PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Is multiclassing ever any good, except for dips and theurge types?



Thurbane
2010-07-16, 08:38 PM
Just curious...are there any examples of multiclassing being good in a build, other than dips, or for Theurge types (i.e. qualifying for a PrC that advances features of both classes)?

Do the Daring Outlaw/Master Spellthief/Swift Hunter type feats help with this, or are they still mainly geared towards level dips?

Obviously, multiclassing is generally accepted to be horrible for casters, but how about for martial or skillmonkey types?

DragoonWraith
2010-07-16, 08:41 PM
Multiclassing is quite good for most non-casters, since a lot of them are front-loaded. Monk 2 is the last level you should ever take of Monk; Paladin 2 has most features of the Paladin and Paladin 5 makes sure you get all of them; Barbarian 1 for Rage/Pounce is quite worthwhile but you don't get a lot for getting more levels, etc etc.

For casters, though, unless (and usually even though) you're planning on a Theurge PrC, multiclassing is pretty much always a bad move.

Yorrin
2010-07-16, 08:41 PM
Well, depends what you mean by dips. I have a lot of builds that take 2-6 levels of a bunch of different classes that are quite effective.

On the other hand, the most powerful/cheezy/ridiculous builds generally take a 1-2 level dip at most. (Barbarian and/or Cleric make the best 1-lvl dips for most builds)

Kylarra
2010-07-16, 08:42 PM
Multiclassing is quite good for most non-casters, since a lot of them are front-loaded. Monk 2 is the last level you should ever take of Monk; Paladin 2 has most features of the Paladin and Paladin 5 makes sure you get all of them; Barbarian 1 for Rage/Pounce is quite worthwhile but you don't get a lot for getting more levels, etc etc.
That does emphasize the "except for dips" aspect of the title, to be honest.

I've found that most of my builds have only dips or are pure base->PrC.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-16, 08:46 PM
The Theurge feats help a ton with some multiclassing, particularly Ranger/Scout, which is usually seen as Ranger 16 (or 4)/Scout 4 (or 16) or some combination of the two totally ten levels with another 10 with some PrC.

Master Spellthief itself makes Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer/Wizard Casting PrC 5 pretty sweet, as it basically replaces Practiced Spellcaster with some added umph.

Martial types and skill monkeys can get some mileage out of multiclassing, but they are usually in the form of 1 or 2 level dips. I'm a fan of Dungeoncrashing Fighter 6/Warblade X/Martial Adept PrCs Y, maybe throwing in Exotic Weapon Master here or there for taste.

For skill monkeys, most of them love Factotum 8 or a few levels of rogue before grabbing PrCs that suit their style, generally Chameleon for the former, Assassin for most everyone, and things like Dread Commando for all those d6 lovers.

Thurbane
2010-07-16, 08:53 PM
Well, depends what you mean by dips.
I personally consider anything less than 4 levels a dip - definitely 1 or 2 levels.

Front loaded classes "suffer" badly from this: 2 levels of Fighter for feats; 2 levels of Paladin for CHA to saves; 1 level of Barbarian for +10 movement etc.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-16, 08:55 PM
Multiclassing is actually pretty viable, if done right. In a PrC-less game (yes, they happen) it's the only way to customize.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-16, 09:37 PM
As far as skill monkeys go, I'm a big fan of the Bardic Knack varient in PHB2.

Three good base classes for Bardic Knowledge/Lore are the Cloistered Cleric varient, the Filidh (varient wizard from Dragon Magazine) and of course the Bard... or even the Bardic Sage varient that gets a +2 bonus to Bardic Knowledge.

Cloistered Cleric is a even more powerful 1 level dip than cleric, especially since you get the Knowledge Domain as a third domain regardless of deity and you can drop it for the Knowledge Devotion feat. Also because your primary class usually limits the kind of armor that works best or already gives you proficency. The extra skill points are nice.

Pride is one of my favorite domains, as it lets you reroll any natural 1 when making a save. And of course, even though you must keep the second roll, its not going to be worse than the first.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-07-16, 09:40 PM
Oh, Bard 4-6 also works well with Crusader/Warblade and Song of the White Raven. You'll generally have a few magic tricks while primarily beating face with +significantd6s of fire or sonic damage.

Optimystik
2010-07-16, 09:43 PM
Multiclassing is actually pretty viable, if done right. In a PrC-less game (yes, they happen) it's the only way to customize.

Case in point - Neverwinter Nights, which has some of the most awful PrCs to ever see the light of day.

Kylarra
2010-07-16, 09:45 PM
Case in point - Neverwinter Nights, which has some of the most awful PrCs to ever see the light of day.I liked uh, weaponmaster I think it was.

Milskidasith
2010-07-16, 09:46 PM
Multiclassing is actually pretty viable, if done right. In a PrC-less game (yes, they happen) it's the only way to customize.

Well, the only way to customize besides feat selection, skill selection, spell selection, manuever selection, equipment selection, and stat allocation, yes. I'll grant you that skills, spells, and maneuvers are obviously not going to matter on a lot of PCs, but you can have two wildly different X class 20s.

FMArthur
2010-07-16, 09:51 PM
Factotum 8 goes well with a wide variety of other classes and is a very common cutoff point. I think taking 8 levels of Factotum may be more common than 9 or more.

DragoonWraith
2010-07-16, 10:20 PM
Yeah, I was going to point out Factotum 8. And I find Binders and Meldshapers do an excellent job being meaningful for 1, 5, 10, or 20 levels, which is a testament to the quality of those classes, IMO.

Kylarra
2010-07-16, 10:24 PM
Due to the way IL stacks, martial adepts tend to be good taken in multiple dips, ie alternating class levels or just taken multiple times for a few levels each time.

Optimystik
2010-07-16, 10:33 PM
You can also "multi-class" by taking a PrC that goes in a different direction than that of your base class, but makes you more well-rounded. For example, Fighter + War Mind, Soulknife + Pyrokineticist, Warlock + Virtuoso, that sort of thing.

Runestar
2010-07-16, 10:37 PM
I have seen warblade/swordsage builds which seem fairly viable on the CO boards. Think they recommend warblade12/swordsage8. Basically, you trade higher lv maneuvers for more versatility, but this isn't as crippling as multiclassing a caster since maneuvers don't really improve quadratically in power anyways.

true_shinken
2010-07-17, 09:11 AM
Daring Outlaw and Swift Hunter builds can be Rogue 10/Swashbuckler 10 or Ranger 10/Scout 10 pretty easily while still being effective.

AvatarZero
2010-07-17, 11:50 AM
Master Spellthief itself makes Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer/Wizard Casting PrC 5 pretty sweet, as it basically replaces Practiced Spellcaster with some added umph.

Not to derail the thread, but doesn't that leave you unable to recover your lost caster levels for non-divination spells?

Fax Celestis
2010-07-17, 12:30 PM
Not to derail the thread, but doesn't that leave you unable to recover your lost caster levels for non-divination spells?

No, because your caster level = arcane caster level + spellthief level. It steps around the reduction by setting it to a fixed value.

Flickerdart
2010-07-17, 12:50 PM
Multiclassing with Ardent is a great way to get psionic power into your build.