though.

Edit: Half-Minotaur is Dragon 313.

Os1ris09
2010-07-17, 07:36 PM
Ok another question understanding morphic body. Its the class feature that warshaper gives you. the one that +4 to Str and Con. I was wondering does that only apply to your original form or all forms?

Prodan
2010-07-17, 07:40 PM
Yes, it does.

Os1ris09
2010-07-17, 09:53 PM
Yes, it does.

I am sorry I don't understand your answer. Yes to which?

as in:

YES it apply's to all forms.

OR

YES it only apply's to your original form.

Eldariel
2010-07-18, 04:03 AM
All of Warshaper's abilities only work when shifting.

Os1ris09
2010-07-18, 04:07 AM
All of Warshaper's abilities only work when shifting.

ok. Thanks for clarifying. :smallbiggrin:

Also just a general question about reach. If you have a creature with reach, say 10 feet, and you give them a reach weapon does that increase their reach to 20 feet? 10 feet natural + 10 feet from the weapon.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-18, 04:40 AM
A reach weapon always doubles your natural reach. If you take the form of a War Troll and get 15 ft. reach with Morphic Reach, a reach weapon will double that to 30 ft. Note that only appropriately sized or larger reach weapons actually grant extended reach, and it's always double your natural reach regardless of the weapon's size.

Os1ris09
2010-07-18, 04:46 AM
A reach weapon always doubles your natural reach. If you take the form of a War Troll and get 15 ft. reach with Morphic Reach, a reach weapon will double that to 30 ft. Note that only appropriately sized or larger reach weapons actually grant extended reach, and it's always double your natural reach regardless of the weapon's size.

So if I had a sizing quisarme +1 and I change its size to large it would extend my reach to 30 feet?