Chambers
2010-07-16, 05:31 PM
Project is abandoned.
Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition
http://happyhibisci.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/shadow-of-the-colossus2.jpg
Change Log
7/19/2010 - Additions in Red. Changes in Strikeout. Address real problem driving Heroic Edition. Announce major class revisions. Dragon Shaman up in Homebrew!
Tier 1 Spellcasters can break the game. It's a brute fact. The problems with the Tier 1's aren't the classes themselves, it's their spells. Being able to end or avoid an encounter with a single action is unbalanced and it's a problem when playing in mixed Tier parties with a great disparity bewteen the characters classes. Non-spellcasters can be forced to wear magic items like christmas trees in order to compete somewhere near the casters power level.
The problem doesn't lie solely in the spells themselves, however. If you examine other non-Tier 1 primary spellcasting classes one of the main differences is the flexibility of the spellcaster. The Wizard is tops because he can learn any Sorcerer or Wizard spell. There is no limit to the characters options, whereas other classes and even other spellcasters have set limits on how many spells they know. Some of the most balanced "primary spellcaster" classes, such as the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept, have a very limited number of spells known but are more free in using them.
This is the idea that the Heroic Edition will try to emulate. Characters have power sources that grant them a limited number of abilities but they are able to bring those abilities into play more often. I will strive to create, modify, or destroy abilities so that while each class shines where it's supposed to, it doesn't make other classes obsolete. That's one of the key components to an enjoyable game - everyone gets to play their part and feel they accomplished something. It's not the same when the Fighter gets that feeling solely because the Wizard held back and let the Fighter have the spotlight. The idea that characters should be designed to work together is one of the core concepts I'm working with.
So let's get rid of the limitless spells and the mundane magic items and give each class abilities that it can use to actually be useful and fun. Of course, any class can be fun. Enjoying the game is not necessarily dependent on having an optimized character. But having a poorly designed character class can lead to not-fun when the character is teamed up with classes that are more powerful by default.
It's not Iron Heroes because there is Magic that doesn't try to kill the character when they use it. Each character has their own magic. I suppose it's similar in concept to 4E where each class has a power source, but this isn't as specifically tailored to each class as that system is. What I'm doing here isn't surgery that detailed. More like hacking something apart then sticking it to something else and holding it for five minutes, hoping it will stick when you let go.
My initial thoughts have changed from simply adding incarnum and initiating to every class. I'll concede it as my first attempt to fix the system. What I think will work better is redesigned classes so that they have unique, special abilities that fit their niche without overshadowing another classes spot.
There are five basic magic systems at work here. Auras, Bindings, Invocations, Maneuvers, and Meldshaping. No spells. No Magic Marts.
With Band-Aid Clerics gone the damage and healing rules will need revision. Easy. We're using the Reserve Points variant and some classes have the ability to heal. Abilities that granted a bonus against spells will be changed to grant a bonus versus the above magic systems. Also easy.
Before we get into the details of how the adaptions will work here's a brief overview of what is removed and what is added.
{table=head]Removed|Added
Spells|Redesigning classes
Magic Marts|Limited Magic Items
Primary Spellcasters|Reserve Points
[/table]
Rules of the Game. (SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/)
Taking Class.
There are no Archivists, Beguilers, Clerics, Dread Necromancers, Factotums, Favored Souls, Sorcerers, Spellthiefs, Warmages or Wizards. No Psionics either. (At least for now. The psionics ban isn't permanent, just until we get the base classes sorted out.)
There are Barbarians, Bards, Binders, Crusaders, Dragon Shamans, Dragonfire Adepts, Druids, Duskblade, Hexblades, Knights, Marshalls, Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Scouts, Swordsages, Warblades & Warlocks.
Making Saves.
That +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spell and spell-like effects that Dwarves get? It applies now to all spell-like or supernatural abilities. Any other saving throw bonus against spells or spell-like effects works the same way (Hexblades Arcane Resistance, for example).
Avoiding Damage.
Characters receive half their Base Attack Bonus as a Dodge bonus to their Armor Class.
Optionally DM's may use Armor As Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) variant in addition to the Dodge bonus.
Healing Damage. (Reserve Points) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm)
If a character receives any magical healing, that healing is applied first to the character’s lost hit points. Any excess healing left over after the character’s hit points are restored to full normal is applied to increase the character’s current reserve point total (up to its normal maximum). Fast Healing does not heal Reserve Points.
Ability Drain does not exist. All abilities that reference Ability Drain instead do Ability Damage.
Magic Items See Post #18 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8957783&postcount=18) for proposed changes to this.
There are four kinds of magic items. Magic weapons, armor (& shields), ability score enhancement items, and skill bonus enhancement items. Weapons and Armor may have special abilities in place of enhancement bonuses.
Here's how magic items are created. Remove all the Item Creation feats. The ability to make a magic item depends on your ranks in the appropriate Craft skill. Weaponsmithing allows you to enhance weapons, Armorsmithing allows you to enhance armors and shields, Wondrous Item allows you to enhance clothing and other items to provide ability and skill enhancement bonuses.
Crafting the base item follows the standard rules for crafting. Enhancing the item follows a modified version of the magic item creation rules.
1 day per 1,000gp in the item's base price, at least 1 day.
Weapon, Armor, & Shield enhancement bonuses require the creater to have at least 4 times the enhancement bonus in ranks in the appropriate craft skill. (+2 Armor requires 8 ranks in Craft: Armorsmithing).
Ability enhancement bonuses require the creator to have a minimum number of ranks in craft depending on the enhancement bonus. +2 requires 8 ranks, +4 requires 12 ranks, +6 requires 16 ranks.
Skill enhancement bonuses require the creator to have at least 3 times the enhancement bonus in ranks in Craft: Wondrous Item. (+3 bonus to Hide requires 9 ranks).
There is no XP cost component. Magic items cost half the base price to enhance an item. To improve a magic item's enhancement, find the difference between the new cost and the current cost. Half that difference is the cost to improve the enhancement and it takes 1 day per 1,000gp of the total difference in cost, at least 1 day.
The DM may choose to include other magic items (rings of evasion, bracers of archery, etc). These items should be rare and cannot be created by the characters.
Getting Skilled.
Increase all class skill points by 2. Fighter gets 4, Rogue gets all of them 10. Use Magic Device doesn't exist.
Fixing Stances.
The stance acquisition progression for the Crusader & Warblade doesn't work right. A single classed Crusader can't even learn his highest level stance without taking the Martial Stance feat. Crusaders & Warblades now learn new stances at 1st, 5th, 10th, & 16th level.
Revising Classes
Classes that need to be redesigned will be modified to fit with the concept of Heroic Edition - everyone has a niche and is good at it, but their class abilities don't render another class obsolete.
Two changes for the Warlock. Deceive Item is now simply Deceive and allows the Warlock to take 10 on Bluff checks. Imbue Item instead allows the Warlock to enhance magic items as if he had (warlock level +3) number of ranks in the required Craft skill.
Get Your Magic On.
This list of abilities will change, but I'll leave it for now as a placeholder.
List of classes.
Barbarian
Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160794)
Binder
Crusader
Dragon Shaman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160615)
Dragonfire Adept
Druid
Duskblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9008269)
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8974142)
Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161302)
Knight
Marshall
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162365)
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161222)
Scout
Swordsage
Warblade
Warlock
Awaiting Revision.
Barbarian, Druid, Knight, Marshall, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Scout.
Playing the Game.
Soulmelds and Maneuvers/Stances allow the non-casters to compete with the few remaining caster classes, which are limited in scope and function. Each caster class has a specific focus and specific abilities, eliminating the broad access regular spellcasters had. Binders can still choose among the Vestiges, but are still restricted by having a limited amount of abilities to use at a single time.
There are no Magic Marts because the types of magic items are very limited. Any skilled crafter can enhance an item without paying XP, which means that the characters can enhance items themselves as they gain levels. Reflavor it as strengthening the bond with the item, or being able to invest more soul energy into it, or what have you.
Without all the spells that characters normally needed to be able to defend against there is a reduction in the need to skyrocket the characters saving throws and defenses. Armor class and attack bonuses between characters should be within reasonable levels of achievment without having to rely on a lucky shot.
The changes require some foresight by the DM. If none of the characters can Fly or fight at range, a flying creature attacking from range will probably TPK the party. Know what the party can do and what they are able to overcome. Doesn't mean you should make encounters a push-over; they should be challenging but do able. And fun.
Characters should be able to heal a limited amount, enough to get through two or three encounters. No magic restores Reserve Points, so they are the limiting factor in how many encounters a day the party can handle. Particularly tough encounters, like against opponents that deal ability damage or energy drain, will be hard for the party as there aren't any Clerics around to instantly heal/remove the effect.
The game is intended to have powerful characters that can do amazing things without some characters being inherently more powerful than others to the point where they break the game. While the addition of meldshaping and initating increase the numbers and options part of the game, removing spells and most magic items helps to reduce it. Hopefully there's a balance. So take these rules and try them out if your group wants to play D&D without worrying about having to balance the Wizards vs the Monk in the party, or wearing 10 different magic items and carrying another dozen or so in your bag of holding. Go out there and slay the monsters, rescue the princess, and get carried through the streets. And take this magic sword. It's dangerous to go alone.
If you run a PbP game here using these rules please use the [3.5/Heroic] tag, and let me know about it! :smallsmile:
Please comment and let me know what you think!
Possible questions to ponder:
What about the rule changes do you agree with?
What about them do you disagree with?
Is there a part that doesn't make sense or isn't clearly explained?
Any character builds immediately come to mind that break the game?
Given these rules what character would you like to play and what type of game would you like to play in?
Dungeons & Dragons Heroic Edition
http://happyhibisci.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/shadow-of-the-colossus2.jpg
Change Log
7/19/2010 - Additions in Red. Changes in Strikeout. Address real problem driving Heroic Edition. Announce major class revisions. Dragon Shaman up in Homebrew!
Tier 1 Spellcasters can break the game. It's a brute fact. The problems with the Tier 1's aren't the classes themselves, it's their spells. Being able to end or avoid an encounter with a single action is unbalanced and it's a problem when playing in mixed Tier parties with a great disparity bewteen the characters classes. Non-spellcasters can be forced to wear magic items like christmas trees in order to compete somewhere near the casters power level.
The problem doesn't lie solely in the spells themselves, however. If you examine other non-Tier 1 primary spellcasting classes one of the main differences is the flexibility of the spellcaster. The Wizard is tops because he can learn any Sorcerer or Wizard spell. There is no limit to the characters options, whereas other classes and even other spellcasters have set limits on how many spells they know. Some of the most balanced "primary spellcaster" classes, such as the Warlock and Dragonfire Adept, have a very limited number of spells known but are more free in using them.
This is the idea that the Heroic Edition will try to emulate. Characters have power sources that grant them a limited number of abilities but they are able to bring those abilities into play more often. I will strive to create, modify, or destroy abilities so that while each class shines where it's supposed to, it doesn't make other classes obsolete. That's one of the key components to an enjoyable game - everyone gets to play their part and feel they accomplished something. It's not the same when the Fighter gets that feeling solely because the Wizard held back and let the Fighter have the spotlight. The idea that characters should be designed to work together is one of the core concepts I'm working with.
So let's get rid of the limitless spells and the mundane magic items and give each class abilities that it can use to actually be useful and fun. Of course, any class can be fun. Enjoying the game is not necessarily dependent on having an optimized character. But having a poorly designed character class can lead to not-fun when the character is teamed up with classes that are more powerful by default.
It's not Iron Heroes because there is Magic that doesn't try to kill the character when they use it. Each character has their own magic. I suppose it's similar in concept to 4E where each class has a power source, but this isn't as specifically tailored to each class as that system is. What I'm doing here isn't surgery that detailed. More like hacking something apart then sticking it to something else and holding it for five minutes, hoping it will stick when you let go.
My initial thoughts have changed from simply adding incarnum and initiating to every class. I'll concede it as my first attempt to fix the system. What I think will work better is redesigned classes so that they have unique, special abilities that fit their niche without overshadowing another classes spot.
There are five basic magic systems at work here. Auras, Bindings, Invocations, Maneuvers, and Meldshaping. No spells. No Magic Marts.
With Band-Aid Clerics gone the damage and healing rules will need revision. Easy. We're using the Reserve Points variant and some classes have the ability to heal. Abilities that granted a bonus against spells will be changed to grant a bonus versus the above magic systems. Also easy.
Before we get into the details of how the adaptions will work here's a brief overview of what is removed and what is added.
{table=head]Removed|Added
Spells|Redesigning classes
Magic Marts|Limited Magic Items
Primary Spellcasters|Reserve Points
[/table]
Rules of the Game. (SRD) (http://www.d20srd.org/)
Taking Class.
There are no Archivists, Beguilers, Clerics, Dread Necromancers, Factotums, Favored Souls, Sorcerers, Spellthiefs, Warmages or Wizards. No Psionics either. (At least for now. The psionics ban isn't permanent, just until we get the base classes sorted out.)
There are Barbarians, Bards, Binders, Crusaders, Dragon Shamans, Dragonfire Adepts, Druids, Duskblade, Hexblades, Knights, Marshalls, Monks, Paladins, Rangers, Rogues, Scouts, Swordsages, Warblades & Warlocks.
Making Saves.
That +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spell and spell-like effects that Dwarves get? It applies now to all spell-like or supernatural abilities. Any other saving throw bonus against spells or spell-like effects works the same way (Hexblades Arcane Resistance, for example).
Avoiding Damage.
Characters receive half their Base Attack Bonus as a Dodge bonus to their Armor Class.
Optionally DM's may use Armor As Damage Reduction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) variant in addition to the Dodge bonus.
Healing Damage. (Reserve Points) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm)
If a character receives any magical healing, that healing is applied first to the character’s lost hit points. Any excess healing left over after the character’s hit points are restored to full normal is applied to increase the character’s current reserve point total (up to its normal maximum). Fast Healing does not heal Reserve Points.
Ability Drain does not exist. All abilities that reference Ability Drain instead do Ability Damage.
Magic Items See Post #18 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8957783&postcount=18) for proposed changes to this.
There are four kinds of magic items. Magic weapons, armor (& shields), ability score enhancement items, and skill bonus enhancement items. Weapons and Armor may have special abilities in place of enhancement bonuses.
Here's how magic items are created. Remove all the Item Creation feats. The ability to make a magic item depends on your ranks in the appropriate Craft skill. Weaponsmithing allows you to enhance weapons, Armorsmithing allows you to enhance armors and shields, Wondrous Item allows you to enhance clothing and other items to provide ability and skill enhancement bonuses.
Crafting the base item follows the standard rules for crafting. Enhancing the item follows a modified version of the magic item creation rules.
1 day per 1,000gp in the item's base price, at least 1 day.
Weapon, Armor, & Shield enhancement bonuses require the creater to have at least 4 times the enhancement bonus in ranks in the appropriate craft skill. (+2 Armor requires 8 ranks in Craft: Armorsmithing).
Ability enhancement bonuses require the creator to have a minimum number of ranks in craft depending on the enhancement bonus. +2 requires 8 ranks, +4 requires 12 ranks, +6 requires 16 ranks.
Skill enhancement bonuses require the creator to have at least 3 times the enhancement bonus in ranks in Craft: Wondrous Item. (+3 bonus to Hide requires 9 ranks).
There is no XP cost component. Magic items cost half the base price to enhance an item. To improve a magic item's enhancement, find the difference between the new cost and the current cost. Half that difference is the cost to improve the enhancement and it takes 1 day per 1,000gp of the total difference in cost, at least 1 day.
The DM may choose to include other magic items (rings of evasion, bracers of archery, etc). These items should be rare and cannot be created by the characters.
Getting Skilled.
Increase all class skill points by 2. Fighter gets 4, Rogue gets all of them 10. Use Magic Device doesn't exist.
Fixing Stances.
The stance acquisition progression for the Crusader & Warblade doesn't work right. A single classed Crusader can't even learn his highest level stance without taking the Martial Stance feat. Crusaders & Warblades now learn new stances at 1st, 5th, 10th, & 16th level.
Revising Classes
Classes that need to be redesigned will be modified to fit with the concept of Heroic Edition - everyone has a niche and is good at it, but their class abilities don't render another class obsolete.
Two changes for the Warlock. Deceive Item is now simply Deceive and allows the Warlock to take 10 on Bluff checks. Imbue Item instead allows the Warlock to enhance magic items as if he had (warlock level +3) number of ranks in the required Craft skill.
Get Your Magic On.
This list of abilities will change, but I'll leave it for now as a placeholder.
List of classes.
Barbarian
Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160794)
Binder
Crusader
Dragon Shaman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160615)
Dragonfire Adept
Druid
Duskblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9008269)
Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8974142)
Hexblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161302)
Knight
Marshall
Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162365)
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161222)
Scout
Swordsage
Warblade
Warlock
Awaiting Revision.
Barbarian, Druid, Knight, Marshall, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Scout.
Playing the Game.
Soulmelds and Maneuvers/Stances allow the non-casters to compete with the few remaining caster classes, which are limited in scope and function. Each caster class has a specific focus and specific abilities, eliminating the broad access regular spellcasters had. Binders can still choose among the Vestiges, but are still restricted by having a limited amount of abilities to use at a single time.
There are no Magic Marts because the types of magic items are very limited. Any skilled crafter can enhance an item without paying XP, which means that the characters can enhance items themselves as they gain levels. Reflavor it as strengthening the bond with the item, or being able to invest more soul energy into it, or what have you.
Without all the spells that characters normally needed to be able to defend against there is a reduction in the need to skyrocket the characters saving throws and defenses. Armor class and attack bonuses between characters should be within reasonable levels of achievment without having to rely on a lucky shot.
The changes require some foresight by the DM. If none of the characters can Fly or fight at range, a flying creature attacking from range will probably TPK the party. Know what the party can do and what they are able to overcome. Doesn't mean you should make encounters a push-over; they should be challenging but do able. And fun.
Characters should be able to heal a limited amount, enough to get through two or three encounters. No magic restores Reserve Points, so they are the limiting factor in how many encounters a day the party can handle. Particularly tough encounters, like against opponents that deal ability damage or energy drain, will be hard for the party as there aren't any Clerics around to instantly heal/remove the effect.
The game is intended to have powerful characters that can do amazing things without some characters being inherently more powerful than others to the point where they break the game. While the addition of meldshaping and initating increase the numbers and options part of the game, removing spells and most magic items helps to reduce it. Hopefully there's a balance. So take these rules and try them out if your group wants to play D&D without worrying about having to balance the Wizards vs the Monk in the party, or wearing 10 different magic items and carrying another dozen or so in your bag of holding. Go out there and slay the monsters, rescue the princess, and get carried through the streets. And take this magic sword. It's dangerous to go alone.
If you run a PbP game here using these rules please use the [3.5/Heroic] tag, and let me know about it! :smallsmile:
Please comment and let me know what you think!
Possible questions to ponder:
What about the rule changes do you agree with?
What about them do you disagree with?
Is there a part that doesn't make sense or isn't clearly explained?
Any character builds immediately come to mind that break the game?
Given these rules what character would you like to play and what type of game would you like to play in?