Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH] [Archive]

View Full Version : Will the Real Holy Warrior Please Stand Up? [Class fix+1 PrC, 3.5, PEACH]

Pages : [1] 2

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 02:55 AM

Text:
So, by my opinion, the Paladin is easily one of the worst designed classes in D&D. The soulknife and samurai are both admittedly worse, but the paladin is the most... extreme example. Why? The mechanic of the fall.
Now, honestly, I like the fall. You could just do away with it, remove the alignment requirement and such, and then make the paladin simply a spiritual warrior, but I like it as is. I like the idea of a holy warrior who won't kill an innocent in order to save a whole town, in one of those contrived circumstances people on this forum tend to think up. It's not that the paladin doesn't realize that it would be better to save a town at the expense of the innocent, or doesn't care: it's that the paladin's unwavering faith, the thing that gives him power, tells him that there's another way, and forces him to find it.
So, I'm okay with the fall... but the point of the paladin is that he gains his powers from the fall, from his unwavering faith. In other words: he's powerful.

And this is where WotC failed. Back in AD&D, the paladin was just like the fighter, but flat out better. In 3.5, the paladin is kindof like the fighter, but it doesn't have stuff like the dungeoncrasher variant to make it usable. The point of the fall and the alignment restrictions is a penalty and a restriction to balance out the paladin being more powerful than other fighter type classes.

So, let's succeed where WotC failed. I've seen a lot of paladin fixes, but most of them bring it up to mid-high tier 4: I'm shooting for something that'll be competitive with a CoDzilla.
...Wish me luck.:smalleek:

The Real Paladin

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/018/1/4/Undead_Paladin_by_Forge_T.jpg
A paladin serves to destroy evil, even after death.

Alignment: A paladin must be lawful good. No exceptions.

In addition, the paladin has a code of conduct.
The Paladin must always act with honor, respect legitimate and just authority (so long as said authority does not command him to commit an evil act), help those in need, never under any circumstances harm an innocent or commit an evil act, and work to uphold the law at all times unless said law would go against the other tenets of the code. A paladin can't kill a baby to save a village. Unless it is justified under the law, killing someone just because they are evil is considered an evil act, and will cause the paladin to fall- all evil creatures deserve redemption. The paladin must have just reason to believe the evil creature in question is going to do him or an innocent harm to harm the evil creatures.
A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts.
A paladin may only kill a neutral creature if they are in the process of attacking the paladin, his allies, or an innocent, or doing something that would help bring about the harm of the paladin, his allies, or an innocent.
The paladin may, under no circumstances, kill a good creature.
Nonsentient creatures do not extend to this clause, though the paladin may not kill a nonsentient creature if it would be illegal to do so.
Any paladin who ceases to be lawful good or knowingly violates this code of conduct is considered to have a charisma score of 1 until proper atonement is made.

The very existence of paladins and a demonstrable cosmic Power of Good presupposes that Good is always possible. It is not possible that there is no better option than killing [a] child. That is the entirety of what it means to be a paladin, or indeed, for Paladins to exist. It means that evil is not necessary, however much the tyrant may delude himself. It means that there is always a Better Way.

It's like asking who would win in a fight between Jesus and Cthulhu--it's a meaningless question, because the existence of one in the universe would, almost by definition, preclude the existence of the other.If the world has paladins, then there is a third option that saves the child and the village. If there is no third option, then there can be no paladins, and it is meaningless to discuss 'falls'.

This is not meant to say that the paladin should always be able to save everyone. Sometimes, circumstances will make that impossible. But he should always try to save everybody, and he should never be required to take an evil action to advance the cause of Good. In a world where paladins are possible, 'necessary Evil' is a lie tempters tell to corrupt the righteous, and the corrupt tell themselves to hide from their own guilt.

So long as the paladin does not fall to such temptations- so long as the paladin tries to find the third option in these situations- the paladin should not fall. This doesn't mean the third option is practical, or even possible, but the paladin should always at least try.

This code may be altered in minor ways, subject to DM approval. In general, however, it must remain strongly lawful good, and be founded in ideals as opposed to practicality.

Abilities: Strength and constitution are important, as they are for any melee class. Wisdom now takes a backseat to charisma- in fact, wisdom has no place for the paladin, aside from skills & will saves.

HD: d12

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Holy Smite, Just Templar | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Turn Undead, Unwavering Devotion | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Divine Grace | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Swift Crusader 1/day, Special Ability | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Justiciar 1/day, Holy Strike | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Turn Demon | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Swift Crusader 2/day | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +6 | Sacrifice 1/day | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Justiciar 2/day, Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +7 | Turn Anarch | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Swift Crusader 3/day | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +8 | Special Ability | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +9 | Turn Mutant, Sacrifice 2/day | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +9 | Justiciar 3/day, Holy Sacrifice | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Swift Crusader 4/day, Special Ability | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +5 | +10 | Destroy The Destroyer | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Turn Evil | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +11 | Holy Surge, Special Ability, Sacrifice 3/day | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +12 | Ineffable Justiciar, Swift Crusader 5/day | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2[/table]

Class Skills: Concentration, Craft , Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Rope.

Skill Points per Level: 4+Int Modifier.

Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all armor and all shields (including tower shields). Paladins are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as the maul, warmace and bastard sword.

Spellcasting:

A Paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list (see below). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When the table indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The paladin's selection of spells is extremely limited. A paladin begins play knowing two 1st level spells of your choice. He also knows a number of 0th level spells (orisons) equal to his Charisma modifier. At every new paladin level, he gains two new spells drawn from the paladin spell list. These spells must be spells he is capable of casting, so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level paladin spell, but could learn a 2nd level paladin spell. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a paladin knows is not affected by his Charisma score: he learns two spells per level regardless.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third paladin level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a paladin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the paladin "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level paladin spell the paladin can cast. A paladin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a paladin need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Spell List:

Orisons: As a cleric.
1st-4th levels: as a WotC paladin, plus Order's Wrath & Holy Smite as 3rd level spells.
5th level: Bolt of Glory, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Hallow, Hold Monster, Lesser Planar Ally, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, True Seeing, Wall of Fire.
6th level: Antimagic Field, Bull's Strength (mass), Crown of Glory, Dictum, Dispel Magic (greater), Eagle's Splendor (mass), Heal, Holy Word, Power Word: Blind, Sunbeam.

Aura of Good (ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. Any evil creature using detect good on the paladin must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha mod) or the spell immediately ends and they are dazed for 1 round.

Detect Evil (su): The paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell, as well as detect good. He can tell whether a creature is good or evil at a glance, and he can concentrate to gain the full effects of the spell.

Holy Smite (su): The paladin is infused with divine energies: any evil creature damaged by the paladin takes additional damage equal to the paladin's class level.

Just Templar: The Paladin is recognizable as a servant of justice: they gain a +4 bonus to all ability & skill checks made to sway a judge or otherwise as a part of the legal process.
Additionally, the paladin gains a bonus to diplomacy and sense motive checks equal to 1/2 his class levels: these bonuses stack.

Turn Undead (su): The Paladin may turn undead as a cleric. The paladin may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day. If the charisma modifier is negative, it will subtract from this amount, to a minimum of 0.

Unwavering Devotion (ex): The Paladin is immune to fear, and gains a +4 bonus versus charms and compulsions cast by evil creatures.

Divine Grace (su): The Paladin gains a bonus to all saves equal to her charisma modifier. The Paladin can have a penalty from low charisma.

Swift Crusader (su): a number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may either cast a spell that normally takes a standard action or turn undead (or anything else she can turn) as a swift action.
Additionally, the paladin may expend one use of Swift Crusader to channel a spell through a melee attack, during either a standard attack or a full attack action.

Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the paladin gains a special ability chosen from the pool at the bottom of the page.

Justiciar (ex): A number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may, as a free action, consider any creatures evil until the end of the round for the purposes of spells or abilities originating from the paladin. For example, the paladin may expend a use to attack a non-evil enemy and still gain the bonus to damage from holy smite.
This does not extend to the paladin's code of conduct- for example, if he kills an innocent, good creature with this ability, the paladin will still fall.

Holy Strike (su): The paladin's weapon is guided by divine forces to evil foes. He gains a bonus equal to his charisma modifier to attack rolls against evil creatures. In addition, every time the paladin misses an evil creature due to concealment, he may reroll his miss chance percentile to see if he actually hits.
The bonus to attack can become a penalty from low charisma.

Turn Demon: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the evil subtype as he would normally turn undead.

Sacrifice: Starting at 9th level, once per day (and an additional once per day per 5 levels thereafter) the paladin may, as a free action, pour all of his life into his ideals. For a number of rounds equal to his charisma modifier, he glows with holy fire, ignited by his very life. This gives him a number of benefits.
First, he gains a +4 sacred bonus to strength & charisma for the duration (which extends the duration accordingly).
His weapons are considered one size category larger for purposes of damage, and the holy fires extend to the weapon, letting it deal an additional 1d12 damage per 5 paladin levels, up to 4d12 at level 20. Half of this damage is fire, and half is sacred.
Any spells with the evil descriptor, or SLAs from creatures with the evil subtype cast against the paladin that allow SR automatically fail.

At the end of this duration, the paladin collapses to the ground, at -1 hp and stable. If the paladin is of a type that would be destroyed at that hp total, he collapses to the ground at 1 hp and unconscious for a number of rounds equal to his sacrifice duration.

Turn Anarch: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the chaotic subtype as he would normally turn undead.

Turn Mutant: The Paladin may turn evil aligned aberrations as he would normally turn undead.

Holy Sacrifice: When the Sacrifice duration expires and the Paladin collapses, the fires surrounding him explode, washing over everything in the vicinity. Everything in a 10' radius is affected as if by a Holy Word or Dictum spell (Paladin's choice) cast at the Paladin's HD. The Paladin may end his Sacrifice prematurely in order to enjoy this effect; if he does so, the radius increases by 10' for every round he had remaining.

Destroy the Destroyer: The Paladin's bonus to attack and damage against evil creatures due to Holy Strike and Holy Smite is doubled when the creature in question is chaotic evil. In addition, the paladin's charisma modifier is doubled for the purposes of turning checks & turning damage against chaotic evil creatures.

Turn Evil: The Paladin may turn any evil aligned creature as he would turn undead.

Holy Surge: No more than once per day, the paladin may expel all his divine power in one surge: as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the paladin may cast both a miracle and wish spell with no xp cost. The paladin immediately "falls" as a part of this action: the atonement spell cast uses half the xp that would have been spent on the wish & miracle spell.
A paladin will often use this ability in times of dire need, such as when presented a scenario where, whatever the choice, he will fall. It may only be used in the pursuit of non-selfish purposes, and if the paladin attempts to use it for personal gain (using the wish to gain material wealth that will be kept by himself, using the miracle to cast an atonement to circumvent the fall, etc.) he simply falls and does not get the wish or the miracle.

Ineffable Justiciar: As Justiciar, but permanent. The bonuses presented from destroy the destroyer now extend to all actually evil creatures (not including creatures considered evil under Ineffable Justiciar).

Special Abilities:

Exalted Paladin:
The paladin instantly gains a bonus exalted feat.

Special Mount:
The paladin adds phantom steed to his spell list. Instead of using the statistics for the phantom steed in the spell description, the paladin uses the statistics of a heavy warhorse or light warhorse (or war pony or riding dog, if a small sized paladin), modified as so. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#thePaladinsMount) It gains all of the abilities from water walk on, but keeps its normal speed.

Defender:
All allies within a 30 ft. radius of the paladin gain a divine bonus to saving throws equal to 1/2 his charisma modifier.

Crusading Defender:
Requires Defender
The paladin and all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain DR/Good or Lawful equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.

Healing Defender:
Requires Defender
The Paladin & all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain fast healing equal to the paladin's charisma modifier.

Defending Daeva:
Requires Crusading Defender
The paladin gains the effects of a permanent magic circle against evil out to 30' as a supernatural ability. A paladin with Knight Templar also gains the effects of a magic circle against chaos.

Crusader's Mettle:
Gain an additional use per day of Swift Crusader.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.

Expanded Zeal:
The paladin may add any spell from the bard or cleric spell list to his spells known of a level no higher than his current highest paladin spell known. This spell is of a level one higher than normal: for example, if a paladin of at least 6th level took heroism from the bard spell list, he would cast it as a 3rd level spell.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Each time, it applies to a different spell.

Knight Templar:
All chaotic creatures are considered evil for the purposes of holy strike, holy smite, turn evil, and ineffable justiciar/destroy the destroyer. The paladin gains detect chaos as well as detect evil, and projects an aura of law as well as good.

Improved Turning:
The paladin gains +1 use of turning per day, +1 to turning checks, and +1 to turning damage.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.

Staggering Turn:
Requires: Improved Turning.
All creatures successfully turned have their movement speeds reduced by 10' for the duration.

Improved Staggering Turn:
Requires: Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are slowed, as the spell, for the duration.

Potent Turn:
Requires: Improved Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are dazed for the duration.

Unliving Healing:
Positive energy cast by the paladin heals good creatures regardless of their type. This effect extends to the paladin himself.

More to come.

New Feat:

Extra Special Ability:
Prerequisite:
At least one special ability.
Benefit:
Instantly gain the benefits of a special ability.
Special:
This feat may be taken more than once. Each time it is taken, it may apply either to another special ability, or to a stacking special ability.

Note: Now I'll be doing all sorts of alignment based warriors. I'll have at least three, and each one will have a PrC when the warrior loses his ideals. It's not necessarily an opposite alignment warrior, but a broken warrior. Here's a list!:smallbiggrin:
Paladin (LG): My remake of the original class, and what started this thread. It's in the OP, ya dengus!:smallbiggrin:
And the TN Paladin-only PrC, The Pragmatic: when the Paladin falls on the scale of idealism vs. cynicism, it falls hard. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8985807&postcount=68)

Next, the Vis Veris Vesica (NE): one who puts their idealism in themselves, completely focused on self empowerment. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9264941&postcount=160)
The NG Vis Veris Vesica-only PrC, the Altruist: a Vis Veris Vesica who becomes disgusted with their deeds, coming to a level of redemption that they put the lives of others above their own. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9281197&postcount=196)

Then we have the Anarch (CN of course): warrior of chaos embodied, master of both chaos incarnate, freedom, and entropy. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9346010&postcount=203)
Sneak preview- The Pandemonia (CE), Anarch only PrC! Some crazy fun.

Comments:
So, it's a pretty vanilla solution... but I think it's pretty good vanilla. You have some powerful, versatile turning ability (which can be expanded upon), powerful spellcasting, and some evil-killing stuff. It all scales rather linear-ly (with a bit of a quadratic element from the spellcasting) until 15th level, when you get access to the powerhouse spells and better abilities. Then it starts scaling better.
Anyways, all in all, it's meant to be competitive with a clericzilla: not a batman cleric, but one who buffs up then goes out and kills things. Actually, preferably a bit better than the clericzilla.

Anyways... thoughts?

Roc Ness

2010-07-19, 03:25 AM

Morph Bark

2010-07-19, 03:39 AM

Spoilerblock the picture, it's stretching the page.

Kuma Kode

2010-07-19, 04:01 AM

...saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard's Charisma modifier.

...so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level bard spell...

Your copypasta is undercooked. :)

paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell:

Were you going to expand there?

Other than some minor typographical errors as nitpicked above.... quite simply... this makes me want to play a paladin. I might drop the hit die down to d10, but I really like how you did the abilities. It is most certainly stronger than the PHB Paladin, but I agree that's it's probably not tier 1... Solid 2-3, though. If someone played this in my game, I would likely be a bit more anal about the paladin's code than I normally am, considering there's actually stuff to lose with this class.

BladeofOblivion

2010-07-19, 04:08 AM

I loved the paladin enough to play as is, so I endorse this product or service.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 04:09 AM

Holy Moly. Its certainly better than the original paladin, but I don't think it competes with CoDzilla, given the tales I've heard of it...

Maybe upper tier 3? I'm not a good judge, but it'll be similar to, probably slightly higher than, the martial initiators.
Maybe not Druidzilla, or DMM persist clericzilla, but if it's on the level of an initiator, I'm happy.:smallbiggrin:

Also, I like the picture. :smallbiggrin:
I do too!

Your copypasta is undercooked. :)
I have no idea what you're talking about. You obviously edited those "bard" things in. >.>

Were you going to expand there?
Nnnnnope.

Other than some minor typographical errors as nitpicked above.... quite simply... this makes me want to play a paladin. I might drop the hit die down to d10, but I really like how you did the abilities. It is most certainly stronger than the PHB Paladin, but I agree that's it's probably not tier 1... Solid 2-3, though. If someone played this in my game, I would likely be a bit more anal about the paladin's code than I normally am, considering there's actually stuff to lose with this class.
I was aiming for mid-high tier 3. It's not tier 2, trust me.
And great! I wanted people to want to play the paladin, the great champion of good, the last bastion of righteousness and purity in this world. I wanted it to be worth it, specifically.
And I did edit the paladin's code, note. But, yes, you're supposed to be strict with the code with this one: there should be some damned if you do, damned if you don't instances. That's what makes playing a paladin interesting.:smallcool:

Mulletmanalive

2010-07-19, 08:48 AM

Robert Blackletter

2010-07-19, 09:10 AM

Not a great judge of balance but love this variant, i going see if my dm will let me play this. Also Holy Surge is awesome

sdeligar

2010-07-19, 12:03 PM

This is pretty cool. So far I haven't found many homebrew I would be interested in trying but this one is. One thing shouldn't the spell list have prerequisites? Beyond that I don't have enough experience to suggest anything else.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 12:22 PM

I kinda like the retained code but making that paragraph clearer is probably in order. Defining "Innocent" would be worthwhile and certain other things like that.

Does a paladin instantly know if they've struck an innocent by mistake? Can they, in any way, sense guilt or intention? It's possible for [if you read the spell description, i've used this on players before] a commoner under a powerful [Evil] descriptor spell to register as "very evil" under detections, for instance...

Do you suffer from the lost Cha? I know there's spellcasting, but do you suffer penalties to hit evil until you've made right? That would certainly be cool and a -5 penalty on one of your big uscle classes would be worth a race against time before the enemy found you...

Honestly... this one's hard.
There's always DMs who will give you no-win situations and make you fall from that... The code is sortof loose, yes, but if the DM wants you to fall, you'll fall. I should include something about motivation.
And, yeah, you suffer from the lost charisma. Pretty much everything is based off of charisma... the only thing you'll retain is turning, unwavering devotion, and the more fluff based stuff, making this little better than a warrior. You can't cast spells, your turning will be abysmal, and you get no bonus against evil creatures.
I'm not going to make it a penalty, but being little better than a warrior should be pretty devastating.
I should include something about penalties, though...:smallamused:

@sdeligar, Robert Blackletter: Thanks!:smallbiggrin:

Juhn

2010-07-19, 12:32 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 12:33 PM

Well, I find Justicar somewhat terrifying, as that does mean you can start Smiting Good creatures with impunity.

I do assume doing that would cause a Fall, though, so perhaps it is not as bad as it looks.

Yes, that would cause you to fall. It's just so that if the Paladin is facing a lot of neutral creatures- say, slaads, which by all rights he should be able to smite- he's not totally screwed. I don't like one trick ponies.

Ouranos

2010-07-19, 01:02 PM

Saved. Very nice.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 04:07 PM

Well, I'm glad people like it. Any other comments?

Fail

2010-07-19, 04:17 PM

Do you still intend to make it match a CoD, or did you find initiator-level enough?

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 04:21 PM

Do you still intend to make it match a CoD, or did you find initiator-level enough?

Not match CoD, but be competitive with- as in, not outshined by. Specifically clericzilla. And not WTFBBQOP clericzilla, but a buffer, wade into melee type cleric. So semi-clericzilla. Really, though, if this is as balanced as an initiator, I'm happy. I know it'll never be as powerful as a tier 1 class, and that's fine by me.

hamishspence

2010-07-19, 05:08 PM

I like the concept. And the approach to Falling seems like a good one- it limits the Fallen Paladin, but not as badly.

Dropping ideas like paladins being unable to multiclass, is also a good idea.

Mulletmanalive

2010-07-19, 05:22 PM

I'm not going to make it a penalty, but being little better than a warrior should be pretty devastating.
I should include something about penalties, though...:smallamused:

I've only included stuff like that because of 'Smite everything evil" syndrome but i really meant whether the ''add cha to hit evil stuff" would still apply with a negative value, as i doesn't specifically say "min. +1"

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 07:32 PM

I've only included stuff like that because of 'Smite everything evil" syndrome but i really meant whether the ''add cha to hit evil stuff" would still apply with a negative value, as i doesn't specifically say "min. +1"

Actually, it specifically says it can get into negatives. This may sound harsh, but really, if you don't have a charisma score of at least 12, this class is pointless.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-19, 08:05 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 08:24 PM

Not to nitpick, but its JUSTICIAR, not justicar. The word justicar only really came about because fantasy writers and D&D players kept misspelling the word and it stuck. Sorry, but I am a stickler for proper spelling, especially of one of my favorite words. I'm REALLY miffed that they spelled it "justicar" in Mass Effect 2 as well.

Likewise, it's "tyger", not "tiger". The word "tiger" only came about because the english kept misspelling the word and it stuck.
...But, well, justiciar is in the dictionary, while justicar is not. I'll change it.

Strudel110

2010-07-19, 08:26 PM

Ok first of all I have to thank you for nerfing wisdom. Now I gotta say everytime I look at paladin, I'm disappointed I read the PHB entry and thought wow this is lame. I was expecting a tough evil-smiting machine of holy death, what I saw was a low tier fighter with severely limited powers, and a fall mechanic that DMs will use just to screw over your mediocre class, I play planescape and grimdark settings, so 9 times out of ten I'm not fighting just evil, but neutral with bad intentions, or a drunkard, or someone under a dominate creature spell. So I appreciate this fix so that paladins will be more than a one-trick pony.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8958251#post8958251Shameless self endorsement.

DaragosKitsune

2010-07-19, 08:31 PM

Just a quick suggestion about the Extra Special Ability feat. Maybe make it accessible to rogues too, seeing as they have a similar mechanic to what you implemented here.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 08:35 PM

Just a quick suggestion about the Extra Special Ability feat. Maybe make it accessible to rogues too, seeing as they have a similar mechanic to what you implemented here.

I'm not dealing with rogues right now. I'm dealing with the paladin.\

@Strudel: Put the link in your sig: that way you can endorse yourself with some shame.:smallwink:

Strudel110

2010-07-19, 09:44 PM

I'm not dealing with rogues right now. I'm dealing with the paladin.\

@Strudel: Put the link in your sig: that way you can endorse yourself with some shame.:smallwink:

Fixed lol. I'll be using this variant soon.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-19, 10:06 PM

Likewise, it's "tyger", not "tiger". The word "tiger" only came about because the english kept misspelling the word and it stuck.
...But, well, justiciar is in the dictionary, while justicar is not. I'll change it.
To be fair, a lot of those discrepencies are because when Webster made his first dictionary, he deliberately altered the spellings of some words to make the words more "American," since it was during the Revolution. That's why we spell these words like this:

honor
dialog
theater

While the Brits spell them like this:

honour
dialogue
theatre

But "justicar" simply isn't a word. Thank you for fixing it and sorry for whining about it. Trying to qualify for the "Uptight English Teacher" prestige class as Durkon would say. :smallwink:

Fail

2010-07-19, 11:04 PM

Not match CoD, but be competitive with- as in, not outshined by. Specifically clericzilla. And not WTFBBQOP clericzilla, but a buffer, wade into melee type cleric. So semi-clericzilla. Really, though, if this is as balanced as an initiator, I'm happy. I know it'll never be as powerful as a tier 1 class, and that's fine by me.Having people look at cleric, then at this, then have doubts, is doable. Desirable to you, though?

Also: "this clause doesn't extend to nonsentient creatures".

DracoDei

2010-07-19, 11:05 PM

Actually, it specifically says it can get into negatives. This may sound harsh, but really, if you don't have a charisma score of at least 12, this class is pointless.

ARe your remembering about the possibility of Drain, damage, and etc? (Note that I haven't even read the class, just seems like a point that might be useful to remember).

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 11:06 PM

ARe your remembering about the possibility of Drain, damage, and etc? (Note that I haven't even read the class, just seems like a point that might be useful to remember).

Yeah. So, if the paladin gets charisma drain, ouch. Sortof like if the mid-level wizard gets enough intelligence damage to not be able to cast his best spells- ouch.

Mando Knight

2010-07-19, 11:19 PM

Fable Wright

2010-07-19, 11:23 PM

I'm not dealing with rogues right now. I'm dealing with the paladin.\

Could you deal with the blackguard next? :smalltongue:
seriously, though... these guys are killing them now...

Also, could you add a healing ability? Healing spells on the spell list, or at least the power to bestow other's wounds on them (aka, you heal your dying friend. Now you take all the damage you healed.).

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 11:27 PM

Something I don't like: this is a purely offensive class by its features. No healing, no protection, just smashing into peoples' faces. When I think of Paladin, I think "Cecil Harvey" or such: warriors whose divine power is as much a shield to ward their allies as it is a sword with which to destroy their enemies.

First 3 levels: Just Templar, Unwavering devotion, and divine grace, are all defensive. It also gets plenty of healing spells on its spell list: stuff like lay on hands is redundant when you have prolific access to cure spells.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 11:28 PM

Could you deal with the blackguard next? :smalltongue:
seriously, though... these guys are killing them now...
Probably not. I'm thinking of making an anarch, though... or maybe a TN paladin, as that's my favorite alignment.

Also, could you add a healing ability? Healing spells on the spell list, or at least the power to bestow other's wounds on them (aka, you heal your dying friend. Now you take all the damage you healed.).

They have healing spells on the spell list.

Galileo

2010-07-19, 11:29 PM

First: Thank you so much for making Smite Evil a constant ability. Just for that, I love this fix.

Second: This Paladin has a mechanic that allows it to flip off the universe and take the third option? YES! :smallbiggrin:

Fable Wright

2010-07-19, 11:30 PM

... failed my spot check. :smallredface:

Gorgondantess

2010-07-19, 11:35 PM

First: Thank you so much for making Smite Evil a constant ability. Just for that, I love this fix.
Daily smite evil is laaaaaaaaame.

Second: This Paladin has a mechanic that allows it to flip off the universe and take the third option? YES! :smallbiggrin:

That was pretty much the intent: if your DM decides to screw you over, at least you can make something out of it.:smallcool:

Mando Knight

2010-07-20, 12:03 AM

First 3 levels: Just Templar, Unwavering devotion, and divine grace, are all defensive. It also gets plenty of healing spells on its spell list: stuff like lay on hands is redundant when you have prolific access to cure spells.

Those are all self-defensive features. The spell list is also a poor replacement, since unlike Clerics they would actually have to prepare healing spells, and they get far fewer spells per day and known than the Cleric, meaning that they might be sorely tempted to sacrifice a healing spell for another buffing spell. A defensive feature would be like several of the 4e Paladin's powers, which force the enemy to attack the Paladin, either through punishing those that harm his allies, or by redirecting the attack onto himself (often then followed up with a counterattack).

Eldrys

2010-07-20, 12:07 AM

I really like the class and think it is much more balanced than the PHB Paladin. Do you have any plans to introduce the paladin mount? that was probably my favorite feature of the old paladin.

Strudel110

2010-07-20, 12:14 AM

I didn't understand the mount thing for the most part mounts are useless because of the places they can't go (most dungeons, small planar gates, indoors, etc.), assuming of course your mount is a horse. Smaller mounts especially stuff that can fly or spider climb is awesome but usually unbalanced.

Ajadea

2010-07-20, 12:14 AM

Hmmm.....I was reading it, and it seems awesome so far. Much better than the WotC paladin.

I had some ideas for special abilities

Celestial Steed
As the WotC paladin's 5th level ability, maybe gaining the celestial template at some point.

Because I really like the concept of a knight in shining armor on a powerful steed, whether or not it's in any way practical. Being a special ability means not every paladin has to have a mount.

----

Take the Blow (yeah, feel free to rename)
As an immediate action, redirect an attack targeting a single adjacent ally. The attacker attacks as if targeting the target, but deals the damage to you instead.

Improved Take the Blow
Required: Take the Blow
As Take the Blow, except you may redirect all forms of damage from a single attack, and your target may be up to 10 feet away. Negative levels, level drain, ability drain, ability damage, insanity, etc. The paladin may make his own saving throw to resist these effects. You may not choose to redirect only part of the damage, you must take all the damage or none of it.

The paladin uses his own AC or the target's, whichever one is better in any given situation. For example, a paladin protecting a rogue could use his own normal AC and flat-footed AC, while using the rogue's touch AC. This applies only to the redirected attacks, not to any other attacks the paladin may suffer from this round.

In addition, the effect of the damage is lessened. Subtract half the paladin's Charisma score (round down) from the redirected hit point damage. The paladin is not subject to death by massive damage when redirecting damage.

Greater Take the Blow
Required: Improved Take the Blow
As Improved Take the Blow, except you may choose a single target within 20 feet and redirect all attacks (hit point, swallow whole, bull rush, insanity, whatever) that the target takes this round. You may not choose to redirect only some of the attacks, you must take all the damage or none of it. This choice cannot be changed mid-round.

The paladin uses his own AC and save bonuses or the target's, whichever one is better in any given situation. For example, a paladin protecting a rogue could use his own Fortitude and Will save bonuses, normal AC, and flat-footed AC, while using the rogue's Reflex save and touch AC. This applies only to the redirected attacks, not to any other attacks the paladin may suffer from this round.

In addition, the effects of the redirected damage is weakened. Redirected hit point damage is halved (round down), or subtract the Charisma score from the amount of damage dealt, whichever would be best in a case-by-case situation.

All level drain becomes only negative levels, ability drain becomes ability damage, and negative levels and ability damage have no effect. For an ongoing condition, such as insanity (but not death), the paladin may make a new save each round.

----
Well, personally, I've always viewed the paladin as a protector first, and a divine smiter second. The Take the Blow abilities let a paladin shine as a meat shield. Nothing's going to stop a dragon from trying to eat that paladin except the paladin. Nothing is ever going to eat the paladin's companions ever. Period.

ZeroNumerous

2010-07-20, 12:23 AM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-20, 12:28 AM

Those are all self-defensive features. The spell list is also a poor replacement, since unlike Clerics they would actually have to prepare healing spells, and they get far fewer spells per day and known than the Cleric, meaning that they might be sorely tempted to sacrifice a healing spell for another buffing spell. A defensive feature would be like several of the 4e Paladin's powers, which force the enemy to attack the Paladin, either through punishing those that harm his allies, or by redirecting the attack onto himself (often then followed up with a counterattack).
Actually, they don't have to prepare spells: I changed the paladin to a spontaneous caster. If you want healing, you can go right at it.

Anyways, that's a good point: I'll work on a special ability to satisfy those in your boat.

I really like the class and think it is much more balanced than the PHB Paladin. Do you have any plans to introduce the paladin mount? that was probably my favorite feature of the old paladin.
I'm considering making it a special ability, though it might be a tad too powerful. Personally, I never liked the special mount.

I didn't understand the mount thing for the most part mounts are useless because of the places they can't go (most dungeons, small planar gates, indoors, etc.), assuming of course your mount is a horse. Smaller mounts especially stuff that can fly or spider climb is awesome but usually unbalanced.
I concur.

Hmmm.....I was reading it, and it seems awesome so far. Much better than the WotC paladin.
Thanks!:smallbiggrin:

I had some ideas for special abilities
*snip*
Interesting- like I said, I'm still considering making the mount a special ability. I might make something like take the blow... I'll have to look over it.

Well, personally, I've always viewed the paladin as a protector first, and a divine smiter second. The Take the Blow abilities let a paladin shine as a meat shield. Nothing's going to stop a dragon from trying to eat that paladin except the paladin. Nothing is ever going to eat the paladin's companions ever. Period.
@MandoKnight as well: Me, I've always seen the paladin as a templar. He smites evil, and he protects the innocent. Not his party members: the innocent, those who can't protect themselves. Kindof like PETA, but much, much more cool.:smalltongue:

Still, yes, I'll include some special abilities to do that. I think I'll be looking at the Marshal and the Knight for inspiration.

Strudel110

2010-07-20, 12:29 AM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-20, 12:30 AM

The alignment straitjacket aside, I have an issue with the code.

Paladins are empowered by a deity, and as divine spellcasters must be within one step of their deity's alignment.

So here's my problem: A paladin of Heironeous(LG) and a paladin of Pelor(NG) must both be lawful and honorable and act within the law. Both are strait-jacketed into specific actions, and both believe that all Evil creatures can be redeemed.

They absolutely must follow this code. Despite Pelor having an irrational hatred of the undead, or Pelor being a deity who is Neutral on Law-v-Chaos. Despite Heironeous stylizing himself as the arch-enemy of all Evil, or the Heironean Code saying nothing at all about obedience to mortal law.

So, why must my Paladin of Pelor or Paladin of Heironeous act within a code of conduct that is only partially true to either deity?

Because this isn't The Paladin of Pelor Class, this is the Paladin Protector of the Innocent Class. If they want to worship Pelor, fine. They still need to follow the paladin's code- they're essentially going above and beyond the call of their deity. Paladins are divine warriors empowered by their own beliefs in purity and righteousness, not empowered by their deity: this is why their abilities are keyed off of charisma, not wisdom. If you want to play a character who gains power from their god, play a cleric. I'm making the paladin to fit my own idea of what the paladin's paradigm should be, and I respectfully disagree with yours.:smallsmile:

Ajadea

2010-07-20, 01:05 AM

All my paladins are atheist.

A paladin's purpose is to serve the causes of law and good, whether we're talking a crusading templar or a divine shield. Things like worship get in the way.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-20, 01:48 AM

All my paladins are atheist.

A paladin's purpose is to serve the causes of law and good, whether we're talking a crusading templar or a divine shield. Things like worship get in the way.

That's pretty much what I'm going for with all this.

Strudel110

2010-07-20, 08:16 AM

Because this isn't The Paladin of Pelor Class, this is the Paladin Protector of the Innocent Class. If they want to worship Pelor, fine. They still need to follow the paladin's code- they're essentially going above and beyond the call of their deity. Paladins are divine warriors empowered by their own beliefs in purity and righteousness, not empowered by their deity: this is why their abilities are keyed off of charisma, not wisdom. If you want to play a character who gains power from their god, play a cleric. I'm making the paladin to fit my own idea of what the paladin's paradigm should be, and I respectfully disagree with yours.:smallsmile:

Ok well that does make sense when you put it that way.

hamishspence

2010-07-20, 08:40 AM

Given that one of my favourite paladin scenes is in Tymora's Luck- where the paladin disobeys her deity- because she realizes that what he wants to do is evil- I agree with the idea of paladins as very much Code first, Deity second.

taltamir

2010-07-20, 12:47 PM

this is very nice, I approve.
about tiers... tier 1 completely breaks the game in many ways, tier 2 breaks it in only a few ways... they basically get to say "no" to the DM's carefully plotted plot... raise the dead, teleport all over the place, disjunction the one ring, etc etc.
tier 3 are actually potentially more lethal in an unplanned fighter than higher tiers (especially if cheese is disallowed), but don't possess world and plot breaking powers. They are considered the highest tier level that should be played.

this seems to be tier 3 to me, and that is perfect.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

Tier 1: Capable of doing absolutely everything, often better than classes that specialize in that thing. Often capable of solving encounters with a single mechanical ability and little thought from the player. Has world changing powers at high levels. These guys, if played well, can break a campaign and can be very hard to challenge without extreme DM fiat, especially if Tier 3s and below are in the party.

Examples: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite

Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potencially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

Examples: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

Tier 3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time.

Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

As far as killing things with sharp bits of metal, CODzilla is far from perfect, it simply doesn't have the feats... nor does it really need to kill things with sharp sticks because, hey, its a tier 1 character. telling reality to bend over is what it does.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-20, 02:36 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-20, 02:53 PM

Added in a 3- special ability chain for defensive auras, and a special ability for a special mount. I particularly like the special mount one. Check it out.:smallcool:

Kyuu Himura

2010-07-20, 04:30 PM

Awesome work, always loved the paladin, my first D&D character was a paladin and I would have loved to see this fix at that table that day.
That being said, there is this one issue with the paladin code that sooner or later will be brought either by a paladin player getting screwed or by a paladin hating DM wanting to screw paladins with his arbitrary interpretation of stuff.
Legitimate Authority:
According to some people, if the rightfull heir of the throne of a country/city where a paladin serves is, say, Lawful Evil, then the pladin would have to stfu and obey the li'l tyrant, or risk becoming chaotic (wtf is these people interpretation of lawful??). So Richard the Righteous, a paladin of unquestionable virtue would have to serve Prince Plotty McBadguy (thus falling, because at some point, Plotty is gonna make Rich kill a peasant) or disobey and thus stop being a paladin (because disobeying is chaotic and you're supposed to be lawful).
Now, I know that such a thinking line is a bunch of bull#$%&$, but then again, there are DM's that like bull#$%&&$. So I propose the following change: The paladin is expected to follow Legitimate authority, but when such authority is evil, he must see that it is replaced by Righteous Authority (yes, that creates Lawful revolutionaries, but it also eliminates stupid "serve authority and stfu" DMing)

Anyway, my 2 cp, hope it helps

hamishspence

2010-07-20, 04:34 PM

There is the BoED approach- whether than paladin must disobey orders to do evil (and this does not make them any less lawful) but, at the same time, they won't generally overthrow a government just because it's corrupt- they will try and use less violent means. At least until violence becomes the only reasonable option.

You won't fall if Plotty McBadguy orders you to do something evil and you say "no way"- but until then, the paladin might do their best to steer the Evil guy away from evilness, rather than overthrow him the moment he comes to the throne.

Note that this version of the paladin says nothing about "may not associate with people who offend against his moral code"-so he;s not going to be penalized for remaining in Plotty McBadguy's service and trying to redeem him.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-20, 05:48 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-20, 11:25 PM

'Kay, the code is updated and hammered out... anything else it needs? Any more ideas/critique on special abilities?
Also, any requests for a paladin of a different alignment spectrum?

AtS

2010-07-21, 12:18 AM

Here's a question.

Any paladin who ceases to be lawful good or knowingly violates this code of conduct is considered to have a charisma score of 1 until proper atonement is made.

Does this mean that the paladin's Charisma drops to 1, or is effectively 1? Are they incapacitated by even a single point of charisma damage? Or do they keep their charisma score, but for the purposes of the Paladin class abilities, their score is treated as if it were a 1?

Also, does this charisma drop (real or otherwise) affect the Paladin's multiclass abilities that might be based on charisma?

I have to say, I really like this class fix, and I'm probably going to have my DM take a look at it. If he lets me use it, I'll report back on how it fares. :smallwink:

Gorgondantess

2010-07-21, 02:35 AM

Does this mean that the paladin's Charisma drops to 1, or is effectively 1? Are they incapacitated by even a single point of charisma damage? Or do they keep their charisma score, but for the purposes of the Paladin class abilities, their score is treated as if it were a 1?
It drops to 1, like a construct. An ego whip is fatal.

Also, does this charisma drop (real or otherwise) affect the Paladin's multiclass abilities that might be based on charisma?
Yep, so a sorcadin is equally screwed. It reflects the blow to the paladin's confidence: his entire being is built around an ideal, and he's lost it.

I have to say, I really like this class fix, and I'm probably going to have my DM take a look at it. If he lets me use it, I'll report back on how it fares. :smallwink:
Thanks! I'd appreciate that.:smallsmile:

Woodsman

2010-07-21, 07:00 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-21, 07:27 PM

Well, this class is certainly an improvement to the standard paladin. HOWEVER, I do have a major disagreement.

"A paladin must stop his quest to apprehend a petty criminal."

That is just... what? I mean, that doesn't make sense to me. What if his quest is on a time limit and apprehending every criminal he sees prevents him from completing his quest?

And if he doesn't complete his quest, hypothetically, the world ends. Really, is that for the greater good? "Oh, yeah, I caught the criminal, but it didn't matter because the world ended."

See what I'm getting at?

The point was, he needs to uphold righteousness wherever he goes... though, yeah, that was poorly worded. I'll remove that clause until I can find a better wording- I need it, and this may sound silly, but... to lack pragmatism. The paladin code is wholly idealist- practicality doesn't come into the equation.

Woodsman

2010-07-21, 07:30 PM

The point was, he needs to uphold righteousness wherever he goes... though, yeah, that was poorly worded. I'll remove that clause until I can find a better wording- I need it, and this may sound silly, but... to lack pragmatism. The paladin code is wholly idealist- practicality doesn't come into the equation.

How about something like this:

"Given the choice between confronting two evils, the paladin must confront the one which would do the greatest harm if left unchecked. He must always act for the greater good, even if it very occasionally means letting a lesser evil go unchecked for a period of time."

Obviously, this is just a draft, typed in about two minutes, but it's a start.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-21, 08:02 PM

How about something like this:

"Given the choice between confronting two evils, the paladin must confront the one which would do the greatest harm if left unchecked. He must always act for the greater good, even if it very occasionally means letting a lesser evil go unchecked for a period of time."

Obviously, this is just a draft, typed in about two minutes, but it's a start.

No. A better one would be, given the choice between confronting two evils, the paladin should do his best to confront both.
Like I said, I want no pragmatism in the paladin's code.

Vulaas

2010-07-21, 11:18 PM

Perhaps, "A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts." might work?

Gorgondantess

2010-07-21, 11:57 PM

Perhaps, "A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts." might work?

Fantastic. I'll use that.

Anyways, I'm currently working on a Real Paladin PrC called the "Pragmatic". It'll be... sortof a blackguard. Stay tuned!:smallbiggrin:

DaragosKitsune

2010-07-22, 12:41 AM

I'm going to guess the Pragmatic will be less of a "Hail Asmodeus" blackguard and more of a "The Ends Always Justify The Means" character.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-22, 12:45 AM

I'm going to guess the Pragmatic will be less of a "Hail Asmodeus" blackguard and more of a "The Ends Always Justify The Means" character.

...Sortof. It'll be interesting.

BladeofOblivion

2010-07-22, 01:30 AM

Actually, that sounds rather similar to a grey guard.

Roc Ness

2010-07-22, 06:11 AM

No it doesn't! Pragmatic's got a P in it and doesn't end in guard! :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, I look forward to seeing the pragmatic. :smallsmile:

Gorgondantess

2010-07-23, 02:58 AM

The Pragmatic
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/RulesComp_Gallery/110227.jpg

Requirements:
Alignment: True Neutral
Knowledge: Religion 11 ranks
Abilities: Holy Strike

When a paladin falls, he falls hard. This doesn't mean he decides he likes the taste of babies- one who was once such a great servant of good rarely turns to such decadent, senseless evil. When a paladin falls, he may still try to do good, but lacking everything that once made him a paladin- the dedication to an ideal. The Pragmatic is practical and realistic to the core- cold, calculating, and mechanical, every Pragmatic still tries to serve the greater good... but how he tends to varies, once things like "good" and "evil" prove to be two sides to the same coin. The pragmatic has forsaken alignment to do what he needs to do, finding his ideal in gritty, realistic practicality.

Any who hold onto these ideals as he once did are both foolish and dangerous, an anathema to the Pragmatic.

HD: d8
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|Alignment Dead|2

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+0|
+3|DR 2|3|0

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+3|Bonus Feat|3|1|0

4th|
+4|
+1|
+1|
+4|DR 4|3|2|1|0

5th|
+5|
+1|
+1|
+4|Angel Slayer, Demon Slayer|4|3|2|1|0

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+5|DR 6|4|3|3|2|1|0

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+2|
+5|Bonus Feat|5|3|3|3|2|1|0

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+2|
+6|DR 8|5|4|3|3|3|2|1|0

9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Heartless|5|4|4|3|3|3|2|1|0

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Soulless, DR 10|5|5|4|4|3|3|3|2|1
[/table]

Proficiencies: The Pragmatic is proficient in simple & martial weapons.

Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, UMD.

Skill Points/Level: 6+int modifier.

Spellcasting: A Pragmatic casts spells drawn from the Pragmatic spell list. He's mastered the theories of these spells much as a wizard would, though they are technically divine. He embraces all aspects of each individual spell, recognizing it as a tool, not a matter of faith.

To prepare or cast a spell, a Pragmatic must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Pragmatic’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Pragmatic’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Pragmatic can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table above. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

A Pragmatic must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour in quiet focus. A Pragmatic may prepare and cast any spell on the Pragmatic spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Each spell on the Pragmatic spell list is linked to another by a slash: the Pragmatic prepares both of these spells in one spell slot, and chooses which one to use at the time of casting.

Spell List:
Level 1: Inflict Light Wounds/Cure Light Wounds, Bane/Bless, Cause Fear/Remove Fear, Identify/Magic Aura, Curse Water/Bless Water, Enlarge Person/Reduce Person, Protection From Alignment,
Level 2: Inflict Moderate Wounds/Cure Moderate Wounds, Consecrate/Desecrate, Remove Paralysis/Hold Person, Shatter/Make Whole, Darkness/Daylight, Blindness/Deafness//Remove Blindness/Deafness, Invisibility/See Invisibility, Silence/Sound Burst, Rage/Calm Emotions,
Level 3: Magic Circle Against Alignment, Bestow Curse/Remove Curse, Locate Object/Misdirection, Invisibility Sphere/Invisibility Purge, Haste/Slow, Inflict Serious Wounds/Cure Serious Wounds,
Level 4: Wall of Fire/Wall of Ice, Freedom of Movement/Hold Monster, Discern Lies/Glibness, Poison/Neutralize Poison, Dimensional Anchor/Dimension Door, Inflict Critical Wounds/Cure Critical Wounds
Level 5: Passwall/Wall of Stone, Disintegrate/Major Creation, Break Enchantment/Dominate Person, Polymorph/Baleful Polymorph, Hallow/Unhallow, Inflict Light Wounds (Mass)/Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal/Plane Shift
Level 6: Permanency/Greater Dispel Magic, True Seeing/Veil, Stone to Flesh/Flesh to Stone, Undeath to Death/Circle of Death, Heal/Harm, Cure Moderate Wounds (mass)/Inflict Moderate Wounds (mass)
Level 7: Dictum/Word of Chaos, Blasphemy/Holy Word, Regenerate/Destruction, Inflict Serious Wounds (mass)/Cure Serious Wounds (mass), Waves of Exhaustion/Heroism, Greater
Level 8: Dimensional Lock/Greater Teleport, Shield of Law/Cloak of Chaos, Unholy Aura/Holy Aura, Greater Spell Immunity/Spell Turning, ICW (mass)/CCW (mass)
Level 9: Soul Bind/True Resurrection, Time Stop/Foresight, Imprisonment/Freedom, Heal (mass)/Harm (mass)

Alignment Dead: The Pragmatic is considered to not have a charisma score: any skill or ability checks keyed off of charisma are keyed off of intelligence instead, and class abilities keyed off of charisma (such as turn undead or certain spellcasting progressions) simply don't work. The Pragmatic adds his charisma bonus (pre falling, and not counting any enhancement or inherent bonuses) as a permanent untyped bonus to his intelligence score.
Ability damage or drain to charisma simply does nothing.
In addition, the Pragmatic is always considered to have whatever alignment would be most beneficial to him at the time- for example, if hit by a blasphemy spell, he would be considered to have an evil alignment. If struck by a holy weapon, he would be considered to have a good alignment.

Damage Reduction: The Pragmatic gains DR /Unaligned (as in an attack without an alignment descriptor) of an amount described in the table above.

Bonus Feat: The Pragmatic may gain any Vile or Exalted feat he qualifies for as a bonus feat.

Angel Slayer, Demon Slayer: The Pragmatic gains the effects of the Favored Enemy ability, applying to all outsiders of any sort.

Heartless: The Pragmatic's faith in a lack of faith manifests itself in his own physiology: he gains the living construct type, though he naturally heals as normal.

Soulless: The Pragmatic abandons any holiness or righteousness altogether, falling off the radar of divinity: he becomes immune to any divine spell or SLA cast by an outsider that allows spell resistance. Spells cast by a Pragmatic are exempt from this.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-25, 01:24 AM

Pragmatic finished. It's... interesting: I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it, though.
Any polarized pairings of core spells to add to the spell list would be appreciated.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-25, 06:14 PM

Anyone? Anyone at all?

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-26, 12:19 AM

It's...it's interesting, like you said. Not sure what to say about it mechanically though.

AtS

2010-07-26, 03:52 PM

Yeah, I like the Pragmatic, but I'm not sure about the [vile] and [exalted] bonus feats - aren't those mutually exclusive? I'm guessing that the alignment restrictions are waived - but in terms of fluff, how would one justify being able to wield such extremes with impunity? Does the Pragmatic draw the benefits of the feats from his own cold rationality rather than the divine powers they're originally supposed to stem from?

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-26, 04:20 PM

Besides, they're not that good of feats to begin with, aren't they?

Gorgondantess

2010-07-26, 04:30 PM

There's a few gems amongst them. And Vile/Exalted feats don't necessarily require calling upon a deity...
The point is, he plays the field when it comes to alignments. It doesn't matter where he takes it from, so long as it helps him do his work. It's also exemplary of how they're a little bit good, a little bit evil.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-26, 08:55 PM

I can see that as being justifiable then, except when vows are complimentary. I know there's a Dark Vow of Indulgence or something that requires you to do drugs, and that's in direct contradiction to the Vow of Abstinence.

I can see how this might appeal to people, but I myself follow the words of Executor Pallin:

"I've been a C-Sec officer for thirty years. I've never had to break the law to do my job. Not once."

Just because the fast way is there doesn't make it the best way.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-26, 09:10 PM

Just because the fast way is there doesn't make it the best way.

That's just the thing: it's the best way to the Pragmatic.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-26, 09:16 PM

Even if it involves slaughtering a room full of undeserving people? I'm not talking innocence here, just minimizing collateral damage.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-26, 10:55 PM

Even if it involves slaughtering a room full of undeserving people? I'm not talking innocence here, just minimizing collateral damage.

If the Pragmatic deems it necessary, then it is necessary.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-27, 12:15 AM

Gorgondantess

2010-07-27, 12:53 AM

Robert Blackletter

2010-07-27, 02:33 AM

What if it isn't necessary? Say a bad guy's hiding at a party. The Pragmatic could charge the guy slaughtering everything in his way, or he could wait until the target's alone and kill him then, with a lot less mess to clean up. It's not a matter of morality, but practicality. Sure the Pragmatic doesn't care about a person's morality, but one corpse is a whole lot easier to dispose of than 27.

I think the idea is if the pragmatic deem it necessary then he would kill everyone in the room, whether some were innocent or not. Yes you can argue that you don't think it was but the pramatic is free to disagree. In your example the pragmatic know where the man while he could lose him later if he leaves it longer.( Please correct me if I'm wrong Gorgondantess he is your baby)

I know there's a Dark Vow of Indulgence or something that requires you to do drugs, and that's in direct contradiction to the Vow of Abstinence.

By taking one he would fail to qualify for the other so no problem here i would have thought.

Edit: what happens to your palindin ability with this as many are keyed to cha (example: Divine Grace) and others don't suit the fluff (EXAMPLE:Holy Smite) i not a optimisation type but it could lead to 5 dead level of paladin which seems alot when this is not a upgrade MORE A NEW DIRECTION.

Krazddndfreek

2010-07-27, 02:50 AM

Edit: what happens to your palindin ability with this as many are keyed to cha (example: Divine Grace) and others don't suit the fluff (EXAMPLE:Holy Smite) i not a optimisation type but it could lead to 5 dead level of paladin which seems alot when this is not a upgrade MORE A NEW DIRECTION.

Alignment Dead: The Pragmatic is considered to not have a charisma score: any skill or ability checks keyed off of charisma are keyed off of intelligence instead, and class abilities keyed off of charisma (such as turn undead or certain spellcasting progressions) simply don't work. The Pragmatic adds his charisma bonus (pre falling, and not counting any enhancement or inherent bonuses) as a permanent untyped bonus to his intelligence score.
Ability damage or drain to charisma simply does nothing.
In addition, the Pragmatic is always considered to have whatever alignment would be most beneficial to him at the time- for example, if hit by a blasphemy spell, he would be considered to have an evil alignment. If struck by a holy weapon, he would be considered to have a good alignment.

Emphasis mine

Roc Ness

2010-07-27, 02:51 AM

The Pragmatist: 9th level spells, Full BaB, DR 10, d8 HD...

I'm not sure, but you may have made a minor CoDzilla with this PRC. :smallbiggrin:

Krazddndfreek

2010-07-27, 02:56 AM

The DR isn't that amazing, as it only affects attacks that have an alignment, but the 9th level spell and full bab are.

Robert Blackletter

2010-07-27, 02:58 AM

Emphasis mine

dang missed that well that what i get for not sleeping in 36 hours cos I also missed the 9th level spells (assumed it was 6th like the pal) well that makes the dead levels more attractive.

Krazddndfreek

2010-07-27, 03:17 AM

dang missed that well that what i get for not sleeping in 36 hours cos I also missed the 9th level spells (assumed it was 6th like the pal) well that makes the dead levels more attractive.

I think I would have missed that too if you hadn't mentioned it :smalltongue:

Sereg

2010-07-27, 10:05 AM

It is an interesting PrC, but I am also concerned about it getting 9th level spells.

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-27, 11:05 AM

Okay... so then the Pragmatic wouldn't kill all these people. Where are you going with this?:smallconfused:

I'm just trying to get a read on what "pragmatic" means here. Sure the simple answer is that this is a person who does whatever is necessary to get the job done. But what qualifies as "necessary" in this case? I'm finding it hard to figure out how a person like this stays True Neutral. Carving up bystanders to get at one bad guy seems evil, while waiting for the bad guy to be alone so you can kill him and just him seems good. The class doesn't seem like an exemplar of the True Neutral alignment as much as a schizophrenic person who is good sometimes and evil other times.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-27, 02:06 PM

I'm just trying to get a read on what "pragmatic" means here. Sure the simple answer is that this is a person who does whatever is necessary to get the job done. But what qualifies as "necessary" in this case? I'm finding it hard to figure out how a person like this stays True Neutral. Carving up bystanders to get at one bad guy seems evil, while waiting for the bad guy to be alone so you can kill him and just him seems good. The class doesn't seem like an exemplar of the True Neutral alignment as much as a schizophrenic person who is good sometimes and evil other times.

Necessary is whatever the individual Pragmatic deems necessary. I don't get to decide: they do. And it is not good, nor evil, nor lawful, nor chaotic, nor neutral: the Pragmatic is off the alignment chart altogether. Amoral.

The Pragmatist: 9th level spells, Full BaB, DR 10, d8 HD...

I'm not sure, but you may have made a minor CoDzilla with this PRC.
Yes, I have. It's either a tier 2.5 or 1.5 class, depending on how you look at it: I'd call it tier 2, personally.
Though I wouldn't call it overpowered, at all. With this class you're limited to, specifically, Paladin 9/Pragmatic 10/Class X. It also has a limited spell list. Meanwhile, you can pull off something like Bard 1/Duskblade 9/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist 3, which gives +18 BAB, channel spell (though only as a standard action, still powerful), and potential DMM shenanigans, as well as 9th level spells but from a much, much broader list, especially if you include SpC. That's strictly more powerful than this one.
Yes, in a healbot/sword&board fighter/trapmonkey/blaster wizard party, the Pragmatic is going to be considered too powerful. So is my paladin.

The only argument that I can see that's quite valid is that the Pragmatic is more powerful than the Paladin, when the Paladin should be really powerful, yes? I don't have an answer to that: I just gave the Pragmatic what felt right. If I changed it, I feel it would create more problems than it solves, at least in terms of my own aesthetic bliss, so screw that, I'm keeping it.

One other argument, though, might be the capstone ability, but I'd like to deflect that argument by saying that it's gained at level 19, at the earliest: it needs something to compete with batman, doesn't it?

Archpaladin Zousha

2010-07-27, 02:31 PM

Necessary is whatever the individual Pragmatic deems necessary. I don't get to decide: they do. And it is not good, nor evil, nor lawful, nor chaotic, nor neutral: the Pragmatic is off the alignment chart altogether. Amoral.
Okay, NOW I get it. I was thinking the Pragmatic was some kind of ultimate neutral, but I see now it's less being completely balanced in terms of morality and more like free from alignment at all. In a way, you could say that when you become pragmatic, you erase the alignment from your character sheet for good. That clears up everything. Sorry for the confusion. :smallsmile:

Gorgondantess

2010-07-27, 02:39 PM

Okay, NOW I get it. I was thinking the Pragmatic was some kind of ultimate neutral, but I see now it's less being completely balanced in terms of morality and more like free from alignment at all. In a way, you could say that when you become pragmatic, you erase the alignment from your character sheet for good. That clears up everything. Sorry for the confusion. :smallsmile:

Precisely: the first ability pretty much explains that. Alignments are an ideal, and I'd have none of that with the Pragmatic.

Lord_Gareth

2010-07-27, 03:27 PM

Gorgon, I hate to bring it up, but you are aware that the paladin's code is still extremely subject to "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations, right?

Eldan

2010-07-27, 03:31 PM

Uhm, sorry I have nothing real to contribute, but where's that quote in the title from? It's been bugging me for hours, now. I know where it comes from, but can't remember it...

Owrtho

2010-07-27, 03:31 PM

I'm finding it hard to figure out how a person like this stays True Neutral. Carving up bystanders to get at one bad guy seems evil, while waiting for the bad guy to be alone so you can kill him and just him seems good. The class doesn't seem like an exemplar of the True Neutral alignment as much as a schizophrenic person who is good sometimes and evil other times.

I'd also point out that being true neutral doesn't mean you don't do good or evil things, just that you don't particularly favour one solution over the other. Being neutral isn't so much something you work to do, rather its the fact you aren't working to be good or bad (or lawful or chaotic, though arguably being chaotic is even less work as it is just doing whatever you feel like).

That is just my opinion though. It also is true that there are situations that neutrality must be worked for, but that usually tends to be in the eyes of others, not in how you actually are.

Owrtho

LurkerInPlayground

2010-07-27, 03:41 PM

Or:
Alignments are stupid. They cause more problems than they solve.

A paladin code could, you know, actually be an explicit code; rather than some vague rule that says that paladins must act lawful good.

Gorgondantess

2010-07-27, 03:44 PM

Gorgon, I hate to bring it up, but you are aware that the paladin's code is still extremely subject to "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations, right?
Yes. That's the point, if you've been reading along: that still happens. There are supposed to be those situations, but the paladin is powerful to make up for it. I like the code: I don't like the paladin. The paladin is supposed to have the code to restrict a powerful class... read the text in the OP.

Uhm, sorry I have nothing real to contribute, but where's that quote in the title from? It's been bugging me for hours, now. I know where it comes from, but can't remember it...
It's an eminem song. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnWLw2-xRDg)

Gorgondantess

2010-08-02, 01:41 AM

I edited in an... extra quote to the paladin's code, and am currently working on another "holy warrior". Stay tuned!:smallbiggrin:

GameSpawn

2010-08-12, 03:18 PM

I really like the idea of this paladin. I find the Justiciar ability a little distasteful, since it seems to me that the paladin SHOULD be stronger against evil creatures, but from a game-play point of view, I see the point. Maybe if the ability could only be invoked to defend good creatures or there was some other limitation, I would like it better. I also wish the paladin had a greater ability to help others not commit evil (other than by violence): spells like calm emotions, for example.

FlamingKobold

2010-08-12, 03:26 PM

You get things like calm emotions from PrCs. This paladin is just a holy warrior that stomps bad guys.

GameSpawn

2010-08-12, 03:34 PM

You get things like calm emotions from PrCs. This paladin is just a holy warrior that stomps bad guys.

Point taken. I suppose what I'd like to see is a less vicious paladin, but perhaps it would make more sense to just roleplay it that way.

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-12, 11:35 PM

I edited in an... extra quote to the paladin's code, and am currently working on another "holy warrior". Stay tuned!:smallbiggrin:

So...your quote basically says that the Paladin only works in games rife with moral simplicity, requiring the DM to run a certain kind of game. Is that about right?

I do like the mechanical changes, mind, and I'll probably use this variant along with my Personal Code system, but I'm trying to understand your angle here.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-13, 12:00 AM

So...your quote basically says that the Paladin only works in games rife with moral simplicity, requiring the DM to run a certain kind of game. Is that about right?

I do like the mechanical changes, mind, and I'll probably use this variant along with my Personal Code system, but I'm trying to understand your angle here.

Oh, no! No matter the world, there can be paladins. I'm not saying that's how it is. I'm saying that's what the paladin believes. A paladin believes in an ideal, not a reality. There is no practicality in the paladin's code.

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-13, 12:26 AM

So what happens when the Paladin inevitably matures when exposed to the "real world" and decides to take up a code more in line with, y'know, actually helping people?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-13, 12:28 AM

So what happens when the Paladin inevitably matures when exposed to the "real world" and decides to take up a code more in line with, y'know, actually helping people?

This. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8985807&postcount=68)

Bharg

2010-08-14, 08:32 AM

I really like your Paladin! I am just missing a bit of the feeling to be unstoppable of the Smiting mode of the Pathfinder Paladin.

Could someone link me this CoDzilla thing... I can't find it.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-14, 03:36 PM

I really like your Paladin! I am just missing a bit of the feeling to be unstoppable of the Smiting mode of the Pathfinder Paladin.

Could someone link me this CoDzilla thing... I can't find it.

The CoDzilla isn't anything specific: it stands for Cleric or Druid-zilla. It's just the idea of a divine caster who buffs themselves up, then goes to town. The problem with this is that these casters have world-changing abilities, but then they can also just cast a few spells and wade into melee better than a fighter, or barbarian, or paladin can- which thus begs the question, what's the point of a paladin when you can play a CoDzilla?

Bharg

2010-08-14, 07:32 PM

Oh, yeah. I see. >.>
That's kinda dumb...

Why did you choose to turn Smite Evil into a passive ability without a charisma bonus on damage?
Did you already playtest it?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-14, 07:46 PM

Oh, yeah. I see. >.>
That's kinda dumb...
Dumb, but true. Blame WotC.

Why did you choose to turn Smite Evil into a passive ability without a charisma bonus on damage?
Well, I didn't want this to be a "dip" class, as the other paladin is. Thus, I gave it holy smite, for class level-to-damage, and then Holy Strike for charisma to attack. It's essentially smite evil, but drawn out and permanent. It was just more balanced that way.

Did you already playtest it?
Nope. Haven't had much of a chance to.

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-14, 07:52 PM

Oh, yeah. I see. >.>
That's kinda dumb...

Why did you choose to turn Smite Evil into a passive ability without a charisma bonus on damage?
Did you already playtest it?

We're going to. It is going to be very powerful, but not overkill.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-14, 07:53 PM

We're going to. It is going to be very powerful, but not overkill.

Actually, no, it won't. It'll be along the lines of a bard or duskblade. I'm currently working on changing that.

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-15, 03:27 AM

I meant compared to the standard Paladin. On second thought, it might be so in that comparison.

Bharg

2010-08-16, 10:46 AM

Ha, how important is magic for this paladin?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-16, 04:05 PM

Ha, how important is magic for this paladin?

Well, without spells, this paladin is pretty much the standard paladin with infinite smites and some badass turning, so... pretty important.

Bharg

2010-08-17, 10:57 AM

Could you emulate some CoDzilla-ing with this spells?

Why making the mount a special ability and not use a druidish bad ass mount like in Pathfinder as an extra feature?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-17, 02:45 PM

Could you emulate some CoDzilla-ing with this spells?

Why making the mount a special ability and not use a druidish bad ass mount like in Pathfinder as an extra feature?

*ehehehm*.

Screw Pathfinder.

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-17, 02:53 PM

*ehehehm*.

Screw Pathfinder.

QFT. And the lulz.

Bharg

2010-08-18, 06:43 AM

Wow, that helps a lot.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-18, 11:05 PM

Changes!

*Added a Special Ability to 4th level.

*Brought back Holy Strike to 5th level.

*Added the Sacrifice and Holy Sacrifice abilities. Check it out!

DrWeird

2010-08-18, 11:11 PM

I always thought the notion of a divine character besides an Ur-Priest not worshiping Gods was pretty silly, especially in a world so involved in the constant conflicts of them. Still, that's not really important; what's important is you did a very good job making the Paladin not only a prestige class, but competitive. The only question now is what to fill those last levels with after you max out Paladin.

*HACKWHEEZEFAVOREDSOULHORKCOUGH*

I can also attest, after being forced into playing Pathfinder, throwing bigger numbers at things doesn't help.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-18, 11:16 PM

I always thought the notion of a divine character besides an Ur-Priest not worshiping Gods was pretty silly, especially in a world so involved in the constant conflicts of them. Still, that's not really important; what's important is you did a very good job making the Paladin not only a prestige class, but competitive. The only question now is what to fill those last levels with after you max out Paladin.
...Are you looking at the Pragmatic or something? This is a 20 level base class.:smallconfused:

I can also attest, after being forced into playing Pathfinder, throwing bigger numbers at things doesn't help.
Certainly. Initiators have relatively small numbers, generally.:smalltongue:

DrWeird

2010-08-18, 11:21 PM

OHGOD I was looking at prestige classes before and forgot this wasn't Prestige. In any case, my point still stands for the proud Paladin, who my buddy Ramon has crossed with Favored Soul so many times I've stopped counting. In any case, this almost makes me want to play something besides a barbarian. Almost. :smallbiggrin: You did an excellent job of taking him and beefing him up to account for everything he gets for standing on a razor's edge in vow-format. The Pragmatic isn't too shabby either.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-18, 11:24 PM

DrWeird

2010-08-18, 11:33 PM

Yes, I can see it has that rather powerful streak to it; it's never quite a barbarian, though - which is why I've always gone barbarian/cleric if I ever multiclassed in that direction, and not paladin - vows and super-goodness and potential falls have never been my shtick.

How-ever, this might just change my mind.

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-19, 12:02 AM

I might also recommend adopting a subjective vow system; that is, individual paladins, religions, and/or paladin orders may have their own Vows, which might be further modified by oaths to one's party, nation, or even enemy.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-19, 12:07 AM

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-19, 12:08 AM

Oh, good idea. I'll include something along those lines. Thanks!:smallsmile:

It's a lot better than "Moral idealism or bust" in most games anyway :p It does tend to emphasize Law over Good, but since you'll get six different answers to the Good question from only five DMs, I see no issue with this.

Lix Lorn

2010-08-22, 06:18 PM

I really like this-there are maybe three things I DON'T like.
I like alternate alignment paladins. It wouldn't take MUCH adjustment for me or a DM to modify. but hey.
No Order's Wrath/Holy Smite on the spell list?
And I don't like what you did with the Special Mount. I like that they get a Special Mount.

Other than that, aaaawesome work.

You'll get six different answers to the Good question from only five DMs.
Can I quote that? XD

Gorgondantess

2010-08-22, 07:06 PM

I like alternate alignment paladins. It wouldn't take MUCH adjustment for me or a DM to modify. but hey.
Yeah, I'm working on those... but suffice it to say, they're going to be very different.

No Order's Wrath/Holy Smite on the spell list?
Well, they are mediocre spells... but, I suppose it wouldn't hurt.

And I don't like what you did with the Special Mount. I like that they get a Special Mount.
Oh? Why? In the end, it's essentially a special mount but better. You just have to blow a spell slot on it.

Other than that, aaaawesome work.
Thanks!:smallbiggrin:

Can I quote that? XD[/QUOTE]

Lix Lorn

2010-08-22, 07:39 PM

In order:
Okay, forgiven, you RULE.
Hooray!
I guess. It doesn't feel the same. :smallfrown:

^_^

Gorgondantess

2010-08-22, 08:07 PM

In order:
Okay, forgiven, you RULE.
Right now I'm working on a CN variant, specifically. That should be good for you, yes?:smalltongue:

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-22, 11:15 PM

Can I quote that? XD

Go ahead ^_^

Lix Lorn

2010-08-23, 10:54 AM

Right now I'm working on a CN variant, specifically. That should be good for you, yes?:smalltongue:
Marry me?
Hooray for polygamy! :smalltongue:

Bulwer

2010-08-23, 04:45 PM

I'm hopefully playing one of these, and really really looking forward to it.

Here's my sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=234521) if you wanna look at one that's built.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-23, 06:41 PM

Marry me?
Hooray for polygamy! :smalltongue:

I would totally make a joke pointing at specific groups here, but I'm afraid it's against the forum rules. But if I could say it, it would be the best joke, like, ever.:smalltongue:

I'm hopefully playing one of these, and really really looking forward to it.

Here's my sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=234521) if you wanna look at one that's built.

Cool beans!:smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo

2010-08-23, 06:49 PM

Yeah, I'm working on those... but suffice it to say, they're going to be very different.

Would you mind not calling them paladins at all? Something that always bugged me, the original concept of paladin is a champion of righteouness, honor and justice (the concept not whatever they actualy were). Heck, they aren't even suposed to be specific god servants like many people seem to support. Nongood "Paladins" always left a bad taste in my mouth. It's like saying nonmagical wizard. Or pacifist fighter.

So if not too much please call them Blackguard or Rebeller or something other than paladin. That word has been raped enough already in my opinion.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-23, 06:58 PM

Would you mind not calling them paladins at all? Something that always bugged me, the original concept of paladin is a champion of righteouness, honor and justice (the concept not whatever they actualy were). Heck, they aren't even suposed to be specific god servants like many people seem to support. Nongood "Paladins" always left a bad taste in my mouth. It's like saying nonmagical wizard. Or pacifist fighter.

So if not too much please call them Blackguard or Rebeller or something other than paladin. That word has been raped enough already in my opinion.

Mind? I don't intend to call it a paladin at all! Bleah. Really. Anyways, I'm going to make a CN alignment-champion tentatively called an anarchist (though suggestions for better names would be much appreciated. I'm looking at you, Lix Lorn), which will be a more glass cannon version, with some nifty little chaotic abilities (such as shatter at-will:smalltongue:), and a NE one called the Vis Veris Vesica, which will be just fun, with both invocations and spontaneous spellcasting off of the whole sorc/wiz list, just very low level spells and very few spells/day (like, few as in 3.) Essentially the opposite of batman: instead of being able to overcome any challenge so long as he has time to prepare, this one will just always be prepared.:smallcool:

DrWeird

2010-08-23, 07:09 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-08-23, 07:15 PM

I've never liked the idea of chaotic version of Paladins. Never really sat with me, and kind of defeats the purpose - then again, that's just my silly opinion; but what do I know? I'm just a dire bear with a medical degree.

It's not a chaotic version of a paladin. It's a class all to its own that happens to have the strict alignment requirement of CN, full BAB, and divine spellcasting.

I like alternate alignment paladins. It wouldn't take MUCH adjustment for me or a DM to modify. but hey.

Yeah, I'm working on those... but suffice it to say, they're going to be very different.

It's not a paladin. I want to make this very, very clear. I'm just posting it in the same thread because it's convenient.

Lix Lorn

2010-08-23, 07:18 PM

The Freeblade?
Unfortunately, I can't think of anything better than Anarchist. XD

...message me the joke? Or use my email? I wanna know now. XD

Gorgondantess

2010-08-23, 07:30 PM

The Freeblade?
Unfortunately, I can't think of anything better than Anarchist. XD
Meh, alright.

...message me the joke? Or use my email? I wanna know now. XD

Actually, it wasn't all that funny. I was being ironical, in that I realized that really the joke wasn't funny at all. Of course, you'll still want to know what the joke is, but I probably won't tell you, so that will be even more funny. For me.:smallamused::smalltongue:

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-23, 07:51 PM

How about the Iconoclast? It is a synonym of Rebel and has the right sound to it for a class name.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-23, 07:55 PM

How about the Iconoclast? It is a synonym of Rebel and has the right sound to it for a class name.

Meh... sounds a little clunky. I think I'm going to just shorten it to "Anarch".

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-23, 08:03 PM

You might be right. The only other class name I can think of that has Four or more syllables is the Barbarian, and that one is too ingrained to remove. Three syllables could be a good limit. I'll keep looking for something Interesting though.

EDIT: How about:
The Malcontent
The Dissenter
The Separatist
The Renegade

(Another long one, but less clunky)
The Revolutionary

Lix Lorn

2010-08-24, 11:31 AM

I think it should be the Browncoat. (Shot)

I know of a homebrew class called the Anarch. Is complex.

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-24, 05:12 PM

I think it should be the Browncoat. (Shot)

I know of a homebrew class called the Anarch. Is complex.

I can't believe that you just managed to shove a Firefly reference into a PALADIN thread...

Lix Lorn

2010-08-24, 07:47 PM

I can fit a Firefly reference into ANY thread. I use the word shiny often.

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-24, 07:54 PM

...That you do. That. You. Do.

Lix Lorn

2010-08-24, 08:30 PM

Well, 'tis a shiny word. :smalltongue:
[/offtopic]Like this is a shiny thread!

DeafnotDumb

2010-08-26, 04:37 PM

How about Freethinker?

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-26, 05:06 PM

That sounds like a criminal charge right out of 1984.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-26, 05:10 PM

That sounds like a criminal charge right out of 1984.

That it does!:smallbiggrin:

DeafnotDumb

2010-08-28, 01:04 PM

That sounds like a criminal charge right out of 1984.

But is that a bad thing?

Sir_Mopalot

2010-08-30, 12:44 AM

I have to admit, I like this so much that I have declared it the official paladin class for my games. The core paladin no longer exists, as far as I'm concerned.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-30, 12:45 AM

I have to admit, I like this so much that I have declared it the official paladin class for my games. The core paladin no longer exists, as far as I'm concerned.

You'll find my own sentiment similar.:smalltongue:

BladeofOblivion

2010-08-30, 12:52 AM

But is that a bad thing?

No it's not. I just thought I'd point that out.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-30, 12:54 AM

It's not a bad thing. It's a hilarious thing.:smallbiggrin:

Lord Raziere

2010-08-30, 01:11 AM

Okay, NOW I get it. I was thinking the Pragmatic was some kind of ultimate neutral, but I see now it's less being completely balanced in terms of morality and more like free from alignment at all. In a way, you could say that when you become pragmatic, you erase the alignment from your character sheet for good. That clears up everything. Sorry for the confusion. :smallsmile:

I actually like this interpretation of pragmatism and of the alignment system in general, I think it fits really well.

DrWeird

2010-08-30, 09:01 AM

Most people, I think, don't realize that it's okay to give martial classes serious buff-ups; a friend of mine looked at it and said there was too much stuff, and I'm sure some people agree with him - but really, Paladins and Fighters and Barbarians and *yadda yadda yadda, GET ON WITH IT!* do really needs these boosts to remain even useful for something besides taking damage for the Wizard past level ten in a long-running game.

Lix Lorn

2010-08-31, 06:12 PM

My subscription alert sent me soooomething. :smallamused: It looks... iiiinteresting.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 06:25 PM

Vis Veris Vesica
http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/119/7/a/The_Sorcerer_by_MajesticChicken.jpg
It means "force blade" in latin. Ain't I cool?
The Vis Veris Vesica desires power above all else- he worships it, far greater than any god, an ideal. Not necessarily power over people, and certainly not physical prowess, and not even magical power (though the latter comes very close) but simply doing things well under varying circumstances. All three of the former are simply steps on the road to this power.
The Vis Veris Vesica is similar to a cleric worshiping an ideal, but rather deriving power from fealty, he derives his power from himself- after all, if one derives their power from an external source, they're not really all that powerful now are they?

Adventuring: Vis Veris Vesicas adventure to acquire power: not necessarily wealth, but knowledge, and experience.

Characteristics/Role: The Vis Veris Vesica has a whole toolbox of abilities at their disposal, suitable for whatever the problem. Need a spell? He has it. Need someone to swing around a greatsword? He can do that too. Sneaking around? Same. Sure, he'll never be as good at sneaking as a rogue, or bashing faces in as a barbarian, and certainly not as good at slinging spells as a wizard, but he doesn't want to be, simply because he doesn't need to be. Specialization is for insects.

Alignment: Vis Veris Vesica are always Neutral Evil. They don't really care about evil, or worship it... because that would take away from themselves. Evil doesn't care about evil, and so the Vis Veris Vesica is evil incarnate. He will do anything to get what he wants, to further his own goals.

Religion: Vis Veris Vesica worship the throne of Me.

Background: Generally, Vis Veris Vesica are loners. They rarely need anyone to back them up. Sometimes they have a freudian excuse for the path they follow- a traumatic instance of powerlessness- and some are simply less srupulous NTs. (http://theorem.ca/~mvcorks/intj.html#NT)

Races: Humans, being the catchall race, are of course predisposed towards becoming Vis Veris Vesica. Of the other humanoids, Half-elves follow the path of power more than any else- they are already natural loners and outcasts. The shorter races- gnomes, halflings and dwarves- are generally too simple, too blunt or too nice to become Vis Veris Vesica, and Half-Orcs simply don't possess the acumen. Evil elves who leave the woods are rather common as Vis Veris Vesica, however, as are drow who leave their caverns.
Of more exotic races, hobgoblins desiring a life greater than that of a raider are very common as Vis Veris Vesica, as are the grander, more ambitious kobolds. Fiends and aberrations of all sorts- especially yugoloth- are generally inclined towards this path, if they decide to pursue a career at all.

Other Classes: Vis Veris Vesica get along beautifully with sorcerers and wizards, as they all have the same hunger for power. They respect the sorcerer's raw energy, and the wizard's dedication and versatility- any who want to follow the path of power who lack the sense of self but possess the intellect will become wizards. Meanwhile, they get along well with nongood bards and factotum, all of whom have similar abilities, though from different sources and motivations. Druids, Rangers, and any clerics who do not follow powerhungry gods tend to despair of the Vis Veris Vesica's total absence of holiness, and they tend to be above the heads of sorts like fighters and barbarians.
Paladins kill them on sight.

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|Invocations

1st|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+1|Aura of Evil, Invocations (Least)|1

2nd|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+1|Skill- Not Luck, Arcane Channeling (1/day, 0th)|2

3rd|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+2|Arcane Channeling (1/day, 1st)|2

4th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+2|Special Ability, Arcane Channeling (2/day, 1st)|3

5th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+3|No Luck 1/day, Arcane Channeling (2/day, 2nd)|3

6th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Invocations (Least or Lesser)|4

7th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Special Ability, Arcane Channeling (3/day, 2nd)|4

8th|
+8/+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Arcane Channeling (3/day, 3rd)|5

9th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Divine Channeling, Arcane Channeling (4/day, 3rd)|5

10th|
+10/+5|
+5|
+5|
+5|No Luck 2/day, Special Ability, Arcane Channeling (4/day, 4th)|6

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Invocations (least, lesser, or greater)|7

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|Arcane Channeling (5/day, 4th)|7

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Special Ability, Arcane Channeling (5/day, 5th)|8

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Psionic Channeling|8

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|No Luck 3/day, Arcane Channeling (5/day, 6th)|9

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7|Special Ability, Invocations (least, lesser, greater, or dark)|10

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+7|
+7|
+7|Arcane Channeling (6/day, 7th)|10

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|Only Skill, Arcane Channeling (7/day, 7th)|11

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+8|
+8|
+8|Special Ability, Arcane Channeling (7/day, 8th)|11

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9|Ultimate Channeling, Arcane Channeling (8/day, 9th)|12[/table]
Class Skills: All but iajutsu focus.

Skill Points Per Level: 4+int modifier.

Proficiencies: A Vis Veris Vesica is proficient in Light, Medium & Heavy armor, Light & Heavy shields, simple & martial weapons and one exotic weapon of its choice.

Invocations (Sp): A Vis Veris Vesica generally does not prepare or cast spells as other wielders of arcane or divine magic do. Instead, he possesses a repertoire of attacks, defenses, and abilities known as invocations: minor magical abilities, usable at will by sheer force of will.

A Vis Veris Vesica's invocations are spell-like abilities; using an invocation therefore a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity. An invocation can be disrupted, just as a spell can be ruined during casting. She is entitled to a Concentration check to successfully use an invocation if he is hit by an attack while invoking, just as a spellcaster would be. A Vis Veris Vesica can choose to use an invocation defensively by making a successful Concentration check, to avoid provoking attacks of opportunity. A Vis Veris Vesica's invocations are subject to spell resistance unless an invocation's description specifically states otherwise. A Vis Veris Vesica's caster level with his invocation is equal to his Vis Veris Vesica level.

The save DC for an invocation (if it allows a save) is 10 + equivalent spell level + the Vis Veris Vesica's Charisma modifier. Since spell-like abilities are not actually spells, the Vis Veris Vesica cannot benefit from the Spell Focus feat. He can, however, benefit from the Ability Focus feat, as well as from feats that emulate metamagic effects for spell-like abilities, such as Quicken Spell-Like Abilities and Empower Spell-Like Ability.

The four grades of invocations, in order of their relative power, are least, lesser, greater, and dark. The Vis Veris Vesica begins with knowledge of one invocation, which must be of the lowest grade (least). As a Vis Veris Vesica gains levels, he learns new invocations, as summarized on the class progression table and described below. The Vis Veris Vesica may choose from any warlock invocation but blast shape invocations. Eldritch Essence invocations apply to melee attacks as opposed to eldritch blast attacks.

Vis Veris Vesica can qualify for some prestige classes usually intended for spellcasters, provided that the prestige class in question requires a caster level requirement, as opposed to a specific level of spells capable of being cast by the character.

Aura of Evil: The Vis Veris Vesica's aura of evil (see the detect evil spell) is equal to her Vis Veris Vesica level. The aura of evil and depravity is so palpable she gains a bonus to intimidate checks equal to 1/2 class levels.

Skill- Not Luck: The Vis Veris Vesica believes that, so long as one is powerful, one should prevail, no matter the luck involved. This belief is so powerful that it alters reality with respect to the Vis Veris Vesica: the Vis Veris Vesica, when rolling attack rolls and saving throws, does not automatically fail on a natural one, but does not automatically succeed on a natural 20. Likewise, enemies attacking the Vis Veris Vesica or making a saving throw against one of her spells do not automatically succeed or fail on a natural one or twenty, respectively.

Arcane Channeling: The Vis Veris Vesica can also apply his power in different ways by willing the world around her, but applying his power this way is taxing: a number of times per day as shown in the table above, the Vis Veris Vesica may cast any spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list of a level no greater than the level indicated in the table, as an SLA. When casting spells with xp components, the Vis Veris Vesica still pays half the normal xp cost. Additionally, the Vis Veris Vesica can only cast his highest spell level once per day. Save DCs are 10 + equivalent spell level + the Vis Veris Vesica's Charisma modifier.

Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the Vis Veris Vesica gains a special ability chosen from the pool below.

No Luck: At 5th level, once per day the Vis Veris Vesica may choose to take 10 on an attack roll, saving throw or any other d20 check. He may use this ability an additional time per day for every 5 levels he has.

Divine Channeling: At 9th level, the Vis Veris Vesica can also choose from the Cleric spell list with his Arcane Channeling ability.

Psionic Channeling: At 14th level, the Vis Veris Vesica can also choose any psionic power for his Arcane Channeling ability. It may be augmented with a number of power points equal to the Vis Veris Vesica's class level.

Ultimate Channeling: At 20th level, the Vis Veris Vesica may choose from any spell list when using her Arcane Channeling ability.

Only Skill: At 18th level, the Vis Veris Vesica may use No Luck an unlimited number of times per day.

Special Abilities:
Less Luck, More Skill: The Vis Veris Vesica may choose to use 3d6 instead of a d20 whenever he would normally roll a d20. Threat ranges are increased by 3 steps using this method (so 20/x2 becomes 17-20/x2, 19-20/x2 becomes 16-20/x2, etc.)

Channeled Metamagic: The Vis Veris Vesica may choose any metamagic feat with an adjustment of +0 to +1. When using his Arcane Channeling ability, he may choose to apply this metamagic feat to the spells he casts; however, the spell is adjusted by the metamagic as normal, so a 9th level Vis Veris Vesica casting an empowered magic missile would use up his only 3rd level spell for the day. He could not cast an empowered scorching ray, however, as he cannot cast spells above 3rd level.
This special ability may be taken multiple times; the second time it is taken, the Vis Veris Vesica may choose any metamagic feat with an adjustment from +0 to +2, the third time he may choose any with an adjustment from +0 to +3, and the fourth and all subsequent he may choose any with an adjustment from +0 to +4.
Metamagic feats apply to both arcane, divine and psionic spells all as normal.

Subjugate the Weak: Good creatures take -2 penalty to saves against the Vis Veris Vesica's spells, and he gains his charisma bonus as a bonus to attacks against good creatures.

Extra Invocation: The Vis Veris Vesica gains an additional invocation, added to his spell list.

Embrace the Darkness: The Vis Veris Vesica adds all the spells from the evil, death or destruction domain of a level no greater than 1/2 her class levels as SLAs to her invocations known. As she gains levels, she adds the spells she qualifies for. This special ability may be taken more than once; each time it is taken, he may add another domain to this list.

I am Invincible!: Whenever she rolls below 10 on a save, the Vis Veris Vesica adds her charisma bonus to the saving throw modifier.

Lix Lorn

2010-08-31, 06:32 PM

Yep, that's pretty epic. XD
Do SLAs require XP components?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 06:34 PM

Yep, that's pretty epic. XD
Do SLAs require XP components?

Yes. Yes it is. Though I forgot to tag on my epic pic-sure.:smallbiggrin:
And yes, yes they do. I'll edit that in.

A note to all concerned: I've reformatted the first page a bit with pertinent links, as well as a teaser for my next class.:smallcool:

Lix Lorn

2010-08-31, 06:39 PM

Ooh, a Chaos Sorcerer! XD
Is that fantasy or 40k... hmm...

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 07:16 PM

Ooh, a Chaos Sorcerer! XD
Is that fantasy or 40k... hmm...

40k. You can tell by the little backpacky thingie.:smalltongue:
Anyways... Comments, folks? Critique? I love/hate you's?:smallbiggrin:

DrWeird

2010-08-31, 07:36 PM

Why are all the saves bad? Wouldn't this warrant average saves?

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 07:37 PM

Why are all the saves bad? Wouldn't this warrant average saves?

No... I like the idea of the character being powerful- really powerful- but 'cursed'. All bad saves.

DrWeird

2010-08-31, 09:01 PM

It's your funeral, dropped-by-a-dominate-person/failure to dodge a fireball/fail to resist a disease :smallbiggrin:

No, but it looks pretty good; it reminded me of a PrC *I* had planned to make - is there a spellcaster that uses psionic, divine & arcane together yet?

Krazddndfreek

2010-08-31, 09:08 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 09:10 PM

It kinda detracts from his "power" if he can be killed by a Phantasmal Killer at level 15.:smalltongue:

Maths:

Assuming a 7th level wizard with 18 int and a +4 boost from magic. (DC isn't even pumped up)
DC: 10 + 4 (spell level) 6 (ability) + 2 (feats) = 22

Assuming Vis has 14 Wis (not a major ability, still pretty generous)
Will Save: 5 (base) + 2 (ability) + 5 (Item)

Chance of death = 50%

So imagine what would happen if he got SoD'd by a CR 15 creature. Maybe give them bonus feats in the special abilities so they can get Iron Will and such? That might help a little.

Well, first of all, the same problem is inherent in the fighter, or the rogue, or any other low will save class. Second of all, half the special abilities will revolve around shoring up the crappy saves.:smalltongue:

It's your funeral, dropped-by-a-dominate-person/failure to dodge a fireball/fail to resist a disease :smallbiggrin:

No, but it looks pretty good; it reminded me of a PrC *I* had planned to make - is there a spellcaster that uses psionic, divine & arcane together yet?
There's a few homebrew PrCs and even base classes knocking around out there, yes.
And the idea isn't that he excels in all 3 arenas, it's that he's always prepared. Always. He's the opposite of a wizard like that: if the wizard prepares the right spells at the beginning of a day, she's unbeatable. Well, if the Vis Veris Vesica just casts the right spells at the right time, he's also unbeatable.

I'm considering giving average saves. Considering. Just what are the numbers for those, anyways?

Krazddndfreek

2010-08-31, 09:13 PM

Yeah, I guess it works out, especially since they have nearly every power and spell available to them. Actually, I'm starting to think that might be a bit OP. Like tier 2 area.

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-31, 09:15 PM

I have to say that I'm...underwhelmed, actually. Solid class, of course, just kinda boring. Scratch that, really boring. I don't mind the saves (though I think they deserve a good Fort), but as of right now, it gets a giant shrug.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 09:17 PM

Yeah, I guess it works out, especially since they have nearly every power and spell available to them. Actually, I'm starting to think that might be a bit OP. Like tier 2 area.
Tier 2 works.

I have to say that I'm...underwhelmed, actually. Solid class, of course, just kinda boring. Scratch that, really boring. I don't mind the saves (though I think they deserve a good Fort), but as of right now, it gets a giant shrug.
Special abilities should help shore that up. It's not fun in concept, but I played something similar to it once, and it was a blast. Really, really, really fun, so I knew I had to make it my own.
Oh, but I'm working on the Anarch, and I can promise you you'll like that.:smallamused:

Krazddndfreek

2010-08-31, 09:17 PM

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-31, 09:22 PM

Honestly, right now it reads, "Hi, I'm a caster with full B.A.B. and an arbitrary alignment restriction. Play me please. I'm lonely."

I do hope the special abilities spice it up some.

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 09:56 PM

Honestly, right now it reads, "Hi, I'm a caster with full B.A.B. and an arbitrary alignment restriction. Play me please. I'm lonely."

I do hope the special abilities spice it up some.

Are you kidding? First of all, the casting mechanism is entirely unique: have you ever seen a caster like that? No? Yeah, pretty much.
And then there's the invocations, and channeling eldritch essences through melee attacks.
I will add more, don't doubt it. What you're seeing right now is the steak dinner: one large, juicy hunk of prime meat, slapped on a plate. It ain't pretty, but it'll taste good. Now just wait 'till I throw the garnish on, will you?:smalltongue:
(God I love cheesy metaphors.)

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-31, 11:14 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 11:22 PM

That's not the problem, and from a mechanical standpoint, I can appreciate how they "spellcast". The problem is that the melee aspect is utterly extraneous. Unless their Invocs are designed to enhance that part of themselves, their actions will always be better served by Invoking or spellcasting rather than, y'know, fighting.

Well, first of all, eldritch essence invocations apply to melee attacks. Second, many invocations have 24 hour durations. Third, if they spend all their time spellcasting they're going to be screwed when the next combat comes around, due to the severely limited uses per day.
And half the reason I haven't posted special abilities was that I'm still considering what'll make it a more effective melee fighter in that realm.
In the end, though, it's not primarily a fighter; it's primarily a pseudo-caster that can also be good at fighting.

Lord_Gareth

2010-08-31, 11:24 PM

Eldritch essence only applies if they're using Hideous Blow (in and of itself an eldritch essence) or they have a class feature that states such. So you know (trying to help here).

Gorgondantess

2010-08-31, 11:33 PM

Eldritch Essence invocations apply to melee attacks as opposed to eldritch blast attacks.

I know, I know, nobody reads the stuff under 'invocations', but melee becomes a viable option when you can potentially lay down 8 negative levels in one round.

DrWeird

2010-09-01, 01:06 AM

Average is the long-forgotten +10 save.

I'm just kidding, guy; there's no such thing. You could make it, though.

Lix Lorn

2010-09-01, 01:31 PM

+9, actually. XP
I've seen it used in homebrew. It ALWAYS gets shot down...

Also, Gorgondantess, the 'ess' on the end of your name always makes me think you're a girl. :smallmad: And you're not... right?

Kobold-Bard

2010-09-01, 05:19 PM

Might you consider making Lay on Hands (or even better the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality) as a Special Ability for the Paladin? The better spell progression helps but the 1-4 Paladin spell list sucks for healing (CMW is 3rd level instead of 2nd for example).

Gorgondantess

2010-09-01, 08:49 PM

+9, actually. XP
I've seen it used in homebrew. It ALWAYS gets shot down...
Well, not here! Here we push bottons! Here we change the guidelines, break the rules! HERE WE USE AVERAGE SAVES AND ODD SKILL POINTS PER LEVEL! WHO'S WITH ME?[/revolutionary]
Anyways, eh, screw it. It fits for the class, I'm doing it, come hell or high water.
...So it's +9. What's the exact formula on that?

Also, Gorgondantess, the 'ess' on the end of your name always makes me think you're a girl. :smallmad: And you're not... right?
That depends.

Might you consider making Lay on Hands (or even better the Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality) as a Special Ability for the Paladin? The better spell progression helps but the 1-4 Paladin spell list sucks for healing (CMW is 3rd level instead of 2nd for example).
Hmmm. Good point. I don't like lay-on-hands as is, so I'll look into making something similar.

Lix Lorn

2010-09-01, 08:52 PM

Well, not here! Here we push bottons! Here we change the guidelines, break the rules! HERE WE USE AVERAGE SAVES AND ODD SKILL POINTS PER LEVEL! WHO'S WITH ME?[/revolutionary]
Anyways, eh, screw it. It fits for the class, I'm doing it, come hell or high water.
...So it's +9. What's the exact formula on that?
You're talking to the girl who made Better than Best BAB.
...also, can I (Extended) sig that?

That depends.
The more I talk to you, the more I like you.

Gorgondantess

2010-09-01, 08:54 PM

You're talking to the girl who made Better than Best BAB.
Yeah, I personally didn't like that, as you already know: it has potential for abuse. But something like 4/5 BAB is cool.:smalltongue:

...also, can I (Extended) sig that?
Of course!:smallbiggrin:

The more I talk to you, the more I like you.

D'awwww.:smallredface:

Siosilvar

2010-09-01, 09:01 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-09-01, 09:14 PM

+1 + 0.4 per level.

Huh. Well, that evens out to +8, but alright.

DrWeird

2010-09-01, 09:15 PM

So it WASN'T a dream! I knew I had seen average saves somewhere, but I couldn't recall, and since it wasn't in the SRD or anything, I just assumed it was my own slow, creeping Insanity.

****ing low will saves.

Gorgondantess

2010-09-01, 11:55 PM

Oh. See what I did there? I added actual flavorful class abilities. And special abilities!:smallcool:
Working on the Altruist now; I should have it up within a few days. And then, the Anarch!:smallbiggrin:

Kobold-Bard

2010-09-02, 03:36 AM

...
Hmmm. Good point. I don't like lay-on-hands as is, so I'll look into making something similar.

Cheers very much.

Lix Lorn

2010-09-02, 07:00 AM

Yeah, I personally didn't like that, as you already know: it has potential for abuse. But something like 4/5 BAB is cool.:smalltongue:
What exactly is abusable about it, if I may ask? Is it just that it qualifies for prestige classes and feats early? I'd reckon the feat qualification was okay, to be honest...

I love Skill-Not Luck. That's so flavorful.

At 14th level, the Vis Veris Vesica can also choose any psionic power for his Arcane Channeling ability. It may be augmented with a number of power points
Should there be more words on the end of that? XD

I am Invincible is amusing, mostly for the fact that a low save can get a higher result than a high one. XP
Can you use Channeled Metamagic for Metapsionics? Or Meta-other things?

Gorgondantess

2010-09-02, 10:36 AM

What exactly is abusable about it, if I may ask? Is it just that it qualifies for prestige classes and feats early? I'd reckon the feat qualification was okay, to be honest...
Prestige classes, mainly. It's not broken at all- in fact, melee needs some nice things, I'm all for that- but it will throw people off for a much better reason than something like 4/5 BAB.

I love Skill-Not Luck. That's so flavorful.
Thanks. It was meant more as flavor than as power, really.

Should there be more words on the end of that? XD
Yes. Yes there should. I'm disappointed that noone's noticed that until now. >.>

I am Invincible is amusing, mostly for the fact that a low save can get a higher result than a high one. XP
The idea is that the VVV is so obsessed with winning that, when luck turns against them, they'll add that extra measure of will, and it only drives them on that much harder.

Can you use Channeled Metamagic for Metapsionics? Or Meta-other things?
Yeppers! I'll add in that clause.

Lix Lorn

2010-09-02, 10:38 AM

Prestige classes, mainly. It's not broken at all- in fact, melee needs some nice things, I'm all for that- but it will throw people off for a much better reason than something like 4/5 BAB.
I'll just put in a 'Doesn't qualify for PrCs' clause. :smallsmile:

Thanks. It was meant more as flavor than as power, really.
Worked well.

Yes. Yes there should. I'm disappointed that noone's noticed that until now. >.>
Fail. XD

The idea is that the VVV is so obsessed with winning that, when luck turns against them, they'll add that extra measure of will, and it only drives them on that much harder.
Oh, it's wonderful.

Yeppers! I'll add in that clause.
Hooray for psionics!

Siosilvar

2010-09-02, 06:58 PM

Huh. Well, that evens out to +8, but alright.

.4*20=8 +1 = 9. How is this +8 again?

Gorgondantess

2010-09-02, 07:01 PM

.4*20=8 +1 = 9. How is this +8 again?

Yeah, I originally thought it was one, plus .4 for each additional level. Then I realized what I did and changed it back.:smallredface:

Gorgondantess

2010-09-03, 12:39 AM

The Altruist
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-zOrAL1V5Jg/SRbkTMp5jFI/AAAAAAAAAt0/ChBjRdm8ib0/s400/angel47.jpg

Requirements:
Alignment: Neutral Good
BAB +7
Special: Arcane Channeling 2nd level.

In the life of a Vis Veris Vesica, one will invariably do many, many terrible things in the name of personal advancement. Most of the time, it's nothing too horrible, but some cross a moral event horizon. Of those who do, some realize the horrors they've done: after years of living for the sole purpose of ME, they're attacked by a massive cumulative guilt.
These people, having put themselves first for so long, to the exclusion of all others, find their lives that they worked so hard to advance worthless in the face of what they've done: any is more valuable than them, so they violently force all the power in their own veins to aid others, often at their own expense.

HD: d12
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Channeling

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2|Pure Invoker|+1 level of existing Channeling class

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Divine Channeling|+1 level of existing Channeling class

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3|Life Power (HP)|+1 level of existing Channeling class

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Shielding (AC)|+1 level of existing Channeling class

5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4|Life Power (Ability Damage/Drain)|+1 level of existing Channeling class

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5|Shielding (Saves)|+1 level of existing Channeling class

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|Life Power (Conditions)|+1 level of existing Channeling class

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6|Absorption|+1 level of existing Channeling class

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Life Power (Death)|+1 level of existing Channeling class

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Sacrificial Power, Extra Domain|+1 level of existing Channeling class [/table]
Skill Points/Level: 2+int modifier.
Class skills: Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Any), Sense Motive, Survival.

Channeling: At each level, the Altruist gains Arcane Channeling uses per day and maximum spell level as if he gained another level in Vis Veris Vesica.

Pure Invoker: The Altruist loses all invocations he previously had; in return, he gains all spells from the good, healing & protection domains of a level equal to his altruist class levels as invocations. If he has the Subjugate the Weak, Embrace the Darkness or Extra Invocation special abilities, he may trade them out for bonus feats.

Divine Channeling: As the Vis Veris Vesica ability.

Life Power: the Vis Veris Vesica may give up himself to heal others, taking on their burdens as his own.
At 3rd level, as a free action, he may heal another of any amount of hp as a standard action. In doing so, he loses an amount of hp equal to the amount of hp he healed, minus his charisma modifier.
At 5th level, he may heal any amount of ability damage or drain as a free action. He takes 1/2 the amount of damage he healed as damage or drain (whichever he healed) to his charisma.
At 7th level, he may heal any condition another is under- fatigued, sickened, etc., as a free action. In doing so, the altruist takes on the condition he healed, under the same parameters (duration, means of removal, etc.)
At 9th level, as a standard action, he may bring another back to life with no level loss or diamonds involved. He dies in doing so, and in death is in the same state as the one he healed- for example, if their body was destroyed, his is destroyed as well.
All of these abilities have a range of touch, and no more than one may be initiated per round.
Even if the Altruist is immune to the effects- say, a construct altruist taking on ability score damage- he'll still take the effects. If he is lacking a constitution score or strength score and is healing one of those ability damage/drains, he'll just take the damage/drain to his charisma instead.

Shielding: At 4th level, the Altruist may sacrifice his own protection for the protection of others. At 3rd level, activated & dismissed as a full round action, the Altruist drops his AC to 0; in return, all alies within a 60' radius gain a bonus to AC equal to 2x his altruist class levels plus his charisma modifier. At 6th level, this can also apply to save modifiers, or both.

Absorption: At 8th level, as an immediate action, the Altruist may force a spell or effect targeted at an ally to target himself instead.

Sacrificial Power: At 10th level, the Altruist may cast Miracle at will. It costs twice the normal XP. However, the Altruist may take charisma burn to reduce the xp cost by 1000 for each point of charisma burned.
This ability can never be used to directly benefit the Altruist.

Extra Domain: At 10th level, the Altruist adds another domain to his Pure Invoker ability. He may choose from Animal, Knowledge, Luck, Plant, Sun, or Travel.

BladeofOblivion

2010-09-03, 02:29 AM

The Altruist
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-zOrAL1V5Jg/SRbkTMp5jFI/AAAAAAAAAt0/ChBjRdm8ib0/s400/angel47.jpg

Requirements:
Alignment: Neutral Good
BAB +7
Special: Arcane Channeling 2nd level.

In the life of a Vis Veris Vesica, one will invariably do many, many terrible things in the name of personal advancement. Most of the time, it's nothing too horrible, but some cross a moral event horizon. Of those who do, some realize the horrors they've done: after years of living for the sole purpose of ME, they're attacked by a massive cumulative guilt.
These people, having put themselves first for so long, to the exclusion of all others, find their lives that they worked so hard to advance worthless in the face of what they've done: any is more valuable than them, so they violently force all the power in their own veins to aid others, often at their own expense.

I like the flavor. Nice. The requirements can be a little hard to meet, though. It takes time to reach Good after Evil, and playing at seventh level as a fighter without bonus feats is pretty hard. On second thought, there does not seem to be a way to "Fall" (Maybe I should say "Rise") from the Vis Veris Vesica. Ah well.

The Chassis is also very, very, good. It has full BAB and all Good saves.

Channeling: At each level, the Altruist gains Arcane Channeling uses per day and maximum spell level as if he gained another level in Vis Veris Vesica.

Okay, this seems good. Don't let such a cool power go to waste!

Pure Invoker: The Altruist loses all invocations he previously had; in return, he gains all spells from the good, healing & protection domains of a level equal to his altruist class levels as invocations. If he has the Subjugate the Weak, Embrace the Darkness or Extra Invocation special abilities, he may trade them out for bonus feats.

Okay...
At the minimum level to enter, you give up four Invocations for three, with the downside that they are preset. Next level, you have six, while the regular progression is still at four. You continue to gain three each level until level 10, in which you get 9. A total of 36 invocations available at tenth level in this class. Yikes. I know warlocks who would kill for that. On top of that, The Protection Domain is actually really good if you can spam it enough. The three that are REALLY scary are Antimagic Field, Spell Resistance, and Prismatic Sphere.

Life Power: the Vis Veris Vesica may give up himself to heal others, taking on their burdens as his own.
At 3rd level, as a standard action, he may heal another of any amount of hp as a standard action. In doing so, he loses an amount of hp equal to the amount of hp he healed, minus his charisma modifier.
At 5th level, he may heal any amount of ability damage or drain as a standard action. He takes 1/2 the amount of damage he healed as damage or drain (whichever he healed) to his charisma.
At 7th level, he may heal any condition another is under- fatigued, sickened, etc., as a standard action. In doing so, the altruist takes on the condition he healed, under the same parameters (duration, means of removal, etc.)
At 9th level, as a standard action, he may bring another back to life with no level loss or diamonds involved. He dies in doing so, and in death is in the same state as the one he healed- for example, if their body was destroyed, his is destroyed as well.
Even if the Altruist is immune to the effects- say, a construct altruist taking on ability score damage- he'll still take the effects. If he is lacking a constitution score or strength score and is healing one of those ability damage/drains, he'll just take the damage/drain to his charisma instead.

I see this as more flavorful than useful, as half of these abilities can be duplicated by his invocations. Obviously, these also hurt you immensely. I can see wanting to revive an important party member for the final battle at the cost of your own life, but how many players do that?

Shielding: At 4th level, the Altruist may sacrifice his own protection for the protection of others. At 3rd level, activated & dismissed as a full round action, the Altruist drops his AC to 0; in return, all allies within a 60' radius gain a bonus to AC equal to 2x his altruist class levels plus his charisma modifier. At 6th level, this can also apply to save modifiers, or both.

Actually, this one is pretty cool. I like it. This allows you to TANK IN THE BACK ROW. BECAUSE YOU CAN.

Absorption: At 8th level, as an immediate action, the Altruist may force a spell or effect targeted at an ally to target himself instead.

With the free at-will Spell Resistance, I see abuse here.

Sacrificial Power: At 10th level, the Altruist may cast Miracle at will. It costs twice the normal XP. However, the Altruist may take charisma burn to reduce the xp cost by 1000 for each point of charisma burned.
This ability can never be used to directly benefit the Altruist.

Nice. Not overpowered, but useful.

Comments in bold.

EDIT: I just noticed that it is perfectly legal for a Duskblade of sufficient level to take this class. Might want to work on those requirements a little.

Gorgondantess

2010-09-03, 10:40 AM

Ahhh... good point about the protection domain.
See, the thing is though, healing domain & good domain are mostly useless... but, 'tis true, protection can get a bit too powerful.
Then again, by the time it gets that powerful, Wizards will be playing rocket tag n'such. It's powerful, yes, but not OP- just a neato trick up his sleeve. All of these PrCs are pretty damn powerful, and that's how I want it.
Life Power is meant to be mostly flavor, yes. With a good chassis you can afford to do that, especially with at-will protection domain. Also, with healing domain you're going to be doing, what, 20 hp per standard action at 2nd level? If that. An Altruist can just go BAM, standard action, healed as much as he wants. He'll lose a lot of health in the process... but it works.
Duskblades can't enter this class- it specifies Arcane Channeling of 2nd level, which duskblades do not have. They have Channel Spell.

BladeofOblivion

2010-09-03, 05:08 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-09-03, 05:16 PM

Okay. Point taken.

The spell Resistance is pretty strong, and he can still take out a Wizard with clever use of Antimagic Field, but you are right.

[quote]While you are correct in that the healing Domain is mostly useless, I would say that using the spell Heal at-will by 7th level completely eclipses the Life Power ability of the same level and the ability at level 3.
Hmmm... probably. As stated, these things are mainly flavor. I'm sure they'd crop up eventually. And remember, this is any condition.
But... I think I'll make all the 'life power(s)' but death free actions.:smallcool:

Gorgondantess

2010-09-11, 06:09 PM

Okay, so I'm hard at work on the Anarch. It's proving... trickisome. Especially the special abilities. I think I have it mostly hammered out, though, so here's a preliminary stat block:

HD: d8

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1st | +1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Act First- Think Later, Armor of Chaos, Aura of Chaos | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +0| +2 | +3 | Warrior of Entropy | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Rebellious Mind | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Interrupt 1/day, Special Ability | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Freedom 1/day | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +1 | +5 | +5 | True Entropy | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Interruption 2/day | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Chaos Power The Of! | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Freedom 2/day, Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Blood of Chaos | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +3 | +8 | +8 | Interrupt 3/day | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Special Ability | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +4 | +9 | +9 | Freedom of Body | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +9 | Freedom 3/day | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Interrupt 4/day, Special Ability | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Freedom of Mind | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +5 | +11 | +11 | Master of Entropy | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Freedom of Time, Special Ability | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +12 | Freedom of Reality, Interrupt 5/day, Freedom 4/day | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2[/table]
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope

Skill Points Per Level: 6+int mod

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, plus one exotic weapon of the Anarch's choice, as well as light armor.

Lix Lorn

2010-09-11, 08:47 PM

...
Chaos Power the Of.
Have I mentioned I love you? XD

Gorgondantess

2010-09-12, 11:32 PM

The Anarch!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Ffl_br_spike.gif

First things first, an Anarch is always Chaotic Neutral. Any Anarch who ceases to be CN cannot gain any more levels from this class, but retains their class abilities. Any Anarch who ceases to be chaotic cannot use "Chaos the Power of!", and any Anarch who becomes lawful loses all class abilities.

In their pursuit of chaos, other than the random insanity that the purest form namesake embodies, the Anarch focuses on both the lighter and darker sides of chaos: freedom and entropy. As a pure chaotic neutral, it uses both in moderation, never focusing on just one. From these three forces- pure chaos, freedom and entropy- they draw their powers, much as a cleric draws powers from an ideal.

HD: d8

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6
1st | +1 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Act First- Think Later, Armor of Chaos, Aura of Chaos | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd | +2 | +0| +2 | +3 | Warrior of Entropy | 3 | 1 | - | - | - | - | -
3rd | +3 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Rebellious Mind | 3 | 2 | 0 | - | - | - | -
4th | +4 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Interrupt 1/day, Special Ability | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
5th | +5 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Freedom 1/day | 4 | 2 | 1 | - | - | - | -
6th | +6/+1 | +1 | +5 | +5 | True Entropy | 4 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | - | -
7th | +7/+2 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
8th | +8/+3 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Interruption 2/day | 5 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | - | -
9th | +9/+4 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Chaos Power The Of! | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | - | -
10th | +10/+5 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Freedom 2/day, Special Ability | 5 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Blood of Chaos | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | - | -
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +3 | +8 | +8 | Interrupt 3/day | 6 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Special Ability | 6 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +4 | +9 | +9 | Freedom of Body | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +9 | Freedom 3/day | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Interrupt 4/day, Special Ability | 7 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Freedom of Mind | 7 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +5 | +11 | +11 | Master of Entropy | 7 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Freedom of Time, Special Ability | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +12 | Freedom of Reality, Interrupt 5/day, Freedom 4/day | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2[/table]
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any), Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope

Skill Points Per Level: 6+int mod

Proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons, plus one exotic weapon of the Anarch's choice, as well as light armor.

Spellcasting:

An Anarch casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Anarch spell list (see below). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, an Anarch must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Anarch's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Anarch's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, an Anarch can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When the table indicates that the Anarch gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The Anarch's selection of spells is extremely limited. An Anarch begins play knowing two 1st level spells of your choice. He also knows a number of 0th level spells (orisons) equal to his Charisma modifier. At every new Anarch level, he gains two new spells drawn from the Anarch spell list. These spells must be spells he is capable of casting, so that a third level Anarch could not learn a 6th level Anarch spell, but could learn a 2nd level Anarch spell. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells an Anarch knows is not affected by his Charisma score: he learns two spells per level regardless.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third Anarch level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), an Anarch can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the Anarch "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level Anarch spell the Anarch can cast. An Anarch may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, an Anarch need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Spell List:

Orisons: As a Sorcerer/Wizard, plus inflict light wounds, sans arcane mark.

1st: Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Entropic Shield, Erase, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Hideous Laughter, Hold Portal, Jump, Obscuring Mist, Pass Without Trace, Produce Flame, Protection From Law, Ray of Enfeeblement, Reduce Person, Shatter, Silent Image, Summon Monster I, Undetectable Alignment, Unseen Servant, Ventriloquism.

2nd: Alter Self, Blur, Cat's Grace, Darkness, Eagle's Splendor, Glitterdust, Heat Metal, Invisibility, Knock, Minor Image, Mirror Image, Pyrotechnics, Rage, Soften Earth & Stone, Sound Burst, Summon Swarm, Warp Wood.

3rd: Blink, Chaos Hammer, Confusion, Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Explosive Runes, Fly, Gaseous Form, Glibness, Haste, Magic Circle Against Law, Major Image, Ray of Exhaustion, Stinking Cloud.

4th: Black Tentacles, Break Enchantment, Defenestrating Sphere, Dimension Door, Dispel Law, Hallucinatory Terrain, Invisibility (Greater), Polymorph, Rusting Grasp, Shadow Conjuration, Shout, Wall of Fire.

5th: Baleful Polymorph, Dispel Magic (Greater), False Vision, Mirage Arcana, Mislead, Plane Shift, Seeming, Shadow Evocation, Song of Discord, Telekinesis, Teleport, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud.

6th: Animate Objects, Antimagic Field, Cloak of Chaos, Flesh to Stone, Harm, Heroes' Feast, Irresistible Dance, Shout (Greater), Stone to Flesh, Sympathetic Vibration, Veil, Word of Chaos.

Act First, Think Later (ex): An Anarch gains a +1 anarchic bonus to initiative at first level. This increases to +2 at level 3, and by another 1 every 3 levels thereafter up to +7 at level 18. It further increases to +8 at level 20.

Armor of Chaos (ex): So long as the Anarch has no armor check penalty, whether from armor or a shield, she gains an insight bonus to AC equal to her charisma modifier. This increases at level 3 by one point, and by an additional 1 every three levels thereafter, up to charisma modifier+6 at level 18.

Aura of Chaos (su): The power of an Anarch’s aura of chaos (see the detect chaos spell) is equal to her Anarch level. Any lawful creature using detect chaos on the Anarch must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 Anarch level+Cha mod) or the spell immediately ends and they are confused for 1 round.
In addition, the Anarch exudes a very subtle strange, confusing and distracting but at the same time roguish and almost charming air. He gains a bonus to bluff, hide and move silently checks equal to 1/2 his Anarch levels.

Warrior of Entropy (su): The Anarch adds Inflict Light Wounds, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Inflict Serious Wounds and Inflict Critical Wounds at levels 1, 2, 3 & 4, respectively, to his Anarch spells known as soon as he is able to cast the requisite level of spells. If these spells would normally heal a creature- such as when cast on an undead creature or a creature with the tomb tainted soul feat- they instead do nothing. Entropy never heals.
Additionally, the Anarch can channel these spells through melee attacks. Each attack costs an appropriate spell slot whether or not the Anarch hits. Once iterative attacks are possible the Anarch can channel them through a full attack, though each separate attack in the full attack consumes a spell slot.

Rebellious Mind (ex): The Anarch gains a bonus to saves against Mind-Affecting spells & effects equal to his charisma modifier plus 1/2 his Anarch levels.

Interrupt (su): A number of times per day as stated in the table above, the Anarch may cast a spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or less as an immediate action.

Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the Anarch gains a special ability chosen from the pool below.

Freedom (su): As an immediate action a number of times per day as stated in the table above, the Anarch selects one spell, effect or condition imposed upon him by another creature with a duration of 1 or more rounds, of which he is a target. That effect ends immediately.

True Entropy: The Anarch's Inflict spells now deal untyped damage instead of negative energy damage.

Chaos The Power Of! (ex):(The Power Of Chaos, if you really needed to know)
At 9th level, once per day as a move action the Anarch may call upon the powers of chaos in a last ditch effort. This ability is only used in the most dire of circumstances, as it can even result in death. This ability lasts 1d20 rounds, or until someone the Anarch knows and is friendly towards spends a full round action (which provokes attacks of opportunity) stopping him. The ability has a number of effects. When "rolling again" on any of the tables, if the result is another "roll again", disregard that result.
When the duration is over, the Anarch drops to Charisma Modifier-1d20 hp. This can never increase the Anarch's hp.
First, the Anarch is restored 1/2 charisma modifier (rounded down)xclass levels hp.

Second, any within 30' of the Anarch must make a DC (10+1/2 Anarch level+Cha modifier) reflex save or roll 1d6 and suffer one of the below effects:
{table=head]Die Result|Effect:
1|Knocked Prone
2|Healed Anarch's Cha Mod damage
3|Takes Anarch's Cha Mod damage
4|Shaken for duration of encounter
5|Confused for Anarch's Cha mod rounds
6|Roll twice, and use both results.[/table]

Third, the Anarch rolls 1d20-2d4 for each of his ability scores and adds the result as an anarchic bonus to the ability score. This can result in a negative number.

Fourth, the Anarch gains a number of immunities. He rolls 1d10, and consults the table:
{table=head]Die Result|Immunity to:
1|Acid
2|Cold
3|Electricity
4|Fire
5|Sonic
6|Force
7|Spells & Effects that allow SR
8|Nonlethal Damage
9|Roll again- +50% damage from the selected source
10|Roll again twice.[/table]

Fifth, the Anarch gains some resistance to physical attacks. Roll 1d12 and consult the table below:
{table=head]Die Result|DR/:
1|Lawful
2|Good
3|Chaotic
4|Evil
5|Piercing
6|Bludgeoning
7|Slashing
8|Cold Iron
9|Silver
10|Adamantium
11|Roll again twice: result is DR/X or Y.
12|Roll again twice: result is DR/X and Y.[/table]
The DR is equal to 1d20+the Anarch's charisma modifier.

Finally, every round the Anarch rolls 1d100, and must take the following course of action:

{table=head]Die Result|Action:
1 to 20|Attack nearest person in melee.
21 to 35|Stand still and cast as many spells as possible.
36 to 45|Flee as if Panicked.
46 to 50|Drop prone and flop around. Any within reach take damage as if by an unarmed strike.
51 to 60|Scream incoherently with the power of chaos. All within earshot must make will saves (DC 10+1/2 Anarch level+Cha mod) or be permanently deafened. Any who fail their will saves are also subjected to a Word of Chaos, as if cast by the Anarch.
61 to 70|The Anarch casts any level 0 spell of his choice as an SLA.
71 to (99-Cha mod)|The Anarch is stunned for the duration of the round.
(99-Cha mod) to 100|Act Normally[/table]
The charisma modifier used in the equation is the Anarch's charisma modifier as modified by the ability. The result of 99-cha mod can never drop below 71.

Blood of Chaos (su): Whenever the Anarch is damaged in melee, he may choose to create an effect as if activating a rod of wonder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#wonder). He may do this no more than once per round. Unless otherwise noted, the "target" is always the one who damaged him in melee. DCs are equal to (10+1/2 Anarch Level+Cha mod).

Freedom of Body (ex): The Anarch permanently gains the effects of a freedom of movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomofmovement.htm) spell.

Freedom of Mind (ex): The Anarch permanently gains the effects of a mind blank (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mindblank.htm) spell.

Master of Entropy (su): Once every 10 minutes as a full-round action, the Anarch may effect a 10' radius area with intense entropy. Nothing can escape.
All nonmagical manufactured items fall apart, broken up into component parts. Walls & buildings crumble.
All spells & spell-like effects with a listed duration active in the area are affected as if by a Mage's Disjunction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesDisjunction.htm), except for magical items.
Constructs must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 Anarch level+Cha mod) or be instantly destroyed, and fall to rubble. Even if they succeed on their save, they cannot take actions for 1 round.
Living creatures must make a fortitude save (DC 10+1/2 Anarch levels+Cha mod) take 1d6 untyped damage per 2 levels of the Anarch.
With magical items, the magic is unknit & filled with chaos, thus rendering it useless but the energies are still there: any with the appropriate crafting feat can restore the item with 10 minutes of concentrated effort. Not even artifacts can escape from this effect- however, they don't require an effort from an outside source- they simply are restored after 10 minutes time.

Freedom of Time: Once per encounter, the Anarch can as an immediate action gain the effects of a time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm) spell for a duration of 1 round.

Freedom of Reality: At 20th level, the Anarch can reject the reality as is and substitute his own. He may use Reality Revision (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/realityRevision.htm) as a PLA no more than once per day, though it retains its XP cost. He may not use this to duplicate a spell or power, create or add to items, give inherent bonuses to ability scores or any other permanent intrinsic bonus. He may reduce the xp cost by taking 1d4 wisdom burn for each 1,000 xp he reduces it by.

Special Abilities:
Depose the Dominant Paradigm!: The Anarch gains a bonus to attacks against lawful creatures equal to his charisma modifier, as well as +1 to saving throws against spells & SLAs cast by creatures with the lawful subtype & immunity to any spells with the [lawful] descriptor that allow SR.

Monkeywrench:The Anarch gains an additional use of Interrupt every day. This ability may be gained multiple times.

Familiar of Entropy: The Anarch adds her charisma bonus to damage caused by the Inflict line of spells.

Improved Blood of Chaos: (Requires Blood of Chaos): When rolling the dice for the Blood of Chaos ability, the Anarch may roll twice and choose one result.

More to come.

Lix Lorn

2010-09-13, 03:25 AM

(insane giggles)
(Earmarks next twenty levels as 'taken')

...Is that a buffy-pire?

Gorgondantess

2010-09-13, 10:38 AM

(insane giggles)
(Earmarks next twenty levels as 'taken')
Well, I'm glad you like it.:smalltongue:

...Is that a buffy-pire?

Yes, it's that other Joss Whedon show. As is the picture I have for the Altruist. I've been going on a Buffy binge, and I found the pictures fitting.
Also: name the vampires and get a cookie.:smalltongue:

Lix Lorn

2010-09-13, 10:49 AM

No idea who it is. Isn't Angel, isn't Spike...

Gorgondantess

2010-09-13, 10:51 AM

No idea who it is. Isn't Angel, isn't Spike...

:smalltongue:

Gorgondantess

2010-09-13, 05:06 PM

Okiedokes. Anyone have any critiques on all this? On any of the classes? I'd like some feedback...:smallfrown:

Sir_Mopalot

2010-09-13, 05:52 PM

Well, first off, that is indeed spike.
Secondly, I like it, but some of the stuff, like especially Chaos the power of! is a little too fiddly. Like, I'd need a lot of cheat sheets to run a character like that, so that's a mark against it. Interrupt (and the special ability that gives you more uses) seems really powerful. Also: We don't have enough special abilities to run a 20th level Anarch

As far as the others, the paladin is my favorite piece of homebrew ever. I'm playing one soon, and I'll post my impressions once I have some.

imp_fireball

2010-09-13, 06:47 PM

This is not meant to say that the paladin should always be able to save everyone. Sometimes, circumstances will make that impossible. But he should always try to save everybody, and he should never be required to take an evil action to advance the cause of Good. In a world where paladins are possible, 'necessary Evil' is a lie tempters tell to corrupt the righteous, and the corrupt tell themselves to hide from their own guilt.

I think it should go to mention that a lot of paladins that face these situations are expected to die in suicidal combat when they take the third option. If they don't, they fall. They're like samurai in that sense.

Turn Demon: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the evil subtype as he would normally turn undead.

Can your paladin turn undead? If not, it should be 'as a cleric turns undead'.

Detect Evil (su): The paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell, as well as detect good.

What's the specifics? Is it the same as WotC? At-will? Aura?

Holy Smite (su): The paladin is infused with divine energies: any evil creature damaged by the paladin takes additional damage equal to the paladin's class level.

I always thought that smite evil should've just been expanded to 1d6*levels in paladin. This is alright too. But maybe, with a concentration check or whatever, they could apply charisma modifier and 1d6*levels in paladin damage, standard action?

You could probably say that bonus damage from a smite is always lawful and good aligned. Maybe at higher levels, it becomes magical so a paladin can automatically ignore miss chance from incorporeal creatures and possibly even damage ethereals.

Gorgondantess

2010-09-13, 07:13 PM

Secondly, I like it, but some of the stuff, like especially Chaos the power of! is a little too fiddly. Like, I'd need a lot of cheat sheets to run a character like that, so that's a mark against it. Interrupt (and the special ability that gives you more uses) seems really powerful. Also: We don't have enough special abilities to run a 20th level Anarch.
Well, for the first ability, it's meant to only be used very rarely. It's dangerous, and comes with some repercussions... Which I forgot to put in! Will do so.
Interrupt is powerful. The class is powerful. Cool beans! As long as it doesn't get to the point where it's broken, I'm happy.:smalltongue:
As for the special abilities, I also forgot to put in "more to come".

As far as the others, the paladin is my favorite piece of homebrew ever. I'm playing one soon, and I'll post my impressions once I have some.

Thank you.:smallsmile:

I think it should go to mention that a lot of paladins that face these situations are expected to die in suicidal combat when they take the third option. If they don't, they fall. They're like samurai in that sense.
Yep. That's why I wanted to make it more powerful. That's also why I added the Holy Surge & Sacrifice abilities, as a nice middle finger to any DMs who decided to pull that one.

Can your paladin turn undead? If not, it should be 'as a cleric turns undead'.
Yes, it can. 2nd level.

What's the specifics? Is it the same as WotC? At-will? Aura?
Well, it's a detect evil spell, and he gets a permanent one. I really don't see any room for other interpretation.

I always thought that smite evil should've just been expanded to 1d6*levels in paladin. This is alright too. But maybe, with a concentration check or whatever, they could apply charisma modifier and 1d6*levels in paladin damage, standard action?
A simple, non-TWFing, hasted paladin could then deal 100d6 damage in a full attack. No. Though I might add that as a standard action special ability, ala hideous blow.

Sir_Mopalot

2010-09-13, 07:28 PM

A simple, non-TWFing, hasted paladin could then deal 100d6 damage in a full attack. No. Though I might add that as a standard action special ability, ala hideous blow.

:smalleek:

Um... I'm one for doing that. After my DM approves the class first, of course :smalltongue:

Kobold-Bard

2010-09-14, 02:09 AM

Now the Anarch is finished, I thought I'd give a little poke to the healing special ability you said you'd add to the Paladin a while back.

Otherwise the Anarch seems to kicks ass, though CtPo is unbelelievably complex (something I often see people critisized for in homebrew), and the last two abilities need an ex, su, sp tag.

Gorgondantess

2010-09-14, 10:41 AM

Now the Anarch is finished, I thought I'd give a little poke to the healing special ability you said you'd add to the Paladin a while back.
Done. Sortof. I figured the Paladin needs its standard actions.:smallamused:

Otherwise the Anarch seems to kicks ass, though CtPo is unbelelievably complex (something I often see people critisized for in homebrew), and the last two abilities need an ex, su, sp tag.
It's not going to be used a lot, and when it's used, each roll of the die is going to be cause for bated breath. I happen to like its complexity.

Anyways!
Does anyone have any ideas for Anarch or even Vis Veris Vesica special abilities? Anything they'd like to see a powermonger or insane anarchist get?

Lix Lorn

2010-09-14, 03:48 PM

Anyways!
Does anyone have any ideas for Anarch or even Vis Veris Vesica special abilities? Anything they'd like to see a powermonger or insane anarchist get?
Seduction!
Oh, wait, it already fits me. (Giggles)

Arq Kujos

2010-10-05, 09:21 PM

This class......this class makes me want to play an LG character! Oh my god this paladin looks awesome. I love the bardic spell casting progression. I also love the features of Swift Crusader. I was playing a Duskblade and generally not enjoying it, but this class looks so much better!

I do have to ask though, why give them 3 exotic weapon proficiencies? That did seem a bit unbalanced to me. I think maybe giving them a choice of one seems a bit more fair.

Though, that is only an opinion and not in any way meant to be a criticism. Overall, it looks amazing!

Gorgondantess

2010-10-05, 09:32 PM

I do have to ask though, why give them 3 exotic weapon proficiencies? That did seem a bit unbalanced to me. I think maybe giving them a choice of one seems a bit more fair.

It's 3 of the worst exotic weapons in the game, all 3 of them are virtually identical, and you're STILL better off using a 2 handed weapon. Well, probably: this class does have less of a focus on pure melee. Anyways, it just makes sword & board a viable option. Trust me, giving it those 3 proficiencies in no way added to its power- just made for more build options.

Arq Kujos

2010-10-05, 09:38 PM

Ehh, good point. I had not considered that. It is still so hard for me to keep in perspective the power of a tier 3 class. These concepts are so foreign to me. For the longest time, it was either "Full Caster" or "Fail".

Arq Kujos

2010-10-05, 09:44 PM

Also, have you been able to playtest this yet? I'm going to in a couple weeks and I'd love so pro tips from someone who has played this class.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-05, 09:59 PM

Also, have you been able to playtest this yet? I'm going to in a couple weeks and I'd love so pro tips from someone who has played this class.

Actually, I have not... but my hubris is such that I believe I can judge its balance at a glance.:smallwink:

Roc Ness

2010-10-05, 10:22 PM

Also, have you been able to playtest this yet? I'm going to in a couple weeks and I'd love so pro tips from someone who has played this class.

Hey Arq! If you try to convince our DM to let Lethren take levels in this class, I will back you the whole way through. :smallcool:
Just Sayin'

Anyhow, I don't have any pro tips for this, but I have done some sorta simulation battles with it at different levels, so I could give you some general tips.

1) The Spell Compedium has heaps of ridiculously cool and useful paladin spells you can use with this class. Two of note are Knight's Move, which allows a teleport at a swift action, and Righteous Aura, which grants a sacred bonus to Charisma (so it stacks with pretty much anything, except Sacrifice, sadly) for hours and makes you self-destruct upon death, healing your allies and hurting your enemies. The down side is that afterwards you can only be raised with True Ressurection.

2) Turn undead on this Paladin is actually really, really useful. When being mobbed by lots of undead, fiends and the like, a swift-action turn can thin the crowd very well and make your life a bit easier. It gets even more useful at level 18 (or was it 19?) when you can turn anything evil. If you are going to use it a lot, the Turn-Undead special abilities are reccommended. You could still use it to do divine metamagic like the clerics do, except most of spells aren't as useful to you persisted.

3) Undead paladins can't use sacrifice without literally sacrificing themselves at the end of it. Undead paladins now need to make sure that whoever heals [harms] them has a good way of restoring mobility at the same time. They also will have a bit of trouble healing themselves without using a Special Ability to get negative energy spells. Construct paladins will simply have touble healing at all, as the Repair spells are not part of the Cleric or Bard spell line. Unliving and Construct Paladins are advised to take the Unliving Healing ability so as to be able to heal themselves at early levels without needing to invest in UMD items or sinking Special Abilities into negative energy spells.

4) Use Sacrifice carefully, and only when you are sure allies nearby can get to you immediately when you reach -1. Readied actions are very useful for this, you can move next to an ally with a readied Heal, collapse, and be immediately put back on your feet by said ally.

5) A paladin with a mount companion with spirited charge and a lance is very, very deadly.

6) If you have lots of Allies, get the defensive aura special abilities. These become even greater if you have gestalt levels in Marshal or Dragon Shaman, or if you are dragonblooded and have the Draconic Aura feat, as all your allies simply need to stay within 6 squares of you to reap double benefits.

7) Thanks to the endless Paladin level to Damage vs Evil, Two weapon fighting are actually a little bit viable, as you get double that Holy Strike damage. However, you will still be useless if you can't find ways to Full-Attack. Also, you still are a bit feat-starved, and might have trouble fulfilling the ability requirements of certain feats.

8) As No. 7, but with Archery. Unlike TWF, you can full-attack (and gain many, many extra attacks) easily for a lot of damage. With Archery, you could be even more feat-starved than with TWF, though, asides from having the same requirement-filling problem.

9) Note that Holy Strike applies to all damage from the paladin. Hitting a Zombie with a Cure Light Wounds will also net extra damage. Throwing Alchemist's fire will generate Holy Strike damage with all enemies hit with splash damage.

10) There are a fair few spells that gain deal ridiculous damage when channeled via Swift Crusader, however, most of them are high-level and not really viable until then. Of note are Bolt of Glory, up to 15d6 untyped no-save damage to an undead or evil outsider, and Heal and Harm (gained via special ability), both of which deal up to 150hp damage (Will save for half). In addition, of note is that you can combine this channelling ability with a full-attack to affect two or more allies (or one ally more than twice) with a single spell. A full-attack on an ally with a channelled Heal spell could heal 600-damage hit points.

11) Never forget the Justiciar ability, if you ever need to subdue a violent or sadistic Neutral being. The Subduing Strike feat allows you to deal non-lethal damage with absolute ease should you be required to subdue non-evil beings often.

That's pretty much all I can think of. This Paladin is best unmulticlassed, but if you are going to multiclass the best levels to exit Paladin are 3, 5, 7 and possibly 11. If you are going to play this Paladin in a Gestalt game, I recommend a class with lots of Charisma synergy (obviously). The Marshal is a good dip (you can get Charisma to Initiative using the Motivate Charisma aura), Sorcerer is good if you don't mind not wearing heavy armor, and from sorcerer you can take levels in the Abjurant Champion (+9 AC Shield, Swiftblade (Charisma to Initiative, huge benefits while hasted like extra actions) or Arcane Duelist (Charisma to AC in a 2-level dip) PRCs. Bard is also good if you would like the Snowflake Wardance feat and can ignore alignment restrictions. Martial Initiators are always good, as usual. Rogue and Scout are okay if you just want extra Skill Points. Rogue is better than Scout in general (plus Rogues have that variant is fighter bonus feats), but Scout fits better thematically (a Paladin shouldn't be a rogue!). Ranger is a very viable class if you want to play a TWF/Archery Paladin, thanks to bonus feats that don't require you to have X insane unpaladinish Dex, and you can combine Ranger with Scout for a Swift Hunter build. Ranger has little ability synergy, however. Favored Soul and Cleric are good, but the abilities you get are a bit redundant, they eat up action economy a bit and unlike the Sorcerer they don't really have all that many PRCs that could grant new benefits to the Paladin.

If you want good homebrew classes to multiclass/Gestalt with, I could suggest Lix Lorn's Proud Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151350) and Dragoonwraith's Swordmage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149724), off the top of my head. Both because they have good Charisma synergy.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-05, 10:59 PM

Beautiful thing about turning with this paladin is that it's actually good for turning (having many uses for it, and potential buffs) while it's mediocre for DMM (having less uses than the standard cleric).
Also, didn't notice that about the undead paladin & sacrifice... good point though! I'll have to do something about that.

Arq Kujos

2010-10-05, 11:04 PM

Roc, you are one of my favorite people right now. :smallbiggrin:

Allow me to retort, good sir.

1) I love the Spell Compedium. As you said, there are more goodies there than some of us know what to do with. I am only level 3 right now, but so far this is amazingly tempting.

2) I love Turn undead. It is an incredible and this class is such a great class for that. I mean, who needs the ability to turn undead more than a Paladin? And the added turning at later levels in amazing.

3) Never planned on playing an Undead Paladin, unless 4is111 has something WAY off the mark in store for me. :smalltongue:

4) Sacrifice is something I would save for a combat finisher. Thanks for the advice though.

5) Truly, enough said. Plus, Lethren needs the move help and badly.

6) I like the idea of gestaulting in Marshall or Dragon Shaman, but I need to run some numbers first.

7) As nice as TWFing is, Lethren has a 7 in Dex. Remember?

8) See Number 7.

9) Holy Strike makes my mouth water it is so good. Though, we have been fighting a lot of neutral lately.

If I was to take a class like this, I would never leave it.

As far as Gestault is concerned, I think I would probably stay with Favored Soul, though Warmage for the boom is nice, or maybe the Sorcerer sounds good.

Roc Ness

2010-10-05, 11:08 PM

Gorgondantess

2010-10-05, 11:15 PM

9) Holy Strike makes my mouth water it is so good. Though, we have been fighting a lot of neutral lately.

Remember Justiciar! Once you can get it. >.>
If it's a problem, I advise an investment in Knight Templar: that'll make it easily the majority of all enemies you face that is affected by holy strike. Also, remember the code! You attack a neutral person who isn't actively harming someone, you fall- if they're not evil, they deserve repentance as much as the next guy.

Arq Kujos

2010-10-05, 11:19 PM

Roc Ness

2010-10-05, 11:20 PM

Hey Gorgondantess? I just thought of something, you might want to put in a clause or ability somewhere that allows a Construct or Undead paladin to heal themselves with Positive Energy, so that they don't have to invest in UMD scrolls or the Harm spell.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-05, 11:23 PM

Oh yes, Justicar! I forgot about that. That would have been a big help. I think I have smote one character our entire campaign.

Oh, and I have a suggestion for special ability. What about an ability that allowed you to smite non-evil creatures for non-lethal damage? Like you said, killing non-evil creatures is grounds for falling, but I think knocking them out is still acceptable.

Hmmm... I'll think about it. While it's certainly mechanically a cool ability, I don't like the fluff: the paladin smites evil. That's his job. Anything else, well... that's not a part of his job. He's still a good fighter, but his powers don't really apply to it: in the end, he just shouldn't be fighting neutral creatures at all. If that happens on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong, or your DM reaaalllly doesn't like having evil creatures.

Hey Gorgondantess? I just thought of something, you might want to put in a clause or ability somewhere that allows a Construct or Undead paladin to heal themselves with Positive Energy, so that they don't have to invest in UMD scrolls or the Harm spell.
I'll make it a special ability.

Roc Ness

2010-10-05, 11:27 PM

I'll make it a special ability.

Okey-Doke. I guess the More to Come is fitting. :smallbiggrin:

Arq Kujos

2010-10-05, 11:30 PM

Hmmm... I'll think about it. While it's certainly mechanically a cool ability, I don't like the fluff: the paladin smites evil. That's his job. Anything else, well... that's not a part of his job. He's still a good fighter, but his powers don't really apply to it: in the end, he just shouldn't be fighting neutral creatures at all. If that happens on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong, or your DM reaaalllly doesn't like having evil creatures.

True, but think if it as a safeguard against Dms that think that just because they have neutral villains that they are making more believable campaigns. Also, eventually, Paladins may come into conflict with neutral characters and having a way of dealing with them in order to save them from their own inability to understand their folly.

And again, this is just a suggestion. I can totally see your point, but I thought this idea was atleast worth mentioning.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-05, 11:31 PM

Okey-Doke. I guess the More to Come is fitting. :smallbiggrin:

That it is: I'll keep updating the special abilities so long as I still have ideas.
Anyways, I edited in the ability.

Ziegander

2010-10-06, 12:33 AM

Also, a lot of monsters are neutral, especially ones that don't understand the ramifications of their actions. A Paladin could potentially come into conflict with a myriad of non-intelligent, neutral creatures.

Anyway, so much of this is totally awesome, so great job. There are a smattering of design decisions that I don't agree with, but on the whole this thing looks like a lot of fun to play.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-06, 12:36 AM

Also, a lot of monsters are neutral, especially ones that don't understand the ramifications of their actions. A Paladin could potentially come into conflict with a myriad of non-intelligent, neutral creatures.
Okay. Great. It still won't specialize in fighting them. This is sort of like a rogue who fights a lot of enemies immune to precision: it just sort of sucks, and there are ways around it (grave strike, golem strike), but those are still fallible and kindof hard to get, and it still doesn't mean you're useless- just that you're not as useful. You're still doing better than most melee classes, lemme tell ya.:smallbiggrin:

Anyway, so much of this is totally awesome, so great job. There are a smattering of design decisions that I don't agree with, but on the whole this thing looks like a lot of fun to play.
I would like to hear these smatterings regardless.:smallamused:

Ziegander

2010-10-06, 02:05 AM

Prepare thyself! For the long post! We'll start with some minor disagreements and then move on to the actual meat of the class.

And this is where WotC failed. Back in AD&D, the paladin was just like the fighter, but flat out better. In 3.5, the paladin is kindof like the fighter, but it doesn't have stuff like the dungeoncrasher variant to make it usable. The point of the fall and the alignment restrictions is a penalty and a restriction to balance out the paladin being more powerful than other fighter type classes.

1) I don't agree with making the class more powerful and balancing that with a code of conduct. Granting extra mechanical power in the face of a roleplay disadvantage just isn't the way I like to do things. Personally I find it unbalanced in the same way I'd find reducing mechanical power in the face of a roleplay advantage unbalanced. Your mileage may vary.

So long as the paladin does not fall to such temptations- so long as the paladin tries to find the third option in these situations- the paladin should not fall.

2) I also disagree that the existence of Cosmic Good and the existence of Paladins guarantees that there is always this happy funtime third option to be found. That seems to assume that Cosmic Good always triumphs over Cosmic Evil, and that's fine for some campaigns, but in many others (in fact most if not all of the published ones) the struggle is a constant back and forth and/or a near-eternal stalemate.

HD: d12

3) Mechanically, this doesn't bother me. +1hp/level more than the standard Paladin. Big deal. It's not like +1hp/level actually makes the Barbarian any more tough than the other meleers.

Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all armor and all shields (including tower shields). Paladins are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as the maul, warmace and bastard sword.

4) As you've pointed out, the exotics don't really add to the power, and I like that they're proficient with Tower Shields because Tower Shields are a lot of fun. This is fine.

Spellcasting:

A Paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list (see below). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score. When the table indicates that the paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Charisma score for that spell level.

The paladin's selection of spells is extremely limited. A paladin begins play knowing two 1st level spells of your choice. He also knows a number of 0th level spells (orisons) equal to his Charisma modifier. At every new paladin level, he gains two new spells drawn from the paladin spell list. These spells must be spells he is capable of casting, so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level paladin spell, but could learn a 2nd level paladin spell. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a paladin knows is not affected by his Charisma score: he learns two spells per level regardless.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third paladin level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a paladin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the paladin "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level paladin spell the paladin can cast. A paladin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a paladin need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level.

Spell List:

Orisons: As a cleric.
1st-4th levels: as a WotC paladin, plus Order's Wrath & Holy Smite as 3rd level spells.
5th level: Bolt of Glory, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Hallow, Hold Monster, Lesser Planar Ally, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, True Seeing, Wall of Fire.
6th level: Antimagic Field, Bull's Strength (mass), Crown of Glory, Dictum, Dispel Magic (greater), Eagle's Splendor (mass), Heal, Holy Word, Power Word: Blind, Sunbeam.

Aura of Good (ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. Any evil creature using detect good on the paladin must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha mod) or the spell immediately ends and they are dazed for 1 round.

5) First real issue. You raised the spells to Bardic progression and yet you hardly altered their spell list. I think perhaps you held back slightly more than necessary. I would have added a bunch more spells to levels 1-4 and added more to levels 5 and 6. Especially if I was trying to make this rival CoDzilla. Still avoid a lot of the Divine Persist shenanigans, but there's plenty of other spells that could have made it.

But honestly, I prefer a Paladin that doesn't cast spells, but that's just my personal taste. I hate the spells and slots per day mechanics of the 3.5 spellcasters (not to say I prefer the 4e way either...).

Detect Evil (su): The paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell, as well as detect good.

6) I think most of the confusion people are having with this is that Detect Evil is an effect with duration of Concentration and has different effects depending on how long you Concentrate. I assume you just intend for them to be able to Concentrate whenever they feel like to begin a Detect Evil effect? This could be clarified, but it makes sense to me.

The alternative would be that they constantly are aware of the presence of Evil creatures without needing to use any specific action, and then you might need to specify "how aware" they are (with respect to the different information Detect Evil grants each round).

Holy Smite (su): The paladin is infused with divine energies: any evil creature damaged by the paladin takes additional damage equal to the paladin's class level.

7) I have another issue with this one, mostly because it has negligible benefit at the lowest levels. I'd rather it have some serious oomph at all levels of play. What about 1d6 damage/paladin level with a Will save for half? Your example of a hasted, full attacking 20th level Pally would deal 100d6 to an evil creature, and only an evil creature (avg of 400dmg, or with a successful save avg 200dmg), as a full round action, and only if he hits with all five attacks. A 17th level Warblade can deal 100dmg to any creature as a standard action. Seems fair to me.

Just Templar: The Paladin is recognizable as a servant of justice: they gain a +4 bonus to all ability & skill checks made to sway a judge or otherwise as a part of the legal process.
Additionally, the paladin gains a bonus to diplomacy and sense motive checks equal to 1/2 his class levels: these bonuses stack.

8) Nitpick: I would just say that the Paladin gains a bonus equal to 4+1/2 paladin level to charisma skill and ability checks made to interact with all Lawful and/or Good creatures. a) It's simpler. b) The Paladin shouldn't be any better than normal at dealing with Evil or Chaotic creatures.

Turn Undead (su): The Paladin may turn undead as a cleric. The paladin may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day. The Paladin can have negative uses from low charisma.

9) How does the concept of "negative uses" of a per day ability work exactly? It should read "[...] may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day, to a minimum of 0."

Divine Grace (su): The Paladin gains a bonus to all saves equal to her charisma modifier. The Paladin can have a penalty from low charisma.

10) I like this. What was, and still is, a really powerful ability, is now also a double-edged sword.

Swift Crusader (su): a number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may either cast a spell that normally takes a standard action or turn undead (or anything else she can turn) as a swift action.
Additionally, the paladin may expend one use of Swift Crusader to channel a spell through a melee attack, during either a standard attack or a full attack action.

11) Much more balanced than the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion, although you might have gotten away with adding more uses.

Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the paladin gains a special ability chosen from the pool below.

12) Nitpick: Can you please move the list of special abilities to directly under this heading? For a while I thought Justiciar, Holy Strike, Turn Demon, etc were Special Abilities rather than class features.

Justiciar (ex): A number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may, as a free action, consider all creatures evil until the end of the round for the purposes of spells or abilities originating from the paladin. For example, the paladin may expend a use to attack a non-evil enemy and still gain the bonus to damage from holy smite.
This does not extend to the paladin's code of conduct- for example, if he kills an innocent, good creature with this ability, the paladin will still fall.

13) This seems completely and entirely out of character for the Paladin as you've written it and interpreted its code of conduct. Also, this will cause some wonky results with certain spells or effects because of the "all creatures" clause (such as catching allies within the area of a Holy Word spell, and other things of that nature).

Turn Demon: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the evil subtype as he would normally turn undead.

Turn Anarch: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the chaotic subtype as he would normally turn undead.

Turn Mutant: The Paladin may turn evil aligned aberrations as he would normally turn undead.

Turn Evil: The Paladin may turn any evil aligned creature as he would turn undead.

14) This is great stuff. :)

Destroy the Destroyer: The Paladin's bonus to attack and damage against evil creatures due to Holy Strike and Holy Smite is doubled when the creature in question is chaotic evil. In addition, the paladin's charisma modifier is doubled for the purposes of turning checks & turning damage against chaotic evil creatures.

15) If you decided to take my suggestion for Smite you could just deny Chaotic Evil creatures their Will save to halve the damage.

Holy Surge: In times of dire need, the paladin expels all his divine power in one surge: as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the paladin may cast both a miracle and wish spell with no xp cost. The paladin immediately "falls" as a part of this action: the atonement spell cast uses half the xp that would have been spent on the wish & miracle spell.
A paladin will often use this ability in times of dire need, such as when presented a scenario where, whatever the choice, he will fall.

16) I really, really don't like this ability. There's no need to call shenanigans, because this is shenanigans. It's the "hey, I'm really mechanically powerful, but to balance it out I have a code of conduct that says I can't do stuff. Oh, **** it, I'm just gonna go ahead and do whatever I want, and then go get an Atonement from McChapel over there," button. And it's absurdly powerful reality revision which is essentially at-will, which doesn't feel like something any Paladin should be able to do anyway.

Ineffable Justiciar: As Justiciar, but permanent. The bonuses presented from destroy the destroyer now extend to all actually evil creatures (not including creatures considered evil under Ineffable Justiciar).

17) As before. This seemed out of place as a per day feature and feels even more out of place to me as a constant ability. I know you've included it so that the Paladin can be useful against non-Evil creatures, but in your own words, "[...] in the end, he just shouldn't be fighting neutral creatures at all. If that happens on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong[...]".

Expanded Zeal:
The paladin may add any spell from the bard or cleric spell list to his spells known of a level no higher than his current highest paladin spell known. This spell is of a level one higher than normal: for example, if a paladin of at least 6th level took heroism from the bard spell list, he would cast it as a 3rd level spell.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Each time, it applies to a different spell.

18) Actually, this can apply to the Exalted Paladin one too. Given the choice between gaining an Exalted feat or adding a single spell to my spell list, and picking up an awesome, unique class feature I'm going to go with the latter every time. The other Special Abilities seem to not only give me more bang for my buck, but are just cool and unique. Of course, this is more of a minor point since these are fully the player's choice, I just thought it couldn't hurt to bring it up.

Improved Turning:
The paladin gains +1 use of turning per day, +1 to turning checks, and +1 to turning damage.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack.

19) Feels very, very weak compared to the other special abilities.

Powerful Turn:
Requires: Improved Turning.
All creatures successfully turned are shaken for the duration. This is not a mind-affecting effect.

20) So they flee from you as fast as they can and they take a -2 penalty to attacks and saves while doing it? I'm not sure this is worth it honestly. They're evading you to the best of their ability. If they're any good at it this extra penalty doesn't matter that much.

Dazing Turn:
Requires: Powerful Turn
All creatures who would be shaken due to powerful turn are instead dazed.

21) Now this one is interesting, and actually really powerful. Instead of running away now they just sit there and do nothing for 1 whole minute! Pretty nuts. Maybe too nuts.

Stunning Turn:
Requires: Dazing Turn
All creatures who would be dazed due to dazing turn are instead stunned.

22) Another case where this might not be worth it. Many more creatures are immune to Stun than immune to Daze, and the added AC penalty isn't all that huge most of the time.

Anyway, I think that's all I've got. Anything I didn't specifically comment on I thought was fine as is.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-06, 02:36 AM

Prepare thyself! For the long post! We'll start with some minor disagreements and then move on to the actual meat of the class.
Hot damn.:smalleek:

1) I don't agree with making the class more powerful and balancing that with a code of conduct. Granting extra mechanical power in the face of a roleplay disadvantage just isn't the way I like to do things. Personally I find it unbalanced in the same way I'd find reducing mechanical power in the face of a roleplay advantage unbalanced. Your mileage may vary.
It does indeed.

2) I also disagree that the existence of Cosmic Good and the existence of Paladins guarantees that there is always this happy funtime third option to be found. That seems to assume that Cosmic Good always triumphs over Cosmic Evil, and that's fine for some campaigns, but in many others (in fact most if not all of the published ones) the struggle is a constant back and forth and/or a near-eternal stalemate.
Goddammit... Okay, I think I need to include an addendum there. I'm not saying there is always a third option that will succeed: I'm saying a paladin will always try to find one, no matter how hopeless it may be.

3, 4
Cool.

5) First real issue. You raised the spells to Bardic progression and yet you hardly altered their spell list. I think perhaps you held back slightly more than necessary. I would have added a bunch more spells to levels 1-4 and added more to levels 5 and 6. Especially if I was trying to make this rival CoDzilla. Still avoid a lot of the Divine Persist shenanigans, but there's plenty of other spells that could have made it.[/spoiler]
Core paladin? Yeah, that has a mediocre spell list. But once the spell compendium hits the scene, you're golden: I was honestly counting on that.

But honestly, I prefer a Paladin that doesn't cast spells, but that's just my personal taste. I hate the spells and slots per day mechanics of the 3.5 spellcasters (not to say I prefer the 4e way either...).
So... you don't like D&D spellcasting, period?:smallconfused:

6) I think most of the confusion people are having with this is that Detect Evil is an effect with duration of Concentration and has different effects depending on how long you Concentrate. I assume you just intend for them to be able to Concentrate whenever they feel like to begin a Detect Evil effect? This could be clarified, but it makes sense to me.

The alternative would be that they constantly are aware of the presence of Evil creatures without needing to use any specific action, and then you might need to specify "how aware" they are (with respect to the different information Detect Evil grants each round).
Hmmm... okay. I'll try specifying sometime. Good point.

7) I have another issue with this one, mostly because it has negligible benefit at the lowest levels. I'd rather it have some serious oomph at all levels of play. What about 1d6 damage/paladin level with a Will save for half? Your example of a hasted, full attacking 20th level Pally would deal 100d6 to an evil creature, and only an evil creature (avg of 400dmg, or with a successful save avg 200dmg), as a full round action, and only if he hits with all five attacks. A 17th level Warblade can deal 100dmg to any creature as a standard action. Seems fair to me.
Negligible benefit at low levels is A-OK to me. I structured this so that it wasn't a dip class.
Anyways, holy smite is just one small item in a paladin's arsenal: it's just to give a little oomph to his attacks not some serious oomph. Serious oomph comes in with sacrifice and turning.

8) Nitpick: I would just say that the Paladin gains a bonus equal to 4+1/2 paladin level to charisma skill and ability checks made to interact with all Lawful and/or Good creatures. a) It's simpler. b) The Paladin shouldn't be any better than normal at dealing with Evil or Chaotic creatures.
Yes, he should. He should be able to offer them the chance at redemption (convincingly), and be able to tell when they're deceiving him. That was my goal here. The courts thing was mostly fluff.

9) How does the concept of "negative uses" of a per day ability work exactly? It should read "[...] may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day, to a minimum of 0."
Oh, it doesn't. It's really meaningless. I just sortof wanted to convey that it can hit 0: I'll clarify, I suppose.

10) I like this. What was, and still is, a really powerful ability, is now also a double-edged sword.
Yeppers!:smallbiggrin:

11) Much more balanced than the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion, although you might have gotten away with adding more uses.
Eh, I could've. I didn't want to. A lot of paladin spells are swift actions already.

12) Nitpick: Can you please move the list of special abilities to directly under this heading? For a while I thought Justiciar, Holy Strike, Turn Demon, etc were Special Abilities rather than class features.
Nope, but I'll specify that they're at the bottom of the page.

13) This seems completely and entirely out of character for the Paladin as you've written it and interpreted its code of conduct. Also, this will cause some wonky results with certain spells or effects because of the "all creatures" clause (such as catching allies within the area of a Holy Word spell, and other things of that nature).
How so? If a paladin kills a good creature, they'll still fall. It's just so that they don't get shafted when their DM sends neutral creatures at them all the time.
Ever play Mass Effect? The original paladins were sortof like Specters: agents who were so above the law, they were the law. If a paladin deems the destruction of a non-evil creature a good thing, then he should be able to smite said creature, no?
Though the holy word thing is a good point. I'll change 'all' to 'any'.:smallamused:

14) This is great stuff. :)
Honestly, I threw all the turning stuff in as filler. I didn't know it was a good idea until after I'd already posted the class.:smalltongue:

15) If you decided to take my suggestion for Smite you could just deny Chaotic Evil creatures their Will save to halve the damage.
Which I won't. Sorry.

16) I really, really don't like this ability. There's no need to call shenanigans, because this is shenanigans. It's the "hey, I'm really mechanically powerful, but to balance it out I have a code of conduct that says I can't do stuff. Oh, **** it, I'm just gonna go ahead and do whatever I want, and then go get an Atonement from McChapel over there," button. And it's absurdly powerful reality revision which is essentially at-will, which doesn't feel like something any Paladin should be able to do anyway.
Well, have fun churning out all your xp.

17) As before. This seemed out of place as a per day feature and feels even more out of place to me as a constant ability. I know you've included it so that the Paladin can be useful against non-Evil creatures, but in your own words, "[...] in the end, he just shouldn't be fighting neutral creatures at all. If that happens on a regular basis, you're probably doing something wrong[...]".
...Or the DM is shafting you. That's a possibility. And at level 20, you're probably fighting things that just can't be reasoned with, evil or no.

18) Actually, this can apply to the Exalted Paladin one too. Given the choice between gaining an Exalted feat or adding a single spell to my spell list, and picking up an awesome, unique class feature I'm going to go with the latter every time. The other Special Abilities seem to not only give me more bang for my buck, but are just cool and unique. Of course, this is more of a minor point since these are fully the player's choice, I just thought it couldn't hurt to bring it up.
They're just options I felt like throwing in. However, note that the expanded zeal allows you to get spells outside of your spell list:

19) Feels very, very weak compared to the other special abilities.
Maybe. It's a requisite: sortof like dodge.

20) So they flee from you as fast as they can and they take a -2 penalty to attacks and saves while doing it? I'm not sure this is worth it honestly. They're evading you to the best of their ability. If they're any good at it this extra penalty doesn't matter that much.
Hmm... good point. Some of the special abilities were sortof rushed, I'll admit.

21) Now this one is interesting, and actually really powerful. Instead of running away now they just sit there and do nothing for 1 whole minute! Pretty nuts. Maybe too nuts.
Requires two mediocre other abilities though. I knew this had to happen: I also knew it was too powerful to be present without balancing. See how Gorgie's mind works?:smallamused:

22) Another case where this might not be worth it. Many more creatures are immune to Stun than immune to Daze, and the added AC penalty isn't all that huge most of the time.
Ah, but it is! I suppose. I'll look into it.

Anyways... thanks for the comments. I'll make with the editing first thing in the morning.

White Blade

2010-10-06, 10:21 AM

No idea who it is. Isn't Angel, isn't Spike...

It is Spike, actually, right after he killed the Chinese Slayer. Hence the Buddha in the background.

I think.

Lix Lorn

2010-10-06, 11:18 AM

Oooh. Thanks.

White Blade

2010-10-09, 08:21 PM

I feel I should comment helpfully now that I've pointed out that it's Spike. Firstly, I really enjoyed the class and it gives me a picture of a much more EPIC paladin than prior versions have. In particular, I get an image of an angry, mighty Paladin standing alone on a wall, turning back (or destroying) waves of evil minions with a single turning effect, beating the ever-living crap out of their master as there is an evacuation. Which is probably exactly what you were going for.

Unfortunately, there is just one minor problem, namely that as you get higher up in level, you turn more and more things. This leads to an added and messy situation. As a Paladin, I am unable to kill any evil creatures that I am not legally allowed to kill. The following situation is perfectly reasonable, I think, so follow along, though of course it smacks of a contrived

I've reached level eighteen and have advanced in the service of my king, who has ordered me to protect and guide his (evil) son (I took the Leadership feat, and the DM and I worked it out so he is my level 9 cohort. He's been leveling up quickly, but the DM can't justify having a level 16 heir right off), in the hopes that some of my scrumptious goodness will rub off. We have a long-term arrangement, and off we go to fight the enemy hordes! Charge and all that.

So here we are on the frontlines, we're back to back alone against what looks like an infinite orc horde (because the prince, in a solidly positive show, agreed to stay and fight with me as we tried to hold the line while a horde of innocents evacuated.) and I activate my (crazy over-active) turning ability.... And suddenly, I vaporize my prince. The turning mechanism doesn't allow for targeting, and I had the misfortune of rolling the maximum amount on my turning check.

That's a particularly detailed explanation for what is basically a statement that Turning doesn't have a targeting mechanism, but I wanted to give a good, reasonable situation where the options don't include, "Get sixty feet from the evil teammate"

EDIT: I suppose I should note that I am unsure from the text as to whether or not each turning action is a whole new set (I.E. I can turn Anarch or Evil Outsider or Undead) or they just merge (IE I turn Anarchs, Demons, and Undead with one single turning move)

EDIT II: There looks like there are a couple of instances that will cause some havoc as well, if it comes up. Perhaps you should add a clause to the code stating that, "As a paladin's abilities are all derived from his personal holiness, they never accidentally transgress the paladin's code or work against his holy purpose. In any instance where they might do so, they do not, either ignoring targets who might otherwise be victims of them or affecting them in a way that won't cause permanent damage." Also, I misunderstood slightly, so my cohort is even lower level now. Oh well.

Omegamatt

2010-10-10, 11:02 PM

What about lay on hands and divine health?

Galileo

2010-10-11, 02:07 AM

White Blade, each of the Turn upgrades states that "The Paladin may turn ..." This may just be the MtG player in me speaking, but I interpret that as implying that the Paladin has a choice over whether they do actually turn whatever the turn improvement applies to.
But then, I often assume that characters have control over their abilities and can disable them as they wish, unless it is stated otherwise.

Kobold-Bard

2010-10-11, 02:09 AM

What about lay on hands and divine health?

I asked about that, he gave them a special ability that grants Fast Healing in a 30ft area.

Godless_Paladin

2010-10-11, 11:53 PM

The question any rebalance of the Paladin has to ask itself is...

"Why is this a better Paladin than a Cleric? What do I add to the concept that can't be done just as well by that class?"

Certainly, in the RAW, if you want to be a holy warrior who can smite evil, lay on hands, detect evil at will, inspire her allies to acts of heroism, and be a knight in shining armor... a Cleric does every aspect of that better than the Paladin. Not just mechanical aspects either, Clerics can totally pull more flavor and variety out of the role. And she can do this at level 1. Not only that, but she can just as easily be a Blackguard, or a paragon of Law or Chaos or whatever, instead of simply being restricted to the Lawful Good archetype.

In fact, the Cleric is so effective at fulfilling this role, one wonders why you would need a new paladin at all, other than to shove it to WotC for incompetent class design and show that you can do it better than they can. Which is exactly why the Rebalanced Paladin I was involved with was made anyways.

One of the most straightforward solutions to creating a new paladin is simply to become aware of the many ways to play one as a cleric. This also gets around all the hassle of having to convince your DM to accept a revision, no matter how good it is.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-11, 11:59 PM

The question any rebalance of the Paladin has to ask itself is...

"Why is this a better Paladin than a Cleric?"

Certainly, in the RAW, if you want to be a holy warrior who can smite evil, lay on hands, detect evil at will, inspire her allies to acts of heroism, and be a knight in shining armor... a Cleric does every aspect of that better than the Paladin. Not just mechanical aspects either, Clerics can totally pull more flavor and variety out of the role. And she can do this at level 1. Not only that, but she can just as easily be a Blackguard, or a paragon of Law or Chaos or whatever, instead of simply being restricted to the Lawful Good archetype.

In fact, the Cleric is so effective at fulfilling this role, one wonders why you would need a new paladin at all, other than to shove it WotC for being incompetent and show that you can do it way better than they can. Which is exactly why the Rebalanced Paladin I was involved with was made anyways.

...And what, exactly, are you trying to say by this?:smallconfused:

What about lay on hands and divine health?
I gave the paladin that... just a version that preserves action economy.:smallcool:

White Blade, each of the Turn upgrades states that "The Paladin may turn ..." This may just be the MtG player in me speaking, but I interpret that as implying that the Paladin has a choice over whether they do actually turn whatever the turn improvement applies to.
But then, I often assume that characters have control over their abilities and can disable them as they wish, unless it is stated otherwise.
Ayup. That's what I was intending. D&D & MTG are made by the same people, after all.:smallamused:

Godless_Paladin

2010-10-12, 12:03 AM

...And what, exactly, are you trying to say by this?:smallconfused::smallannoyed:

Nothing really. Just thinking out loud. No offense was intended to anybody, if that's how you interpreted me. I'm not criticizing you or your paladin.

I'm putting forth something to think about in terms of expanding on your concept.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-12, 12:04 AM

Nothing really. Just thinking out loud. No offense was intended to anybody, if that's how you interpreted me.

Ah. Well, okay then. Would you like to say anything about the class? That's sortof what this thread is all about.:smalltongue:

Godless_Paladin

2010-10-12, 12:09 AM

Ah. Well, okay then. Would you like to say anything about the class? That's sortof what this thread is all about.:smalltongue:

Sure. Some of the points are a clear step in the right direction, such as granting them 4 skill points per level. I do have some issues with other parts of the class, though, if you'd like to hear it. I'll keep my thoughts to myself if you don't, though.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-12, 12:10 AM

Sure. Some of the points are a clear step in the right direction, such as granting them 4 skill points per level. I do have some issues with other parts of the class, though, if you'd like to hear it. I'll keep my thoughts to myself if you don't, though.

Do you know what PEACH stands for? Please Examine And Criticize Honestly. I wouldn't open this thread if I wanted to hear only praise- that would be lovely and all, but in the end not very constructive.

Lord_Gareth

2010-10-12, 12:13 AM

Honestly Gorgon, I like the paladin you presented (though it will never replace OneWinged4ngel's in my heart, sorry), I've been vastly disappointed by its counterparts, both in terms of fluff and mechanics. Yeah, a lot of the concepts are original, but very often you seem to be playing to extreme and unnecessary stereotypes (read: Anarch = crazy). I dunno, I guess I woulda taken it a different way.

If I could actually muster the will to do so, mind >.> You get props for actually buckling down and doing the work.

I would like to note that of all the "fallen" PrCs, I honestly like none of them, and they all seem pretty weak to me.

Gorgondantess

2010-10-12, 12:46 AM

Godless_Paladin

2010-10-12, 01:52 AM

Text:
So, by my opinion, the Paladin is easily one of the worst designed classes in D&D. Okay. This is a sound conclusion. The Paladin leaves much to be desired in terms of game design, as it is strictly inferior at its own role, both flavorfully and mechanically, than other classes.

Now, honestly, I like the fall. You could just do away with it, remove the alignment requirement and such, and then make the paladin simply a spiritual warrior, but I like it as is. I like the idea of a holy warrior who won't kill an innocent in order to save a whole town, in one of those contrived circumstances people on this forum tend to think up. It's not that the paladin doesn't realize that it would be better to save a town at the expense of the innocent, or doesn't care: it's that the paladin's unwavering faith, the thing that gives him power, tells him that there's another way, and forces him to find it.
So, I'm okay with the fall... but the point of the paladin is that he gains his powers from the fall, from his unwavering faith. In other words: he's powerful.

And this is where WotC failed. Back in AD&D, the paladin was just like the fighter, but flat out better. In 3.5, the paladin is kindof like the fighter, but it doesn't have stuff like the dungeoncrasher variant to make it usable. The point of the fall and the alignment restrictions is a penalty and a restriction to balance out the paladin being more powerful than other fighter type classes. Errr.... this is where you've lost me. Fall is cool and all, but he doesn't need to be a "just plain better" class. He's still fighting to be a "half-decent" class who can do something more impressive than just Rhino Rush cheese charge people all day for arbitrary stacks of damage. The paladin needs to feel like a HERO, and he doesn't do that. Like, at all.

[/quote]So, let's succeed where WotC failed. I've seen a lot of paladin fixes, but most of them bring it up to mid-high tier 4: I'm shooting for something that'll be competitive with a CoDzilla.[/quote] If it's only as good as a CoDzilla melee cleric, (which is essentially a Paladin, with smite, detect evil at will, heavy armor, a greatsword, and a magic horse, not to mention lots of other fun tools), what's the point? This is the question you should ask yourself. How can you *better* the concept of a paladin in a way that the actual Cleric class doesn't already cover? In order to properly answer this, it's a good idea to find out the breadth of options you have, in build and in game, as a Paladin Cleric.

...Wish me luck.:smalleek: Best wishes :)

In addition, the paladin has a code of conduct.
The Paladin must always act with honor, respect legitimate and just authority (so long as said authority does not command him to commit an evil act), help those in need, never under any circumstances harm an innocent or commit an evil act, and work to uphold the law at all times unless said law would go against the other tenets of the code. A paladin can't kill a baby to save a village. Unless it is justified under the law, killing someone just because they are evil is considered an evil act, and will cause the paladin to fall- all evil creatures deserve redemption. The paladin must have just reason to believe the evil creature in question is going to do him or an innocent harm to harm the evil creatures.
A paladin must do his best to uphold righteous authority wherever he goes, and make himself available as a lawful figure for resolving conflicts.
A paladin may only kill a neutral creature if they are in the process of attacking the paladin, his allies, or an innocent, or doing something that would help bring about the harm of the paladin, his allies, or an innocent.
The paladin may, under no circumstances, kill a good creature.
Nonsentient creatures do not extend to this clause, though the paladin may not kill a nonsentient creature if it would be illegal to do so.
Any paladin who ceases to be lawful good or knowingly violates this code of conduct is considered to have a charisma score of 1 until proper atonement is made.
To be completely honest, I find this worse than the writeup for the Paladin's Code in the PHB. Give people tools to tailor their own stories and flesh out their own philosophies and such. "Lawful Good" can mean many different things, but this is unnecessarily restrictive, and far moreso than the PHB one.

I like something more like...

Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment, and abide by a higher standard of morals and honor than the average Good-aligned person. Indeed, she is the paragon of heroic Good, drawn to a higher cause. Truly she is a person of high calibre, moral and otherwise.

There is a code of conduct presented in the PHB, but it really is better classified as an example of a generic paladin's vows and code. However, in your game being a paladin may mean quite a different thing altogether! After all, not all settings and cultures are the same, nor are all paladins. They serve various causes and deities, and the nature of Good and Evil is not always so stereotypically straightforward in all settings. Your code should represent the beliefs of your church or cause or whatever it is you, as a paladin, fight for!

Talk with your DM about what it means to be a paladin in your campaign, and the implications of it. If you are the DM, consider this, and what it really is to be the paragon of good in your campaign. It should be noted that a single mistake or lack of perfection should not make a paladin fall. Indeed, is it not the lack of perfection and ultimately human(oid) nature of such a heroic figure that makes him all the more endearing and, truly, notable in calibre? After all, any old celestial can be perfect, but a man has to work for it.

Instead, the paladin falls from grace if she grossly violates her code (as stated, yet all too often overlooked, in the PHB. This means that some minor infraction would *not* make the Paladin fall and cease to have any abilities whatsoever), or if she changes alignment from Lawful Good. Your alignment should be your overall personality and outlook, not the result of the last action you took (although that last action *could* be considered to grossly violate the paladin's code, of course. The paladin's code is not synonymous with alignment). It should be extremely rare for a single act to alter your alignment, and it certainly shouldn't be so if the act was not done with wrongful intentions. Alignment changes should usually be the result of fairly consistent behavior of a character (while an act that your God grossly disapproves of in her paladins can happen very suddenly).

So long as the paladin does not fall to such temptations- so long as the paladin tries to find the third option in these situations- the paladin should not fall. This doesn't mean the third option is practical, or even possible, but the paladin should always at least try.

This code may be altered in minor ways, subject to DM approval. In general, however, it must remain strongly lawful good, and be founded in ideals as opposed to practicality.

Abilities: Strength and constitution are important, as they are for any melee class. Wisdom now takes a backseat to charisma- in fact, wisdom has no place for the paladin, aside from skills & will saves. I rather like wise paladins. There are very good examples of them in fiction. They aren't just shiny goody two-shoes, they actually have an inspiring and insightful view on life (and on the nature of people, a la Sense Motive etc). But YMMV. This is largely up to preference, but it's just another reason I like Clericadins. Anyways, your implementation here is odd. You have all kinds of tools to create wiser, more willful paladins (resistance to compulsions, bonus to sense motive, divine grace, etc etc) yet encourage Paladins to dump Wisdom, basically evening that out.

Class Skills: Concentration, Craft , Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Rope. How about Spellcraft? It's a spellcasting class after all. Then again, the original Paladin didn't have it either. Not a huge deal, either way.

Skill Points per Level: 4+Int Modifier. A solid step in the right direction. Paladins absolutely need more skills. It's a pain to see everyone only having space for Concentration / Knowledge (Religion)

Proficiencies: Paladins are proficient with all armor and all shields (including tower shields). Paladins are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as the maul, warmace and bastard sword. I notice some new weapons added in. I'm not immediatey familiar with the maul or warmace but this rule is basically saying that a paladin will never against wield Tyr's favored longsword. Still, no big deal either way, and bastard swords slightly increase the attractiveness of shields (which are pretty unattractive, which is a shame. That's certainly an angle you can expand on: Creating houserules that make sword and board more attractive for the bastion in shining armor who stands as a stalwart protector to his friends. It's certainly something that the RAW system *does not* handle well, and something you could add that a Clericadin doesn't generally do. Think about it)

Spellcasting:
A Paladin casts divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list (see below). He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the paladin's Charisma modifier. Less MAD is more powerful. Anyways, this change is fine. As I said above, statistics are a matter of preference, and should relate to what kind of flavor you want for the class (e.g., if Paladins are dumping wisdom, more easily manipulated, fooled, or dominated, as well as being less observant and aware of their surroundings or the psychology of other people. On the other hand, you've offset all this by giving them Sense Motive, Divine Grace, and bonuses against compulsions).

The paladin's selection of spells is extremely limited. A paladin begins play knowing two 1st level spells of your choice. He also knows a number of 0th level spells (orisons) equal to his Charisma modifier. At every new paladin level, he gains two new spells drawn from the paladin spell list. These spells must be spells he is capable of casting, so that a third level paladin could not learn a 6th level paladin spell, but could learn a 2nd level paladin spell. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a paladin knows is not affected by his Charisma score: he learns two spells per level regardless.

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third paladin level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a paladin can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the paladin "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least one level lower than the highest-level paladin spell the paladin can cast. A paladin may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a paladin need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell's level. Certainly an improvement over the original paladin's spell list. Not impressive, and there are many points that could be improved upon (like having access to actually relevant healing for his character level! This guy's inferior to a 750g Healing Belt and never really gets better until he gets Heal. Consider possibilities like Delay Death + Diehard that a Cleric pulls for "A Hero Never Falls" moments and other epic paladinly scenes that they can do with their spells that this guy can't. Let the Paladin have the choice Cleric Paladin spells! Let the Paladin actually be relevant as a healer in a way other than being able to carry a wand around!), but it's better than the old Paladin. Not needing to prepare spells is great, too, and in my mind entirely fitting for the flavor of the Paladin. I don't really see them as sitting in prayer to set up their spells in advance. They are the favored servants of their deity and can call divine power spontaneously. I always felt they had more in common with favored souls than clerics in this regard, so I approve.

Spell List:

Orisons: As a cleric.
1st-4th levels: as a WotC paladin, plus Order's Wrath & Holy Smite as 3rd level spells.
5th level: Bolt of Glory, Cure Critical Wounds, Cure Light Wounds (mass), Dismissal, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Hallow, Hold Monster, Lesser Planar Ally, Righteous Might, Stoneskin, True Seeing, Wall of Fire.
6th level: Antimagic Field, Bull's Strength (mass), Crown of Glory, Dictum, Dispel Magic (greater), Eagle's Splendor (mass), Heal, Holy Word, Power Word: Blind, Sunbeam.

Aura of Good (ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. Any evil creature using detect good on the paladin must make a will save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha mod) or the spell immediately ends and they are dazed for 1 round. What, really? Any evil creature that looks at the paladin w/DG has to save or stun? What was wrong with the original rules for aura of good causing stuns via Detect Good?

Detect Evil (su): The paladin gains the benefits of a permanent detect evil spell, as well as detect good. He can tell whether a creature is good or evil at a glance, and he can concentrate to gain the full effects of the spell. Poorly written. You gain from a permanent spell effect, but not really the full effect unless you concentrate? Clarify what you mean. Also, having an always-on 60 foot cone (or radius) of Detect that doesn't require concentration is actually a pretty darned effective ability that can screw over Rogues, so it's something that you want to write up with "people will actually use this to win fights" in mind, rather than as a sort of fluffy afterthought.

Holy Smite (su): The paladin is infused with divine energies: any evil creature damaged by the paladin takes additional damage equal to the paladin's class level. Don't like it. It's a rather boring vanilla damage boost, and does not capture any of the potential flair of pulling out that awesome smite to vanquish the greatest evil at the penultimate moment of the boss battle. It's just the same smite you used on his goblin minions after all. This doesn't really capture any of the potential epicness that Smite Evil could have.

Plus, this isn't actually a huge addition to the Paladin. If there's one thing the old paladin could already do, it was 100+ damage at level 5 with charge shenanigans. The paladin's problem wasn't that he couldn't find anywhere for damage to come from. He needs options, versatility in-game, utility... and the cool factor. There are so many places the Paladin concept could go with that that are sadly left unattended.

Just Templar: The Paladin is recognizable as a servant of justice: they gain a +4 bonus to all ability & skill checks made to sway a judge or otherwise as a part of the legal process.
Additionally, the paladin gains a bonus to diplomacy and sense motive checks equal to 1/2 his class levels: these bonuses stack. OK, so it seems you want to counteract the will saves and the easily fooled and not wise counsel part of making them cha focused instead of wis like a cleric. It seems odd that you seem to be saying that Paladins have all the benefits of wisdom while actually being fools under the class features with their 8 Wis (e.g. suddenly they can't sense motive if they Fall, without much conviction or will of any kind). I don't feel so great about that, whatever.

I mean, it seems like your picture is of the Wise paladin archetype, rather than the Big Dumb Hero (which is what the stat array will look like, Int and Wis are dump skills for this class). What's up with this? Your vision doesn't really have a cohesive flavor to me in this respect.

Turn Undead (su): The Paladin may turn undead as a cleric. The paladin may turn 1+charisma modifier times per day. If the charisma modifier is negative, it will subtract from this amount, to a minimum of 0. Why less times than the Cleric? Well, it'll probably turn out to be equal or more anyways, because of the Charisma focus, so whatever.

Unwavering Devotion (ex): The Paladin is immune to fear, and gains a +4 bonus versus charms and compulsions cast by evil creatures. OK.

Divine Grace (su): The Paladin gains a bonus to all saves equal to her charisma modifier. The Paladin can have a penalty from low charisma. As before, the Paladin does damage and has a high fort and will save.

Swift Crusader (su): a number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may either cast a spell that normally takes a standard action or turn undead (or anything else she can turn) as a swift action. So... Battle Blessing (what the old Paladin had), except limited to times per day, and no utility with full round spells, but you save a feat slot. Meh.

Additionally, the paladin may expend one use of Swift Crusader to channel a spell through a melee attack, during either a standard attack or a full attack action. This needs clarification. Anyways, clerics already do this via smiting spell, spell storing weapons, ordained champion... whatever.

Special Ability: At 4th level and every 3 levels thereafter, the paladin gains a special ability chosen from the pool at the bottom of the page. Oh goody, maybe here I'll see something that will actually add new functionality rather than shifting numbers around! Let's see what we've got here.

Justiciar (ex): A number of times per day as shown on the table above, the paladin may, as a free action, consider any creatures evil until the end of the round for the purposes of spells or abilities originating from the paladin. For example, the paladin may expend a use to attack a non-evil enemy and still gain the bonus to damage from holy smite.
This does not extend to the paladin's code of conduct- for example, if he kills an innocent, good creature with this ability, the paladin will still fall. So, apply your normal numbers to nonevil guys. Meh.

Holy Strike (su): The paladin's weapon is guided by divine forces to evil foes. He gains a bonus equal to his charisma modifier to attack rolls against evil creatures. More extra damage against evil guys... *yawn*

I had no trouble doing obscene damage to evil guys with the core paladin. I don't need any more.

Turn Demon: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the evil subtype as he would normally turn undead. Okay.

Sacrifice: Starting at 9th level, once per day (and an additional once per day per 5 levels thereafter) the paladin may, as a free action, pour all of his life into his ideals. For a number of rounds equal to his charisma modifier, he glows with holy fire, ignited by his very life. This gives him a number of benefits.
First, he gains a +4 sacred bonus to strength & charisma for the duration (which extends the duration accordingly).
His weapons are considered one size category larger for purposes of damage, and the holy fires extend to the weapon, letting it deal an additional 1d12 damage per 5 paladin levels, up to 4d12 at level 20. Half of this damage is fire, and half is sacred.
Any spells with the evil descriptor, or SLAs from creatures with the evil subtype cast against the paladin that allow SR automatically fail.

At the end of this duration, the paladin collapses to the ground, at -1 hp and stable. If the paladin is of a type that would be destroyed at that hp total, he collapses to the ground at 1 hp and unconscious for a number of rounds equal to his sacrifice duration. Whee, more damage. Isn't there a level 1 paladin spell that pretty much already does this? The important part here is the spell immunity that obviates a limited selection of creatures entirely. Sorry, Evil Descriptor Baddies. Forget turning them. No one actually cares about falling to -1 hp at the end of the fight. Heck I do that all the time with my Cleric/Prestige Paladin who goes Delay Death / Blade of Blood / Divine Sacrifice and hits herself for 25+ damage every turn. This is nothing new to me.

Turn Anarch: The Paladin may turn outsiders with the chaotic subtype as he would normally turn undead. Okay.

Turn Mutant: The Paladin may turn evil aligned aberrations as he would normally turn undead. More extra turning types. Whatever. You can get whatever kind of turning you want as a Cleric too.

However, unlike a cleric, you aren't DIFFERENTIATED from other paladins by what you turn. "I eventually turn everything" is just something paladins do in your world. They are turning machines and are all about optimizing turning and holding up a holy symbol and making things run away by stacking all the iffy +4 effective turning levels items and such. It works on practically everything they fight with your paladin, so there's no downside to the "Hey, I can turn 40 HD easy" builds. Why bother stabbing it or defending allies from it with your shield or other paladinly things? Whatever it is, hold up your holy symbol.

Holy Sacrifice: When the Sacrifice duration expires and the Paladin collapses, the fires surrounding him explode, washing over everything in the vicinity. Everything in a 10' radius is affected as if by a Holy Word or Dictum spell (Paladin's choice) cast at the Paladin's HD. The Paladin may end his Sacrifice prematurely in order to enjoy this effect; if he does so, the radius increases by 10' for every round he had remaining. So, kinda like the paladin spell in the Spell Compendium that makes you explode when you get knocked out, except more powerful. Still, the sacrifice stuff has an air of epic that you didn't give to Smite. Or it would if it wasn't what your paladin would do once every day. Every day. With no real meaningful risks of consequences backfiring (unlike the Delay Death combo I mentioned, where the enemy could definitely turn that around on you if they played their cards right).

Destroy the Destroyer: The Paladin's bonus to attack and damage against evil creatures due to Holy Strike and Holy Smite is doubled when the creature in question is chaotic evil. In addition, the paladin's charisma modifier is doubled for the purposes of turning checks & turning damage against chaotic evil creatures. Whee, more damage... why do I need so much more damage? Why do you think more damage will fix the Paladin? I don't want more damage. Paladins actually aren't that bad in that department anyways. They need a better toolbox.

Turn Evil: The Paladin may turn any evil aligned creature as he would turn undead. Ugh. Well, you certainly like the turning mechanic. Lots of other people don't, because it's kind a non sequitor with the rest of the game. And some might not like the concept of having "Turn Everyone" as a standby feature (it certainly doesn't fit in settings like, say, Eberron). But hey, whatever. Flavor's up to you. Of course, you could make an evil human flee like they were turned when you were level 1 as a cleric if you wanted this flavor.

Holy Surge: In times of dire need, the paladin expels all his divine power in one surge: as a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the paladin may cast both a miracle and wish spell with no xp cost. The paladin immediately "falls" as a part of this action: the atonement spell cast uses half the xp that would have been spent on the wish & miracle spell.
A paladin will often use this ability in times of dire need, such as when presented a scenario where, whatever the choice, he will fall. This is actually cool, and definitely has potential for an epic scene. Still doesn't contribute to baseline functionality; the only thing you've really done in that department is improve the spell list (and keep adding more and more damage onto the Paladin for some reason).

Ineffable Justiciar: As Justiciar, but permanent. The bonuses presented from destroy the destroyer now extend to all actually evil creatures (not including creatures considered evil under Ineffable Justiciar). Okay, fine. Not a big deal unless you were fighting a larger number of high hp neutral people vulnerable to your forms of attack than Justiciar could handle already as a regular thing.

Special Abilities:
Let's see what these do...

[spoiler]
Exalted Paladin:
The paladin instantly gains a bonus exalted feat. Whoo, bonus feats from the Book of Vile Good. I mean, if you decide you don't want your knight in shining armor look and would rather switch out as an impoverished Saint in rags that deflect blows.

Special Mount:
The paladin adds phantom steed to his spell list. Instead of using the statistics for the phantom steed in the spell description, the paladin uses the statistics of a heavy warhorse or light warhorse (or war pony or riding dog, if a small sized paladin), modified as so. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#thePaladinsMount) It gains all of the abilities from water walk on, but keeps its normal speed. Phantom Steed is good times. This is nice.

Defender:
All allies within a 30 ft. radius of the paladin gain a divine bonus to saving throws equal to 1/2 his charisma modifier. Cool! I can inspire my allies and support their saves. Something other than hitting evil for more damage or turning everything in sight.

Crusading Defender:
Requires Defender
The paladin and all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain DR/Good or Lawful equal to the paladin's charisma modifier. Why is the Paladin giving out Demon DR? This makes no sense in SO many ways!!

Are your paladins demons in disguise? What's going on? I have no idea, but that's messed up.

Healing Defender:
Requires Defender
The Paladin & all allies within a 30 ft. radius gain fast healing equal to the paladin's charisma modifier. Meh.

Defending Daeva:
Requires Crusading Defender
The paladin gains the effects of a permanent magic circle against evil out to 30' as a supernatural ability. A paladin with Knight Templar also gains the effects of a magic circle against chaos. This ability is very powerful. Unless you've found some other way to get permanent MCaE (there are a few), you always want to take this ability. All the time.

Crusader's Mettle:
Gain an additional use per day of Swift Crusader.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack. You just got Swift Crusader all day every day with the original paladin, save for the "OMG Turning everything as a swift action is my purpose!" thing.

Still harping on that note, mind that other creature types aren't building up Turn Resistance the way undead are.

Expanded Zeal:
The paladin may add any spell from the bard or cleric spell list to his spells known of a level no higher than his current highest paladin spell known. This spell is of a level one higher than normal: for example, if a paladin of at least 6th level took heroism from the bard spell list, he would cast it as a 3rd level spell.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Each time, it applies to a different spell. Oh cool, so I can get Delay Death. But wait, one level higher? Why? I already am getting spells late because my progression only goes up to level 6. And I just gave up a special ability like "Everyone in the party gets +3 saves" or "Everyone gets Magic Circle Forever!" for this.

Knight Templar:
All chaotic creatures are considered evil for the purposes of holy strike, holy smite, turn evil, and ineffable justiciar/destroy the destroyer. The paladin gains detect chaos as well as detect evil, and projects an aura of law as well as good. Meh.

Improved Turning:
The paladin gains +1 use of turning per day, +1 to turning checks, and +1 to turning damage.
This special ability may be taken more than once. Its effects stack. Makes the turnadin more turny. I really don't like the concept of a dedicated turnadin, but that seems to be the main concept you're after.

Staggering Turn:
Requires: Improved Turning.
All creatures successfully turned have their movement speeds reduced by 10' for the duration. Meh. Also, clarify if you're reducing the base speed or what.

Improved Staggering Turn:
Requires: Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are slowed, as the spell, for the duration. You just took two specials for this. My turnadin could have gotten +2 to checks, +2 to uses, and +2 to damage.

Potent Turn:
Requires: Improved Staggering Turn
All creatures successfully turned are dazed for the duration. I get it. You think you can't run to catch up to a turned thing by the level you invested 3 specials. Or that you haven't taken any nice turning tools.

Unliving Healing:
Positive energy cast by the paladin heals good creatures regardless of their type. This effect extends to the paladin himself. Might care if your healing was worth anything. You don't even have Lay on Hands or divine health anymore.

My first impressions Conclusion:

Anyways, in all honesty, after fully reading it, I think it's kinda bad. I definitely wouldn't use it. Sorry.

This is in no way competitive with a clericadin, save for the very narrow possibility of pulling turn optimization out the wazoo and taking full advantage of the "turn everything, twice a round" side of things that seems to be the entire heart of your class (a flavor I personally can't stand. Why is the Paladin's way of dealing with everything apparently "turn it" later on?). I haven't actually run the numbers to see how feasible it is yet, though. I'm not in the habit of playing turning specialist clerics (I tend towards more paladinly ones, with swords and shining armor astride a mighty flying steed and so forth), but I know they get up in the range of turning some 40HD of undead, so I expect you'll get some hefty number, twice a round, that works on anything evil (though offhand I'm not sure how much of said turning optimization could actually be applied to your paladin, as opposed to a straight up cleric). Of course, until you actually are able to turn that thing, your stacking of special abilities is just a waste of time ("Your ability does not work on this thing. Try another castle." Kinda like the Rogue, except a lot of your abilities are "pay now for the future chance to be effective against what you can't sneak attack now!")

Seriously, pretty much all of the abilities you granted fall into one of the following categories:

1) Moar Damage! Not more ways to apply damage or more tactics or anything. Just Moar Damage When I Charge The Evil Thing!
2) Turn it! Turn it!
3) Piddly healing that's largely irrelevant when you get it, save in the sense it was relevant for the old paladin (I can use wands!). The best part is that you can have unlimited fast healing and thus heal everyone to full for free. But that's basically saying you're a more economic version of Cure Light Wounds.
4) Decent to good passive resistances (Magic Circle all day every day? That's a darned good thing) that don't require me to do anything in-game except stay in the general vicinity of the party.