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Lev
2010-07-23, 07:27 PM
IN PROGRESS



Flow Dancer

http://www.laurascarborough.com/images/Laura%20PICS/sparkle.jpg

From all corners of the world the art of object manipulation has taken many forms, from the simple juggling in the times of the ancient desert kings to the intricate acrobatic and gravity defying stunts of the East, Flow dancers are a synergy of both object manipulation and dance, form and medium, artist and tool.

The flow dancer is a mastery of battle flow, weaving her weapon like a dance partner, and her environment as her canvas.

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+1|+2|+0|Graceful Movement (+1), Mesmerize, Combat Reflexes

2nd|+1|+1|+3|+0|Bonus Mastery, Bonus Stunt

3rd|+2|+2|+3|+1|Harmony, Bonus Stunt

4th|+3|+2|+4|+1|Fluid Movement (10ft), Graceful Movement (+2)

5th|+3|+3|+4|+1|Fire Performance, Bonus Stunt

6th|+4|+3|+5|+2|Bonus Mastery, Battleflow Dance

7th|+5|+3|+5|+2|Graceful Movement (+3), Bonus Stunt

8th|+6/+1|+4|+6|+2|Fluid Movement (15ft), Bonus Stunt

9th|+6/+1|+4|+6|+3|Mystic Path, Bonus Stunt

10th|+7/+2|+5|+7|+3|Bonus Mastery, Graceful Movement (+4)

11th|+8/+3|+5|+7|+3|Bonus Stunt

12th|+9/+4|+6|+8|+4|Bonus Stunt

13th|+9/+4|+6|+8|+4|Graceful Movement (+5)

14th|+10/+5|+6|+9|+4|Bonus Mastery, Bonus Stunt

15th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+9|+5|Fluid Movement (20ft)

16th|+12/+7/+2|+7|+10|+5|Graceful Movement (+6)

17th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+10|+5|Bonus Stunt

18th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+11|+6|Bonus Mastery

19th|+14/+9/+4|+8|+11|+6|Graceful Movement (+7), Bonus Stunt

20th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+12|+6|Mystic Path Mastery

[/table]

Alignment: Non-Lawful
Hit Die: 1d8

Proficiencies:
Flow Dancers have Light Armor Proficiency and no shield proficiency.
Flow Dancers can be proficient in the following: Unarmed, Dagger, Club, Rapier, Straightsword, or Flail granted that the flail is one size category smaller than yours, which is considered a light weapon.

Class Skills:
The flow dancer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (None), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (6 + Int modifier) Χ 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 6 + Int modifier

Masteries
Dual 9 Section Whip and Double Meteor
You gain proficiency with all single handed chain weapons and gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat. You gain a +1 to attack roll when using double meteor hammer.

Staff and Doublestaff
You gain proficiency with all lengths of staffs and gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat, you gain +1 to attack rolls when using a single staff, you can also treat a "doublestaff" as a light weapon in terms of dual wielding it.

Hoop and Doublehoop
You gain proficiency with hoop weapons and gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat. When not two weapon fighting you gain +1 to attack roll with hoops.

Fans and Claws
You gain proficiency with metal fans and metal claw weapons, you gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat.

Clubs and Knives
You gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat and consider small clubs and knives to be light weapons. You gain proficiency with Clubs and Knives.

Sword and Sai
You gain the Two Weapon Fighting feat and consider single handed swords as light weapons. You gain proficiency with 1 handed Swords and Sai.

Whip and Chain
You gain proficiency with spiked chain and whip and gain +1 to attack rolls with them.

Meteor Hammer and Rope Dart
You gain proficiency with Meteor Hammer and Rope Dart weapons and gain +1 to attack rolls with them.

Acrobatics
You can “Take 10” on the following checks at any time:
Jump, Perform (dance), & Tumble. You gain +2 to these skills.

Aerial
You gain Use Rope skill as a class skill regardless of class and can take 10 when using ropes, silks, or any similar material up to drapes or curtains still hanging on the wall.
Make a DC15 Use Rope check as a full round action, if you succeed you can perform a Battleflow Dance vertically downward the next round, you need neither hand to be free during your battleflow dance and can drop 5' vertically per attack without using your hands to continue the flow, you cannot use 2 handed weapons when using Battleflow Dance in this way.

Unarmed
You gain Improved unarmed strike and your unarmed strike damage die improves by 1 size category. You gain +2 to escape artist checks.

Fire
This mastery gives you Perform [Fire] as a class skill regardless of your class, any self induced hazards with using any fire tool are reduced by 75%. You gain the ability to use a 10GP flask of special fuel and a held fire source to project a 10'x5' cone of fire that does 1d6/4HD plus another 1d6 for every size modifier you are above medium and enemies are lit "on fire" unless they succeed a DC12 reflex save. The downside is that fire breathing is dangerous (danger is 20% chance of failure untrained, 5% chance of failure with Fire Performance class skill (roll a d20, 1 is fumble), and having fire mastery allows you to roll 1d4 when you fumble, another 1 indicates failure. Setting yourself on fire this way deals 2d6 damage (since it counts as a critical) and puts you "on fire" as described in the DMG, if it deals 12 damage to you then you also can contract ARDS (chemical pneumonia) disease.
ARDS - Inhaled - DC16 Fort - Initial 1d4 con 1d4 dex, Secondary 1d4STR 1d4DEX 1d4CON 1d4CHA // Initial damage after 6 hours, secondary damage after 24 hours. Every day player must make the fortitude save or take ability damage, if that fails then a long term heal check (DC12 for the first day, DC8 for following days) can prevent the character from hitting 0 Con at which point the character will have 1 Con.

Fire mastery also grants +1 saves against fire and fire effects, 1 fire resistance and +1 to knowledge checks about fire.

Throwing
You gain proficiency with all light throwing weapons and gain Throwing Finesse as a bonus feat.
Stunts

General

Aimed Pass
Requires: Mastery [Throw], 4 Ranks Sleight of Hand
Double your thrown weapon range increments.
As a standard action you can throw an object up to 10lbs or half your light load, whichever is smaller as a standard action, you can throw it up to 60' but every 20' away it adds -4 to your attack roll. To toss it to a player you have to make a ranged melee attack roll vs AC8, if you succeed the object is tossed to another player, the player than may catch it with a DC8 dexterity check. As long as the catcher has a free hand, this doesn't disrupt the player's actions, but throwing in this way counts as a ranged attack in terms of AoO and such.

Juggle
Requires: Mastery [Throw], +2 BAB
As a standard action you may start a juggle, you may use up to 3 objects that are 1/10th your light load each plus an additional object for every 4 levels in Flow Dancer you have. When juggling you have no more than 2 objects in your hands at any time and the rest are in free-fall, you cannot move apart from a 5' step but if you are forced to take the move in an action like a bull rush or other such pushes your juggle fails and all the objects apart from 2 are dropped. You can toss the objects up to 5' up in the air during a juggle or you may choose 10' and take a -2 in spot checks or 15' and take a -4 in spot checks or 20'+ and take a -8 in spot checks. If you are attacked during a juggle you must make a concentration check of 8+damage taken or fail the juggle and all objects except 2 are dropped.
Catching and throwing a juggled object in this way occupies both your hands but you can still take swift actions that require hands, if you are juggling 2 less objects than your potential you can also take attacks of opportunity and either a single move action or a single standard action.
Catching and throwing a juggled object does not take up actions, so "drawing" a juggled weapon counts as the weapon already being drawn, dropping a juggled object does not directly fail the juggle so dropping a caught item can be done as a free action as well.
As a full round action you can catch all juggled objects split evenly in both hands if reasonable.

Daggerwheel Shot
Requires: Mastery [Throw], +4 BAB
You gain Ranged Pin and Ranged Disarm as bonus feats when using 1 handed light knives or daggers. You gain +1 to attack rolls made with daggers and knives. 1/day when you would have hit an ally with your dagger you can choose to reroll the attack, if it no longer beats the AC it misses.

Steady Aim
Requires: Mastery [Throw], +2BAB
You may take a full round action and go into a Steady Aim Stance, this doubles your dexterity bonus for throwing until the end of your next turn (maximum +3).

Throw Tool
Requires: Mastery [Throw], +6BAB
You can choose to throw an object as a standard action, if the tool does not require any other action than you could imagine throwing it would do you can use a throwing attack to do the job you could normally only do with a hand.
For example, a nail sticking out of a roof could be hammered in place by throwing a hammer a few times, or you could throw a bolas to hook around a lever and pull it down, or attach a string of self turning to a key and throw it into a key hole.

When using an attack in this way you take penalties if the object is small, a diminutive object takes a -5 to attack rolls and a fine object takes -8



Divine

Lifting Current
Requires: Divine Path, Mastery [Acrobatics]
Your body feels light and airy, and you feel you could be twisted and pulled by the slightest breeze, the divine flow opens up to you.
1/day/3lvl Swift Action you gain slowfall (granted you use this before you fall) and all air movement effects are doubled. You fall as slow as 5' every 3 rounds as long as you move at least 15', if you move 10' you fall 5' every 2 rounds, moving 5' you move 5' every 1 round, and stationary you move 10' a round maximum.
During a Battleflow Dance you can "direct" the current that suspends you, allowing you to move in mid-air flawlessly, this is not flight so it does not grant a fly speed, this behaves more like walking on the air although legs are not strictly needed. You can still make attacks with Battleflow Dance as if you were on the ground.
This effect lasts until the start of your next turn.

Arcane

Magic Bullseye
Requires: Arcane Path, Mastery [Throw]
3/day
You can use a move action to enchant an object, anything that object hits releases it's charge and a faint Magic Bullseye symbol appears where the object hit. Any attacks within 5' of the magic bullseye feel a slight magnetism towards it, all attacks targeting the bullseye get +2 to attack rolls, if the original attack was a critical then when targeting the bullseye your critical threat range improves by 1.

Flowering Door
Requires: Arcane Path, Mastery [9s Whip] or [Hoop] or [Staff] or [Rope Dart]
1/day Full Round Action
Your flow weapon leaves an elongated blur and creates concentric circles in the air in certain points of alignment. Upon completion the shape solidifies, hums loudly and creates a solid Flowering Door.

This door is suspended in the air in any direction you wish (though both sides are the same effect) that is directly beside you and lasts until the beginning of your next turn. After creating a flowering door you may take a 5' step to enter it and a free jump action if that's required, you cannot make a flowering door if you are transversing as the blur hovers in the air and would not make a complete circle if you were for instance falling or in a caravan or on a boat.
Any creature can enter the door, but the door is suspended 1-2' off the ground and is only 5' in diameter and since the borders are made of force if the user cannot fit into that it cannot use the portal.

The other side of the door is anywhere inside of a 400' radius of the space where you created the door.

If there is no free space on the exit point of the door (100' radius of the door) then all creatures exiting the door take 2d6 damage and are shunted to an area within 1000', if that isn't possible they are ejected back through the flowering door and take 4d6 damage.

Fire Wire
Requires: Arcane Path, Mastery [Fire]
5/Day Move Action
Enchant your flow weapon instead of attacking to release a rain of glowing needles and sparks around you. Next time you attack (charge fades in 10 rounds) instead of attacking you may create two 5' x 15' cones of sparks in opposite directions from you dealing 2d4+1d4/2levels of fire damage, creatures caught in the effect are are dazzled.

Consume
Requires: Arcane Path, Mastery [Fire]
This stunt has 2 effects, at any time you can make a sleight of hand check (DC 15) to hide any object that will fit into your mouth or throat and have it disappear, you can store 1 object in this way, make another DC15 sleight of hand check to retrieve it. When it's inside of you it temporarily melds into you similar to a Wildshape transformation, and re-appears when you go to retrieve it. Retrieving it opens up the same weaknesses of casting, you create and AoO and have to save vs concentration. If you fail either your initial/secondary sleight of hand check or your concentration check if bothered then you either take critical damage from the object if it's a weapon or start to choke (DC 8+ weight of the object, maximum 18).

1/day When you are holding a single handed single flamed object such as a torch or a flaming knife you can "block" a fire spell or effect, this neutralizes up to 3 fire damage/level of flowdancer, this increases to 5 fire damage/level at level 15. This fire damage is sucked into the flame you are holding (not changing the brightness and you may then extinguish the flame to dissipate the contained fire energy, alternatively you have 2 additional options. If you hit someone with the flame they take 1 extra fire damage per damage die of fire it absorbed, releasing it in an explosion OR you can extinguish the fire in your mouth (DC12 Perform [Fire]) and gain 1 temporary HP per damage die you absorbed. This temporary HP cannot be added once you have 10HP in your temp pool.

Ascetic

Hands Brush Air
Requires: Ascetic Path, Mastery [Throw], Unarmed Proficiency
You can take 10 on checks made to catch objects, and can use effects the same as snatch arrows except that the Juggle stunt does not count against the 2 hand free prerequisite. When you choose to keep an object you can immediately put it into an existing juggle.

Class Features
Mesmerize (Ex):
COMBAT FASCINATE SKILL
A Flow Dancer with 4 or more ranks in the Perform (Dance) skill can use her movements to cause one or more creatures to become mesmerized with her.
Make a perform check vs their will save, if you succeed the creature becomes mesmerized. A mesmerized creature takes -4 to all visual skill checks, -2 to reflex saves, has -2 initiative and is mildly distracted in terms of concentration checks. On the second round that a creature is mesmerized it loses -2 dexterity bonus (if it has one) to AC, on the third round it is considered flat footed.
This ability can be used in combat though the Flow Dancer takes -8 to perform checks made in this way, additionally creatures more than 30' away have a +2 to will saves, 60'+ have a +4 and 90'+ cannot be effected unless you are huge size or more, in which case they gain +6.
For every three levels a Flow Dancer attains beyond 1st, she can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.

Failing this check raises the DC of all performance based skill checks by 2 to everyone who sees you within 90', this effect stacks.

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Graceful Movement (Ex):
SKILL BONUS A flow dancer gains a bonus to all movement and body related checks as long as that bonus does not exceed her dexterity modifier. The effected skills are: Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Perform, Ride, Slight of Hand, Survival (For terrain purposes), Swim, Tumble, Use Rope (For movement purposes)

REFLEX BONUS A Flow Dancer's Graceful Movement also provides a bonus to Reflex saves equal to her Charisma modifier.

AC BONUS A Flow Dancer gains additional AC equal to her Graceful Movement bonus as long as it doesn't exceed her Charisma modifier and that she isn't carrying anything more than a light load, wearing anything heavier than light armor or any armor that incurs a armor check penalty. If her armor does have an armor check penalty then she loses Graceful Movement AC equal to the ACP of that armor.

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Combat Reflexes (Feat):
Bonus Feat
You gain Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat.

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Fluid Movement (Ex):
SPEED/SLOWFALL BONUS At level 4 a flow dancer learns to be so efficient in movement that she is able to move faster than normal while expending the same amount of effort. You gain +10ft to your base land speed and during a tumble check to reduce damage from falls you reduce an extra 10ft. Both these effects increase by 5ft at level 8 and 15.

FAST ACROBATICS BONUS
At level 8 you also gain the ability to use your fluid movement technique with Balance, Climb and Tumble skills:
You may make Balance checks while moving at
normal speed without taking a –5 penalty.
You may make Climb checks to move at half speed
without taking a –5 penalty.
You may make Tumble checks while moving at
normal speed without taking a –10 penalty.

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Battleflow Dance, 1/day. (Ex):
Melee Attack Pattern
You can make a Full Round Attack with a Flowdance Weapon and still move up to your movement.
Between each attack, you must move at least 5’ (but not back to the square you were just in). You gain +1 bonus to your attack & damage rolls. The Battleflow Dance lasts 1 round per 2 ranks in Perform (dance). You are still susceptible to Attacks of Opportunity while moving, but you are allowed to use Tumble. You may combine Bardic music with your Battleflow Dance, but not Rage / Frenzy. You cannot have on more than Light armor. At the end of
your Battleflow Dance you must make a Fortitude Save (8 + rounds spent in the Battleflow Dance) failure means you become Fatigued for the duration of the encounter.

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Harmony
Conditional Attack Bonus
Whenever clear music is playing the Flow Dancer gains +2 to perform checks, whenever Bardic Music is playing you gain +1 to attack rolls and gain +2 to concentration checks.

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Fire Performance
Weapon Preparation
When you have this ability you are always assumed to have bought at least 1GP worth of flammable fluid (cooking oil, burning sap, firewater, ect) and have modified and upkept your mastered weapons to have fire resistant wicks on them (dense or alchemical fabric), as a standard action you may prepare your wicks and as a move action set them on fire.
Burning weapons take no damage and have 3 effects which last 10 rounds each:
Stage 1) You cast bright light for 30' and shadowy light for 20' after that, foes hit by your weapon take 1 fire damage, and you also gain +1 to attack rolls when in the dark.
Stage 2) You cast bright light for 15' and shadowy light for 10', foes with exposed skin hit by your weapon take 1 heat damage (hot metal, not fire).
Stage 3) You cast shadowy illumination for 10', foes with exposed skin hit by your weapon take 1 heat damage (hot metal, not fire).
If you choose to not move the weapon at all (or very slowly, but not attack) the light increments increase by 25% in distance.

When using Fire Performance you do not have the risk of lighting yourself on fire or the time usages, and the effects of the fire are less drastic.
This bonus also counts towards the Fire Mastery in terms of limiting the danger of using it's effects.

Using Fire Tools: Due to the sound and light produced by a flaming weapon or performance tool are partly disabled, they take -4 to listen and -2 to spot checks when using a fire tool, if it's shadowy illumination already then they take -4 and if it's dark they take -6 to spot checks. Fire Performance class feature limits the effects down to -2//-2 when the tool is being used, or -0//-0 when it's held still. Once the fire goes out, the metal is still very hot and thus a cool down time of 10 rounds comes into play. Re-fueling before that time may be extremely dangerous and could spit off toxic vapors or cause scalding burns.

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Mystic Path
Class Options
At level 9 a flow dancer has 3 different paths it can choose from, these paths are:

The Divine Path
Those dancers who follow the divine path give up their mortal understandings and expressions to be guided by the forces above, they become an embodiment of flow uninhibited by their senses or confusions and through their flow find a connection to the other worlds.

Benefit: Those who follow the divine path can then gain stunts from the Divine Stunt list.

The Weave
Those who study the patterns of the flow finally understand that the weave itself is a pattern, and through that can manipulate the weave through becoming a physical representation of the changes they wish to invoke.

Benefit: Those who follow The Weave can then gain stunts from the Arcane Stunt list.

The Dancer Ascetic
Those who seek perfection in their flow unlock understanding of their own perfect truths, boundless insight exists within everyone as long as they know how to tap into it.
Those who choose the Dancer Ascetic path give up the life of whimsy to perfect their art and transcend what is believed physically possible.

Benefit: Those who follow The Dancer Ascetic path can then gain stunts from the Ascetic Stunt list and gain 2 bonus feats.

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Mystic Path Mastery
Bonus Paths
At level 20 you gain access to the remaining Mystic Paths and gain 2 extra bonus stunts.

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Gallery


Picture Gallery

Flowering Door (Arcane Stunt)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/4/6060913_0f501d1cb4.jpg

Tira, Human Flowdancer
http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/sc_ti.jpg

Fire Wire (Arcane Stunt)
http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/185/f/5/Happy_4th_of_July_by_MattTheSamurai.gif

Video Gallery

Flow Sword-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lueuQu62nRQ

Flow 9 Section Whip (AKA Poi), Staff and Double Staff-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uNyVZxxf7Y

Flow Double Meteor Hammer-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuUGR8IHJro

Flow Meteor Hammer-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZMM0ESgXrA

Flow Rope Dart-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCunOyVgy_Y


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Personal Inspiration Background

I've been a circus performer, dancer and fire performer professionally for a few years now, I've seen masses of people go through, learn, master different flow arts, different fire tools, forms of juggling and weaponry, martial arts, parkour and all that jazz in real life and I've been a community organizer through this, watching from the top.

Personally I just wanted a DnD class that really concentrated more on the concept of actually dancing in combat rather than the whole "parkour tricking into a square then swing wildly" because I just couldn't see the dancing aspect take form in any of the classes already available. Battledancer really was more like a rogue ranger than anything else, dervish was close but the concept of using scimitars to fight in dervish turning (I've turned with real dervishes and helped host Sufi performances) was almost distasteful as dervish turning would actually have to be more of a divine class than anything else, it would have to be, you can't see when you're that dizzy.

Really this class is meant to be a combination of things, it's main perks being grace, weapon skill, weapon styling, OPTIONS!, being able to make perform checks during combat validly, being both a social and skillful character and bringing together DnD and the community I love into one form. Enjoy!

Hamswordsman
2010-07-23, 08:00 PM
I like the idea of a graceful fighter but it just does not stand out and make it different. Cant really describe it.
Anyways, I think you might want to expand the idea of the battle flow dance cause that is what really caught my eye on how to make it "different" but the current one I feel is rather weak. I think you should make different dances you can specialize in. For example Dance A can turn opponents or Dance B can help your ability to dodge. Some different effects are always fun.

Just wondering, what are her weapon and armor proficiencies?

Lev
2010-07-23, 08:29 PM
I like the idea of a graceful fighter but it just does not stand out and make it different. Cant really describe it.
Anyways, I think you might want to expand the idea of the battle flow dance cause that is what really caught my eye on how to make it "different" but the current one I feel is rather weak. I think you should make different dances you can specialize in. For example Dance A can turn opponents or Dance B can help your ability to dodge. Some different effects are always fun.

Just wondering, what are her weapon and armor proficiencies?

Light armor profic, thanks!

No weapon profics at all, the standard penalty applies with all weapons except those profics gained through masteries =]

Different abilities grow out of the different masteries as you progress! I'm planning to either give the FD something called Mastery Points (MP) or Mastery Feats or something to that effect, so you can gain something like a maneuver depending on what you are mastering, either that or have sort of a progressive ladder system where each level you can advance one masteries level to unlock different abilities, or just leave it open and let players spend bonus feats on them like the dual weapon feats in Complete Warrior like [High Sword Low Axe]. Regardless, if they are left as feats they will be open and probably simplified, if they are class features they will probably require a bit of skill checking somewhat like skill tricks.

If you don't understand the gap yet, then let me get you a more graphic example:

These are graceful fighters:
http://www.mandypatinkin.net/PB/inigo4.jpeg

This is a Flow Dancer:
http://www.siliconera.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/sc_ti.jpg

More examples?

Flow Sword:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lueuQu62nRQ

Flow 9 Section Whip (AKA Poi), Staff and Double Staff
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uNyVZxxf7Y

Flow Double Meteor Hammer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuUGR8IHJro

Flow Meteor Hammer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZMM0ESgXrA

Flow Rope Dart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCunOyVgy_Y



A huge difference is that half the flow dancer weapons are designed to deal real damage and half are designed to be enchanted later on, and I'll balance out which get nice melee type effects and which are more like a touch attack.

Hamswordsman
2010-07-23, 09:17 PM
That is good and now I definitely feel that it is a much more dynamic character. Really interested to see what the maneuvers will be like. Like the idea of fire performance.

I think the progressive system for the maneuvers is better because it makes more sense but make it so they can master roughly two and not just concentrate on one cause variation is always fun.


Just a few more questions:

Does setting up the fire performance trigger attacks of opportunity? (I assume it does but not specifically mentioned).

Do you start out with a mastery? Doesn't say so so I assumed you don't but then the wording of "bonus" mastery definitely changed my previous thought as well as the fact that there are no proficiencies. Can you just clear that up a bit?

Lev
2010-07-23, 10:21 PM
You do not start off with a mastery, the idea is that a level 1 character essentially either has a level before it to give it the profics or you go on an adventure without having the profics until you hit level 2, this limits splashing to the more exploitable masteries.

Applying fuel is exactly the same rules as applying poison, in later levels you gain self-lighting tools.

Hamswordsman
2010-07-24, 12:30 AM
Without any proficiencies till level 2 you would have an absolute hellish time doing anything. I think she should get at least simple weapon proficiency. Just kind of annoying playing a level not being able to do anything.

For the flavor behind this, I was thinking she would kind of be like a trainee at level 1 and can use any simple weapons kind of to try and figure out what weapon "calls to her". When she levels her experimenting is over and now she must choose a specialty to focus in but still knows the basics of a simple weapon.

As for the picture examples in a previous post, now I know more of what you want. I was thinking he was a changed around bard but the pictures help me figure it out.

Lev
2010-07-24, 03:50 AM
Without any proficiencies till level 2 you would have an absolute hellish time doing anything. I think she should get at least simple weapon proficiency. Just kind of annoying playing a level not being able to do anything.

For the flavor behind this, I was thinking she would kind of be like a trainee at level 1 and can use any simple weapons kind of to try and figure out what weapon "calls to her". When she levels her experimenting is over and now she must choose a specialty to focus in but still knows the basics of a simple weapon.

As for the picture examples in a previous post, now I know more of what you want. I was thinking he was a changed around bard but the pictures help me figure it out.
Hellish hmm? Well any DM which forces blunt and combat heavy scenarios will give you a profic on the spot right?

Well, a simple weapon profic would encourage them to start regular weapon training with regular weapons rather than just mastering their mediums. So it would be easier, but the easier context really wouldn't fit the context of "leveling up" really, but I'm willing to swing it either way.

That being said, would a trainee be proficient with a weapon before she trains with it? The difference here really is between hitting AC10 on 14 as opposed to 10 which is a 20% difference, though giving a player a 20% difference retards their options seeing as ANY player given the 20% difference will not give that up in favor of a weapon they like better unless they burn a feat or two to do so. Example: Choosing a morning star and a crossbow gets you a +4 relative to other options, you like the other options better but you can't ignore what works. //OR// You choose a net and a spiked chain, you like these options way better but since you are not proficient in anything it really doesn't matter that you don't have exotic weapon profic.


The progression system is going to be called Stunts, which will be kind of a cross between feats and skill tricks.

Innis Cabal
2010-07-24, 04:39 AM
Its generally bad design when you have to homebrew a class for it to be playable. Every class has simple weapon prof. and these guys should really not be any different. Simple weapons are just that, weapons everyone can pick up and use in a reasonable manner.

Peregrine
2010-07-24, 09:44 AM
Its generally bad design when you have to homebrew a class for it to be playable. Every class has simple weapon prof. and these guys should really not be any different. Simple weapons are just that, weapons everyone can pick up and use in a reasonable manner.

Not quite true; druids, monks and wizards aren't proficient with all simple weapons. Wizards are limited to a very small set, while druids and monks have more thematically-selected weapon proficiencies. (Thematic selection seems like a good pattern to follow for this class.)

Oh, and commoners get one single simple weapon proficiency. While that has no real bearing on this discussion, the fact that it's better than what this class gets tells me that a couple of appropriate simple weapons could and should be allowed to this class. Or better yet, a kind of "pre-mastery" at 1st level before the "bonus mastery" at 2nd level.

The lack of proficiency makes it feel like a 1st-level flow dancer has no fallback options. -4 might not sound like much, but the flow dancer is, as far as I can tell, meant to be a combat class. Your remark about DMs forcing "blunt and combat heavy scenarios" would suggest otherwise. But the flow dancer gets average BAB, Combat Reflexes, light armour proficiencies... they're not noncombatants like wizards are. They're more "semicombatants" like bards.

A -4 penalty will make the flow dancer's attacks less likely to hit than the bard's, or even a typical wizard with okay Dex and a crossbow! So players of 1st-level flow dancers will feel like they're sitting around waiting until they stop missing with all those extra AoOs they get from free Combat Reflexes. :smallwink:

To put it another way: you seem to be saying that you don't want characters taking up some other weapon before they get to their mastery, perhaps because it would seem like they're making a big shift from one weapon to another. But that would seem to me to be a less dramatic shift than the role switch from noncombatant to combatant between levels 1 and 2. And the whole problem would go away if it got some sort of proficiency foreshadowing the masteries.

On to more concrete matters... I'd suggest that your Mesmerize ability not use the term "fascinated", as that's already the name of a (rather different) condition. Your "medium" Fort save progression is also non-standard; while that's probably a conscious choice and I've seen such used before, I still personally prefer classes that follow the standard system.

Lev
2010-07-24, 01:20 PM
Not quite true; druids, monks and wizards aren't proficient with all simple weapons. Wizards are limited to a very small set, while druids and monks have more thematically-selected weapon proficiencies. (Thematic selection seems like a good pattern to follow for this class.)

Oh, and commoners get one single simple weapon proficiency. While that has no real bearing on this discussion, the fact that it's better than what this class gets tells me that a couple of appropriate simple weapons could and should be allowed to this class. Or better yet, a kind of "pre-mastery" at 1st level before the "bonus mastery" at 2nd level.

The lack of proficiency makes it feel like a 1st-level flow dancer has no fallback options. -4 might not sound like much, but the flow dancer is, as far as I can tell, meant to be a combat class. Your remark about DMs forcing "blunt and combat heavy scenarios" would suggest otherwise. But the flow dancer gets average BAB, Combat Reflexes, light armour proficiencies... they're not noncombatants like wizards are. They're more "semicombatants" like bards.

A -4 penalty will make the flow dancer's attacks less likely to hit than the bard's, or even a typical wizard with okay Dex and a crossbow! So players of 1st-level flow dancers will feel like they're sitting around waiting until they stop missing with all those extra AoOs they get from free Combat Reflexes. :smallwink:

To put it another way: you seem to be saying that you don't want characters taking up some other weapon before they get to their mastery, perhaps because it would seem like they're making a big shift from one weapon to another. But that would seem to me to be a less dramatic shift than the role switch from noncombatant to combatant between levels 1 and 2. And the whole problem would go away if it got some sort of proficiency foreshadowing the masteries.

On to more concrete matters... I'd suggest that your Mesmerize ability not use the term "fascinated", as that's already the name of a (rather different) condition. Your "medium" Fort save progression is also non-standard; while that's probably a conscious choice and I've seen such used before, I still personally prefer classes that follow the standard system.
Good points! I really had no idea commoners had any weapon proficiency, and I think they should get at least that!

The class is meant to be played somewhat like a bard/shadowdancer, in the way that it's a combat oriented character at heart but also fits quite well into social or espionage roles as the mobility quickly allows a multiclass character to take flowdancer as a replacement for thief acrobat or scout.

I'm on the fence between giving them good fort and giving them bad, the table builder had a medium fort option and that seems good until I'm convinced that it should go either way =]




If anyone wants to throw in ideas or concepts I'm 100% behind you!



Added- Tons of content, the start of stunts, refined the process, thinking about adding Perform [Object Manipulation] as a custom perform skill!