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zenanarchist
2010-07-20, 10:44 PM
Winged

LA: +1


The creature sprouts wings from it's back at a span equal to the length of their natural arm length.

Gliding (Ex): A winged creature can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Winged creatures glide at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). Even if her maneuverability improves, she can't hover while gliding. A winged creature can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load. If a winged creature becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. The creature descends in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall.

Flight (Ex): When a winged creature reaches 5 Hit Dice, she becomes able to fly at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). A winged creature can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted. Winged creatures can safely fly for a number of rounds equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). They can exert themselves to fly for up to twice as long, but then they're fatigued at the end of the flight. They are likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because winged creatures can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, they can remain aloft for extended periods (even if they can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued).

When they reach 10 Hit Dice, winged creatures have enough stamina and prowess to fly for longer periods. They can fly at a speed of 60 feet (average maneuverability), and flying requires no more exertion than walking or running. A winged creature with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A winged creature can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage.

A winged creature with flight can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line.

Wing Buffet (Ex): The winged creature gains two wing attacks as secondary natural weapons (damage 1d6 for a Medium creature) and may make a special bullrush attack with a range of 25ft, +5ft per two character levels. This is a ranged attack which must be made with the winged creature's wings, and the creature does not move with his target, but otherwise functions as a normal bull rush.

Shielding Wing (Ex): The creature may encase themselves in their own wings, gaining a +4 shield bonus to AC when they take the total defence action, +1 per three character levels.

Abilities: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha

Skills: If the base creature is good-aligned their wings are white plumed feathers, granting +2 to Diplomacy. If evil they gain black leathery bat like wings that grant +2 to Intimidate. If neutral the wings are transparent and incoporeal and grant a +4 bonus to Bluff checks made to feint in combat.

Special:

Feat
Pocket Wings:

The space in the creatures wings span allows it's owner to store items in an extra dimensional space. Retrieving things from this space is a swift action if the wings are unfurled and a full round action if not. This space allows eighty lbs of extra material to be stored.

Lyndworm
2010-07-20, 11:48 PM
This looks interesting, but it's very powerful for LA +1. You may want to look at the Winged template from Savage Species for comparison.

Temotei
2010-07-20, 11:50 PM
Winged

LA: +1

I sent you the gist of the mechanics of the existing winged template in the out-of-character thread, for reference.


The creature sprouts wings from it's back at a span equal to the length of their natural arm length. They gain a Fly speed at 60ft, with perfect maneuverability.

So far, you've got +10 feet of speed and possibly better maneuverability (no restrictions based on Dexterity) than the average winged creature.


Swoop Attack:

The creature must move at least 10 ft before and after this attack, they now make one highest BAB attack with a natural or manufactured weapon and gain double damage on that attack.

I see a charger build dying to get this for highest damage ever.

Forcing someone to move before and after an attack is kind of weird. Make it like skirmish, requiring 10 feet of movement before only, for simplicity's sake.


Wing Buffet

The creature may hover and flap it's wings creating a violent gust of wind that damages any creatures within 20 ft (1d6 damage) and pushes them back 15ft from their current location directly away from the creature creating the gust.

Pitiful damage, but the pushing back may be useful for provoking attacks of opportunity with allies or shoving opponents off cliffs.


Shielding Wing

The creature may encase themselves in their own wings. This grants them +4 natural armour bonus but they may not take any other actions. This may be used with any other defensive class features and stacks with natural armour from other sources.

Take out the "class" part of this, and it's better. A +4 bonus isn't that high, though. Forgoing a whole round's actions for +4 AC will be a rare occurrence. I'd add in damage reduction of some type, at least.


If a creature is good aligned their wings are white plumed feathers, granting them +1 to charisma and +2 to Diplomacy.

If the creature is evil aligned they gain black leathery wings that grant +1 to Strength and +2 to Intimidate.

If the creature is neutral the wings are transparent and incoporeal and grant +1 to Dexterity, they may also be retracted as a full round action and grant +2 to Disguise.

Those alignments don't need to be italicized. Make the ability bonuses +2.

I don't like the division in mechanics among alignments. Make the mechanics the same. Fluff can be different, but it's kind of lame when you want to make a neutral, strong, loud character and you're forced into a more sneaky role because of a template. True, you don't have to take the template...but what if you want to?

Eh. It seems fair for LA +1, otherwise, methinks.

zenanarchist
2010-07-20, 11:59 PM
Fair calls guys.

Implementing.

Lynd, I saw it when Tem posted it to me. It was blergh. lol. Compared to some other +1 LA out there you're not getting much for it.

Temotei
2010-07-21, 12:04 AM
Fair calls guys.

Implementing.

Lynd, I saw it when Tem posted it to me. It was blergh. lol. Compared to some other +1 LA out there you're not getting much for it.

A fly speed is pretty great. :smallamused:

Still, I'd say yours is more on the top end of +1 less than the lower end of +2.

If you're worried about balance (I'm not, really.), take away the ability score and skill bonuses.

zenanarchist
2010-07-21, 12:08 AM
A fly speed is pretty great. :smallamused:

Still, I'd say yours is more on the top end of +1 less than the lower end of +2.

If you're worried about balance (I'm not, really.), take away the ability score and skill bonuses.

Made speed 50ft with good only.

Gave +2 Cha the whole way through each alignment axis with only the skills changing.

Also upped the buffet distance. Wanted to keep damage low so it's non abuseable, but thought the push back action would be handy.

Jane_Smith
2010-07-21, 12:18 AM
Typically -most- (usually about 7 out of 10) templates that give flight give 60 feet, 90 feet, 120 feet, or give flight equal to x2 the base creatures movement speed (which, for most medium creatures is 60 ft.). 60 feet fly-speed isnt nessicarly more broken then 50 feet. Just my 2 cents.

zenanarchist
2010-07-21, 12:20 AM
Typically -most- (usually about 7 out of 10) templates that give flight give 60 feet, 90 feet, 120 feet, or give flight equal to x2 the base creatures movement speed (which, for most medium creatures is 60 ft.). 60 feet fly-speed isnt nessicarly more broken then 50 feet. Just my 2 cents.

Hm so you think re-up to 60ft but leave maneuv. at good? Or even bad?

Jane_Smith
2010-07-21, 12:23 AM
-shrug- Id go with average. Good seems a bit to much, bad seems a bit to clumsy/poor for the template. Angels, demons, avorals, etc, have average to good, so either is fine.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-21, 12:25 AM
I posted a modification of the winged template about a week ago.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160168

zenanarchist
2010-07-21, 12:27 AM
Jane, done.

Andion, very nice. I especially liked the sight increases. The sight issue has been overlooked a lot in winged creatures I think. Normally birds of prey have excellent vision.

That was very unique!

Jane_Smith
2010-07-21, 04:51 AM
Hmm, sortof like Eyes of the Avoral spell? 1st-level i think, +8 to spot checks for a while. Might want to keep that in mind for balance/additional traits.

Prime32
2010-07-21, 05:09 AM
If all possible alignments gain +2 Cha there's no need to list it each time. It seems odd for neutral characters to get a bonus to Disguise for things unrelated to their wings. Generally, if a character can retract their limbs they gain a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to hide them.

I'd make the shielding thing a feat of some kind. I believe that Races of the Wild has a tactical feat something like that already.

Maybe make the buffet a gust of wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm) effect with a CL equal to your character level, gained at 3rd level? (for reference, a 60ft line is equivalent to a 30ft cone, or a 20ft burst centred on you)

The swoop should be clarified to work only on a charge, like the Dive attacks which raptorans and dragonborn get. In fact, maybe you should follow their example and grant gliding at first before upgrading to flight at a certain level. With a Con penalty or something you might even be able to make it an LA +0 template.

zenanarchist
2010-07-21, 05:42 PM
If all possible alignments gain +2 Cha there's no need to list it each time. It seems odd for neutral characters to get a bonus to Disguise for things unrelated to their wings. Generally, if a character can retract their limbs they gain a +10 bonus on Disguise checks to hide them.

I'd make the shielding thing a feat of some kind. I believe that Races of the Wild has a tactical feat something like that already.

Maybe make the buffet a gust of wind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gustOfWind.htm) effect with a CL equal to your character level, gained at 3rd level? (for reference, a 60ft line is equivalent to a 30ft cone, or a 20ft burst centred on you)

The swoop should be clarified to work only on a charge, like the Dive attacks which raptorans and dragonborn get. In fact, maybe you should follow their example and grant gliding at first before upgrading to flight at a certain level. With a Con penalty or something you might even be able to make it an LA +0 template.

*whispers* If I gave them Glide that would defeat the purpose of me applying this to the character I designed it for *wink*

However, I did appreciate the Charisma comments. Neutral disguise checks....purpose? Balance. If good got something and evil got something, neutral HAD to get something *grin* Any suggestions for skill bonus?

They don't need to hide them as they're retractable at will.

Debihuman
2010-07-21, 10:32 PM
It seems absurd to me that this template allows a Tiny winged creatures to make a wing buffet on a Huge creature. Perhaps you should reword it to reflect that Winged creature can only use this on creatures that are at least 2 size categories smaller. Thus a Medium winged creature could wing buffet Tiny or Smaller creatures but wouldn't affect larger creatures.

Debby

zenanarchist
2010-07-21, 10:38 PM
It seems absurd to me that this template allows a Tiny winged creatures to make a wing buffet on a Huge creature. Perhaps you should reword it to reflect that Winged creature can only use this on creatures that are at least 2 size categories smaller. Thus a Medium winged creature could wing buffet Tiny or Smaller creatures but wouldn't affect larger creatures.

Debby

Awesome call Debby.

Fixing now.

Mangles
2010-07-21, 11:18 PM
This does make for an overpowered level 2 character, but an underpowered level 20. I think its well balanced and thought out, although it is much easier than most ways of obtaining wings

zenanarchist
2010-07-21, 11:21 PM
This does make for an overpowered level 2 character, but an underpowered level 20. I think its well balanced and thought out, although it is much easier than most ways of obtaining wings

How so good sir?

Tis meant to be a template, I figure with LA buy off this should sit quite nicely the whole way through. I did consider removing the wing buffet altogether...

Trying to find a way to get the LA down to +0

Lyndworm
2010-07-22, 01:54 AM
Trying to find a way to get the LA down to +0
I don't think you're going to be able to do this without making the flight scale to some degree, and I seem to recall saying that you didn't want to include a glide speed.

You may want to look at the Raptoran race from Races of the Wild to see what I mean.

zenanarchist
2010-07-22, 01:57 AM
I don't think you're going to be able to do this without making the flight scale to some degree, and I seem to recall saying that you didn't want to include a glide speed.

You may want to look at the Raptoran race from Races of the Wild to see what I mean.

Link me? Remember my only books are 3.5 base books (MM,DMG, PHB)

Prime32
2010-07-22, 06:34 AM
Link me? Remember my only books are 3.5 base books (MM,DMG, PHB)
Raptorans (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1) (race)
Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) (template)

Note that both are LA +0


I'd suggest giving neutral characters a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to feint in combat, and changing Shielding Wings to a shield bonus to AC which you gain while using the total defence action. For Wing Buffet, you could just treat it as a bullrush which can be made at range - that lets it scale better and allows characters to focus on it if they want (I'd say as a Close spell, treating character level as CL - ie. 25ft +5ft per two levels). Currently the DC is too high anyway, since you normally use half your level.


EDIT: The result might be something like

Gliding (Ex): A winged creature can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Winged creatures glide at a speed equal to double their land speed (average maneuverability). Even if her maneuverability improves, she can't hover while gliding. A winged creature can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load. If a winged creature becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. The creature descends in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall.

Flight (Ex): When a winged creature reaches 5 Hit Dice, she becomes able to fly at a speed equal to double her land speed (average maneuverability). A winged creature can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted. Winged creatures can safely fly for a number of rounds equal to their Constitution modifier +3 (minimum 1 round). They can exert themselves to fly for up to twice as long, but then they're fatigued at the end of the flight. They are likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because winged creatures can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, they can remain aloft for extended periods (even if they can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued).

When they reach 10 Hit Dice, winged creatures have enough stamina and prowess to fly for longer periods. They can fly at a speed equal to double their land speed (average maneuverability), and flying requires no more exertion than walking or running. A winged creature with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A winged creature can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage.

A winged creature with flight can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line.

Wing Buffet (Ex): The winged creature gains two wing attacks as secondary natural weapons (damage 1d4 for a Medium creature) and may make a special bullrush attack with a range of 25ft, +5ft per two character levels. This is a ranged attack which must be made with the winged creature's wings, and the creature does not move with her target, but otherwise functions as a normal bull rush.

Shielding Wing (Ex): The creature may encase themselves in their own wings, gaining a +4 shield bonus to AC when they take the total defence action, +1 per three character levels.

Abilities: +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Cha

Skills: A winged creature's wings grant a +4 bonus to Bluff checks made to feint in combat. If the base creature is good-aligned their wings are white plumed feathers, granting +2 to Diplomacy. If evil they gain black leathery bat like wings that grant +2 to Intimidate. If neutral the wings are transparent and incoporeal and they may choose either bonus.

Level Adjustment: +1
EDIT: Increased the flight duration to Con +3 to compensate for the Con penalty.

Jane_Smith
2010-07-22, 02:20 PM
Ever heard of the pathfinder system? They have a Fly skill all flying creatures get as a class-skill. Me thinkin? Dump all these special attacks and defenses from the template, give a +4 bonus to fly checks and then make all the special attacks/defenses like... feats. Like Flyby Attack, etc? Well, suppose you can make them feats in 3.5, to. Doesnt really matter, i just dont see any flying creature with an ounce of sanity using their -typically- fragile wings to block attacks, etc.

zenanarchist
2010-07-22, 05:17 PM
Raptorans (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1) (race)
Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) (template)

Note that both are LA +0


I'd suggest giving neutral characters a +4 bonus on Bluff checks made to feint in combat, and changing Shielding Wings to a shield bonus to AC which you gain while using the total defence action. For Wing Buffet, you could just treat it as a bullrush which can be made at range - that lets it scale better and allows characters to focus on it if they want (I'd say as a Close spell, treating character level as CL - ie. 25ft +5ft per two levels). Currently the DC is too high anyway, since you normally use half your level.


EDIT: The result might be something like

I liked that so much that I might actually use it word for word. I suppose scaling it would please a lot of DM's and make it more balanced. Well done, you got your way good sir.


Ever heard of the pathfinder system? They have a Fly skill all flying creatures get as a class-skill. Me thinkin? Dump all these special attacks and defenses from the template, give a +4 bonus to fly checks and then make all the special attacks/defenses like... feats. Like Flyby Attack, etc? Well, suppose you can make them feats in 3.5, to. Doesnt really matter, i just dont see any flying creature with an ounce of sanity using their -typically- fragile wings to block attacks, etc.

Ahhh indeed, except when I designed this template it was for a character of my own (a warrior), thus I'm considering the wings to be feathery, but when they take the total defense action (previously just defending) their wings take on a metallic quality and deflect attacks.

Much sexier, good flavour and fits the character I designed it for.

Jane_Smith
2010-07-22, 09:00 PM
>.>.... thats a transmutation effect. why are you making these wings magical?

Andion Isurand
2010-07-22, 09:05 PM
One of my favorite set of wings...

...are the shadowy extradimensional wings of the LN Thaerestian arcane angels in Book of Eldritch Might II... they use them as a storage space for their spellbooks and scrolls and such.

zenanarchist
2010-07-22, 09:06 PM
>.>.... thats a transmutation effect. why are you making these wings magical?

Well the short arrogant answer is....Because I can? lol.

It's a template, it's allowed to be magical :-P

But it could just be that the wings are always slightly metallic despite being feathery/batlike. I can re-fluff as needed tee hee.

zenanarchist
2010-07-22, 09:07 PM
One of my favorite set of wings...

...are the shadowy extradimensional wings of the LN Thaerestian arcane angels in Book of Eldritch Might II... they use them as a storage space for their spellbooks and scrolls and such.

.....Dear gods that's sexy. I may just add that. An extra 50Ibs carring space. Hmmm me thinks re-fluff is definitely needed.

Prime32
2010-07-23, 05:47 AM
.....Dear gods that's sexy. I may just add that. An extra 50Ibs carring space. Hmmm me thinks re-fluff is definitely needed.Make that a feat, I'd say.

Also you added the scaling flight without removing the stuff about gaining a 60ft fly speed. :smalltongue: I made some edits to the template in my earlier post.

zenanarchist
2010-07-23, 06:19 PM
Make that a feat, I'd say.

Also you added the scaling flight without removing the stuff about gaining a 60ft fly speed. :smalltongue: I made some edits to the template in my earlier post.

Almost done. Jane passed me some excellent traits I'm just trying to figure out how to add them without upping the LA

Jane_Smith
2010-07-23, 06:56 PM
I still think you should make all these odd abilities like the steel-wing defense, wind gust, and the 'twilight storage wings' all feats for this template, just like flyby attack, hover, etc work. This way any flying creature that meets the requirements can take it, rather then just needing -this- exact template. This will also put less stress on your templates LA.

zenanarchist
2010-07-23, 08:00 PM
I still think you should make all these odd abilities like the steel-wing defense, wind gust, and the 'twilight storage wings' all feats for this template, just like flyby attack, hover, etc work. This way any flying creature that meets the requirements can take it, rather then just needing -this- exact template. This will also put less stress on your templates LA.

Agreed. However then the template steals from the classes list of feats. How would I overcome that?